Microsoft censors Chinese blogs


Microsoft is not the first internet company to comply with the Chinese in this manner.


It is America's capitalist ("free enterprise") system that has made it possible for Microsoft (and Yahoo) to succeed. Yet, in its continuing efforts to exploit new markets, Microsoft's corporate leaders are willing to knuckle under to Chinese pressure to eliminate words that convey the very system to which they owe their success.

Questions:

Do corporations have an ethical (if not legal) obligation to at least not restrict, if not actively promote, the ideals of American democracy to foreign markets such as China?

Has the corporate bottom line supplanted traditional American ideals as a priority?

Do corporations have an ethical (if not legal) obligation to at least not restrict, if not actively promote, the ideals of American democracy to foreign markets such as China?

I dont think so, and they never have before. We have been doing business with Saudi Arabia for nearly a century and have never 'promoted' American ideals there and have always complied with their politics and policies. Its just part of doing business.

This thing of promoting american ideals is a bit over the top. America is one of the youngest countries on the globe, its system is still in experimentation. It is not up to american businesses to force anything upon other countries.

I believe China has financed a huge portion of our national debt. Should they start telling us how we should live, what type products we must buy, or putting Chinese ideals on thier products to the US? Should chinese software be loaded with communist propaganda, because they believe in constant propaganda and americans should get a lesson?

China censors its citizens, Microsoft is going to comply with that censorship as they would (and probably are) to Saudi Arabia and who knows where else.

I suppose I should not be at all alarmed at the compromises American business practices elsewhere in the world, all the while lobbying Congresspeople in order to make sure legislation leaves them as unfettered and free from obligations as possible.

If China, with its abysmal human rights record (like Saudi Arabia), remains Most Favored Trading Partner with the United States and our government persists in winking at human rights abuses, I guess we shouldn't criticize a corporation that ignores these same conditions in its quest for profits.

PE,
I think its more a case of National Law. Chinese law prohibits talk about freedom and democracy, so Microsoft needs to comply. They could choose not to sell there and wait until chinese computer corporations make all their own stuff, but why Microsoft and not anyone else?

(For example: Its not against Chinese law to sell children into slavery of various sorts, yet Chinese businessmen cannot set up websites in the US selling children here, because it is against our laws.)

Recently China put a high bid (hostile takeover) for aquisition of Unocal (americas 9th largest oil producer). To waylay 'concerns' they offered to put up parts of Unocal under american 'management'.

"American companies must expand globally, but if we cut off people from coming into our country other countries will just block our companies from doing the same," Gheit said.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050624/D8ATU5RG0.html

Its global world so they say.

June 25, 2005


If not Microsoft, then IBM or both.

I dont take lightly either that China continues to buy up our debt and keep their own Yuan artificially low, which some say is crippling our work force.

Its also forcing us to HAVE TO play ball with China.


http://www.house.gov/tanner/press108-101.htm

PE, Im not sure we have much of a leg to stand on right now as far as human rights goes, what with our debt in the hands of the Chinese. We may stand on a moral high horse but as far as fiscal responsibity, we sold them the horse because they could feed it.

No. Corporations are private entities operating within the laws of a political body. When in China, Microsoft most comply to the laws and regulations the Chinese government has laid down for the governing of their people. It is not a companies right or obligation to promote American values.

Unless we are invited (or have an act of Congress (or if you are George Bush, God )) we have no business instilling our moral and political ideals on any person or body of persons. It is the right of every nation to operate without interference from another government or another nation's big business. When big business begins to share its good ole' American values with a nation that has not invited them to do anything but business it could be considered that they are conspiring to overthrow a government.

I would be concerned if Microsoft wasn't censoring the blogs. It could get them, and possibly America, in huge trouble. Civil war could erupt in China if the blogs were left as they were. Pro-freedom ideals could become widespread and the government would begin rounding them up. Factions would begin arming and within years the government could completely collapse. All because corporations got involved where big business should not become involved. I am pro separation of business and state.


As long as their is money to be made that will be at the top of any corporation's to do list. A company does not necessarily have ethics, they have goals. And when goals can be met by supplanted American ideals I believe any corporation will take up the gauntlet and do it.

According to Adam Smith the "bottom line" is the only reason the economy grows. People work for their inherent self interests (i.e. bottom line). Corporations have no legal obligation to promote any State's ideas. In fact a corporation can operate in any State it sees fit.

I agree that what is happening in China is terrible, but faced with the choice between no technology vs. restricted technology I would side for restricted. China will not be able suppress freedom forever.

So, China is calling the shots. And if a Chinese person tries to write "freedom", s/he will see: *** NOTICE: THIS WORD IS AGAINST THE LAW. FAILURE TO REMOVE IT WILL RESULT IN YOUR BEING REPORTED TO THE AUTHORITIES *** --or something to that effect. And Microsoft is okay with that.

As long as Microsoft realizes that if you're gonna dance, you've got to pay the piper, I guess it's okay.

But as China continues to build up its maritime fleet while it's continuing to pull the US's strings financially, it is altogether possible that someday we might end up speaking Chinese out of necessity.

I think the Chinese are being grossly underestimated by our government and being allowed too much power, part of that being at the behest of the all-too influential U.S. corporations.

Questions:

Do corporations have an ethical (if not legal) obligation to at least not restrict, if not actively promote, the ideals of American democracy to foreign markets such as China?

Has the corporate bottom line supplanted traditional American ideals as a priority?

This issue brings back a lot of memories, perhaps not all of them on topic, but, I’ll try to bring them together…

I recall the first time that I was persuaded to look at the Internet, and I contracted with an ISP. To put it in perspective, I had purchased my first computer before the invention of the mouse, it had a monochrome monitor, a dot matrix printer with tractor fed paper, and no graphics driver that I was aware of. I had used a “MAIL” function and a “PHONE” function (more accurately an IM function) over the companies “Intranet.” The Internet meant I might be able to e-mail a couple of family members who were also on the Internet. (I had a nephew whose resume at the time included working on the design teams for the new “Flying toaster” and “Lawn mower” screen savers.) My attempts to send or receive e-mails were routinely blocked by LORD_TORTOISE. (All user names at the time were required to be 8 characters, and I don’t know how he managed to create that name.) His censorship of language, context, spelling, grammar, etc. extended way beyond the limitations placed on members of Americas Debate. So, I listened to friends, took a class on the Internet at the local Junior College, found alternate ISPs. and I now have a couple thousand unread e-mail messages on any given day.

I had a friend whose job was basically to prepare annual statements for our common employer for up to ten years in the future showing:
what products we would be selling.
what raw materials we would be buying.
who our suppliers and customers would be.
what our labor costs and taxes would be.
etc.

I can envision that the 5 and 10 year business plans at both MSN and Yahoo include the concept that they will find a way to extract cash from Chinese users of home PCs and Laptops. They will also anticipate that these users will learn how to hack the Censor’s programs, purchase web space for offshore Blogs, and circumnavigate their government in an effort to speak of freedom, democracy, and free enterprise. I firmly believe that both companies’ long range plans envision that the Chinese government will have to adapt to the realities of the Internet, and not the other way around.

To wit, an unsuspecting Chinese government has essentially invited Tiger Woods to play golf, explained the course rules, and asked him how much he wants to wager on each hole. ($1 on the first hole, double or nothing on the 2nd, 3rd, etc. can sound very inexpensive until you lose 72 holes.) I don’t expect that a corporation the size of Microsoft went there planning to sell only a few software packages on a loss leader basis. Two of my computers were purchased with Windows ME. When MS quit supporting that program, my computers automatically downloaded software “fixes” which disabled them until I upgraded to Windows XP Home edition. A few years later, I suddenly have a large multicolored envelope between my desktop and my icons…and I notice that I have automatically downloaded Windows Service Pack 2. (I recall from farmers I have worked with, one definition of “service.”) It seems that my graphics card is no longer “supported” by Windows XP home edition, and perhaps now I would like to upgrade to Windows XP Professional edition… I can envision half a billion Chinese PC users waking up one day to find that there computers won’t work unless they upgrade their software. If the Chinese government can’t solve their problem, they will have to purchase the fix over the Internet, and the government won’t be in the position to dictate the terms.

(Posted without final editing under the threat of a thunderstorm.)

PE, there are words and phrases we are not allowed to type or read here on AD either as you so aptly put it. Even the slang for gluteous maximus is censored here, (as if theres anything more childish and ridiculous), I expect the software is built that way, to censor us.

So how do you think the Chinese government is going to allow its Internet users to debate the benefits of Freedom and Democracy in a totalitarian State of Comunism? And who would Microsoft be, either to tell Mike and Jaime that they cannot censor their site, or the Chinese government that they cannot censor what is ultimately under their control as well, their Internet?

Not so long ago we persecuted people for suposedly belonging to the Communist Party, they lost their jobs and life as they knew it, possibly just for knowing a communist, perhaps not even.

What makes THAT type of freedom so different from Chinas opression? After all we ran a nuclear arms race all about the two differing ideologies, so I think its a rather big deal.

Ill agree with you that we have big problems with China and that would be a great thread.

Do corporations have an ethical (if not legal) obligation to at least not restrict, if not actively promote, the ideals of American democracy to foreign markets such as China?

Do corporations have an ethical obligation not to produce their products in sweat shops that effectively enslave people? I think sweat shops do far worse things to people, then just takeing away their ability to discuss a few sensitive issues.

The bottom line is, there can be no ethics in the corporate world, because the corporate world is motivated only by profit. Only the government can enforce ethics (or lack of ethics in this case) through regulation.

Has the corporate bottom line supplanted traditional American ideals as a priority?

It did that long before this happened. Capitalism is productive, not ethical.

Are you implying that the Macarthur era in the US is in the same ballpark as Chinese oppresion? I could be interpreting that incorrectly.

China is a growing problem. Some of our Government's actions in relation to China (stolen military technology and Chinese donations in the Democrat party)the past 15 years is scary. Our trade policies are also annoying as well. It is fairly obvious that China is an emerging rival to the US. It will be interesting to see how the world reacts if China invades Taiwan. Will it be with the same indifference that the occupation in Tibet receives?

Im talking about the censorship of speech and limiting an individuals actions by government when it comes to ideologies, seen in their most extreme here during the cold war when we were VERY censored.

We have censorship now too, are checked up on frequently, what library books we read, what we type on our keyboards and what we say on the phone, and of course none of those naughty cursewords, bleep bleep! Photos of the realities of war, draped coffins, Guantanamo, Abu Graib? News pieces are written buy government paid journalists and op-ed pieces mass produced.
We even have a personal megaphone for the admin at Fox News. (Also read my signature) We are not so different in this sense. Try being an outspoken communist and see what happens.

I loved this from your article:


Oh yeah, hmm, sounds familiar too..

You seem to be latching on to the extreme examples that are prevalent on both sides of the political spectrum. I agree Fox News is a tool for Murdoch as much as I believe CNN was a tool of Ted Turner. The media has never presented an "objective" viewpoint. There appears to be this trend for cynical opposition to whoever is in charge. When Clinton was President he could do no right in the eyes of the Right and now Bush can do no right in the eyes of the Left.

China does not have as many energy sources as the US. China also has a terrible record with human rights. There are really no substantial comparisons that can be made between the two States. This idea that the US is an expansionist power is extreme rhetoric.