But what you are also ignoring the elephant in the room on the reasoning for making "victimless" crimes continueing to be illegal-

When ever you have unjust laws, selectively enforced, wasting of resources of law enforcement, that most poeple ignore- then you WEAKEN all rule of law. A law such as prostitution, that is "against the law because we say so, no matter what the reality" that is unjust as these laws, and really unenforcible, weaken justice, the justice system, and the rule of law itself- let us stick to the, really universal, laws we can all agree should be against the law, such as murder, kidnapping, rape, and, if those become extinct, then, perhaps, as a society, we can start to address some further explanation of what is immoral and moral between consenting adults.

Nope. I wouldn't bring my family into a slum either...Or a neighborhood with a lot of rowdy bars. Fortunately, we don't create laws based on where or where not I [or even the majority of Americans] would choose to bring my family to. If you don't like an area of a town, don't go to it, it's that simple. This is all about personal choice and responsibility, if you don't like a part of a city, like one with a PSB, then don't go near one.


The same could be said about a rowdy bar, or any other "morally corrupt" business etc. A sexual "toy" shop probably would have the same effect right? Or A porn shop...The list of legal immoral business goes on and on that would be illegal if we took your argument all the way.

CP

No, and for several reasons..

#1: Our goverment is too lazy to enforce rulings and big buisnesses do not care about your well being just making thier buck. This would only spread STDs even farther then it has already. (Pandimodium..)

#2: Prostitution is dehumantizing. It's an insult to the person selling thier body, and the consumer purchasing it. Both parties should have more respect for themselves then that.

#3: What would people do about rape issues? How would you be able to tell rape from "I thought I was getting what I paid for"?

Therfor, only chaos, depravity, and a disgusting moral decline can happen by legislation. Simply put, nothing good. And that's why forever it shall remain illegal.

Hopefuly..

Again, I know that this is not a religious forum, but I have to laugh when I read about we cannot find any solution to this intractable circumstance. Well, we could always try following directions. According to HaTorah ["The Teaching"], if you sleep with a woman, you marry her [you could marry first and do the sleeping with after, or you could do the sleeping with first and then you'd have to marry her]. And once you're married, if you should decide to stray, well, then watch out for those rocks flying in your general direction. And that takes care of adultery, porn, and prostitution. And for those who feel that men have gotten the easy way out on this one, well, HaTorah takes care of that problem as well [as it makes the point plain to all men, ie., she's a complete package (as it were) and yours for life].

Now, to answer the questions, no, it should not be legalized. It does dehumanize, despite all claims to the contrary. And if one doubts that reality, then one can fly over here to the land of Aloha and meet some friends of mine.

Who [sic] does it harm and how?

Does prostitution harm the moral fabric of our society? Perhaps, dependent on your system of ethics. However, this is not justification for a law.

Does prostitution harm the community? If a community does not want prostitutes to solicit openly, the community is harmed if they do so. It is similar to laws against nudity; if the community at large takes offense at nudity, then nudity is not to be displayed publicly. This offense only persists if prostitutes do solicit openly, as do streetwalkers and some brothels. For discreet brothels and phone or internet services, this argument is meaningless. Therefore, only certain kinds of prostitution harm the community.

Does prostitution harm the prostitutes? There is an argument that they are dehumanized. What prostitution is is that the provider of services will perform an action for a customer for a fee, or allow the customer to perform an action for a brief time. Outside this time, the prostitute may be indistinguishable from any other person. It is not a stretch to imagine that there are those who would not consider themselves dehumanized. There is an argument that prostitutes speed the spread of sexually transmitted diseases. In all probability, yes, even with protection. However, the next logical step from banning prostitution for this reason is mandatory condom usage or somesuch. There is an argument that prostitutes would be easier to rape with plausible deniability. How? Suppose (for argument's sake) a man has raped a prostitute, and she, a law-abiding citizen, has gone to the authorites. The man claims that it was a lawful transaction. How is this any different from claiming she consented? Especially if she can show that she has not received payment. If she has received payment, in an attempt for plausible deniability, I still fail to see how collecting evidence would be any more difficult than for any other such case, with the possible obstacle of a less sympathetic jury. And a prostitute with any brains could create a shibboleth. If a man rapes a woman who is not a prostitute and claims she is, a conviction would be even easier to obtain. Even if his alibi makes the jury less sympathetic or somehow makes his testimony more believable, this could be easily solved by registering prostitutes. Even if this is a problem, it is possible for a man to make a similar allegation with illegal prostitution. However, does this mean that if prostitution were legalized, prostitutes would not be as likely to be raped? No. This is a different argument. I believe, as it stands, strippers are more likely to be raped, although I cannot find the relevant statistic. However, this does not mean that such occupations should be banned. It could be argued that wearing certain clothing styles increases one's likelyhood of being raped, but few would ban them. A prostitute is aware of the risk, at the least. Therefore, while prostitution does harm the prostitutes, it does not harm them in a way to be grounds for illegality, provided that they enter and may exit by choice.

A question that is slightly off-topic: does pandering hurt the prostitutes? In pandering, a prostitute is given a (usually male) boss. He controls whom she can and cannot service, and what she can and cannot do. However, with labor laws in force, he must pay her a minimum of $6.75 an hour if she works by such a schedule, and if not, doubtless laws regarding comission would be passed. Of course, he has no control over her otherwise, for if his business is legal, it is under scrutiny. Laws would need to be passed to prevent panderers from taking control of regions exclusively, as they are prone to do. Until I wrote this paragraph, my answer was "yes." But now that I think about it, I'll say "no."

Are there any possible benefits to legalizing prostitution? If so, what are they?

The first benefit is that it aids the rule of law. Unnecessary laws are the boy who cried wolf, and can weaken the law in general. Also, if a law can be passed without suitable justification, it sets a dangerous precedent for tyranny.

The second benefit is that it makes prostitutes who already work far less likely to be abused by panderers, and less likely to be abused by customers. If a prostitute is abused by either, as it stands, she will be far less likely to go to the authorities. The legalization of prostitution would provide a means to combat such abuses. I'm not saying a prostitute is less likely to be raped than a schoolmistress, but I would say that it's less likely if prostitution is legal.

The third benefit is the removal of a famously unenforced law. A significant percentage of men will admit to having slept with a prostitute. Transparantly disguised brothels can often be found in phone books. It is not unheard of for college students, including some men, to enter prostitution. While obviously this is not the upper-upper class, these people aren't always from the worst street in Somerville, and they get a pass.

I'd like to hear an argument to any of this, but so far, I've seen no compelling reason it should be illegal.

Should Prositution be Legalized

Without a question, we should legalize prostitution.
If the act of a woman selling sex for money is consensual, there's no reason why it shouldn't be legal. Of course, there are issues like human trafficking, pimping, drug abuse, and so forth that should be addressed. But as long as its consensual, it should be legal.

From a man's perspective, here's another reason why it should be legal. The majority of people believe the idea that sex is a basic human need like bread and water. Unfortunately, not all men have the necessary social skills for attracting a wife. Should those men be forced to pay a fortune to go to a place where prostitution is legal? For a socially inept man not living in or near Nevada, the cost of pursuing a prostitute (including airfare, hotel, brothel fee, car rental) can be over $1000 for just 1 week of sex.

Communities can restrict prostitutes from street walking for the sake of public decency, but prostitution should be a viable option for a working class man. Right now, any man in America who wants a prostitute would either have to pay a fortune for an "escort" or trip to Nevada, or be desperate enough to pick up a drug addict at 12 AM from the streets.

The America I would like to live in would be one where a working class man can have sex with a decent looking woman for less than a day's wages. Right now,
the price of prostitution in America is too high. Given that prostitution does not require an education to get into, there's no reason why a financially poor and socially inept man should have to pay a fortune to have sex. And given that most people consider sex to be a human need, it is Society's duty to help poor and socially inept men be able to have sex with a decent woman.

Who does it harm
If it's consensual, it harms nobody. Many people consider prostitution to be degrading, but you can say the same thing about McDonald jobs or Trash Collector jobs. As long as the Government cracks down on pimps, the woman prostituting themselves do have other options like the McDonald's. Government should not prevent a woman from pursuing the more financially lucrative choice if she chooses.

Who would benefit from legalizing prostitution
The socially inept men would benefit the most obviously. First, they would have access to a basic human need that other men can get easily. The second benefit, which most conservatives overlook, is that the men would be fulfilling their sexual needs with a real woman as opposed to polluting their minds with pornography.

The prostitutes themselves, would be able to trust the Police for protection instead of fearing them, and would have more negotiating power as far as being able to choose which brothel or city to work in. Free choice actually helps improve workplace conditions.

1.) Should prostitution be made legal in the United States? Why or why not?

Yes. Brothels should be plentiful and lush with disease free employees.

2.) Who does it harm and how?

If consenting adults agree to engage a transaction of a sexual nature and complete it in privacy, I don't see how this is harmful to anyone. The only way I can conceive legalized prostitution to be harmful is that it could be damaging to marriages and relationships should spouses get an itch for some cheap excitement. But the decision to visit a brothel is ultimately an individual decision which cannot be blamed upon the profession simply for being accessable.

3.) Are there any possible benefits to legalizing prostitution? If so, what are they

If prostitution were legalized, it would be a major cash crop and benefits could be dispensed to employees. Also, employees could be protected from abusive pimps and the general degradation that accompanies unsupervised operations and could be treated with at least some degree of occupational dignity (possibly). Unequpit men could fulfill a basic human need rather than spend countless hours drooling before images on computer screens. Atop this, taxes could be instituted which would be govornmentally beneficial and it would give police one less vice to interfere with where they have no right to in the first place.

In short, yes. Legalize the profession. Its as ancient as civilization. Erect bordellos on every street corner and let the voluptuaries apply their trade unimpeded by brutal scumbags and meandering, meddling cops. Give them medical benefits for Christ's sake. I perceive nothing wrong through my eyes.

In light of getting to answering the three questions, let me just say a few things on my stance before I reply.

I believe this topic is directly connected with ethics. Aside from other women's "opinions" on the subject matter of "decriminalization" and such I want to directly refer to another users post :



Well you see over 15 years of catholic schooling, world religion classes, and outside studying, one would think I could be a priest by now so please let me share what I've found with you.

I have read and researched all kinds of religions and practices, from the Jews and their torah, the catholics and jesus, islamics and muhammad, to the greeks and the romans, egyptions to the pegans, to the satanists, to the wicca people and the chinese religions. Russian people even have religion.

It seems to me there is a major problem in this country in violation of the first ammendment referring to the section "Freedom of Religion".

Those of you who say prostitution is about "moral decay" are fine to say that because that is a belif, however, last time i checked in this country laws were supposed to be unbaiased. You know, that means "not favoring any one religion". Since the majority of religions that make up america are Catholic(approximatly 224,437,959 as of http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html#religions 2004 which makes up about 2/3's our country) which rates 76.5% of our population that only leaves the Nonreligious/Secular at 13.2% and Judaism 1.3% the only other religions above 1% in the United States. In any case, a major number of people in this country are Catholic. Now right off the bat, i'm just going to say that you think there might be a little bit of prejudice there in decision making among our people?

I think this is very much so true. In my studies in catholic schools I have found catholics to be completely sexually intolerant. Prejudice against gays and the only time they feel having sex is correct when it is consentually between two people for reasons of making a child.

With all that said, yes, I would think that prostituion is only bad because religion says it is bad!

In my studies of religion venturing into pegans and satanism, they do not seem to think it is a bad thing to have sex at all. Many pegans in past centuries have been known to have ceremonial orgies in fields. Other ritutals like in satanism do include sexual things like orgasms as part of their rituals. Satanism is a religion of the carnal flesh as Dr. Anton LaVey will tell you if you read his book : "The Satanic Bible" and also a religion of independance. Their stance on sex in the Satanic Bible says as long as you do not mean to intentionally harm another human being then it is okay to do whatever you please sexually.

Like I said before though, ethics is all about "beliefs" which IS DIRECTLY LINKED TO RELIGION.

I believe the real question here should be : "Is prostituion illegal because it was determined without prejudice to be so or was it just an overall concensus of the peoples beliefs?"

In a country where I see "In God we trust" on every piece of money and where I am given "God given rights" I highly doubt the answer to my question is "Yes prostitution was made illegal because it was determined without prejudice to be so."

So...

1.) Should prostitution be made legal in the United States? Why or why not?

I believe it should be legal. In response to another users post on "decriminalization" : Sure we have laws that protect people against slavery and such but in the realm of prostituion I do not see it as being anything more than just a "job" where people "work". Think about it. Do we not pay people in this country to "use" their bodies to do specific tasks? I work at a hospital where I have to sometimes come into contact with people's fecies and urine and other disgusting substances. Does that mean that my job is degrating to me? No. It is just part of my job and I understand that and I WILLINGLY work there. Degration is all about ethics itself and I see that argument being no different from any other users argument of moral decay.

In this country, forcefully making someone do something they don't want to do is called rape, not prostituion.

If women WILLINGY feel like they need to make a living by selling their bodies(as many pornstars etc do anyway) then why shouldn't they have the freedom to do that? And why shouldn't people have the freedom to take advantage of that for prophet? I do not see a problem in that other than things pretaining to peoples own "ethical" values, which are prejudice opinions on this subjet matter.

What about on the other end of the scale? Why wouldn't women try and take advantage from men selling their bodies? I hear male prostituion is not too uncommon in countries like jamacia. Seems to me they have too much of a power struggle issue with it when they don't feel like seizing the power.

2.) Who does it harm and how?

It harms the pride of those who choose to follow the word of God (in all religions yes judaism, islams, catholic, protostants etc.)

They will never get over the fact that they think there is an almighty being watching over us that will send you to heaven or hell so if we as a society contribute to immorality than "OH NO" we would be sent to hell. The fear of this is what is "PSYCHOLOGICALLY DAMAGING" not the act itself.

Many of these people have been told straight from their childhood that sex is bad. No matter how you try and put that in any kind of context, people have been learning that value their whole lives and that's why it is such a big issue to legalize prostituion. Even the dumbest of the dumb on this earth know they're not supposed to have sex unless they want to bear a child.


3.) Are there any possible benefits to legalizing prostitution? If so, what are they?

Yes. As many of you know masturbation is very common among males in america. Those who refuse this is true, I suggest you take a look at the statistics :

http://www.jackinworld.com/library/surveys/survey04.html

I think that this would increase the psychological needs of men in america. It seems they cry out in those statistics for some sentual love that personally I believe many women in this country fail to accept.

If prostituion were legalized people would probably be required to be tested for STD's(like porn stars are) and that would probably cut down tremendously on the number of STDs in america because instead of people going to drunken party fests or underground prostituion, where they know nothing about the clients they're dealing with, everyone would know if they were clean or not.

Taxes - What won't the goverment tax? heheh

Other than that maybe women would enjoy the benefits of prostituion along with gay men. Who says prostituion has to be about a woman? Who says prostituion nessisarily has to be about sex to? Maybe women will call male prostituion lines to just find someone to be romantic to them once in a while. I don't know, i'm not a woman but i'm sure there's a market out there for what they want out of a relationship to.

I bet some gay guys are just as horney as some heterosexual guys and would benefit from prostituion psychologically also; especially since they seem to be in such an minor isolated world of love.

$1,000 per week? I suspect the last time a man could get a whole week of sex from a hot looking pro for only a grand was 50 years ago. I bet it would cost a grand for just one night of legal sex in Nevada.
It almost sounds like some of you think men have a right to great sex with fine looking women as long as they can pay for it. I can see it now, Daddy spends his paycheck on sex and the kids go hungry. Men are not the most responsible gender in the human race, not when it comes to pleasing his primal urges.
We already have men spending their paychecks on booze and gambling, and the liberal parts of the medical profession want to call doing such a disease.
Society pays the price in the long run.
So I am against legalizing it. But then again, I have never had to depend on my little brain for thinking. The big brain has always been in control.

But is that a good enough reason to make an entire beauracracy for the enforcement of this? Is it worth the resources we waste on this issue to keep it illegal?

To me, that is the heart of the argument- would decriminalizing or legalizing it make more problems than the way we do it now? My thought is no, it would free up resources.

I wonder what percentage of law enforcement budget is actually applied to this issue? Anybody working in the field? police work field that is....
Just from the cop shows I watch, it appears they typically leave the pros alone as long as they are not creating other problems.
And I figure if the majority of a community wants to keep it illegal, then they can get what they want. It is, after all, their tax dollars.

That almost seems an argument for making it legal. If we have a law well-known on the books that isn't enforced, especially a felony law as it is in many jurisdictions, we create a culture in which the law gains the perception of arbitrarity and even irrelevance. Also, if the law is already being broken, then we create an environment of implicit blackmail in which all manner of atrocity is irreproachable.



True. However, forty-nine states have laws that catholically ban prostitution, and states can have wide variance between communities. Anyone will agree that there is a huge difference between Worcester and Cambridge, Boston and Springfield. I think Provincetown would be more receptive to the idea of legalized prostitution than North Adams!

Also, there's the question of whether laws against prostitution even should be made by a community. It's long been considered that laws must respect a right to privacy. It has even been determined (questionably in my opinion) in many cases that laws that do not respect this right run contrary to the federal Constitution. Now, there is the argument that prostitution is an inherently public practice, but this only applies to advertised prostitution. Under current laws, at least in my state, for two friends to come to such an arrangement would be a misdemeanor worth up to one year and five hundred dollars each. (Ch. 272, Sect. 53A) I believe most states have comparable laws.

I work with a retired cop that used to work vice- and he didn't like the resources the department used- and wished it was legal- because the illegal nature of it drew other crimes to it- so they had to use the resources and "move along" these women and bust them, because the black market nature of it drew other undesirables.

He always laments about the amount of resources "wasted" on vice. The budget was considerable % of the APD budget- and had 6 full time officers assigned to it. Out of department with only 50 full time officers- 40 actually "on the street"

Artemise listed lots of the costs here, on page 8 of this topic.

Well, supposing we made it legal. Would they form LLC or Corporations? How about medical benefits? What insurance company executives in their right minds would underwrite them? How about retirement benefits? I wonder how many of them would live long enough to actually retire? (We have fatal STD's now)

I am pretty sure that legalizing, or decriminalizing, prostitution would open up a bigger can of worms than we are already dealing with, especially once the government started regulating it.

And all so fat, unattractive, older men can use their money to get what nature has denied them, and that is a young, sexy, slender babe with a nice rack.
A really rich man could even hire a bevy of such babes and sublet them to his clients. Wait, that is already being done. It makes the papers every now and then, and the clients turn out to be rich and powerful men.
The women are taking huge risks with their lives and there is no monetary compensation large enough to be worth it. Their managers, whether men or other women, will get rich at no risk to themselves. I have to wonder how many men, the more piggish among us in particular, would want to rent out the wife when the family finances get a bit tight.

So basically, it appears that the poor among us want the same sexual opportunities as the rich. That just isn't the American way, sorry.
(not even true in nature)

Well, there are some exceptions. I had a neighbor once who got a mail order bride from the Phillipines. Not exactly prostitution but close. She would be an independent contractor, aka wife. He was nearing 60, she was in her early 20's. By now he is dead and she has found a man her own age, while living in her inherited house. Good for her.

To answer the question to this topic. I feel like prostitution should be legalized. We are suppose to be living in the land of the free but it seems to me that the church has taken over somewhere down the road. They take some things that they think may be immoral and make it illegal while other things they keep legal.
The truth of the matter is in some of the reply's you say that prostitutes can transmit diseases. What about all those people that get so drunk, high, or what ever else and decide they want to have sex and don't care with who it is? What about the ones that cheat? Those things are not against the law and they can also be considered immoral. You can catch something from anywhere. Not just from prostitutes, and the ones that are married can then later transmit it to their wives or husband.
You also have to think about the prostitutes view point. I had that opportunity when I first moved to New York. Finding a job is very limited. How are the prostitutes suppose to pay their bills, stay fed, and so forth with out prostituting. Let's face it you guys. It is getting harder and harder to find a job now days. Most of the reasons why people are against making prostitution legal because the "church" says it is wrong and also, you don't really know why they do it.
I will leave all of you to this, Just remember that it was a prostitute that wiped Jesus's feet.

[quote=Jennifer,Jul 11 2005, 05:44 PM]
[quote=VDemosthenes,Jun 3 2005, 02:28 PM]A debate last year about the legality of prostitution was closed recently. I'd like to continue the debate here. You can locate the original debate here.



To answer the question to this topic. I feel like prostitution should be legalized. We are suppose to be living in the land of the free but it seems to me that the church has taken over somewhere down the road. They take some things that they think may be immoral and make it illegal while other things they keep legal.
The truth of the matter is in some of the reply's you say that prostitutes can transmit diseases. What about all those people that get so drunk, high, or what ever else and decide they want to have sex and don't care with who it is? What about the ones that cheat? Those things are not against the law and they can also be considered immoral. You can catch something from anywhere. Not just from prostitutes, and the ones that are married can then later transmit it to their wives or husband.
You also have to think about the prostitutes view point. I had that opportunity when I first moved to New York. Finding a job is very limited. How are the prostitutes suppose to pay their bills, stay fed, and so forth with out prostituting. Let's face it you guys. It is getting harder and harder to find a job now days. Most of the reasons why people are against making prostitution legal because the "church" says it is wrong and also, you don't really know why they do it.
I will leave all of you to this, Just remember that it was a prostitute that wiped Jesus's feet.

[/quote]

Failure to prepare yourself for life in an adult world where you have to pay your own way in life is hardly an excuse to legalize anything.
I know how it is to be without a job, but it happened to me after I had worked for 40 years so I was prepared to retire early, even if it wasn't my idea.
Young people have it especially tough nowadays, but they also have opportunities that many of my generation did not. They can start off in the work world without fear of being drafted into the army to fight in Vietnam. They have many more opportunities for college grants and loans that were not as available back in 1964.
My children are 34 and 32, and they had many opportunities that I did not, and part of that was my doing. Good families take care of their own. My parents were not good, didn't care about their kids at all, so we were on our own at 17 or 18. And one of us, the younger of my 2 older sisters, did allow men to pay her way, rent an apartment for her, buy her groceries, etc. in return for sex.
Eventually she got smart and went looking for a real job. What she had was a form of voluntary sexual servitude.
As far as "the church" goes, it depends on the church. Catholics are surprisingly lenient, or understanding, or compassionate. Back in the old days of Europe, the priests even took "poor box" money to prostitutes, but they didn't just give it to them. They had to earn it, the old fashion way. So much for celibacy for priests!
They also had rules that determined just how many men a woman could sleep with in a given time period to be considered a prostiture. The number escapes me for the moment, but it was quite a lot. You can learn some strange things watching the History and Discovery channels.
Jesue had a habit of telling people to go and sin no more, repent, change their wrongful ways, etc. and forgiveness would be given. The story you tell in no way shows Christ condoning the sin, but showing love for the sinner.
But whether it is a moral issue, or a legal one, we can look to Denmark (or one of the Scandinavian countries) to see what happens when the genie is let out of the bottle. There was a TV show entitled something like that, how they allowed soft porn and even provided birth control for their teens back in the 50's. One thing led to another, and now the situation is completely uncontrollable.
We have too many genies already running loose. Legalized prostitution is one we can do without.

No, it isn't, but what's necessary isn't an excuse. Actions are not made illegal because there is no reason for them to be legal. The burden of proof rests on you.



Good for you! But by your own admission, you know nothing of having neither a job nor a pension to sustain you. This is the situation under discussion, being without means of support; all else is irrelevent.



True, but that puts you out of college, with loans to pay off, and a plethora of college graduates as competition.



The question is whether you think she could have made ends meet on a real job, and only a real job, during the time she was living by such an arrangement. You say it was sexual servitude, but any job held by the poor is servitude because they cannot leave it, without fast replacement, and survive. What she was doing was using sexuality as a means of labor.



All this is true, though there is some question of whether Mary Magdalene was actually a prostitute. Jesus would not condone prostitution, and his forgiveness and acceptance of prostitutes does not mean otherwise. He forgives usurers, thieves, and adulterers as well, but condemns all three sins at other times. This is irrelevant, however, as we would not make expressing anger or swearing oaths a crime, and both of these things he condemned. Because something is wrong to do does not make it a crime.



Here, at last, you give a reason for illegalization. Your suggestion here is that prostitution, if legalized, will cause significant moral decay in society. I, however, move that such decay has already occured, to the point at which the legalization of prostitution can neither curb nor further it. The example you have already given, of your sister turning to prostitution as a means of support, has become more widespread in these times, with little regard being paid to legality. As I said before, all but the most naive know what kind of business transpires at an "escort service," but this does not deter them. Those who would be given to supply or purchase sexual services do so. For this reason, I doubt that legalization would increase the number of those who enter such business, and even you will admit that it would better conditions for those who do.

As a final example, what you have said about prostitution being legal in Nevada. Technically, prostitution is only legal in the less populous areas of Nevada; that is to say that it is not actually legal in Las Vegas. Do you think this means that prostitutes only operate outside Las Vegas? No, everyone knows that there are prostitutes in the city.

Here's the moral decay argument, which I believe is flawed in many ways...First of all, there is no proof that prostitution legalization would create a moral decay. Another country's example is irrelevant, the Danes are different people, with different culture, and it is impossible to say that what happened to them will happen to us with any certainty. Second of all, saying that legalizing prostitution would create decadence assumes that more people will purchase sex through PSBs, which is speculation, and even if they did, so what? Finally, enforcing a law because "the government" thinks it's moral [or even because most people thinks it's moral] is unfair and an example of tyranny of the majority. If you believe something is immoral [and I agree with you about prostitution being immoral], then you are free not to do it. You have the right not to do something that you see as immoral. You do not, however, have the right to prevent other people from doing it because you think it's immoral. You don't have the right to live in a country where your morals are enforced by law.

CP

BayStateRebel:
Here, at last, you give a reason for illegalization. Your suggestion here is that prostitution, if legalized, will cause significant moral decay in society. I, however, move that such decay has already occured, to the point at which the legalization of prostitution can neither curb nor further it. The example you have already given, of your sister turning to prostitution as a means of support, has become more widespread in these times, with little regard being paid to legality. As I said before, all but the most naive know what kind of business transpires at an "escort service," but this does not deter them. Those who would be given to supply or purchase sexual services do so. For this reason, I doubt that legalization would increase the number of those who enter such business, and even you will admit that it would better conditions for those who do.

As a final example, what you have said about prostitution being legal in Nevada. Technically, prostitution is only legal in the less populous areas of Nevada; that is to say that it is not actually legal in Las Vegas. Do you think this means that prostitutes only operate outside Las Vegas? No, everyone knows that there are prostitutes in the city.

I don't think I used the term "moral decay". I don't think that making it legal will do that much to improve conditions for prostitutes. It will change the rules by which they get taken advantage of, tho. Instead of pimps, they will have managers, etc. They will still be subjected to the dangers of STD's, they are not likely to have affordable medical insurance or a retirement plan unless they open up IRA's on their own. I am aware that the "ranches" are only operated outside of Las Vegas, even drove by one once on vacation. Yes, I drove by, did not stop.
The Las Vegas police are probably better than most other city police departments at going after the illegal prostitutes.

Conservpat
You do not, however, have the right to prevent other people from doing it because you think it's immoral. You don't have the right to live in a country where your morals are enforced by law.

It has no effect on me if it is illegal or immoral or whatever, and I am not going to try to prevent others from doing what they want, except if it comes up on the ballot. I still think that no good will come of it.
Tyranny of the majority? That is lame. If we let every "free" thinker do whatever he wants, things would soon be chaotic. The only thing that might be worse would be to have a bunch of preachers making our laws. Then, tyranny might occur.
Majority still rules, whether we like it or not.
Your last sentence makes no sense to me. What were you trying to say?

Do you suggest every Dud who can't find a pretty girlfriend should take a vow of celibacy?



There are many "real" jobs that don't offer those kinds of benefits. Many women work as prostitutes because the only other jobs available are the McDonald jobs. Unless you can persuade the employers to pay their low wage workers enough money for rent, barring women from prostitution will only deprive some women of the means to pay the bills.

Actually because we're a Republic, majority doesn't always rule. Specifically, majority doesn't rule when it infringes on the rights o fthe minority, as illegal prostitution does.


No problem, I'll try again.


There is no right in this country to have what you think is moral enforced by the government. By saying, "prostitution is immoral, and nothing good will come of it [which I believe is untrue, revenue will come from it], so it should be illegal", you're essentially saying, "I want my moral values reflected and enforced by the Government."

CP

Actually I am a bit liberal in that direction. It isn't that I want my moral values reflected and enforced by the government, it is that I don't want either the religious moral majority OR any low life thinkers in the moral minority forcing their moral values on the rest of us. The idea of legalizing prostitution for the (so far) reasons given is still most likely repugnant to most of American voters.
It is still considered by most to be degrading to women, and just because a few of them choose to do it does not make it any less degrading.
Men who want women for sex only have no respect for women, IMO. They are jerks.

And yes, skeeterses, Duds can either be celibate, or set their sites a bit lower and just get married. There are women who will take the Duds who have less than admirable appearance, unless they are jerks as well. And most women will avoid the good looking jerks as well. They may not be Playboy foldout quality, but so few really are. The airbrush has led many of us into thinking that those few women are more prevalent in life than they really are, and the magazine publishers know how to make us dream the impossible dream.

I would say it is time to face reality, but the media has redefined reality for us until we don't know what it is anymore.
My bet is, if you got legalized prostitution on the ballot almost anywhere in the USA, it would go down in flames....so, dream on you horny men of all ages.
Enjoy your fantasy lives with the unattainable while real women sit at home alone just because they don't live up to your unrealistic expectations.

I don't see legalizing prostitution as "forcing low lifes' moral values on us", it's allowing people who want to solicit sex to do so freely. Making prostitution legal doesn't push any values on anybody, it just gives people the option to do something new...no matter how icky some people think it is.

I don't disagree with you, but with that being said, being repugnant or degrading is not reason enough to keep something illegal.


CP

Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see anyone addressing some of these points:


I expect that the same insurers who underwrite NASCAR drivers or any other high-risk profession would have no problem with sex workers. And, in relation to STDs, most people in the sex industry are far more conscientious about safe sex than, say, your average college student. Besides, it's not a very compelling argument to say "Let's make this profession illegal because they have high insurance costs."


On what grounds are you "pretty sure" of this? What sort of a can of worms does, say, getting a hack license open up? That's all we're talking about, really: licensing people to practice their trade. Granted, such licensing should be accompanied by a blood test - but how many jobs now require mandatory drug testing? Where's the can of worms the professional athletes open by being tested for steroids? I don't think a small licensing bureau and a blood test at a local clinic is really a bigger can of worms than vice units policing sex workers and (sometimes) their clients, the attendant criminal activity, the exploitation of sex workers due to their illegal status, court costs, prison costs, etc.


And whether people decide to take that risk or not is your decision how? It's the government's decision how? Timber cutters take huge risks with their lives, so do fishers and structural metal workers and roofers and lots of other professions. So do mountaineers and hang-gliders and bikers. Should these occupations and activities all be illegal because you don't like people taking risks?

First off, comparing those trades and activities to prostitution is "apples and oranges" stupid. Ever hear of any of them getting a fatal disease from their trade? And how many mothers and fathers are ashamed that their children are practicing their trades?

I never said it was my decision to make, it is you making that assertion.
And it is the governments decision to make, thus far. Get it put on the ballot and you will find that you are in the minority. I suppose if it was legalized, you would feel good about your wife or daughter (or son, for the chicken hawks) practicing the trade? In case your knowledge of current events is also living in the dark ages , we now have FATAL STD's and no amount of blood testing of pros will keep the infected customer (who does not get tested) from spreading his joy.

Just because prostitution is happening anyway is no reason to make it legal.
None of you have any compelling reasons to legalize, except for your own selfish interests. I suppose once we have a whorehouse in every community, you would want a doper house as well? I hear mixing viagra and ecstacy makes sex much more intense. Perhaps each prostitute could also have a provisional pharmacists license?

You screw up your life if you want, but you don't need to push your agenda on the rest of us. I told that to a doper in the Navy once. He was good at not getting caught, but all the younger sailors who were seen with him did get caught. Yet, he kept on advocating the use of marijuana. He finally got his, tho, and spent time in Leavenworth.
You might never get AIDS, but the sons and daughters of others will.
But, I suppose you can live with that.....

My first post so be kind…..not sure what I am doing yet. 

Should prostitution be made legal in the United States?


I am a Christian so of course my answer would be no, because I believe it is immoral.

But for the majority of people living in our country, a country that allows people free choice to do most things they want, they would disagree with me for many reasons.

Abortion is probably the biggest debate issue in America today. I will compare abortion to prostitution only to make this point.

How can we as a nation allow woman to choose abortion because it involves their bodies, and not allow them the choice to make money by having sex with men or woman?

In my opinion abortion is taking a life. Prostitution kills no one, unless those participating get HIV/AIDS.

Yet abortion is legal and prostitution is not. Both have to do with choice.
If you’re pro-choice by allowing abortion, how can you take that right away from prostitutes who only want to make money? In that regard I would think that prostitution should be legalized.



Who does it harm and how?

It would harm those who would have to live next to the brothel or live next to a street where the prostitutes would walk to find clients. And if it were legalized, wouldn't there be more woman out looking for jobs?

I pay pretty high taxes where I live. I would not want something to do with the sex industry moving next to my home, or remotely close for that matter. I think I’m in the majority with this view. I think it is pretty reasonable to say that where most brothels and massage parlors, strip clubs, places where the likelihood of prostitutes would be, would damage most neighborhoods in more ways than we can imagine.
If prostitution were made legal, prostitutes would be able to walk anywhere even in front of your home…and do it…. legally.
Would you like that?

Jeeze, Bill, we are not monsters! Nor are we some kind of creeping algae on the planet. We are humans with hopes and dreams and wishes and families just like you. Our blood is red too. We just like sex. So some of us choose to capitalize on it.

And once again, we do not spread diseases like you all wish we did. We are the safest people to have sex with because our business demands that. My body is my livelihood, and I would be silly to jeopardize that. (Do I need to post my references once again, or can you go back and read my previous posts in which I listed them with links?)

FYI, we already have healthcare, retirement accounts, houses, portfolios, and most of us probably live better than the average person on this board. Many of us are even *SHOCK* business owners. Yep! Some of us might be living next door to you right now! Yikes!



What genie? What is uncontrollable in Scandinavia? I travelled extensively through Scandinavia, and I felt much safer there than I have ever felt here in the good ole "moral" USA. I never worried about walking around at night, where here in the US I would never dream of doing that in some areas. And I worked at some very nice establishments in Scandinavia as a sex worker, and people there just take it in stride. The police are even on our side there- if a girl goes back to a hotel with a man and suddenly feels unsafe, and then decides to leave and the man prevents her from doing so, she can call the police and they will actually show up to help her. Here, the girl would get arrested, and if something terrible happened to her, you would say "it served her right." And why? Because you men are terrified of women in control of their own sexuality. We are punished for being whores even if we aren't taking money for sex- as in the case where a woman was raped, and the case was decided against her because she happened to be wearing lace panties that day. She must have wanted it, then, eh?

I stand as exhibit A.



(1)Repugnant because people in this country, in general, fear sex. In countries in which it is either legal or decriminalized, people have a much healthier attitude towards sex, and prostitution is just another job.

(2)And considered degrading due to ignorance, I would say. Because of this inane fear of sex, people never stop to think about it long enough to realize that it is this exact fear which makes it repugnant and degrading. I like sex. Someone wants sex. I want to give them sex. They want to show me appreciation with a cash gift. What on earth is wrong with that? I would proffer that it is the silly fantasies and myths people develop around sex which makes it "wrong" for those people. Fantasies and myths which played perfectly into the hands of a patriarchal and violent sector of a male-dominated society- a sector which wanted to ensure private property (including wives) were protected from other members of this sector (see Marx and Engels). This sentiment found authoritative voice in organized male-dominated religion, and took so strongly that here it plays out in this very forum. These fantasies and myths have become so prevalent that even women perpetuate them to their own demise and oppression by calling sexually liberated women whores and instructing their female children to not be too sexy in dress or demeanor. Likewise, they instruct their male children to steer clear of "those types of girls." My act is not degrading nor is it repugnant- it is your fantasies and your fears about sex in general which make it so for yourselves.

(3) Men who want only sex from women are no more disrespectful of women than women who want only security and family from men. The only time such a thing is disrespectful is when deception is used in obtaining one or the other. The deception a man uses is "I really do love you baby!" and the deception a woman uses is "I'll be your best lover forever." If people were more honest with what they want out of a liason, any liason, we would surely see fewer divorces.

I have dated hundreds of men in my lifetime, and I have to say that over all I have experienced more respect from the men who pay for dates with me than the men who don't. The reason for this, I have discovered, is that the compensated dates are based on a solidly honest foundation- we both are very clear about what we are there for. I usually enjoy my compensated sex better than my non-compensated sex as well, most likely because men who pay for sex do it often.

And I guarantee more of the people you interact with day-to-day have paid for sex than have been paid for sex. But I would also guarantee that more people in prison and the "justice" system have been paid for sex than have paid for sex. Again, the omnipotent patriarchy triumphs while women stand by and say, "tsk, tsk, that prostitution is just so degrading."



Actually, yes. Lumberjacks in the Brazilian and Peruvian rainforests quite often get fatal tropical diseases (Malaria is the most common and can be very fatal if not treated soon enough). I would also be ashamed of my son or daughter if he/she participated in the destruction of the rainforest. But just to ease your worries, my family are never ashamed of me because they love me and know I am honest and have the utmost respect for myself. Again, shame and disgust come from ignorance and fear. They are emotional wasted energy, and I recommend people exorcise these emotions from their life experiences. And mind your own bodies- not everyone else's.



Welcome to the forum, Churchmouse!

A question for you- if it were legalized next week, would you be tempted to become a prostitute? I doubt it. We might see a small number of women consider it, but I seriously doubt our country would suddenly be inundated with prostitutes filling the streets...and if you would care to look back a few pages, there has been much intelligent discussion regarding zoning issues, PSBs, etc.

Just for everyone's information, I AM WALKING IN FRONT OF YOUR HOME. I am next to you in school, in church, and in line with you at the grocery store. I am in the dressing room at Saks Fifth Avenue trying on a new Armani dress next to you. I am your next door neighbor, your daughter, your sister, your mother, the campaign manager for a local politician, a teacher at a local school, and the wife of a popular actor. I am a national TV star, a Victoria's secret model. I am that distinguished man's date sitting across the restaurant from you. I am the hotel receptionist, the meter maid, a lecturer at a local university, and the police woman who gave you your last ticket. You will never be able to know who I am because I blend in too well with you... I even smell the same as you and your friends.

ExistentialHedonis- thanks again for once again repeating yourself and bringing a human face and common sense to this debate-

If there were to be a debate on this issue, it would be "should it be legalized and regulated or decriminalized"-

I would, after reading all the posts in this thread, say legalized and regulated (sorry ExistentialHedonis ) - because I am a firm believer that evil lurks where there is no information or oversite, despite the inherent inefficiency of goverment and the usual mistakes goverment makes.

Keeping it criminalized makes no sense whatsoever, and is completely asinine in this day and age - especially considering we are SUPPOSED to be a free nation, where a person SHOULD be able to abuse, enjoy, use or whatever word you want to use, to thier own body.

Obesity and overwieght is far more of a national health and disease issue than prostitution could ever come close too- with more victims as well- yet, we see no goverment intervention to ban being fat LOL

Allow me to also welcome azchurchmouse. Don't worry; you're doing fine. I wish all comments around here could be as calm, thoughtful, and clearly expressed as your first one is.

The analogy with abortion is an interesting one, and suggests something to me. Too often the debate about abortion has been stereotyped as one between absolute prohibition by the "pro-life" side, and absolute "abortion on demand" by the "pro-choice" side. Neither of these two extremes, from my point of view, is acceptable. The same is true, I think, about prostitution. Our choices are not limited to absolute prohibition on the one hand, and total lack of restriction on the other. Many here have argued for decriminilization instead of total legalization, with good reasons to back them up.

I suppose I would be most in favor of legalization with regulation. No, brothels would not be allowed to operate everywhere; however, they would be allowed to operate, with careful controls in place to protect workers and clients, in specific areas. (I would prefer that these be somewhat isolated areas, as in Nevada, rather than in crowded "red light districts," but that's a matter of opinion.) Independent professionals like ExistentialHedonist would be allowed to operate in discrete ways (which is what is going on all the time anyway.) This doesn't mean that we have to allow streetwalking in every neighborhood in America. (Personally, I would think of street prostitutes as people who are in need of being helped out of desperate situations rather than as criminals.)

The question has often been asked in this thread how we would feel if our children became prostitutes. As an unprotected streetwalker, certainly not. As a worker in a properly regulated brothel, or an independent professional, I would much rather that my (non-existent) child be a prostitute than a soldier, no matter how necessary that profession might be. (No disrespect meant to any person who has served in the armed forces.)

Your premise, existentialhedonist, is that prostitution is illegal in this country because most people fear sex and have hang ups about it. Baloney.

Sex is Great. Just because you believe that having sex is not the same as running up to a 7/11 for a candy bar, doesn't mean you fear sex or have hang ups about it.


.

I would argue that your view, existential hedonist, is attributable to a political philosophy, more so than mine. Your view seeks to impose a purely capitalist structure on everything, including sex. "Sex" is nothing more nor less than a commodity to be bought and sold. In the same way that a capitalist society treats healthcare as a commodity, so should it treat sex.

I would argue that the societal prohibition against selling sex, has more to do with respect for sex than fear of sex. Not everything is meant to be bought and sold on the open market, and sex is one of those things.

It never ceases to amaze me the way that some posters seem to regard sexworkers as it they were alien lifeforms from another planet that only come out at night to ply their wares and lure unsuspecting men to their doom.

ExistentialHedonist says it with far greater clarity and passion than I could ever hope to muster, but I concur with her assessment. If you are looking for what a sexworker do not be confused by the lowest common denominator as being the most accurate representative.

Walk through a shopping mall, eat at your favorite restaurant or browse at a bookstore and you will see sexworkers shopping, sexworkers eating and sexworkers browsing. And if one should accidently brush against you be assured you will not suddenly develop herpes, e-coli or a bad case of the cooties. That is--if you can even tell that it's a sexworker at all.

Neo-feminist Camille Paglia said: The most successful prostitutes are invisible, because the sign of a prostitute’s success is her absolute blending with the environment. She’s so shrewd, she never becomes visible. She never gets in trouble. She has command of her life, and her clients. The ones who get into the surveys have drug problems or psychological problems. They’re the ones who were sexually abused. Feminists are using amateurs to condemn a whole profession.

I believe it would be a safe assumption hayleanne to say that politically,
ExistentialHedonist is a bit further to the left of the dial than you are. Thus, her outlook on how capitalism and the commercial nature of sex work the same side of the street would naturally tend to clash a bit.

But I don't think there's any doubt when one watches one day of American television that it quickly becomes apparent sex has been commercialized and turned into a commodity to be sell beer, cars, food and whatever else. Remember the Miller Lite "Catfight" TV ad where two silicone-grown babes rip off each other clothes over "less filling" or "tastes great?"

Two voluptuous women wrestling half-naked in water has nothing to do with the selling of lousy American beer and everything with appealing to the prurient interests of sexually-repressed and obsessed American men.

Most of us use our bodies in some way to make a dollar. We've just decided that some ways are acceptable or "moral" and others are unacceptable or "immoral." It's moral for two men to step into a boxing ring and beat each other into submission, unconsciousness or death. It's immoral for a woman to walk into a man's hotel room and give him seven minutes worth of pleasure for money. How exactly does that make any sense?

As long as someone makes a free and conscious choice how they will use their body, mind and soul to earn their daily bread and harm no one else in the process then it's no business of mine.

Everyone lives a double life. Some of us are just better than others at hiding it.

ExistentialHedonist said, “Just for everyone's information, I AM WALKING IN FRONT OF YOUR HOME. I am next to you in school, in church, and in line with you at the grocery store. I am in the dressing room at Saks Fifth Avenue trying on a new Armani dress next to you. I am your next door neighbor, your daughter, your sister, your mother, the campaign manager for a local politician, a teacher at a local school, and the wife of a popular actor. I am a national TV star, a Victoria's secret model. I am that distinguished man's date sitting across the restaurant from you. I am the hotel receptionist, the meter maid, a lecturer at a local university, and the police woman who gave you your last ticket. You will never be able to know who I am because I blend in too well with you... I even smell the same as you and your friends.”

Yes, you are. And you have the right to do all the things you just mentioned. And do them all safely. But I ask you this; do you blend in because you are embarrassed of the profession? I know it’s illegal, but say it wasn’t, would you be proud enough then to let everyone know your profession?
Gays came out of the closet, would you? Be proud enough to tell that clerk in Saks you have the money to buy the 5,000 $ dress you have on because you had a profitable night with several men. Make it known at the local PTA that you’re a prostitute and that you’re accepting new clients. On, “Take a child to work day,” take your children to show them really what goes on. Let them know at church too?

If prostitutes are so proud of their occupation, then why would they want to hide it?
Why try to blend in at the supermarket, schools, why try to hide at all?

You asked me that if prostitution were made legal would I do it.
My answer is no. As I have indicated before it’s a moral issue for me.
I know morals are different for everyone. Mine aren’t yours, yours aren’t mine. That’s ok.
I have done some pretty horrible things in my life I am not proud of, so I don’t cast stones at anyone.
But from all I have read and observed in my 49 years of life, I have to be honest that the view I hold of prostitutes is a sad one. I think through the ages they have been looked at especially by men as objects not worthy of much. Men dominated toys, to use and throw away. They are disposable, trash. Not my views but one held by society. And I look at the men and woman who hold these views as being worse than the prostitute that sells her body for whatever reasons she must do so. I think if you polled the prostitutes in our country, most do it out of economic reasons or emotional ones, not the enjoyment of sex like you do. That is only my opinion.

Questions for Debate:

1.) Should prostitution be made legal in the United States? Why or why not?

2.) Who does it harm and how?

3.) Are there any possible benefits to legalizing prostitution? If so, what are they?

* * * * * * *

1.) Yes. It is going to happen anyway, legal or not. I would prefer that it be regulated so that women who choose to do it will be somewhat safer.

2.) It harms everyone involved. People who buy sex; women and men who sell it; and the spouses or partners of clients who are not single. It causes emotional, spiritual, and physical harm as it currently exists. The physical harm could be reduced somewhat by regulating the people who work as prostitutes.

3.) As I said above, if prostitution were legalized it would be possible to see that prostitutes receive necessary health care. It would also possibly remove 'pimps' from the equation by allowing women to work for themselves.

I disagree personally with prostitution, but as I said above, they don't call it the oldest profession for nothing. At least regulating it might save some people from catastrophic health and/or safety risks.

I blend in simply because I am human just like you. I blend in because women who have sex more frequently or perhaps for money look just like every other woman quite often. You can't tell I am a prostitute because I do not wear a t-shirt or arm band declaring such, nor do I have a tattoo or a license telling you so. I look like the bank teller and the grocery store clerk. And, no, I wouldn't walk into the local PTA meeting and announce my profession anymore than the grocery store clerk or the bank teller would. Do you identify yourself by your profession or occupation at every opportunity or social gathering?

Not all gays have come out, either. Though homosexuality may no longer be a crime in many places, the stigma they suffer still is, and thus the social repercussions they and their children would suffer are still very real and often life-threatening. But many men and women who are gay will never be obvious to you and me. They don't necessarily have to "act gay" or "dress gay" to be gay. Nor do I have to wander around in spiked thigh-highs and a tight tube top to be sexually free (and sometimes charge monetary gifts). But those of us who choose to do so have every right to do so with or without your or anyone else's permission. And many of us women who do walk around dressed provocatively are not necessarily as free with their sexuality as one would imagine.

I do not "try" to hide anything, I do not "try" to blend in. I simply do because, as I pointed out earlier, I look just like you. I am certainly not embarrassed by what I do or I would not be posting about it here.

I do speak out on behalf of all sex workers in my "real life." I do that at every opportunity I have. I believe it is important to do so.



I stand by my statement. But I will clarify: Prostitution is illegal in this country because a group of "moral" women lobbied to make it so way back when. This, again, played right into the hands of a brutal male patriarchy whose MO was to divide and conquer. These "moral" women were terrified that their gold-miner husbands would participate in sexual transgressions while "out West." They succeeded in making it illegal, and the "fear" and "hang ups" people have about it are working very well to keep it illegal. The "moral" women also succeeded in class stratification of women. Explore the whole scholarship surrounding colonialism if you don't believe me.

1) Clearly yes. It is nothing more than an imposed religious standard. Why can a person rent out their body for any other form of labor but this one? Also you have the absurd situation where it is legal to give away sex, but illegal to charge for it. Silly and anti-liberty.

2) Illegal prostitution harms many people. Having it illegal drives it underground, leads to pimps, violence, a lack of medical care and the like. Legalizing it like many nations have means you can regulate and tax it.

3) Tax revenue, an end to pimps. Regulations on health care and STD testing, licenses, etc. Mainly taking it out of the hands of crime lords and putting it into the hands to business and regulators.

Yes, you are like every other woman, but I do not think your job is that common. I am a teacher by profession. I talk to parents who usually do not hide their occupations. Kids talk about what their parents do. As a rule forms are filled out at home by parents with information and numbers that help the school locate the parents in times of emergency. Would you list yourself as a prostitute or sex worker? By blending in, are you also hiding in a way? Would you tell your children your profession or anyone else that might ask?

I think that ExistentialHedonist quite adequately answered the original questions you posed azchuchmouse, so I'm curious why you are continuing to try and draw her out as to how much of her private and personal information she chooses to voluntary share with the world.

As a teacher who deals with parents who "usually" do not hide their occupations tell me how you know which parents physically or sexually abuse their children? How do you know none of the children you educate aren't locked in a closet when they come home with a failing grade?

How do you know that a parent ISN'T a sexworker or prostitute? Would knowing that little Johnny's mom was a exotic dancer or worked as a call girl change how you taught or instructed that child? Would you get a funny feeling if Sally's mom the stripper asked you to help at the next P.T.A. event?

What makes you think that sexworkers try to conceal what they do from their children, spouses or friends? Some certainly do. Others don't. Everyone else I would guess is handled on a "need to know" basis.

If offered a choice between ExistentialHedonist teaching my son a class and Mary Kay Letourneau, I would not hesitate to choose the former over the latter.

Your questions are rhetorical and for the most part preachy and judgmental. Do we really need that?

I worked at H. & R. Block a few years ago. There was a woman who came in and listed her occupation as "adult entertainer," which could mean almost anything. She was the office manager's client--not mine, but it was fairly well known in the office.

In this case, it was necessary, to list an occupation. Income, whether legal or illegal (if the adult entertainer's income came from an illegal source) is taxable. If you remember, not reporting income was what got Al Capone.

I have to ask- just how am I not supposed to blend in, exactly? Do you expect me to smell different? Shall I wear a scarlet letter "P" pinned to my blouse? Should I announce to all and sundry my sexual proclivities? Or should I just stick to telling them what my day job is? Perhaps I am a teacher too...or a guidance counselor... should I make all of my income activities public? Why is it any of your business?

Does the principle at your school make his penchant for S&M known to the PTA? Or how about the Phys Ed teacher's making his weekly visits to a massage parlor known to the schoolboard? And what about the lunch-lady's occasional dalliance with the young bisexual call girl? And the drama teacher's moonlighting as a phone-sex operator? Do you expect them all to 'fess up?

While your writings, essentialhedonist, make for interesting reading, they continue to miss the point at hand.

Individuals, in this country, don't have a "right" to decide what laws are to be obeyed and which ones should be ignored.

Our society draws the line on moral and ethical issues through a system of representative democracy, not via a method where everyone has the right to determine their own set of laws.

As it stands, prostitution is illegal in nearly every place in the US. And why is that? Because the PEOPLE, via their representatives, have decided that such activity is immoral, unethical, and should be illegal.

Pointing out that people have private sex lives and that some break these laws doesn't justify their actions.

Personally, I once believed that prostitution should be legalized but have changed my mind. I think it should continue to be illegal since it would cause more problems that it would pretend to solve. And, I'm in the majority on this issue so prostitution WILL continue to be a crime.

Criminals should be punished. To the full extent of the law.

Yes they have. The majority of Americans have thought, "well, I belive that prostittuion is immoral, so I don't think anyone should be able to, er, do it." No doubt, prostitution IS illegal...I just don't see a good reason as to WHY it's illegal.

No doubt. It will continue to be a crime, because our government, and by proxy, people will contine promoting their moral beliefs by law. But all your post said, LordHelmet, was that: A: we can't pick and choose what laws to follow, and B: Prostitution is illegal. But the question is, why? Why is it illegal, and is that a good enough reason? Frankly, I don't think, "I think it's immoral" is a good enough reason for something to be illegal [and by the way, I'm with you on that, I don't see it as moral].

CP