Why is there a need for a Pledge of Allegiance? With or without words "under God" in it, any phrase that children are forced to repeat every day, day in and day out, becomes a ritual.

From Wikipedia:

QUOTE

A ritual is a formalised, predetermined set of symbolic actions generally performed in a particular environment at a regular, recurring interval. The set of actions that comprise a ritual often include, but are not limited to, such things as recitation, singing, group processions, repetitive dance, manipulation of sacred objects, etc. The general purpose of rituals is to express some fundamental truth or meaning, evoke spiritual, numinous emotional responses from participants, and/or engage a group of people in unified action to strengthen their communal bonds.

As you can see, the definition fits the recitation of the Pledge 100 percent.

Why do we, being a highly advanced and modern Western society in the beginning of the XXI century, need to force our kids to perform a ritual on a daily basis?

Why do we, being a highly advanced and modern Western society in the beginning of the XXI century, need to force our kids to perform a ritual on a daily basis?

I think rituals might be something that will always have a place in any society, no matter how evolved. They enforce particular messages and provide comfort to people when they recite them. I think rituals have an important place deep down in the human psyche. Think about obsessive compulsive people-- their need for rituals (over the top ones) is something that can be treated with drugs.

I think it is a useless politicized brainwashing ritual that is starting to have the opposite effect over time. The frivolous add-on in the 50s of "under God" has pretty much undermined the whole premise over time.

There doesn't seem to be anything wrong with the Pledge of Allegiance - so long as people have the choice of whether or not to say it, then who cares?

Why do we, being a highly advanced and modern Western society in the beginning of the XXI century, need to force our kids to perform a ritual on a daily basis?

'Need' is a little strong - it's a tradition and (unless I have deeply misunderstood this topic) no-one is forced to say it..

After all, no-one is being forced to pledge allegiance to the president or to a particular party - just the US itself - which is a fairly abstract concept - (as nations are in general).

And it does reinforce the ideas of freedom and justice etc - and given that even now, in the XXI century there are a lot of places where the governments have no respect whatsoever for those ideas, I think it is good that the idea of protecting freedom and equality is kept alive.

I do have a minor problem that the whole 'indivisible' part of the pledge. Seems to me that if people in a part of the US wanted to secede, then they should be free to do so. But it's an ambiguous line, so...

There's nothing wrong with the pledge itself; and even though I am not a particularly religious man I have no problems with words "under God". But I do have a problem with rituals of any kind - probably because I feel that any state-sponsored ritual inhibits free thinking and is a form of brainwashing.
Yes, technically no child is required to say the Pledge. However, it would be naive to assume that an average child would be able to resist the peer pressure and voluntarily become a school pariah by refusing to participate in the school-mandated ritual.

Okay- I thought I was being brief, not one-lining, sorry

I think, the pledge, as it was originally written, was a good sentiment and learning tool when it was being used prior to the 50s in mostly one room schools that existed in America at the turn of the century. Materials for schools were very limited, and the need to teach several grades at once frequently meant repeating lessons out loud- this was a "primer" for this kind of activity, one all ages could recite out loud before learning the rest of the curriculum for the day. When it was politicized during the 50s, it was basically changed from a learning tool to a brainwashing tool. Now, the whole thing is a political football, simply because religouis types don't want to lose thier access to brainwashing large groups of children into various evangelical churches (most sunday schools still say the pledge, I wonder if they would say it if the words "under god" were never added? I serously doubt it) . As a child grows to teenage years, teenagers being hyper aware of adults hypocrisy, the pledge becomes a very bad and useless joke. They can very well see the silliness behind words like "indivisible" when 51% of America is certainly divided from the other 49%!

In my worldly travels, the funny thing that I've found is that Americans are nearly the only people who have a need to disassociate themselves from their nation of birth. For instance, we have the term "african-american", which would insinuate to most people that maybe these folks were originally from Africa. The truth is that nearly all of them have been here as long as anyone else.

The odd nature of our need to be "un-American" and the fact that people see the pledge as Brainwashing our children is even more interesting. Frankly, I see the pledge of Allegiance as just what the name would insinuate. I believe that there's nothing wrong with encouraging Patriotism in our children. Heck, I'd like to see more of it. I wish I could impart some of my knowledge of life outside of the United States on people, and how different it really is for most of the world. I wish that I could show people how the conveniences of the great USA aren't even necessarily as available in Europe. I wish I could take everyone to Arlington and show them the graves of the brave men and women who paved the road to having life in the US the way that most of the world strives to be. (If you don't believe me, then why do people that hate us in the Middle East shop in Albertson's, wear Levis, their kids listen to Eminem, and they all drink Coke??) If my children are forced to pledge their allegiance to the United States every day of their time in school, then so be it. I'm glad. Please teach my children (well, when I have some!) to be faithful to the ground we walk on and how wonderful it really is. Spending time in middle east (well, mostly Afghanistan but some in Saudi and Jordan) taught me some sincere lessons on poverty, human nature, the joys of capitalism (you'd never imagine that American products are as prevalent as they are... there are KFC's and Hardees in SAUDI ARABIA!), and what it means to the world to be "American".

There are some pundits and zealots in our country that have the idea that the world is a conspiracy and that the middle east hates us because of GW. Nevermind the fact that the Koran tells them to hate us... There are some people that haven't even been to Mexico (Canada doesn't count because it's just like America!) or to the US Border. There are many people that believe that they're entitled to a posh lifestyle without working for it and that success is an American entitlement.

It's funny for me to see that the vast majority of people that have problems that they blame on the government are the same people that always have the same problems and nothing changes.... and oddly enough, are the same people that don't believe in the Pledge of Allegiance... Go figure.

Regardless of what the cynics say, I Pledge Allegiance to the wonderful ground that I'm blessed enough to wake up on every morning. I've been to other places. I'm not brainwashed, I'm just really Thankful.

What an utterly consumerist version of patriotism!

I absolutely reject the notion that there is a direct correlation between one's love for the country and the GDP per capita of that country, or, as you put it, the level of "conveniences" that this country provides. By that logic, countries like Albania, Turkey, or China, or Russia don't have real patriots - or at least, not on the level of our own homegrown american patriots.
I've stated it before - it's easy to love a country which is rich, prosperous, and strong. Now, try to love your country when it is poor, and weak, and is run by some maniacal dictatorial regime...

You can teach your child whatever you feel is necessary for him or her to become a better person. Heck, if you feel that he needs to repeat the Pledge five times a day instead of one - I have no objection at all. But don't force your beliefs on me and my family, don't brainwash my child with that nonsense. My child will learn to love this country because that's the land where he or she has grown, absorbed its culture and language, and became (hopefully) a better person. She will love this country regardless of which regime is currently at the helm and what the level of GDP and per-capita income is.
I've been to many countries around the world (including Canada and Mexico - and no, Canada is not like United States at all - there's no need to insult Canadians by implying that they have no national identity), the only other countries that subjected its children to daily rituals such as ours are Soviet Union and China.
Why can't we allow our children to become patriots on their own? Why do we have to bang it into their little heads with a hammer?
When being "thankful" is mandated, the feeling is not genuine.

If I didn't know better, English Horn, I'd think that this post was written by Micheal Moore!!! ( )

I never mentioned GDP, but rather meant that in America the poor have Cable TV, we have national Parks in every city, our water is flourinated, there are public restrooms everywhere that are free, 7-11's on every corner, gas is cheap, etc, etc, etc. These are all things that people don't realize are important until you hop on a plane and head somewhere that doesn't have them. I'm sitting here typing while I'm at work in an airconditioned office, drinking a red bull (sugar free of course!), listening to streaming radio on the net, and trying to avoid really working. God Bless America.

Your post mentions being forced into the pledge, of which is never the case. My argument is why not remind the kids on a daily basis that this country is great. Being in the military (even if I am a weekend warrior!), I've had the opportunity to spend time abroad. (IN which case I do believe that Canada doesn't really count! - I know you disagree!) I know that here there are people who spew awful rhetorical and non-objective statements on the internet without any fear of reprisal. As much as it makes my blood boil to read it... it's a beautiful thing. Especially because the same people will probably get in their cars tonight, drive home on a well paved road, sleep in a comfortable air conditioned house, eat a nice meal, etc., etc., etc...

Why shouldn't we be patriotic? Because your near-sighted view of a President you don't like? Come on... don't mock what you don't understand. The beautiful thing about living here is that people can choose to be cynical and apathetic and allow their kids to refuse to say the pledge of allegiance... brainwashing, sure. Sure... and you had to say it in school didn't you? You take what you will from that statement.

I can't believe that we are both writing here in English, because you don't hear what I am saying, and... apparently... I don't hear you either.
I never said that we should not be patriotic. On contrary. I consider myself patriotic... even though I hate participation in any mass ritual, be it reciting the Pledge, singing the National Anthem, or whatever else. What I am saying that all the things you mentioned such as



is readily available in any Western nation, and, believe it or not, in some "second-world" countries such as Russia, Ukraine, or Poland... So if you give that as a reason to be patriotic, the reason is not sufficient... One should love the country not for the cheap gas and free toilets, but for something which is totally unrelated to all these "conveniences".
Imagine that tomorrow a terrible economic cataclysm strikes America... and for a period of 10-15 years it goes into a depression similar to the one we experienced during 1930s. Every European nation plus Canada plus China plus Russia becomes significantly more prosperous than United States. The government charges $3 for using a public restroom , and 7/11 on every corner go out of business.
Are you telling me that you will love your country less?

Good Point.
(However, your mention that all of the "conveniences" that I discussed are in every European nation is relatively unrealistic... if not untrue. You know how hard it is to find a restroom in Berlin?...how many people have cars in Prague?..hell, how many people in Russia don't have heat?!?!?!)

My mention of tangible "ease of life" parts of living in America are just a way to illustrate to those who throw the US "under the bus".

We have the freedom (as I mentioned before) to make absurd comments, to believe that the gov't is one big conspiracy, to make the decision to abort babies, the ability to roam the streets freely, and the freedom to bash all of the companies that provide jobs and tax dollars to millions of Americans (oh, I think I should've been talking about the things I like!!!... )
Seriously. Put on a uniform and go to Afghanistan, where regardless of your stand on the war, we are actually repressing those whom attacked us on 9/11 and liberating people from abhorrid oppressoin. I would be happy to send you some pictures (of course when I get home) of the Afghani people greeting us with open arms, while we did what I believe is one of the most wonderful parts of being American, spread freedom and democracy... (please don't argue that point- of course unless you have been there... )

If America hit hard times... of course I'd love her. (**oh, but if we had a depression, Canada would undoubtedly be hit relatively hard as well... we can argue that on another board). The best thing is that we wouldn't stay that way forever... (of course unless we keep teaching our children to be apathetic, lazy, and cynical, in which case we might be doomed!)

Heck, then I would still love the pledge, and maybe just pray afterwards. Wouldn't that just annoy a liberal!!

I think it's been said multiple times in this thread that children are not mandated to participate in the pledge of allegiance. Growing up I had a friend who abstained from the pledge due to religious reasons and she was not derided in any way.

What is mandated to the vast majority of Americans is to attend government schools. It shouldn't be a shocker to have government schools promoting government interests. Loyalty to our nation is definitely one of them, and the pledge of allegiance, brain-washing as it may be, does a good job of promoting it.

Why do we, being a highly advanced and modern Western society in the beginning of the XXI century, need to force our kids to perform a ritual on a daily basis?

Its pretty much about nationalism, and I don't like nationalism, because when other countries have problems which are far worse then ours, nationalism lets us just say "thats their problem, not ours". Being an atheist, I stoped saying the under god part of the pledge when I was in middle school. Then I got annoyed at our republican government sometime in my freshman year, so I stoped saying the pledge all together, and this year I got more tolerant of our republican government (because I stoped thinking it was greedy, bad, etc, and started thinking it just saw the world differently then I did), but by then I had already adapted the anti-nationalism stance. As a result, I haven't said the full pledge in about 3 years.

For the most part the "Pledge of Allegiance" is a school thing. In Fort Worth the school board, in its lack of wisdom, has decreed that it be recited every morning. Between that and teaching to the test, there 's little time or inclination to teach students to think.

Aevans176 since you are long out of school, I doubt you are in an environment that requires daily, rote recitation of the pledge. Like prayer though, it can be an individual thing. There are a couple of options. You could say it every morning in private just before or after brushing your teeth or you could stand and publicly recite it solo in almost any place people congregate--a restaurant, a mall, a theater, a rock concert, the doctor's office, or maybe if you really wanted to do some good at the opera or ballet--for example, freedom of speech, you know

I've always viewed the pledge as a show of respect. In my opinion, if you live in this country, you are acquainted with all that this nation has been through and what it stands for. You should know that this country's principles are contrary to ritual brainwash, and that throughout our history our countrymen have revolted, rioted, fought, and died to protect freedom of thought and speech. It should be apparent that there is not the slightest intent of brainwash meant by having schoolchildren show respect to our nation's proud symbol, and that children should not be forced to say it, because children should not feel forced to say it. You should feel obligated to act if you feel that it is an encroachment of privacy, but you should also feel obligated to honor the flag and our country and have a desire to instill in our youth a loyalty to this great nation that is daily reaffirmed. I believe it is the responsibility of the citizens to decide when this has become unreasonable. Personally, I think it is just fine, it is nowhere near ritual brainwash, and if it does then I think we can complain about it. You don't even have to say the whole thing, if it bothers you; it's the idea behind the action that counts.

I Pledge Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands,
one Nation under God,
indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

I can see how some would object to the "under God" part, but how is any of the rest of it brainwashing? Granted, it probably gets done too often to have significant meaning to many, but I don't see any more harm in this than playing/singing the national anthem at sports events.
I never felt forced to do it, and never really appreciated it much until I served in the military, and got to see how the citizens of other countries have to live.
I see no harm in it, but others have the liberty to form their own opinions.

There's absolutely no harm in the pledge itself. I'll go further to say that it's a great pledge, promoting great ideals on which this country is supposed to be built.

It's not the pledge itself I object to; it's the daily mindless repetition of it. I do believe that if schoolkids were asked to recite it once a year (at the beginning of the school year, for example, or at the graduation), for many of them it would become much more meaningful than it is now.

As a schoolchild, I didn't mind reciting the pledge of allegiance daily in school. It was only later on that I learned about the Red Scare and loyalty oaths that my teachers had to make (or not be permitted to teach).

I really wish that there was an alternative to the two responses in the poll, because I do not think that the pledge in itself is so bad. It is what it has come to represent that gives me the willies.

In the 1950s, somebody just had to put in "under God" to make it even more Communist-proof (he must have forgotten that we were taught that Communists are all liars and so lying about the "under God" part was irrelevant to "those people" ).

The pledge is just one more thing that causes more division than unity these days. Perhaps it has everything to do with the "me first" mentality running slap-up against the "either you're with us or against us" mindset. While I do not think that those who do not believe in God are all that traumatized about God's inclusion in the pledge, I take umbrage at the idea that those of us who don't display our patriotic spirit down to the color of our skivvies are somehow un- or less American.
Our society has managed to produce avid atheists as well as devout believers; America must take responsibility (if not credit) for all of these groups.

To answer the question: Continuing a tradition does not necessarily "force" anyone. I would suppose that anyone who did not want to stand and recite the pledge could manage a timely bathroom break. Or his parent/guardian could ask that the child be excluded from such a ceremony.

A ritual suggests a religion, and I see the implication. This country did not take form in a vacuum, and religion was rife during many if not all of the expansions that took place. We invoked the Almighty's name even as we pushed the Indians off their land. We're just not as advanced and modern as we would like to think.

No, it is not necessary to continue to recite the Pledge of Allegiance every day any more than it is necessary to sing The Star-Spangled Banner when you first wake up. Both can still be reserved for special occasions.

Funny you'd mention capitalism when talking about the pledge since it was written by Francis Bellamy, a Christian Socialist and was articulating the ideas of his cousin, a Socialist author. The point I'm trying to make here is that children as well as a majority of adults mindlessly say the pledge without knowing its history, or the purpose, or that the word "equality" was left out because most Americans were against equality for women and African Americans (why wasn't that added when "under God was added? ). Simply going through the motions of saying the pledge without any understanding of it doesn't make one patriotic and doesn't serve much purpose.





The Kemalist idea that Modernization and Westernization go hand in hand is popular in the West but not so elsewhere. Just because a culture adopts goods and ideas from America doesn't mean that they want to be American nor does it mean they like us either.


Samuel goes on detailing how in the 70s and 80s Americans consumed tons of Japanese cars and electronic goods without becoming "Japanized" or wanting to be like Japan. KFC's and Hardees in Saudi Arabia don't have anything to do with "being American" to the rest of the world. I agree with English Horn that you're equating patriotism with the luxuries we have here in America rather than our history and culture (unless our culture is Starbucks, Wal-Mart, and McDonalds). The luxuries of modernization are nice and not something I'd want to give up but it's not why I like America. I realize that some people, religions, and cultures don't want these luxuries and they're not important to them. I disagree with you that we should remind kids on a daily basis "that this country is great" because of our luxuries and that "everyone wants to be like us" because that just isn't the case.




Oh please. I don't want to get off topic but if you can actually read the Quran and cite the verse where you read that and then send it to me, that would be most helpful.

I have a little bit of a problem with the daily pledge. It is a bit of brainwash.

I mean: I pledge Allegiance to the Flag? Of the United States of America?

What sense is that? What meaning does it have, especially for children? Its really just as bad as chanting any other mantra of nationalist propaganda in any other place in the world (which we all often look upon negatively).

And to the Republic for Richard Sands- is what children often hear. Who Richards Sands is they do not know.

One nation, under God, indevisable.
Really! Are we sure we are under God? Religious indoctrination and what child knows what indevisable means?

With liberty and justice for all? HA! That is most certainely debatable.

Its early brainwashing in my opinion. The whole hand over the heart thing, like its really supposed to be heartfelt, yet most kids dont even know what they are saying until high school, and then they dont make them say it anymore!

I think it doesnt serve any other purpose than memorization of it, for life. Im not ademant enough about it to make an issue at the school, now prayer would be another thing. I can live with it but I dont like the premise.

Im not sure anyone, but especially children should be peer pressured to pledge their allegiance to anything until they are old enough to understand what it means.

This debate isn't about whether the words 'under God' should be in the pledge, yet every liberal in this thread has taken the time to throw jabs at it. So I'm going to quickly defend it and then get back on topic. I want you to ask yourself this question, where do your rights come from? There are only two answers, either people, or God. If people have the power to give out rights, then people also have the power to take away rights. However if God gives rights, nobody can take them away. That is why it's in the pledge, and rightly so.

What is so offensive about the pledge of allegiance? Is it bad to pledge allegiance to a country which protects your God given rights and preserves your freedoms? Is it wrong to promote unity and tolerance? Is it bad for all Americans to have liberty and justice? I think it's a moot point simply because if you think those concepts are wrong, you are free to not participate.

Protecting ones freedoms?
Tell it to gay people who would like to marry. Tell it to anyone who has been drafted into war against their will. Unity and tolerance? Explain that to Native Americans who are barely recouperating from 400 years of 'unity and tolerance' and to the grandchildren of slaves. They may now believe in the pledge and in the United States of America, given years of introspection. (perhaps)

Look, Im not wanting to get panties in an uproar about the Pledge. I just dont think that anyone should be chanting a daily mantra about 'pledging Allegiance' (which I think to be something of consequence? Does anyone disagree with that?)- to a flag, to the United States or anything, anyone, any country- until the Pledgor has the capacity to know what they are pledging Allegiance to.

Its not difficult to understand. It is the very concept of freedom, free choice, not imposition to Pledge because you go to school in the US and everyone else is doing it, unless we think the Pledge is just something to be imbedded into memory (and therefore meaningless). We cannot expect these youngsters to have any personal stand on the matter. Indoctrinating them in a propaganda chant of which they understand little is simply superficial patriotism and more-so irritating, every single day.

My primary objection to the pledge is that we pledge allegiance to the flag, which is yet another case of flag-idolatry. What did the flag ever do to deserve our allegiance? It's a symbol, but what does it symbolize? I would prefer that we pledge ourselves to the Constitution, not the flag. The Constitution is the true heart of our nation. Not purple mountain majesties, not fields of grain, not idea-deprived pieces of cloth. What's the difference between pledging allegiance to the flag and pledging allegiance to the national anthem? The pledge should focus on the true essence of our nation: the Constitution.

Remember, it's not the flag that protects our rights, nor does it give us liberty and justice. The Constitution gives us these things.

Remember too that flags have a militaristic odor to them. After all, flags were originally created to establish rallying points on the battlefield, and to show everybody where the general was. For most of the history of their use, flags were primarily flown at military installations. Flag-idolatry has strong militaristic connotations. Nowadays that connotation has been weakened, but it remains strong enough to wrinkle the nose of any peace-loving citizen. Moreover, the very notion of allegiance is militaristic in connotation. We should pledge not our allegiance, but our good faith or our citizenship.


No, there is a third answer: the Constitution. It gives us our rights. And that's why it should be in the pledge, not the flag and not God.

Erasmussimo

I think this answer is just as bad as the other two. The Constitution can only go as far as man allows it. It does not supercede mans interpretation, therefore it can not be more powerful than man.

And thus all rights are illusions of man that come from other men.

The pledge is a pledge to an illussion which is effective in reinforcing the principles of nationalism. Nationalism is an essential tool for the ruling class of any and every nation. Solidarity protects the status quo.

It's all about pledging allegiance to the status quo, but the days of monarch and emperors are gone, so the powerful have moved it to allegience for "concepts" and symbols. And to an intelligent person, I don't think it matters why you would do as you are asked, whether it be through, religion, patriotism, nationalism, and so on, just as long when asked to do something it is done.

If 5 years old is when we allow our kids to start interacting with our government through education, then at 5 years old is when the status quo will start their indoctrination.

I guess I would disagree with you that rights are somehow an illusion and only bequeathed to men by other men. I believe all men (mankind) have the inalienable right to be free, or at least strive for freedom. Whether that right is embodied in a constitution or in the hearts of huddled masses living under repression and tyranny, it is the very right that makes living worth the trouble. Many like to have symbol that embodies this philosophy for them, whether a daily reminder, a standard to rally 'round or a badge of honor to be worn. I don't look down on them for this, nor should anybody else, IMO.

I don't really see any harm in the pledge, though I'm not an advocate of forcing school children to recite it daily, anymore than we should force them to learn the national anthem..It gives some people comfort and focus in their lives, and it's mindless indoctrination to others.........but many things can be seen as visa versa by both sides. What makes one right and the other not can only be determined by an individuals conscience.

As far as the status quo, there will always be one. If forces who oppose any type of nationalism gain complete power, then they become what they fought against, the status quo. The non-powerful have just as strong of allegiance to 'concepts' as the powerful. If not, then they would have neither a purpose, nor a movement.


This is already happening. The public schools are government schools, and as such practice nor preach anything that is contrary to government. Either including or prohibiting the pledge from the schools is going to change this fact.

One-sided much? The fact is that kids are not the only ones to perform the "ritual" you seem to be propagating is so evil. Meetings are opened with the pledge, public and private events, etc. children aren't the only ones to recite the pledge.

I support the Supreme Court's decision that you must at least be standing, even if you do not choose to salute the flag. It should be the individuals right to choose if they will support the nation under which they live and are benefited. We are given more freedom than any nation on earth and to call giving twenty seconds every morning away to pledge your loyalty to the nation brainwashing is highly short-sighted. With that freedom comes a choice: support the symbol of the nation or not... yet I to this day have never encountered a person who refuses to honor the symbol of the nation.

Symbols are said to be more effect than words. With a symbol you can derive courage and power; words are, well... just words.

I am on the fence on this issue, I support letting people decide if they will be "brainwashed" or not. Yet on the same token I view it as a time-honored tradition of loving your country.

When you put the use of brainwash in context in this instance you get a very black and white way of looking at things. Should children break away from reading because it is encouraged in public schools? is it not brainwashing them into something they may not want to do? Should children cease to clean their rooms because their parents are brainwashing them into performing chores they don't want to do because we live in an evolved society?

All these claims that the pledge is tantamount to brainwashing actually proves that it's not.

I really don't see how reciting the pledge can be described as such. How many of us recited the pledge as children in school? Now how many of us have grown up to be mindless drones who are so "my country, right or wrong" to a fault, that we're completely ignorant of our nation's dark moments and refuse to believe that the great U.S. of A. is capable of acting in such a manner?

Let me see a show of hands! Anyone? No one? Okay. So much for the U.S. government's attempt at brainwashing.

One could even make the arguement that parents getting their kids to refuse saying the pledge is a form of brainwashing! Why not leave the decision up to the child? Since it's a Catch-22 scenario anyway...why make such an issue?

The feeling that I get, and I apologize if I am mistaken, is that it's wrong or at the very least looked down upon to show kids how they can and why they should be patriotic.

As Artemise has pointed out, we are not, by any stretch of the imagination, a perfect nation. Yet we also have many great things to be proud of.

Now if the pledge should tell us anything, or at the very least, if we can instill something in it's recital that perhaps has been forgotten its that we are one nation. We're all different and yet we all make up the citizenry of a nation that, with all our faults, is still a beacon of hope to those that seek freedom.

That we are indivisible. That when the chips are down and the crap hits the fan, we actually have been seen to set aside our differences, quit the petty squabbling for a moment, and come together in times of great victory and deep sadness.

That we do strive for liberty and justice for all. That in the pursuit of one, the other may be found. To seek out both for the benefit of all of us, not some of us.

Now I know I've probably come off the last half of this post, speaking as if I have a huge, fluttering American flag behind me, dressed in 18th century colonial American garb, but if we can actually instill those ideals into our children, through this pledge, what's the harm in doing so?

Many of you have claimed that it's recitition is nothing more than empty, hypocritcal rhetoric. Many would not have a problem with making changes. Let's not abandon a tradition. Let's change it by injecting substance into the emptyness of these words and actually teach these kids what liberty and justice for all really mean.

False. Two liberals have been somewhat critical of the addition of the phrase - as has one moderate libertarian. Another liberal didn't mention it at all - and yet another said he had no problem with it. This liberal isn't going to "throw a jab" at the phrase, either - but this is a jab at your attempt to introduce partisan divisions into the debate via blanket generalizations.



I nulled my vote on the poll - I don't think the pledge is either unifying or brainwashing. At best, it is a ritual that has become so rote as to be meaningless - outside of using it to create partisan divisions.

Frankly, I doubt it would make any difference whatsoever if the pledge disappeared from the face of the earth altogether - apart from adding an additional twenty seconds to the school day for education. People would be no more patriotic as a result and no less patriotic as a result. To be honest, I've never seen much point to what Erasmussimo referred to as "flag-idolatry". Now, if kids were, as he suggests, pledging daily allegiance to, say, the Constitution or the Bill of Rights, it might have some meaning. But, then, a few kids might take an interest in what's actually in those documents. And that would never do.


--------------------
"... one nation, under surveillance..."

Thank you Wertz for pointing out that a libertarian, not a liberal is concerned with the goverment evangelizing our children- bout dang time.

I do not support goverment intrusion into private lives, including how to raise my children, and this goes to the heart of this debate- I can choose to instill patriotism in my child if I wish, or teach them to be Christian- it is not the goverments place. I support public education, because it helps the general welfare- but checks must be made to make sure that the goverment isn't using this as a brainwashing indoctrination camp- and we run that gauntlet every day, from the right and the left.

I don't want the goverment to say if the gays are immoral or moral behavior- that is up to me, I don't want the goverment instill patriotism, that is up to me- I just want them to teach a universal set of education guidelines that will be most condusive to my children getting into college, and getting into the workforce or being a succesfull business owner- no politics, no religion.

I'm sorry, rather than reexamine every post I hyperbolized. What I should have said is that an unusually high ratio of liberals (3 out of 5) have taken jabs at the words 'under God' considering it's not being debated.


The concepts we pledge to in the pledge of allegiance are ideals we should strive for as a nation. The United States has not always lived up to those ideals, but it has evolved over the decades and continues to do so as it recognizes ways to conform. From abolishing slavery, to allowing women to vote, to the civil rights movement, and beyond. By continuing to strive towards those ideals we have evolved for the better. Perhaps the pledge of allegiance in a small way has been a driving force in the evolution of our nation.

So your saying we're striving to socialists ideals? I pointed out earlier that the pledge was written by a Socialist who had utopian ideals in mind when writing. If this is the case, what's all this talk about Democracy for? If we can't agree on what the pledge means or stands for, how are 5 year olds?

Which "socialist ideal" is it that you oppose? Is it unity, tolerance, liberty, or justice? Is it wrong for people to choose to align themselves with these principles? Is it wrong for the United States to give people the opportunity to do so? I don't think so, nor does it seem like socialism.

Who is being forced to do things that maybe they don't want to do? The closest thing I can come up with is mandatory public education for most of America's kids. Perhaps this is where you should lay your concerns about socialism and utopian ideals.

I personally have no problem with any of those or some of the ideas behind Socialism for that matter. In fact, I'd probably add equality in there too, which has yet to make it into the pledge. However, Socialism has a certain stigma attached to it here in America. Want proof? Check out your sig. I think it's important that we realize that the ideals we're pledging to are Socialist, maybe then Socialism wont have such a negative connotation. How can we bash Socialism on the one hand and then use the other hand to cover our hearts and pledge to its ideals?

This is how I explain it to my kids, as if they couldn't figure it out for themselves: The pledge is a frivolous but innocuous tradition. Little kids like to memorize and recite stuff, whether it's The Muffin Man or the Pledge of Allegience. Nobody - teachers, kids, parents - expects it to be taken seriously. It's just something you do before morning announcements in school. Heck, my own home state has its own pledge. It's just a meaningless part of school routine.

Rituals aren't necessarily a bad thing. It's how our young become acculturated to our society and become more knowledgeable about what our government truly is about. The pledge is a statement of ideals, whose words are very important. Children may just mouth the platittudes, but at least to some extent, they are ingrained with what our nation is about.