Full Version: Lawyers- is it an honorable profession?
There has been a great deal of discussion on the "big trials and legal cases" dealing with constitional law, and again on General debate about crime, gender about custody issues etc etc.
One of the most universally reviled proffesionals are lawyers as a group- no person would feel uncomfortable making a disparaging remark aimed at lawyers- I am reminded of the joke "What do you call a bus full of lawyers going off a cliff"- " a good start".
The flip side of this, is when you need a lawyer, he/she is your savior etc.
I notice in a great deal of the debates here, the debate is not neccesarily over what is right or just, but whether it is legal or not.
I have been to court a great many times, and every time I go, I get a little more disgusted with the whole proffesion, no matter what thier politics are, no matter where they sit in the court room.
I rarely get disagreement when I make a statement "lawyers are the primary cause of all problems in America" - and of all the profession in America, it is the only one I would like to see totally nationalized, and wealth redistributed. Take every penny Johnny Cochron or F.Lee Baily or Scalia or Kennedy or whomever has ever "earned" (pushing the use of the term, I don't think lawyers have ever really "earned" any money at all) and make them all public employees.
So, I ask, first:
1) Are lawyers as a profession harmful to our society, or do we give them to much power, or does the very fact that this profession tends to hold public office make them so powerful?
2) Is it an honorable profession to work in, and if yes, why, and if no, why?
3) How would you reform the legal profession in America?
3) Compared to other profesions, legal or not legal, how would you rate them- for instance, I would rate lawyers above those dealing drugs to children, but below a drug dealer that sells to only adults.
Or do you exalt the profession, rating them with Doctors and statesmen and such?
One of the most universally reviled proffesionals are lawyers as a group- no person would feel uncomfortable making a disparaging remark aimed at lawyers- I am reminded of the joke "What do you call a bus full of lawyers going off a cliff"- " a good start".
The flip side of this, is when you need a lawyer, he/she is your savior etc.
I notice in a great deal of the debates here, the debate is not neccesarily over what is right or just, but whether it is legal or not.
I have been to court a great many times, and every time I go, I get a little more disgusted with the whole proffesion, no matter what thier politics are, no matter where they sit in the court room.
I rarely get disagreement when I make a statement "lawyers are the primary cause of all problems in America" - and of all the profession in America, it is the only one I would like to see totally nationalized, and wealth redistributed. Take every penny Johnny Cochron or F.Lee Baily or Scalia or Kennedy or whomever has ever "earned" (pushing the use of the term, I don't think lawyers have ever really "earned" any money at all) and make them all public employees.
So, I ask, first:
1) Are lawyers as a profession harmful to our society, or do we give them to much power, or does the very fact that this profession tends to hold public office make them so powerful?
2) Is it an honorable profession to work in, and if yes, why, and if no, why?
3) How would you reform the legal profession in America?
3) Compared to other profesions, legal or not legal, how would you rate them- for instance, I would rate lawyers above those dealing drugs to children, but below a drug dealer that sells to only adults.
Or do you exalt the profession, rating them with Doctors and statesmen and such?
1) Are lawyers as a profession harmful to our society, or do we give them to much power, or does the very fact that this profession tends to hold public office make them so powerful?
Laws are the fabric of our society. Every society must have those who are specialized in how to read, interpret, defend, prosecute etc the LAW. As far as lawyers' power goes-- of course it is great. But that is because their specialization relates to the fabric of our society, the law.
Moreover, the power is great. Particularly these days because of the role the courts have taken on over the last half century. Our cultural and social issues are now being decided ultimately in the courts. There is the potential for great harm and great good.
2) Is it an honorable profession to work in, and if yes, why, and if no, why?
Lawyers are the most regulated professionals in this country. We are bound by extensive ethics rules in every jurisdiction. Rules that actually have teeth, unlike many of the other professions.
3) How would you reform the legal profession in America?
I think that law schools need to integrate the topics of ethics and morality better into their curriculum. I also think that law schools need to require more practical, clinical experience of their students. Law students should be required to take clinical courses that benefit the general public. Exs. Free legal aid clinics; Immigration rights clinics; Clinics specializing in helping people file income tax returns. etc.
3) Compared to other profesions, legal or not legal, how would you rate them- for instance, I would rate lawyers above those dealing drugs to children, but below a drug dealer that sells to only adults.
This is a nonsense question. It is unfathomable that any reasonable person could rate the legal profession on a par with drug dealers. It simply makes no sense.
Laws are the fabric of our society. Every society must have those who are specialized in how to read, interpret, defend, prosecute etc the LAW. As far as lawyers' power goes-- of course it is great. But that is because their specialization relates to the fabric of our society, the law.
Moreover, the power is great. Particularly these days because of the role the courts have taken on over the last half century. Our cultural and social issues are now being decided ultimately in the courts. There is the potential for great harm and great good.
2) Is it an honorable profession to work in, and if yes, why, and if no, why?
Lawyers are the most regulated professionals in this country. We are bound by extensive ethics rules in every jurisdiction. Rules that actually have teeth, unlike many of the other professions.
3) How would you reform the legal profession in America?
I think that law schools need to integrate the topics of ethics and morality better into their curriculum. I also think that law schools need to require more practical, clinical experience of their students. Law students should be required to take clinical courses that benefit the general public. Exs. Free legal aid clinics; Immigration rights clinics; Clinics specializing in helping people file income tax returns. etc.
3) Compared to other profesions, legal or not legal, how would you rate them- for instance, I would rate lawyers above those dealing drugs to children, but below a drug dealer that sells to only adults.
This is a nonsense question. It is unfathomable that any reasonable person could rate the legal profession on a par with drug dealers. It simply makes no sense.
1) Are lawyers as a profession harmful to our society, or do we give them to much power, or does the very fact that this profession tends to hold public office make them so powerful?
Lawyers are not necessarily harmful to our society, but legal access and power tends to get consolidated into the hands of the haves of our society and this is another way the super-wealthy in our society become more than equal.
There are ways around this. This is the difference between blanketing a profession and breaking the entire profession down to smaller numbers.
I don't think we give lawyers too much power. I think the legal power brokers tend to work most for an extremely narrow segment of society.
2) Is it an honorable profession to work in, and if yes, why, and if no, why?
Yes. But I think for the past twenty years most people have gone into law not for nobility but for the money. As a teacher I find it interesting how few people look at anything besides income when aspiring after a profession. The legal profession can be THE most noble and THE most despicable profession.
3) How would you reform the legal profession in America?
My reform would not be for lawyers but it is related. I would add some type of professional level to award settlements. I don't think the average person (i.e. me) can understand the actuary or what ever tables to assess the values the award for large settlements. I would like the jury to award a type of verdict and then have a professionally trained award service interpret that verdict to match up with a fair settlement.
3) Compared to other professions, legal or not legal, how would you rate them- for instance, I would rate lawyers above those dealing drugs to children, but below a drug dealer that sells to only adults.
Ha ha
Or do you exalt the profession, rating them with Doctors and statesmen and such?
um, I tend to group them with doctors and statesmen, but in my mind there is not too much exaltation that goes with this. They control access to power that effects us significantly but the average person often can;t afford the access. The crumbs we are left with are crummy or a crap shoot and make us more resentful of the profession.
Lawyers are not necessarily harmful to our society, but legal access and power tends to get consolidated into the hands of the haves of our society and this is another way the super-wealthy in our society become more than equal.
There are ways around this. This is the difference between blanketing a profession and breaking the entire profession down to smaller numbers.
I don't think we give lawyers too much power. I think the legal power brokers tend to work most for an extremely narrow segment of society.
2) Is it an honorable profession to work in, and if yes, why, and if no, why?
Yes. But I think for the past twenty years most people have gone into law not for nobility but for the money. As a teacher I find it interesting how few people look at anything besides income when aspiring after a profession. The legal profession can be THE most noble and THE most despicable profession.
3) How would you reform the legal profession in America?
My reform would not be for lawyers but it is related. I would add some type of professional level to award settlements. I don't think the average person (i.e. me) can understand the actuary or what ever tables to assess the values the award for large settlements. I would like the jury to award a type of verdict and then have a professionally trained award service interpret that verdict to match up with a fair settlement.
3) Compared to other professions, legal or not legal, how would you rate them- for instance, I would rate lawyers above those dealing drugs to children, but below a drug dealer that sells to only adults.
Ha ha
Or do you exalt the profession, rating them with Doctors and statesmen and such?
um, I tend to group them with doctors and statesmen, but in my mind there is not too much exaltation that goes with this. They control access to power that effects us significantly but the average person often can;t afford the access. The crumbs we are left with are crummy or a crap shoot and make us more resentful of the profession.
CR, be careful. The first thing that tyrants do when they come to power is to get rid of all the lawyers.
1) Are lawyers as a profession harmful to our society, or do we give them to much power, or does the very fact that this profession tends to hold public office make them so powerful?
In the vast majority of cases, I'd say good for the country. It makes sense to me to have our lawmakers coming from a profession that studies and practices the law. That's why I think techies make better data center managers than those who come from non-technical backgrounds -- yah gotta know the territory!
2) Is it an honorable profession to work in, and if yes, why, and if no, why?
I've used lawyers only three times in life so far, and without their help, I could not have accomplished the goals. Yes, one had questionable ideas about how to go about things, but I also had a say in how to go about things. I'm the customer, right?
3) How would you reform the legal profession in America?
Don't know enough to say. By my experience, it's actually the judges who swing things more by giving instructions to the jury or by making the decisions alone. Well, that's what I've heard anyway. In two of my experiences, no court time came of them. In the other, the judge went my way, so I have no complaints.
3) Compared to other profesions, legal or not legal, how would you rate them- for instance, I would rate lawyers above those dealing drugs to children, but below a drug dealer that sells to only adults.
That's pretty darn harsh, CR! Lighten up guy, when you need a lawyer's help, and you select one that works for your interests, it sure beats trying to push your own position alone.
Let me list a few areas where lawyers help the average person:
- Wrongful accusations from the police
- Marriage prenups and divorces
- Collecting money due from insurance companies (auto accident, work accident)
- Bankruptcies
- Living wills
- Regular wills
- Wrongful lawsuits against your property
- Reviewing contracts
- Composing contracts
- Settling disputes over property ownership
- Gaining compensation for wrongful firings
- Stopping workplace discrimination and harassment
I'm sure there are more services that the average person can employ from lawyers, and yes, I put them at least on the same level as doctors. There are crooked doctors out there as well, and I've tried to get service from some during my life. Overall though, the two professions have more good folks than bad.
1) Are lawyers as a profession harmful to our society, or do we give them to much power, or does the very fact that this profession tends to hold public office make them so powerful?
In the vast majority of cases, I'd say good for the country. It makes sense to me to have our lawmakers coming from a profession that studies and practices the law. That's why I think techies make better data center managers than those who come from non-technical backgrounds -- yah gotta know the territory!
2) Is it an honorable profession to work in, and if yes, why, and if no, why?
I've used lawyers only three times in life so far, and without their help, I could not have accomplished the goals. Yes, one had questionable ideas about how to go about things, but I also had a say in how to go about things. I'm the customer, right?
3) How would you reform the legal profession in America?
Don't know enough to say. By my experience, it's actually the judges who swing things more by giving instructions to the jury or by making the decisions alone. Well, that's what I've heard anyway. In two of my experiences, no court time came of them. In the other, the judge went my way, so I have no complaints.
3) Compared to other profesions, legal or not legal, how would you rate them- for instance, I would rate lawyers above those dealing drugs to children, but below a drug dealer that sells to only adults.
That's pretty darn harsh, CR! Lighten up guy, when you need a lawyer's help, and you select one that works for your interests, it sure beats trying to push your own position alone.
Let me list a few areas where lawyers help the average person:
- Wrongful accusations from the police
- Marriage prenups and divorces
- Collecting money due from insurance companies (auto accident, work accident)
- Bankruptcies
- Living wills
- Regular wills
- Wrongful lawsuits against your property
- Reviewing contracts
- Composing contracts
- Settling disputes over property ownership
- Gaining compensation for wrongful firings
- Stopping workplace discrimination and harassment
I'm sure there are more services that the average person can employ from lawyers, and yes, I put them at least on the same level as doctors. There are crooked doctors out there as well, and I've tried to get service from some during my life. Overall though, the two professions have more good folks than bad.
QUOTE(AuthorMusician @ Jun 26 2005, 08:32 AM)
CR, be careful. The first thing that tyrants do when they come to power is to get rid of all the lawyers.
1) Are lawyers as a profession harmful to our society, or do we give them to much power, or does the very fact that this profession tends to hold public office make them so powerful?
In the vast majority of cases, I'd say good for the country. It makes sense to me to have our lawmakers coming from a profession that studies and practices the law. That's why I think techies make better data center managers than those who come from non-technical backgrounds -- yah gotta know the territory!
2) Is it an honorable profession to work in, and if yes, why, and if no, why?
I've used lawyers only three times in life so far, and without their help, I could not have accomplished the goals. Yes, one had questionable ideas about how to go about things, but I also had a say in how to go about things. I'm the customer, right?
3) How would you reform the legal profession in America?
Don't know enough to say. By my experience, it's actually the judges who swing things more by giving instructions to the jury or by making the decisions alone. Well, that's what I've heard anyway. In two of my experiences, no court time came of them. In the other, the judge went my way, so I have no complaints.
3) Compared to other profesions, legal or not legal, how would you rate them- for instance, I would rate lawyers above those dealing drugs to children, but below a drug dealer that sells to only adults.
That's pretty darn harsh, CR! Lighten up guy, when you need a lawyer's help, and you select one that works for your interests, it sure beats trying to push your own position alone.
Let me list a few areas where lawyers help the average person:
- Wrongful accusations from the police
- Marriage prenups and divorces
- Collecting money due from insurance companies (auto accident, work accident)
- Bankruptcies
- Living wills
- Regular wills
- Wrongful lawsuits against your property
- Reviewing contracts
- Composing contracts
- Settling disputes over property ownership
- Gaining compensation for wrongful firings
- Stopping workplace discrimination and harassment
I'm sure there are more services that the average person can employ from lawyers, and yes, I put them at least on the same level as doctors. There are crooked doctors out there as well, and I've tried to get service from some during my life. Overall though, the two professions have more good folks than bad.
1) Are lawyers as a profession harmful to our society, or do we give them to much power, or does the very fact that this profession tends to hold public office make them so powerful?
In the vast majority of cases, I'd say good for the country. It makes sense to me to have our lawmakers coming from a profession that studies and practices the law. That's why I think techies make better data center managers than those who come from non-technical backgrounds -- yah gotta know the territory!
2) Is it an honorable profession to work in, and if yes, why, and if no, why?
I've used lawyers only three times in life so far, and without their help, I could not have accomplished the goals. Yes, one had questionable ideas about how to go about things, but I also had a say in how to go about things. I'm the customer, right?
3) How would you reform the legal profession in America?
Don't know enough to say. By my experience, it's actually the judges who swing things more by giving instructions to the jury or by making the decisions alone. Well, that's what I've heard anyway. In two of my experiences, no court time came of them. In the other, the judge went my way, so I have no complaints.
3) Compared to other profesions, legal or not legal, how would you rate them- for instance, I would rate lawyers above those dealing drugs to children, but below a drug dealer that sells to only adults.
That's pretty darn harsh, CR! Lighten up guy, when you need a lawyer's help, and you select one that works for your interests, it sure beats trying to push your own position alone.
Let me list a few areas where lawyers help the average person:
- Wrongful accusations from the police
- Marriage prenups and divorces
- Collecting money due from insurance companies (auto accident, work accident)
- Bankruptcies
- Living wills
- Regular wills
- Wrongful lawsuits against your property
- Reviewing contracts
- Composing contracts
- Settling disputes over property ownership
- Gaining compensation for wrongful firings
- Stopping workplace discrimination and harassment
I'm sure there are more services that the average person can employ from lawyers, and yes, I put them at least on the same level as doctors. There are crooked doctors out there as well, and I've tried to get service from some during my life. Overall though, the two professions have more good folks than bad.
I need to work on the quote thing- but there is alot here I would like to address- for instance- alot of the problems you list, are problems created by lawyers, so of course, they are the only ones to fix them. Composing contracts? I would say that is probably the most benign of the lawyer-ing jobs, - but, property ownership? Look at the recent USSC decision on private property ownership, and how the problems came about in the first place!
Some lawyer decided he found a legal loophole to take someones property in New London, and then exploited it! The law itself was drafted BY a lawyer- it is one of those "chicken and egg" issues- Why does one need all those wills? so one smart lawyer can't steal from another smart lawyer?
hayleyanne- "Lawyers are the most regulated professionals in this country"- Regulations written by lawyers and "enforced" by lawyers- talk about the fox watching the hen house?
To me, the Lawyer profession started out as a very un-prestigous profession by out founding fathers, they made it legitimate, and then the profit motive made it evil.
Why do we have an equal justice system in this country? You have to have money in this country to recieve justice- because, if you are not rich, you can not afford enough lawyers to represent you. I have seen this personally hundreds of times- we don't have justice in this country because of lawyers.
For instance- a personal example- we had a poor black man kill a popular white cop here in Alaska about 15 or so years ago- he was taking pot shots in the air, aiming at no particular person, and the cop basically stepped in front of the bullet. He got 99 years+ for that murder. He had a public defender, and the public defender only had 15 minutes of actual face to face time with this man- because of the work load of the public defenders office.
Another wealthy rich white man stabbed his wife to death in front of his children with a knife- he was in a psych institute for 2 years, then he was "stable" after which he recieved custody of his children. His lawyer had him only for a client for the nearly year before court.
This is a situation created 100% by lawyers- there is no other profession to blame.
Pretty much every injustice, every bad thing that our society is today, can be traced back to the legal profession.
The only way to reform our country, and get us back to prosperity and justice, is to reform the legal system. Justice and what is right SHOULD be a universal right in this country, it should not even be open to debate- but, because of the power of lawyers, we can not EVER obtain it under the current system.
My reforms?
1) Lawyers would be constitutionally barred from holding office.
2) No such thing as a "private" lawyer- the profit motive is 180 degrees out from having a fair legal system- they would all be public employees. Thier salaries wold be tied to case load- too high a case load, salaries go up, becomes more atractive to become a lawyer.
3) A corporation or rich person can not have more legal advice than the person bringing the suit- you want to have six lawyers? Well then, you have to pay for six lawyers for the opposition.
4) Public defenders budgets will be equal to prosecution budgets- with it's own police force investigating the investigators- in other words, those police will get every shred of material collected by the prosecuting police, and then investigate on thier own to see if the conclusions are true.
5) Lawyers assigned by random lottery for litigation- you don't get to pick you lawyer. Want to sue someone? Roll the dice and hope you get a good one!
Then, with this egaltarian assignment of lawyers and legal assets- then we could have a "loser pays" clause that is fair, but really, only after something like that is enacted- because tort reform will only be good for rich bad guys as long as they have more access to legal help than the victim.
I definately find most profession more honorable than the current legal system we have-
I would definately say a prostitute/drug dealer to adults is more honorable than a supreme court judge- she/he renders an agreed on service for money between consenting adults in a fair manner, for a price and service both agree on without subterfuge, while a lawyers's entire profession is based on trying to bend the truth and decieve others into coming to thier point of view- a very dishonorable practise.
So, I ask, first:
QUOTE
1) Are lawyers as a profession harmful to our society, or do we give them to much power, or does the very fact that this profession tends to hold public office make them so powerful?
QUOTE
2) Is it an honorable profession to work in, and if yes, why, and if no, why?
I believe they are extremely beneficial. All too often, I think we get caught up in decisions that on the face of it look wrong, but then again, we don't get to see the evidence and other obscure information that allowed them to form the decision that they came to. Suppression of evidence and other "tricks" perhaps disgust others, but it's a good check when police departments plant evidence(L.A. ramparts division anyone?) and that kind of thing.
3) How would you reform the legal profession in America?
Expand pay for county defense lawyers, so that they don't have to become peasants to provide equality before the law. I'd also have term limits on county attorneys and defense lawyers. Other than that, I wouldn't change much.
QUOTE
3) Compared to other profesions, legal or not legal, how would you rate them- for instance, I would rate lawyers above those dealing drugs to children, but below a drug dealer that sells to only adults. Or do you exalt the profession, rating them with Doctors and statesmen and such?
Pretty harsh opinion there!.
Actually, I rank them up there with doctors, teachers, and counselors in all honesty. Of all the professions, I am most jealous of them. I have contemplated law school myself and I love to read through supreme court decisions, it just gets my blood racing. While I haven't been to court over any matters, I have been there for support of relatives and friends. I have to say that I admire their work in trying to logically provide a winning case for their clients. The whole scene fascinates me in all honesty. I'd have to say in the cases that I've seen, justice has been served.
You guys are pretty right when you say that there are more good lawyers than bad ones. There is one approach that would be pretty effective though for weeding out the bad lawyers. Institute the "Loser Pays" system.
It would work the following way. If somebody brings a lawsuit, whoever loses the lawsuit would be required to pay the winner's legal fees, if the loser had NO evidence to back up his/her position. If the loser can't afford to pay, then the loser's lawyer would have to pay. Not only would this discourage dishonest people from filing lawsuits, this would also discourage lawyers from teaming up with dishonest people.
Now I know this seems a little simplistic. Some details probably should be added. For instance, if someone does have evidence but still loses, that person should not be required to pay the winner's legal fees. Especially if the winner happens to be a large corporation.
It would work the following way. If somebody brings a lawsuit, whoever loses the lawsuit would be required to pay the winner's legal fees, if the loser had NO evidence to back up his/her position. If the loser can't afford to pay, then the loser's lawyer would have to pay. Not only would this discourage dishonest people from filing lawsuits, this would also discourage lawyers from teaming up with dishonest people.
Now I know this seems a little simplistic. Some details probably should be added. For instance, if someone does have evidence but still loses, that person should not be required to pay the winner's legal fees. Especially if the winner happens to be a large corporation.
1) It is necessary to have experts in the field of interpreting the law. But laws themselves are often problematics and convoluted and can be manipulated and contorted to outrageous degrees. So much so that it sparks animosity toward the legal system and the profession of lawyers in general. Ask anyone who has ever been gotten over by the cozening of justice in a court of law. I believe too much power is vested within lawyers and furthermore, in judges. Great faults can be committed which decide the fates of peoples lives by those holding the title of arbiter who themselves possess poor judgment, but have honed credentials which "qualify" them to either ruin or save lives.
2) Honor is something I'm tentative to equate with the legal profession. Someone with the financial means can evade punishment for great crimes by the silver-tongues of their legal agents whereas someone in the right may lose a case on which their fate is contingent because they were unable to afford adequate representation. And sadly, the financial aspect greatly dictates the outcome of many cases. Right and wrong are too often absent in a realm where they should take precident above all else.
3a) For one, in class action suits which are often fallacious and time draining, the accusser, in the event that judgement turns against them, should cover the expenses of trial for the defendant entirely. I am too foreign to the realm of law to specify any alterations, but from limited knowledge, I'd call for some type of reform due to the many inconveniences and financial setbacks my father suffered due to an impartial judge in the course of his 5+ year dispute with his demonic ex-wife who's rich husband afforded superior legal representation which my father could not match.
3b) I would hardly exalt a profession in which morals are subject to the mangling of facts and truth and the regard for human life is reduced to a formality of financial profit. But again, the blade has two edges. "There is the potential for great harm and great good". But in my experience, the harm done eclispes the good. Oftentimes, I believe, the ancient maxim holds true: it's the 99% of bad lawyers that give the 1% a bad name.
2) Honor is something I'm tentative to equate with the legal profession. Someone with the financial means can evade punishment for great crimes by the silver-tongues of their legal agents whereas someone in the right may lose a case on which their fate is contingent because they were unable to afford adequate representation. And sadly, the financial aspect greatly dictates the outcome of many cases. Right and wrong are too often absent in a realm where they should take precident above all else.
3a) For one, in class action suits which are often fallacious and time draining, the accusser, in the event that judgement turns against them, should cover the expenses of trial for the defendant entirely. I am too foreign to the realm of law to specify any alterations, but from limited knowledge, I'd call for some type of reform due to the many inconveniences and financial setbacks my father suffered due to an impartial judge in the course of his 5+ year dispute with his demonic ex-wife who's rich husband afforded superior legal representation which my father could not match.
3b) I would hardly exalt a profession in which morals are subject to the mangling of facts and truth and the regard for human life is reduced to a formality of financial profit. But again, the blade has two edges. "There is the potential for great harm and great good". But in my experience, the harm done eclispes the good. Oftentimes, I believe, the ancient maxim holds true: it's the 99% of bad lawyers that give the 1% a bad name.
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