Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Le Tour de France
America's Debate > Archive > Everything Else Archive > [A] Casual Conversation
Google
psyclist
Well, my Super Bowl is almost here. July 2nd marks the 92nd running of the Tour de France. I for one never much cared for golf or saw the point in it until someone who played sat me down and explained it while I watched it on TV. So I hope to do the same with this thread. I'll try my best to update the thread* as the stages go along and highlight any major developments or interesting tid-bits. For those of you new to cycling feel free to ask any questions and I'll do my best (or with the help of other posters) to answer them. For the fans on the boards I'm sure we'll have a lively discussion as well. Their is a huge amount of culture and tradition to cycling and the Tour itself with a lot of "unwritten rules" that hopefully you all will find interesting. thumbsup.gif

Obligatory Primer:
The Tour De France is a three week race organized into stages. Each stage goes from a start point to an end point. The position of the riders in the overall classification of the race is computed by the cumulative time they take to finish each stage. In addition, there are various points in the race where a rider can pick up "time bonuses" of a few seconds which reduce the total time for that rider for that stage.

Terminology:
Autobus - A group of riders (normally sprinters or "heavier" riders) off the back of the peloton in a mountain stage.

Bidon - a water bottle.

Break away - a smaller group of riders who have escaped the peloton for either strategic reasons or to win the day for themselves.

Directeur sportif - The "head coach" of a team.

Domestique - A rider whose primary role is to support the team leader, as opposed to winning individual honors.

General Classification (GC) - The cumulative time it has taken each rider to finish the stages. The rider who has the lowest time is the overall leader of the GC.

Hors categorie' - A climb or mountain pass 'beyond category'. The climbs are rated on a scale of difficulty...these climbs are off the scale wacko.gif

Lanterne Rouge - The poor sap in last place of a stage or overall.

Maillot à Pois Rouge - Polka dotted jersey.

Maillot Jaune - Yellow jersey.

Maillot Vert - Green jersey.

Musette - A bag full of food and water for the riders.

Peloton - The large main group of riders.

Soigneur - A staff member of a team responsible for taking care of physical needs of the riders.

Stage Types:
Normal Stage - In an normal stage, all riders start simultaneously and first one across the line wins. If the stage is flat then it is a "sprinter's stage" because it will probably come down to a mass finish and the sprinters will fight it out for the win. If it's in the mountains it's a "climber's stage" as the peloton will probably break up and the true climbers will fight it out for the win.

Individual time trial - A race against the clock. Riders leave one at a time from the starting gate in ~30 second intervals. The rider who can complete the course in the fastest time is the winner. The first stage of the tour is often a time trial, known as a prologue.

Team time trial - Same as above except the teams leave together. The team which finishes the course in the fastest time is the winner. Time is taken from the 5th member of the team to cross the line.


FAQs:
Q: What do the different color jerseys mean?
A:The yellow jersey is reserved for the overall leader of the general classification (GC). The green jersey is awarded to the points leader. There are points allocated to the position in each day's finish as well as intermittent points on the course. The green jersey is normally worn by a sprinter. The polka dotted jersey is awarded to the race's best climber, or to be precise to the winner of a points contest that's conducted at the top of each of the race's climbs. The higher the category of the climb, the more points for being the first across the line at the top. Finally the white jersey is the awarded to the best young rider. 'Young' in the case of the Tour means under 25. So the highest place rider in the GC, under 25, wears this jersey.

Q: Why do all the riders stay together? Why isn't Lance out in front?
A: It is much easier for the riders to "draft" off each other. Drafting is when you ride behind a teammate or another rider in order to save your energy. A single rider riding behind someone who is "breaking the wind" will do about 30% less work than the rider in front. The domestiques are the ones in charge of breaking the wind for their appointed leader. Since it is much easier to ride fast in a big group rather than a small group break aways normally fail...but not always wink.gif However in the mountain stages aerodynamics and wind don't play as much of a factor so drafting is not as important.

Q: What are all those cars doing behind the riders?
A: Each team has a team car/support vehicle which the riders (normally the domestiques) will go back to in order to pick up water and food. The team cars also have mechanics and doctors as well as the directeur sportif on board in case anything goes wrong. The media as well as the tour organizer and officials also follow behind the riders.

Q: All the riders were given the same time for stage, obviously they all didn't cross at the same time! What gives?
A: In order to keep 180 riders trying to gun it for the line on every stage as well as make life easier for officials, riders who come across as a group in the "1 Kilometer to go line" will be given the same time on flat stages. The peloton normally sticks together on flat stages and the sprinters end up fighting it out. Things get pretty crazy in the last couple hundred meters and if a crash occurs this saves those who hung in for the whole stage but crashed in the 1,000 meters from losing time.

Websites:
cyclingnews
Le Tour
Outdoor Life Network

*Go figure, I'll be out of town till probably the 4th, so I'll start when I get back. Someone else feel free to pick up my slack. laugh.gif
Google
Horyok
Well, Psyclist, I hope that ADebaters will follow your enthusiasm laugh.gif The Tour de France has been a traditional event of the French mid-summer for over a century now; let's hope for an interesting outcome!
Cube Jockey
I'll definitely be following - ever since OLN (Outdoor Life Network) started broadcasting it I've watched all 84 hours of the tour every July smile.gif I just set up my Tivo to record the next two weeks of episodes when they go on live at 5:30 am pacific.

I'll be sending out my traditional open invitiation to all of my friends tomorrow. I tell everyone they can feel free to show up unannounced at promptly 7 pm (6 pm for 5 hour stages) to start watching the stage and partake of good wine and assorted snacks. Since my weekday riding drops off considerably there is also an open invitation for between 80 and 100 mile rides each weekend during the tour.

Looking forward to discussing things here w00t.gif
psyclist
Stage 1
This years Tour de France kicked off with a 19KM Individual Time Trial (ITT) from Fromentine - Noirmoutier-en-l'Ile. The Prologue is a stage suited best for riders who time trial well with good power as it is a short stage. The first man to wear the maillot jaune is 26 year old American David Zabriskie who held on to win the stage by just 2 seconds over Amrstrong. To beat Armstrong, Zabriskie rode the fastest TT in Tour De France history at an incredible average speed of 54.676 km/h (33.97).

While time trials normally play an important role in shaking up the GC classification, 19KM is normally too short for any one rider to put in large chunks of time on their rivals. Zabriskie is not an overall contender for the win so Armstrong and others have nothing to fear. On a positive note, since Lance is not wearing yellow, his team will not be responsible for controlling the peloton for the next couple of days. In the tour, the team which has the race leader has the unwritten responsibility of riding in front and shutting down any threatening attacks which means they have to do more work. So Lance and his teams can conserve themselves for awhile. However, Zabriskie rides for team CSC, strong team with which can put some pressure on Armstrong. If they can hold on to the jersey for the next 3 stages, they will be the last team to leave the starting gate in the Team Time Trial in stage 4. This is a good thing because all the other teams have gone and you know what time you have to beat, which can help push the riders just a little bit more.

Despite what I said about not being able to put in a lot of time on riders in the Prologue, Lance was able to put 1min 8s on one of his main rivals, Jan Ullrich. "Der Kaiser" as he's sometimes called said he rode flat out but may have been a little off his game due to a crash the previous day. Jan smashed into the back of a team car (no helmet! sad.gif ) during a training ride the day before the Tour started, cutting his neck and missing his jugular only by inches! ohmy.gif

I guess now would be an appropriate time for those following along at home to take your pick at who you think will give Lance the most trouble this year.

For those of you who don't know Lance from Jan, I'll try and point out some people you should keep an eye on.

Floyd Landis (USA) Phonak Hearing Systems: Ex-teammate of Lance, who is now captain of the Phonak squad. He had a strong Tour last year as the right hand man of Armstrong and is out to prove what he can do for himself.

Jan Ullrich (Ger) T-Mobile Team: You have to place him hear out of respect. Jan has been second in the tour either 4 or 5 times to Lance and is waiting to take the number 1 spot. A man of pure God given talent, you can bet Lance will keep an eye out for him.

Ivan Basso (Ita) Team CSC: The CSC team is always strong and their Directeur sportif, Bjarne Riis, is a tactical genius. Some say Ivan had a "break through" tour last year and may be one to watch out for this year.

My dark horse picks would be:

Alex Vinokourov (Kaz) T-Mobile Team and Bobby Julich (USA) Team CSC: As second in command at T-Mobile, Alex has the ability to go off the front and put some major time in a solo break away. He can time trial and climb well enough to stay in the running so if he does get a big enough gap, it'll be hard for Amrstrong to pull it back. On paper Julich has what it takes to race very well and my friends and I have been watching him for a few years now. A strong early season may give him the confidence to push himself to be a main contender in this year's tour.

Who's your pick?




Stage 2 Challans - Les Essarts (112mi)
Flat sprinter's stages are typical for early in the tour. Tom Boonen (Bel) Quick.Step was able to take the sprint and the Green jersey today. The normal crashes littered the field today but nothing too major as all the main GC contenders are still in it. We probably won’t see any major shake ups in the GC until Stage 4 at the team time trail but as it stands now:

Yellow jersey: David Zabriskie
Green jersey: Tom Boonen
K.O.M jersey: Thomas Voeckler
White jersey: Fabian Cancellara

Top 5 on GC:
1 David Zabriskie (USA) Team CSC 4.12.22
2 Lance Armstrong (USA) Discovery Channel 0.02
3 Laszlo Bodrogi (Hun) Credit Agricole 0.47
4 Alexandre Vinokourov (Kaz) T-Mobile Team 0.53
5 George Hincapie (USA) Discovery Channel 0.57

I guess I should explain how to read this...
The chart above shows how far off each rider is from the overall leader. Meaning Lance is 2 seconds behind Zabriskie. Bodrogi is 47 behind Zabriskie. So in order for Lance to take the yellow, he needs to beat Zabriskie in a stage by 2 seconds.
psyclist
Stage 3 La Châtaigneraie - Tours 212.5 km (132mi)
Boom! Boom! Boonen.

Today's Avenue de Grammont is a sprinter's heaven and Tom Bonnen made it known that this year he is serious about wearing Green in Paris. Erik Dekker (Rabobank) was ravenous today as the driving force in a 3 man break with Nicolas Portal (AG2R) and and Rubens Bertogliati (Saunier) which lasted till the final kilometers. Today's stage was pretty uneventful, everyone stayed on the bike for the most part and all the favorites still seem healthy and ready to rock in the team time trail tomorrow.


yellow: David ZABRISKIE
green: Tom BOONEN
KOM: Erik DEKKER
White: Fabian CANCELLARA
psyclist
Stage 4 Tours - Blois 67.5 km (42mi)

Today's stage was a nail biter! In the end, it came down to a difference of 2 second. Sadly for Zabriskie and team CSC they had to relinquish the yellow jersey. Plagued with bad luck over the years, Lance has only been able to win the Team Time Trial only in the past couple of years. But Team Discovery Channel showed just how disciplined they've been in their training for one of Lance's favorite events.

To add insult to injury, or injury to insult rather, Zabriskie crashed in the final Kilometer of the race today, so he was not given the same time as the rest of his CSC team. I'm still not sure what happened but when you're going that hard and that fast your brain can become oxygen deprived and you don't think and move as fast and sometimes these things happen.

So with Lance in yellow it will be interesting to see how team Discovery plays. Certain responsibilities accompany holding the yellow jersey such as chasing down breaks and doing a lot of work up front. In the past Lance has allowed attackers to put time on him so he can give up the yellow to keep his team fresh...but it's always a gamble and theirs still a lot of racing to be done.

What would you do? Defend the yellow or give it up and try and get it back later?


Lance ARMSTRONG Yellow
Tom BOONEN Green
Erik DEKKER KOM
Yaroslav POPOVYCH White

1 Lance Armstrong (USA) Discovery Channel 9.59.12
2 George Hincapie (USA) Discovery Channel 0.55
3 Jens Voigt (Ger) Team CSC 1.04
4 Bobby Julich (USA) Team CSC 1.07
5 Jose Luis Rubiera (Spa) Discovery Channel 1.14
Cube Jockey
QUOTE
What would you do? Defend the yellow or give it up and try and get it back later?

I don't think Lance is going to deliberately get rid of the malliot jaune, but I also don't think he'll be too bent out of shape if he loses it in the run up to the alps.

However, I see him finishing with it at this point. I predict he'll hold on to it in the remaining flat stages because I doubt anyone that matters will try to break away. I think that he'll put this race to bed early in the alps this year. Last year he had a similar strategy and the race was for the most part won once they left the Pyrénées.

The commentators this year (as always) have been pretty reserved in playing up his abilities but based on what I have seen so far he is in his peak condition right now and barring some unfortunate turn of events like Zabriskie experienced today I see him taking home #7.

But... anything could happen that is the excitement of it smile.gif

QUOTE
I'm still not sure what happened but when you're going that hard and that fast your brain can become oxygen deprived and you don't think and move as fast and sometimes these things happen.

It is my understanding he clipped his teammate's wheel and that is what did it. During the final stretch he was getting antsy to get back up front and drive the team forward in my opinion - that is probably what did it, but who knows.

Oh and if you haven't checked it out you might try Velo News too psyclist, they always have some really good photos from Graham Watson and a good course details map.
png1966
Maybe someone can elaborate on this situation; I know little of cycle races.

During the OLN coverage, I think it was the second stage, the camera's pulled back because one of the riders had to urinate. Thay also stated that there was a gentlemen's rule that the peloton would not attack while one of the leaders was in this situation.

My question is, "How did he do it"? Did he stop and get off his bike? If so, even if there was no attack, the peloton would keep moving and the rider would lose time. Did he somehow take care of this while still riding?

psyclist
QUOTE(png1966 @ Jul 6 2005, 12:55 PM)

Maybe someone can elaborate on this situation; I know little of cycle races.

During the OLN coverage, I think it was the second stage, the camera's pulled back because one of the riders had to urinate.  Thay also stated that there was a gentlemen's rule that the peloton would not attack while one of the leaders was in this situation.

My question is, "How did he do it"?  Did he stop and get off his bike?  If so, even if there was no attack, the peloton would keep moving and the rider would lose time.  Did he somehow take care of this while still riding?
*



Good question and one I get a lot. These races can be 4+ hours sometimes and riders are constantly drinking fluids to keep hydrated so bathroom breaks are a must.

This is handled a couple of ways. The most common way is that the leaders of the teams or the Tour such as Lance will call for a "nature break" when the riders get to a place that is not crowded with fans and fairly remote. At this time the peloton slows down and some stop and get off their bike to take care of business. This normally happens only when their isn't a break away the whole peloton is together.

If you can't hold it, a rider will go to the back and take care of business. With out getting too much into detail, I'll just say it is possible to take care of business while on the bike...just know which way the wind is blowing and make sure you practice! w00t.gif

As far as rejoining the peleton, a few thing can occur. A rider will first try and find others that have to go and they'll go back as a group and can work together to catch back up. Keep in mind, the peloton is not going all out full blast 100% of the time so riders who push themselves a little bit and work in a group can easily catch back up. This is seen all the time as domestiques on each team have to go from the peloton, back to the team cars to pick up water bottles, food, jackets then back to the peloton all the time.

If you're the only one who has to go, well then you go to the back and the officials will normally turn a blind eye to a rider who uses the team cars to "leap frog" their way back up to the peloton. The cars act as teammates, breaking the wind and allow the rider to get back up to the front.
psyclist
Stage 5 Chambord - Montargis, 183 km (113mi)
Aussie Aussie Aussie...Oui! Oui! Oui!


Australian national champion Robbie McEwen took the stage win from Tom Boonen by half a wheel in the pancake flat stage today. As with most sprinter's stages, a 4 man break away consisting of Juan Antonion Flecha, Salvatore Commesso, Kjell Carlstrom, and Laszio Bodrogi attacked early to get some "time for the sponsors" and have a slim chance of winning the stage. However the sprinter's teams got organized and caught the break away group in the last 10K, setting things up for a fast bunch sprint.

In a sign of respect, early on Lance refused to wear the yellow jersey and instead wanted Zabriskie to wear it. Lance felt that he "didn't earn it" but the race organizers wouldn't have it and made Lance wear the yellow. This shows how much Lance has grown up as a cyclist since his pre-cancer days as a brash young rider.

For those of you watching the race on OLN...who's your favorite commentator and why?

Phil Liggett?
Paul Sherwen?
Bob Roll?
Google
png1966
Thanks for the explanation "nature breaks".

A left Handed person
I bike about 20 to 50 miles a day, so I can sort of relate with this sport a bit.

To add my bit to this thread, ill go over the different kinds of bikes:
Road Bikes/10 speeders:

These are the fastest bikes out there, as they have more gears, and take less work then all other variants. On the minus side, they are also the hardest to balance, the worst at turning, and the worst at going over bumps (this could be a problem when traversing some roads and most sidewalks). Consequently, they are the most dangerous bikes to ride. They get the nickname 10 speeders, due to their 10 gears. Their strengths and weaknesses are both direct results of their extremely slim tires.

Mountain Bikes (this is the one I use shifty.gif ):

Mountain bikes are the slowest bikes out there, as they have the least number of gears (mine has 7, but I think the new ones have 8), and they take the most work to pedal. On the plus side, they are the easiest to balance, the best at turning, and the best at going over bumps. As a result, they are the safest bikes out there. They can traverse grass, sidewalks, and even some hiking trails. Their strengths and weaknesses are both due to their fat tires.

All Terrain Bikes:

This bike is somewhere between a mountain bike and a road bike. Its faster and takes less work then a mountain bike, but is also slower and takes more work then a road bike. As could be expected, its tires are not as fat as my bikes, but they are still not as slim as a 10 speeders either. I'm not sure exactly what they can traverse, but I'm pretty sure they can handle sidewalks, and maybe grass.



Cube Jockey
QUOTE(A left Handed person @ Jul 11 2005, 08:23 AM)
On the minus side, they are also the hardest to balance, the worst at turning, and the worst at going over bumps (this could be a problem when traversing some roads and most sidewalks).  Consequently, they are the most dangerous bikes to ride. 
*


Road bikes aren't the worst at turning, you just don't turn them in the same way that you turn a standard bike, it is a completely different concept. Instead of using the handle bars like most people are taught all their lives you lean into turns and turn using your body weight. So if you are used to a mountain bike then that is a complete departure from what you are used to. Road bikes inherently must have good handling and turning or it wouldn't be possible to ride them at high speeds.

Also, obviously you aren't going to be hopping curbs and jumping speedbumps like you would with that BMX you had as a kid but you'd be surprised at some of the terrain a road bike can traverse. It all depends on the skill of the rider. You have to be on the lookout for debris in the road and it helps to have kevlar beaded tires to help prevent punctures. Weather conditions however, do effect a road bike far more than any other type of bike due to the tires.

I wouldn't say they are the most dangerous bike to ride, it all depends on what you are doing with the bike. They require certain skills which are different than other bikes, but if you are just cruising down your (flat) street they are no more dangerous than a mountain bike or a hybrid. Now if you are barreling down a hill that is a little bit different, but you shouldn't be doing that unless you know what you are doing anyway smile.gif

I'd say that the guys who ride mountain bikes down the side of mountains through trees, bushes, rocks, puddles, mud, etc are in far more danger of crashing than someone riding a road bike down a hill. smile.gif
A left Handed person
Well, isn't a faster bike innately more dangerous then a slower one? Of course the prudence of the driver is more important for his safety then the kind of bike he uses. Also, using your weight and using the handle bar don't have to be mutually exclusive things do they? I use both sometimes on really tight turns when i'm going fast.
Cube Jockey
QUOTE(A left Handed person @ Jul 11 2005, 01:03 PM)
Well, isn't a faster bike innately more dangerous then a slower one?  Of course the prudence of the driver is more important for his safety then the kind of bike he uses.  Also, using your weight and using the handle bar don't have to be mutually exclusive things do they?  I use both sometimes on really tight turns when i'm going fast.
*


What I meant was in the traditional sense. You might make slight steering adjustments (regardless of speed) but you aren't going to give your handlebars a good turn like you would on any other bike.

Either way that doesn't mean poor turning. It might mean that turning takes more skill, that is all.
aevans176
QUOTE(Cube Jockey @ Jul 11 2005, 11:31 AM)
I'd say that the guys who ride mountain bikes down the side of mountains through trees, bushes, rocks, puddles, mud, etc are in far more danger of crashing than someone riding a road bike down a hill. smile.gif
*



YOU'RE SOOOOO RIGHT CJ! ! ! !
Dallas isn't known for it's difficult courses, but I took a spill this weekend that left an ugly cut on my leg and some beautiful cuts (from impact) on my mid-section... and that's not abnormal at all. I had a fellow rider hit a tree the week before hard enough to knock loose limbs down on him! I could only imagine the speed that could be generated on real Mountains...

When you consider that Mt Biking is up and down hills riddled with trees, stumps, ruts in the mud, and rocks... it can be pretty violent if you're not careful (or just unlucky!).
Cube Jockey
QUOTE(aevans176 @ Jul 11 2005, 01:21 PM)
YOU'RE SOOOOO RIGHT CJ! ! ! !
Dallas isn't known for it's difficult courses, but I took a spill this weekend that left an ugly cut on my leg and some beautiful cuts (from impact) on my mid-section... and that's not abnormal at all. I had a fellow rider hit a tree the week before hard enough to knock loose limbs down on him! I could only imagine the speed that could be generated on real Mountains...

When you consider that Mt Biking is up and down hills riddled with trees, stumps, ruts in the mud, and rocks... it can be pretty violent if you're not careful (or just unlucky!).
*


You aren't kidding, I have some friends who mtn. bike in the Santa Cruz mountains here in CA - they are absolutely insane in my opinion. Of course these are the same people that will head down a black diamond run without making a single turn on a dare.
psyclist
Oi! So sorry for my absence! I've just returned for a weekend triathlon race but was able to follow the racing on TV and word of mouth.

Lance has stamped his mark on this years tour. We've come to the Alps and the mountains are normally what separate the men from the boys. Things seemed aloof at first when Lance's team seemed to peel off rather quick once they hit the mountains leaving Armstrong to fend for himself. However, the next couple of days they came around and are putting the hurt on the field.

After the "rest day" Lance took a lot of time out of his main rivals as they weren't able to hang on to the pace of Lance and his "Blue train." I say "rest day" in quotes because the riders will still go out and ride for ~60miles. As the commentators have pointed out, the rider's body get so used to taking pain day after day that after a rest day the body may have trouble adjusting. Doing a ride on a rest day will minimize this occurence.

So what makes a good climber? Well, don't look at me smile.gif The key to climbing well is your strength to weight ratio. Meaning, how much wattage can you put out per kilo of body weight. Lance is known for being a gram counter, meaning he wants the lightest wheels, bike, pedals, shoes whatever out there in order to shave weight. Their is a limit to how light a bike can be (~15lbs if I remember correctly) and Lance is right at the limit. For us mortals though, this gets pretty expensive. Having worked in the industry a few years, it seems the rule of thumb is each gram costs $1. For instance, take Shimano Dura-Ace and Ultegra shifters. The weight difference between the Dura-Ace (the superior shifters) and Ultegra is that the Dura-Ace are 70g lighter. However, the Dura-Ace cost about $70 more.
This of course is great motivation to lose weight! laugh.gif Instead of spending $50 on some sweet shifters, just skip the midnight snack and lose 50g. (I know, I know, easier said than done!)

The other alternative of course is to increase your strength. However, the problem here is that muscle weighs more than fat, so if you hit the gym and do leg presses to get ripped, you'll be increasing your strength but you'll also increase your weight! (of course you'll improve on sprinting a lot) So the riders have to keep a balance between how much extra weight they're carrying around, how much muscle they have in their legs etc. etc. For us mortals though, it really is just a matter of going out and doing the dreaded hill repeats and trying to stay at a reasonable weight for our size thumbsup.gif


1 Lance Armstrong (USA) Discovery Channel 41.59.57
2 Michael Rasmussen (Den) Rabobank 0.38
3 Christophe Moreau (Fra) Credit Agricole 2.34
4 Ivan Basso (Ita) Team CSC 2.40
5 Alejandro Valverde (Spa) Illes Balears-Caisse d'Epargne 3.16
6 Santiago Botero (Col) Phonak Hearing Systems 3.48
7 Levi Leipheimer (USA) Gerolsteiner 3.58
8 Francisco Mancebo (Spa) Illes Balears-Caisse d'Epargne 4.00
9 Jan Ullrich (Ger) T-Mobile Team 4.02
10 Andreas Klöden (Ger) T-Mobile Team 4.16
Christopher
Wow! I am unsure of the exact mileage of this race
QUOTE
Although the number of stages has varied in the past, recently the Tour has consisted of about 20 stages, with a total length of between 3,000 and 4,000 km. (~1800-2500 mi.)


so will settle with 2000mi.

2000mi--I ride a bike 2 miles and I need a ride home.

Lance won this thing 7 times?

Wow!
This is a simplified version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2008 Invision Power Services, Inc.