Dennis Rader’s chilling, matter-of-fact retelling of the details of his murders makes me wonder what causes a person turn into a monster. He looks like a regular, middle-aged Schmoe; pudgy, balding, living a unremarkable life in an unremarkable Midwestern town…until you know what he did. I think about his wife and family – didn’t they realize something was not right about him? It makes my skin crawl to think that these monsters walk among us, and we don’t even recognize them for what they are.




I believe parents play a role in “nurturing” the budding serial killer, either by abusing their children physically and psychologically, which tells the child that violence is a first resort to any difficulties they may face in life; or by withholding love and affection (oddly enough, many serial killers’ first victim is Mom). I think that repressing children’s natural curiosity about sexuality is also harmful, as it teaches them that sex is shameful and bad. I believe Americans are unique in this respect. Conversely, inappropriate sexual behavior in front of a child can also warp his sense of sexuality. Reading the history of serial killers’ upbringing, while not excusing their aberrant behavior, is an exercise in jaw-dropping cruelty.

I know it’s incredibly unpopular to speculate, but I believe uber-religiosity can play a role in pushing an already disturbed mind over the edge. After all, BTK was a devout Christian, maintained a “tight Christian control” over his family, and was a leader in his church for many years. What I can't believe is that his wife was as surprised as anyone about him being the BTK killer. My question is this: how in the world did this woman sleep with this monster for 30 years, and never have a freakin’ clue?!

Some questions for discussion:

Why does America produce so many serial killers?

What factors make America so “unique” that it produces more serial killers than other countries?

Serial killers are by nature thrill seekers. Americans have a reputation for thrill-seeking. Is there a correlation?

Does America’s prudish approach to sex and all things sexual play a role in twisting the minds of individuals who pervert the normal act of sex with the abnormal act of murder? To what degree?

How can we (and should we) identify aberrant behavior (sociopathy, psychopathy) in children before it turns deadly?

Some questions for discussion:

Why does America produce so many serial killers?
I do not have sufficient information to answer that question here. I do not believe it is religious as you have speculated above. If that were the case country's with highly devout Catholic populations would have higher serial killer rates.

What factors make America so “unique” that it produces more serial killers than other countries?
This is pure speculation but the US is a large place and perhaps these freaks feel like they can blend into the landscape.

Ted Bundy mentioned that when he was in prison all the prisoners shared one thing in common before they became criminals. They all had an intense addiction to pornography. Bundy thought that his appetite for porn fueled his murders. This is one of those areas in the culture that is changing quickly and we do not know how easy access to porn is affecting people. 15 years ago it was difficult to purchase porn anonymously so a lot of people stayed away from it. With the internet it is readily accessible.

Obviously, serial killers have been around a long time so porn is not the soul contributor, but I believe it has a role. There are also other cultural damage caused by porn that is off topic and I will not go into at this time.

Pornography may play a role (I would venture to say that it would be more due to the realm of sadistic porn, not mainstream), but consider that even the most violent rape/murder is not about sex – it’s about power and domination over the victim. And how many Americans view porn without ever killing anyone? A whole heckuva lot, if you consider some of the following statistics:

I still maintain that warping a child's natural curiosity about sex by telling them it's wrong, or unnatural, or that they'll go to hell for thinking "bad thoughts" is far more dangerous.

The only problem with your theory is that the US has not become a more "prudish" place since 1960.


There are tons of theories about what starting happening in the 60's to start the trend. The above quote is from an article pinning the blame on urban sprawl. There is also a rebuttal on the article. The US is a much more progressive place than it was fifty years ago so the religious aspect does not add up. I do however believe it plays a role.

There are a whole series of cultural changes that have taken place since 1960 including increased drug use, both illegal and legal. I would agree that this phenomena is worth studying. Such a rapid increase is dangerous.

So many theories without any corroborating evidence.

I think the "rise" in serial killers is due to media exposure. These freaks have been around forever (is my opinion) but are no longer able to move around from place to place to conceal their crimes. That's my theory (again, no corroboration).

The angle about religion and sexual repression is false to me. Muslim countries are almost all much more sexually repressing AND religiously zealous. And yet, Muslim countries don't seem to have serial killers running around (that we know of...)

Many of the assumptions in the questions for debate are unsubstantiated or based upon hearsay or anecdotal evidence. Not much of it is convincing.

Why does America produce so many serial killers?

I think we identify them more easily. I also think that people are much freer to be secretive in the US than in other countries, which gives more freedom to plan and carry out things like this. We also have a greater freedom of movement.

Serial killers are by nature thrill seekers. Americans have a reputation for thrill-seeking. Is there a correlation?

Is there documentation that serial killers are "thrill seekers"? They certainly have abnormal tastes and desires. Some may kill for the thrill of the hunt or the challenge, but I doubt that is the core reason. I don't see a correlation here at all.

I would think if repression of sexuality was a leading cause that fundamentalist Islamic countries would have more than their share of serial killers. More likely serial killing is a reaction to a transitory, rather libetine society where women are making great strides to equality. The male has the power in a fundamentalist Islamic society. Thus, no sense of powerlessness, no need to kill that gal in a burkha who is suppossed to be in the company of a relative whenever she leaves the house anyhow.

Well obviously because he never killed any one in their bed...

What do you suppose should have tipped her off? his manic snoring?


Because, at its heart, America is a violent society I suppose. I can only compare my perception of America with my expereince of Denmark or England and I have always found England to be a violent society as well, but when compared to America, even England seems tame. The level of adoration for guns, the complexity of the ethnic mixture and the stark differences between rich and poor all seem to come together to produce very 'hard' attitudes amongst Americans that look upon violence as legitimate and that I just don't see here in Denmark... at least not any more.

Our history contains periods where violence was regarded as appropriate behaviour and glorified because it got results (for those committing that violence) and any reading of the old saga's shows that the old nordic people's were once rife with psychotic behaviour and that society as a whole, while lamenting the deaths, still looked upon violence as an appropriate course of action.

What happened to that attitude over the centuries, I can't even guess... I suppose since a lot of the more violent people left Denmark to colonise England, and later America, perhaps you've all inherited our most violent genes?

What I know is that today, Denmark is a very safe place when compared to England and America and its not safe because we built a lot of prisons or because we own a lot of guns. We do have serial killers but these are very rare, perhaps one a decade? I'm not sure.

If there is anything to suggest by a direct comparison between America and Denmark (taking the size differences into account) then it must be the attitude towards what is generally acceptable with regards to violence, and all the aspects of violence.


No, I don't think so. I think all people are thrill seekers really.


Perhaps, but I don't know if its that simple. I'd guess that suppressed sexual frustration is a major motivator for psychopaths, but I'd be very surprised to learn it was the cause of their mental state. My understanding is pyshopathic behaviour has its roots in childhood and is nearly always connected to the relationship with the psycopaths parents or other adults of authority in the psychopaths childhood. I think perhaps sexuality plays a part in how this will later manifest itself because sexuality is the foundation upon which our minds are built.

Also, there are many other nations with far more radical attitudes towards sex and we don't see the numbers of psychopaths beinf reflected in the same manner in these countries.
Though, on the other hand, this could be simply because in a nation like Saudi Arabia (for example) sexual frustration can be taken out on womem a lot easier (I would imagine)


We should all relax and stop being so uptight about so many social and religious aspects of life. Most of all, we should avoid a culture of violence and make sure our children do not learn that violence is any sort of a solution to a problem.

I doubt we can ever stop children from being subjected to what ever influences create serial killers but we can at least try.

What, you want I should do all the heavy lifting for you? It was noted in many of the sources I used and REFERENCED in my initial post. From the Crime Library (which is a wealth of info on the sick and twisted in society):

Why else do serial killers kill, if not for the thrill? What is your hypothesis?

So much defensiveness...what's up with that? I provided only a small snapshot of the facts. If you dispute them, by all means, provide your own.

I'm not sure that is really the answer. After all sometime violence is the solution to the problem. I feel the real trouble lies with children not being taught critical thinking and therefore can't distinguish between justified and non-justified violence.

I don't think we have a high serial killer rate because of our culture perse, even if America is more desensitized to violence compared to other countries it is clear that the actions of serial killers and the like are not acceptable in American society.

American society also has a strong taboo against harming the "weak" (children, women, the elderly) and yet this doesn't stop serial killers.

I think it may have to do more with a growing "culture of anonymity" people don't feel a connection with their community and therefore have far less guilt in harming its members.

Which is why your society has such high violent crime rates.


And neither it seems can your president.

Violence is NEVER the solution to the problem but for as long as your culture, your artists and even your political leadership entertains the notion that in 'some cases' violence is a viable option then you will continue to see violence being used as a viable option and all talk of children not being able to distinguish between justified and non-justified violence is simply missing the point.

American art is full to the brim with 'justified violence'. Whether it is a poor set upon Vietnam vet who strikes back against evil oppressors, a US agent trying to stop nasty terrorists who are going to detonate a nuclear bomb in a US city or just a rapper whining about the LAPD and threatening to kill a cop in retaliation, the effect is the same. For the audience, the lesson is simple. Here in the USA we shoot first and (maybe) ask questions later and violence is a perfectly justified response when your being 'picked on'*.

Your culture is violent like no other since ancient Rome. Not only do you have your daily fill of real life murders and serial killers but you then make myriad films about them. You make TV shows about them and about the forensics of murder.
Ever watched one of the programmes called 'CSI' and asked yourself what is so entertaining about the blood spattered corpses and gun shot murder victim's remains that it must be used to entertain the masses? Ever watched 'The Sopranos' and wondered why am I watching a show about these murdering criminals? Whats the entertainment value in all this?


Yeah, well thats like saying, sure, you can own and play with guns, but murder is illegal.

The truth is, your not 'more desensitized to violence compared to other countries' because most other countries are subject to the same American culture that so glorifies violence. The difference is, as a nation, you all seem to believe it.

Apparently, the nation of the USA, like those children you say 'can't distinguish between justified and non-justified violence' is not able to understand the simple concept that violence, begets violence

...regardless of how 'justified' you think it is.


It doesn't stop you from bombing them in other countries though does it?

You may think you have a strong taboo against such violence, but since you already admit to believing that sometimes violence is the solution to the problem then obviously sometimes harming the "weak" (children, women, the elderly) is 'the solution'.

From my perspective this is already the rationál of a psychopath.


I don't think so because that particular problem is equally valid in Europe and we just don't see that many serial murderers here.


*a point of view apparently so ingrained in your society that according to GW Bush, its valid even when you only think your being picked on.

After reading a bit about the top serial killers, I'd say that serial killing is strongly linked with sexual deficiency. In almost every case, the killer was unable to "perform" in the traditional sense of the term and used the killings as a stimulus.

As far as the land of the Serial killers goes, it has been published that the area around Rostov-on-Don in Russia is the land of serial killers. Newsweek published in 1999 that 29 serial killers and/or rapists have been caught in that area in the past decade (the 1990s), making it the serial killer capital of the world. Andrei Chikatilo is among the most prolific serial killers of all time (at least 52 victims).

I still feel that serial killers probably exist everywhere there are vulnerable victims, which means everywhere. People just need to be more aware of these possibilities (just like child molestation) and organize their local lynch mob .

Moif, I understand and can relate to your loathing of guns and the gun culture, but the irony here is that most serial killers don't use a gun to commit their crimes (yes, before Amlord corrects me, there are some). Generally, the serial killer uses a more intimate killing implement, such as hands, ligature or knife. I'm guilty of enjoying the gory CSI, and am addicted to the crime fiction genre. Does that mean I'm a violent person? No.

I can relate to this sentiment DaffyGrl. I have read over sixty books on serial killers and I have thoroughly enjoyed each and every one of them. Including each bloody description of every single case study. However that does not in any way mean I am going to take up the gauntlet where Wayne Williams or Jesse Pomeroy left off and go become one of the most infamous serial killers the nation has ever known.

The only thing I can say in response to serial killers and guns is the fact that I have only read of Zodiac using guns. It is my understanding that serial killers use guns as protection and an implement to capture a victim between kills. Spree killers (mass murderers) use guns, anyone heard of J. Huberty ?

Some questions for discussion:

Why does America produce so many serial killers?

What factors make America so “unique” that it produces more serial killers than other countries?

Serial killers are by nature thrill seekers. Americans have a reputation for thrill-seeking. Is there a correlation?

Does America’s prudish approach to sex and all things sexual play a role in twisting the minds of individuals who pervert the normal act of sex with the abnormal act of murder? To what degree?

How can we (and should we) identify aberrant behavior (sociopathy, psychopathy) in children before it turns deadly?

[/quote]
America does seem to have its fair share of psychotic killers, I agree. Our free and open society allows for people to move relatively unimpeded throughout the country, thus increasing opportunity. And I believe that our justice system seeks out these killers more doggedly than any other country. Does America have more killers, per capita than other countries. No, I remember reading about Russian and European killers with HUNDREDS of victims per person. So we have different types of killers, maybe more, not as prolific.

I do not see a correlation between thrill seekers and serial killers. THe Green River Killer was a truck painter, BTK was a code inspector, Jeffrey Dahmer was a hack at a chocolate factory, these are boring, average people who didn't "seek thrills". THey were losers who felt no power in normal society so they struck out in the only way their diseased minds could think of, by hurting and killing others.

As for America's prudish approach to sex, that is a fallacy. Maybe 30 years ago, but when I see Paris Hilton slutted up on network commericals, movie studios pushing the PG-13 ratings ever more to the edge of the envelope, frankly any young man can get access to sex any time in today's America. If anything we should turn back the clock and clamp down on the rampant sexual images bombarding todays youth.

Maybe part of the problem is that some in America tend to label people with good, honest blue collar jobs, such as auto painter, code inspector and factory worker as losers.

I cannot find the topic i once started on serial killers here at AD. I believe it had references to some facts about these monsters.

Sexually repressive and guilt inducing techniques from "mom" seem to be a common thread. "You're a dirty Boy"

another is that "mom" seems to enforce a sense of inadequacy in their children so they grow up with an almost unbreakable sense of powerlessness.

Because they are treated so by "mom" most will have a deep seated rage at "mother" that is suppressed. This is why the mother as 1st victim is found. Then once they break through that powerlessness they often continue on. Even when they do not kill mother, she is the key element for their future passions. Thus women become their targets. Its not so much that they are female but that they are often supposed to be weaker and therefore subservient to be dominated. Often the inadequacy they feel will be blamed on these women--who are accused of feeling superior or better than the SK and so must be taught a lesson.

In several cases I believe a certain section of their brains has been found to be either atrophied or even "missing" often meaning destroyed by disease or illness--often when young.

Its all about power and dominance--often the sexual thrill occurs during acts which "signify" their forced dominance over their vicitim.

Several of the present days well known serial killers were either born in or raised in Ohio--really aren't Ohioans almost stereotypically the quiet types in our society:lol:

These types are all over the world--but we also seem to seek out sensational stories such as theirs and I would suggest perhaps our penchant for celebrity worship may cause the "weaker minded" less disciplined of the Serial Killers to deliberately try to get caught.
After all--the BTK killer would never had been caught had he not deliberately given up the info needed to "find" him.

Every year all over the world large amounts of people go "missing". Consider that the really talented Serial Killers probably never even leave enough of a pattern to even have a loose profile created. As we continue to live in a world where our every action can be traced and anonymity becomes impossible I would guess that the "numbers" of these killers will "rise"--and be blamed on liberals and conservatives depending on your evening propaganda source--and we will learn that there are more than we imagined.


Hugo. Consider that these jobs often don't pay enough to live in an affluent way. They command no power. I would think this could easily help tip these already turbulent personalties over the edge. Inadequacy after all is a commom thread in SK types.

DaffyGrl, you can find many of your answers at www.crimelibrary.com, a pretty good resource and highly addictive site for those interested in true crime. But I wouldn't recommend reading some of the stories before bedtime.


I have to disagree with Moif that the USA has so many serial killers than Denmark due to violent nature.



Do you really think what motivates a Jeffrey Dahmer, John Gacy or even a Charles Manson is a feeling that says, "America is a bloody and violent nation so I'm going to be bloody violent?| Serial killers may possess genius I.Q's, hold respectable jobs and look like they're living the American Dream, but inwardly they are sick sociopaths who revel in their acts of depravity, sadism and murder. Most people aren't like that. Is America creating more serial and spree killers than before? Maybe and maybe with our fascination with this type of crime we're hearing more about it.

But blaming it on sex and violence (and occasionally rock n' roll) doesn't work. Serial killers know no borders. The pedophile ring in France. Pedro Lopez, "the Monster of the Andes" may have killed 300 children! One size fits all solutions usually don't. The professionals haven't come up with an infallable profile. Amateurs such as ourselves certainly can't.

Serial killers have tested out a number of excuses for their behavior. Henry Lee Lucas blamed his upbringing; others like Jeffrey Dahmer say that they were born with a "part" of them missing. Ted Bundy claimed pornography made him do it. Herbert Mullin, Santa Cruz killer of thirteen, blamed the voices in his head that told him it was time to "sing the die song." The ruthless Carl Panzram swore that prison turned him into a monster, while Bobby Joe Long said a motorcycle accident made him hypersexual and eventually a serial lust killer. The most psychopathic, like John Wayne Gacy, turn the blame around and boast that the victims deserved to die.

They must be insane -- what normal person could slaughter another human, for the sheer pleasure of it? Yet the most chilling fact about serial killers is that they are rational and calculating. As the "British Jeffrey Dahmer" Dennis Nilsen put it, "a mind can be evil without being abnormal."

• A minimum of three to four victims, with a "cooling off" period in between;

• The killer is usually a stranger to the victim -- the murders appear unconnected or random;

• The murders reflect a need to sadistically dominate the victim;

• The murder is rarely "for profit"; the motive is psychological, not material;

• The victim may have "symbolic" value for the killer; method of killing may reveal this meaning;

• Killers often choose victims who are vulnerable (prostitutes, runaways, etc.)

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers..._1.html?sect=19

Many of us get angry when somebody cuts us off in traffic or gets in the 12-items-or-less lane at the grocery with a cart full of crap. Most of us don't follow that person home and beat them to death with a claw hammer. Serial killers don't make that kind of distinction. The moral codes that ground most people are only part of the facade of boring normalcy these predators hide behind until they are ready to cast it aside and kill.



1. My short answer is where there are prey there will always be predators. The wide open spaces and the freedom to move about without restriction makes this country a fertile hunting ground.

2. and 3. America isn't unique. It's big. It struggles between the desire to express itself freely yet maintain some semblance of order and law. Killers, like terrorists, take advantage of the nation's strengths and virtue and finds the weaknesses within.

4. It would be tempting to make the correlation between sexual repression and serial killing, but there are too many examples of people who had active sex lives who still needed an outlet for their sexual sadism, perversions and fetishes. I think you have to look at every situation on a case-by-case basis.

5. Here's a good reply.

Are the psychopathic criminals really different from birth? Many parents say that their children who grow up to be violent offenders are markedly different from their non-violent siblings. Three-year-old Ted Bundy sneaked into his teenage aunt Julia's room one morning, and slipped butcher knives under the covers of her bed. "He just stood there and grinned," she said. Serial killer Carl Panzram himself wrote: "All of my family are as the average human beings are. They are honest and hard working people. All except myself. I have been a human-animile ever since I was born. When I was very young at 5 or 6 years of age I was a thief and a lier and a mean despisable one at that. The older I got the meaner I got." German child killer Peter Kurten had drowned two playmates by the tender age of nine.

Are these children just born bad? Environment alone cannot explain deranged behavior -- too many abused and neglected children grow up to be law-abiding citizens. If there is a genetic explanation, its a slippery, discreet mutation. We don't see entire families of serial killers. There is no such thing as a "kill gene", but research is revealing some genetic tendencies to violent behavior. In other words, bad seeds blossom in bad environments

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers..._9.html?sect=19

Let us consider this. We have a population of nearly 300,000,000, lets take the high number of 50 serial killers. That is one person in 6 million. It is pretty difficult to pinpoint a societal cause for driving one individual in 6 million to being a psychopath.

Why does America produce so many serial killers?
I think that the genesis of a serial killer is not something that happens because of a single factor - even in a particular case. More likely there is a complex interplay of genetic predisposition (in most cases, a predisposition to types of mental illness rather than to being a killer per se); personality as shaped by parenting and schooling (though mostly parenting, I would imagine); and the cultural norms in which that person finds themself, some of which might make becoming or being a serial killer easier or harder.

For every theory of how such people come to be, there will be an exception. Maybe the big spaces that allow most housing in the US to be detached, giving more privacy (to do bad or noisy things) might have something to do with it? But didn't Dahmer live in an apartment block? Maybe not - or at least, not on it's own.

moif is right about both Britain and America - we are comparatively violent societies. If anything, I'd say that Britain is somewhat more violent, in that "casual" low-grade violence (e.g. punch-ups in the street, playground rough-housing, football fouls) is looked on with only mild disapproval, and even neutrality or mild approval in some circumstances. (Which, I have argued in the past, is one reason I'm thankful that guns are pretty much impossible to legally own here.)

To this extent, perhaps there is an "optimum" level of violence in a society to provide fertile groung for serial killers. Violent enough that violence is something that does seem a possible option to people (which happens less often in continental Europe), but not often enough that it is "normalised", such as in the Third World and/or Muslim societies already referenced.

After all, when you can be culturally "normal" for your home country and kill your own womenfolk for being "uppity", or dismember your own kids because they are "witches", who needs to become Jack the Ripper?

(In this, my hunch is that the British are just a little too violent "normally" to produce as many serial killers pro rata as the USA.)

What factors make America so “unique” that it produces more serial killers than other countries?
As I've said, I don't think America is "unique" in it's "serial-killer-friendliness". Rather, perhaps the particular intersection of all of the various parameter scales that might have an influence on this might just be at the optimum point for producing more per head than most other places. (The Russian valley already mentioned must therefore be even "better" for this, though these influencing factors - whatever they may be - do not appear to be as widespread through the whole of any other nation outside the USA.)

Serial killers are by nature thrill seekers. Americans have a reputation for thrill-seeking. Is there a correlation?
Maybe, but I don't think this is the central factor.

Does America’s prudish approach to sex and all things sexual play a role in twisting the minds of individuals who pervert the normal act of sex with the abnormal act of murder? To what degree?

Hmm. I'm not sure that porno doesn't play a part here, especially some of the more degrading forms (I don't think any porn is especially uplifting, but the more extreme forms seem to value the degradation itself). Sure, they exist elsewhere - everywhere - but as far as I know nobody else on earth sees the need to (claim) protection for such forms of expression under their Constitution. That not a reason to change the First Amendment - I'm just saying that such high ideals do not come without a cost.

Equally, I think religiosity is not without influence here. Sure, Catholicism should be just as prone to serial killers as American Protestantism if it's just about how devout people are. But let's not forget the different attitudes to "sinfulness" in different denominations. Sometimes one could be forgiven for glibly thinking that Catholics can do whatever they like, as long as they say enough Hail Marys afterwards. Catholic societies all tend to be rather, er, earthier about sex, even as their churches frown upon some of its aspects. And guilt - a central plank of Catholicism - is a powerful tool of control.

"Islam" is too broad a brush, but certainly many Islamic countries and ethnicities have a much higher societal tolerance for "low-level" violence (in all cases in this post, all I really mean here is "violence at a lower level than serial killing"), which may well sublimate the desires of men who might otherwise become serial killers.

Lastly - and I think there's a crumb of comfort here for Americans - most of the highest victim counts have come from elsewhere. Andrei Chitilaiko (sp?), the whoever it is that kills Brazillian street kids, the old thuggee cult (what else were they but serial killers?). Even Dear Old Blighty can put forward Harold Shipman (known in the tabloids as "Dr Death") with a victim count conservatively estimated in the low hundreds. Something in America - maybe society, maybe law enforcement, maybe somethign else - is helping to limit the number of victims a particular serial killer can get their hands on in the tens.

So while there might be more of them, intuitively you are not massively more likely to become a victim or them in the USA than you are in most other places (I couldn't find any usueful stats on this assertion, so I'm open to challenge.)

How can we (and should we) identify aberrant behavior (sociopathy, psychopathy) in children before it turns deadly?

This is the $64,000 question, all right. Increased funding for mental health services might help somewhat (from whatever source - being European I would suggest taxation!).
But ultimately serial killers only exist because they are hard to spot. If they were obvious "monsters" rampaging in the streets, they'd never get past one or two victims, if that, before being apprehended.
They have to be "normal" to the casual onlooker to be able to function. Their neighbours have to think that the bad smells coming from the drains/basement/woodchipper have a plausible "innocent" explanation. The police have to think them unlikely suspects the first few times they come across them (I read somewhere that most convicted serial killers have been questioned and released at least once in connection to crimes later attributed to them). Their families have to think that what they are doing is innocent or normal - either through total ignorance or through complicity.
Without being otherwise unremarkable or even rather likeable, they would never be able to do what they do and get away with it for long enough to qualify for the designation of "serial killer".

I fear you have misunderstood my point Daffygrl.

I am NOT saying that guns, violent TV or violence in society is going to produce serial killers. What I am saying is that the serial killers are produced by the same social conditions that give rise to guns, violent TV and violence in society. These things are not the cause of the disease, they are symptoms of it.

The cause, as I see it, is an acceptance of violence as a justified option.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


What motivates these people is their childhood trauma's and those trauma's wouldn't happen in a more open and tolerant and less violent society.

That is what I am saying.


Well first of all, I don't see how paedophiles can be compared to psychopaths since these are not the same thing, and as for Pedro Lopez and the Rostov-on-Don region in Russia, are these peaceful communities? or are these other forms of overly violent society's where the use of 'justified force' is tolerated?

I don't know about the Andes, but everything I have heard from Russia indicates it is a very hard place where violence is often regarded as justified and the overwhelming attitude amongst Russians accepts violence in society and looks upon with mild eyes.

Another example would be South Africa which by all accounts is a very cruel place. Does it surprise any one to learn that in South Africa, where sex with a virgin is widely considered a cure for AIDS a person is raped once every twenty six seconds?

All violence has a root cause in society, and I don't care what the 'professionals' say about it. I've spent my whole life surrounded by 'professionals' and I know that most of the time, we humans love to pontificate and form theories when often the truth is staring is right in the face and 'experts' are often the worst offenders.

You don't have to be a genius to figure out that violence begets violence.

It is very difficult to know what causes this problem. The US has a high population, great economy, a mobile population, and immense freedom. I do not know were “justifiable violence” is coming from. Movies and TV do have a lot of violent content but it’s broadcast all over the world. Pulp Fiction has been seen by people all over the world and it one of the most violent movies at the time.

Most of the theories here conform to set political ideologies, but I loved the movie Fight Club so I am just another violence loving American.

Well, there's certainly no arguing with that line of reasoning moif. I'll grant you that appeals to authority are often suspect and Lord knows I've done enough of it myself on this board, but neither do I totally discount the seasoned, trained professional for that of a skeptical amateur who is only "pontificating and forming theories when the truth is staring them right in the face."

Police in Denmark, Germany and Austria are also conducting investigations into Fourniret, who is believed to have possibly murdered young girls and women in their countries. In The Netherlands, there are cases that are markedly similar to those to which Fourniret admitted. Furthermore, Fourniret was believed to have been visiting the regions at the times the murders and disappearances took place. So far there is no evidence tying him to the crimes.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers...t/5.html?sect=2

Eh?

You've lost me nighttimer...

Are you trying to tell me I'm being a skeptical amateur for having ignored the facts that we have serial killers?

If so, allow me to direct you to my first post in this thread, where in I wrote:

Since we are throwing out unsubstantiated theories-- I'll throw mine out as well.

I just watched a show about serial killers on the history channel the other day. They discussed all the well known ones and also added to the list Sadaam Hussein and Adolf Hitler.

The common factor present in the backgrounds of all these killers was a childhood where they were made to feel as if they had no control over their lives; the feeling of absolute impotence. Apparently, this deep rooted experience in their childhoods led them to seek in whatever way possible, absolute power, control and dominion over others. I think they had to have a sociopathic predisposition already -- but the serial killer instinct was often activated after this type of childhood experience.



Why does America produce so many serial killers?

Here is my guess-- based on the above theory. America is unique in that it has enormous opportunity, wealth, materialism. We are inundated by the media which sends the message that in order to be successful you must achieve an enormous amount. Of course, even though we have such opportunity, not everyone-- most people for that matter, never achieve truly great success. I think americans, particularly american men have more of a tendency to feel that they have "failed" if they do not achieve success as it is defined in our culture. I suspect that this type of sentiment is acutely aggravated in those who have a sociopathic predisposition and those who have childhoods where they feel powerless. Hence, american culture has a greater percentage of serial killers for these reasons.

I don't think the religiosity of a person has anything to do with his tendency to become a serial killer. Otherwise, as Amlord rightly points out, the muslim countries would have an over abundance of them.

Just to clarify; Hussein and Hitler are NOT serial killers; they are mass murderers, and there is a major difference in the psychological makeup between the two.

For those who pooh-pooh the idea that religion plays any role in the creation of a serial killer, consider:


And Eddie Gein, the monster who inspired characters in many famous horror movies:

Or sexual predator and killer, Earle Leonard Nelson:

And BTK was the church council president in Witchita. Marcus Wesson, incestuous child molester and mass murderer of his "family", believed himself to be "God's messenger".

While I'm not claiming that all religous folk are fanatics, and not all religious fanatics give rise to serial killers, I AM claiming there is some degree of causal linkage between religious extremism/fanaticism and the twisting of psyche that turns a weak or malleable person into a serial killer. Whether it's God or Satan, religion has played a prominent role in many serial killings and mass murders. And while my theory may be "unsubstantiated", there is enough evidence of it to fill several books.

Daffygrl, I don't think anyone totally discounted religion all together. However, this jump in serial killers started in 1960 and there is NO proof that the US has become a more prudish place since then. There are other countries that are far more religious than the US. Also, you mentioned that Hitler and Hussein were mass murderers and then you added the wacko Pro-lifers on your list. They would not be consider serial killers either.

Do you have any theories to share? Religion plays a role many of the times, but religion plays a role in almost everyone person's life regardless if they believe or not. Something has changed since 1960 to cause a dramatic increase in these type of killers. It is NOT increased religion.

Nemov, the quote was from a synopsis of the book on Amazon. I didn't choose the wording. I could have edited it out, and then someone would crow about how I was leaving it out for some nefarious reason. Can't win.

As for theories, I have been sharing them throughout this thread. I think that some religious fanatics warp their children's psyche, some by telling them that sex is bad, their sexual organs are dirty or nasty, or literally try to beat religion into them. As with anything that is taken to extremes, the victim will act out in some way. Chances are, the boy who is constantly told that sexuality is dirty, filthy and an offense against God will not grow up to have a normal, healthy sex life or sense of sexual identity (a prime example: John Wayne Gacy).

Some have pointed out the prevalence of sexual images that pervade our media proving that America is not prudish. I think that if said images were so commonplace and ho-hum, then the mere sight of a not-quite-bare breast would never have created the furor that it did. Ashcroft would not have felt it necessary to cover up a bronze breast.

As for thrill-seeking, I think that maybe some people are so desensitized by run of the mill thrills, that they edge ever closer to the abyss into forbidden thrills, i.e. murder.

As for "since the 60's", serial killers didn't just spring up in the 20th century. There have been many throughout history, but with modern technology, they have become more well known. And all I can say is, thank goodness for DNA technology and making it more difficult for these creeps to get away with their crimes.

I don't claim to have any answers; I'm just curious about what factors might be pivotal in turning a person into something evil and inhuman. Are some people born evil? I believe that some are. But, like the whole nature vs. nurture argument, there are no clear answers. It's an ugly subject, but I thought that it would provoke interesting discussion.

Maybe part of the problem is that some in America tend to label people with good, honest blue collar jobs, such as auto painter, code inspector and factory worker as losers.


Mr. Hugo you have stumbled off into some wild tangent. Nowhere in my post did I denote the 3 serial killers mentioned as losers BECAUSE of their particular vocation. They were being analyzed as thrill seekers, and by listing their jobs I was elucidating the fact that they were boring people who were not thrill seekers. But according to your logic, the fact that some people may consider them losers is justification for the crimes they committed. I put the blame on the perpetrator, a novel idea, I'm sure, to you.

Why does America produce so many serial killers?

I would suggest that before we even attempt an answer to that question, that we first subdivide our serial killers, i.e., there are killers who kill for the mere thrill of killing, there are killers who kill for the sexual satisfaction involved, there are killers who view themselves as purging society of some bad element, there are killers [and this is where the "black widow" type come in] who kill for financial gain [you know, the woman who keeps on killing the rich hubby, boyfriend,...], etc....oh, sorry, since the one post mentions the baking of a human, there's also the mental illness type, i.e., the one who hears voices telling her/him to kill.

That being said, we simply cannot correctly claim that serial killing is entirely concerned with thrill seeking, as that doesn't cover the "black widow" as well as many of those who view themselves as purging society of some bad element.

To give the best illustration of the clean-up type that I can think of, Gary Ridgway, the Green River Killer, was this type, as he himself reported that he hated prostitutes. And I don't have a link to the dialogue from that made for t.v. movie, but in the same, Ridgway says: I thought I was doing you guys a favor, killing prostitutes. You guys can't control them, but I can. Or so I remember him telling the cops in the made for t.v. movie.

Sasha Spesivtsev is another clean-up type, as the motive was to cleanse Russia of the permissiveness of modern democracy. And so Sasha killed more than 20 street children and then cooked and ate them [with the help of his mother].

A third killer of this type was Joseph Franklin, who killed those who had interracially married, which he considered a sin. He is suspected of shooting Larry Flynt, of Hustler fame, and precisely because Hustler depicted interracial sexual relations.

Another target group for the clean-up type would be homosexuals. Herb Baumeister was probably such a serial killer. Dennis Nilsen of Great Britain was also most certainly this type as well. Either that, or we have a case of killing what we despise most in ourselves.

As concerns the someone told me to it, there's Albert Fish, he who couldn't accept the fact that the Mrs. left and later told authorities that God had told him to castrate young boys. However, he actually murdered children of both sexes and his road to ruin was in writing the parents of a girl he had killed to inform them how much he had enjoyed eating her.

Another of that type is Elifasi Msomi, of South Africa, who hacked his victims to death with an axe. He said that he was told do so by something or someone appearing on his shoulder [though the psychiatric experts at his trial said something about him deriving sexual satisfaction from his killing].

As concerns the "black widow," or financial gain type, we have Belle Gunness, who obtained her wealthy Chicago area males via classified ads.

Whereas the US was once far and away the leader in producing serial killers, South Africa and Russia are catching up, and even Costa Rica has a homegrown serial killer. And in some places, say Rio in Brazil, they find so many murdered in a day, that it's hard to tell whether a serial killer is on the loose. That was the problem with a Mr. Andrade [see link below].

Why do we have serial killers? Physical and sexual abuse in the home, absence of the father, sexual dysfunction, mental illness, etc. The "trifecta" of early warning signs is (1) cruelty to animals, (2) arson/setting fires, and (3) bed-wetting. And if we add later sexual dysfunction...

For a rather disturbing look at more than a few serial killers, please see:

http://www.greatdreams.com/serial-killer.htm

I don't think serial killers are any more common now, as a percentage of the population, as they were 50, 60, 100 years ago. The difference is that we're able to track them, count their victims, connect the dots, and figure out that they're out there, now.....