They have? You mean the Irish-Americans are insisting that a new ghetto-language be seen as an acceptable sub-language within English? Exactly who is the Irish Louis Farrakhan anyhow?



No one said that it was, but to claim that Kwanzaa is somehow 'African' is a bit ridiculous. It's about as American as baseball and apple pie. I just don't see the Irish walking around grumbling about the 'white man', do you? I don't see the Irish pretending to be a completely different culture. They celebrate ASPECTS of a culture, certainly, but when all is said and done, they are Americans just like the guy on the next stool. They don't run around and hate others, they don't get into race wars, they don't demand affirmative action because their ancestors were abused and made to work on the railroads, they are just normal, every day people who are proud of their heritage and want to share a bit of that heritage with others.

They are part of the melting pot of America. That's the difference.

Okay Cephus, let me see if I have this straight: in order for black people to be considered "assimilated" by your standards, we have to completely ignore any racial history, concepts, and slights? If we feel that we have been unfairly targeted because of our race, we're supposed to suck it up and ignore it, because pointing it out is "grumbling about the white man?"

And I don't understand your point about "insisting that a new ghetto-language be seen as an acceptable sub-language within English?" I haven't heard of any movement in the black community to get you to "accept" AAVE. Mainly, because we have far more important things to be concerned about. AAVE developed amongst black people and it's mainly used between black people... its "acceptance" among white people be damned.

Btw, I don't know where you get your racial stereotypes from, but I have yet to be out and about an encounter some random colored folk walking about "grumbling about the white man." Mind telling me how many times you've witnessed this peculiar experience? And I think it's also kind of cute how you've broadbrushed the entire black populace with generalizations like "running around and hating others" (unlike the Ku Klux Klan, right Cephus?), "getting into race wars" (because if there was a such thing as a race war going on, and if they occurred so damn frequently, it's always the negroes who started it and continue to perpetrate it, right Cephus?), and "demanding affirmative action" (huh? what the hell? We never demanded any such thing, affirmative action was created by laws passed by the legislative branch of government... how many black folk were there in the Senate in 1964, Cephus?).

I guess I need to call a meeting with my people right now and tell them to cease and desist with all the complaints about housing/lending/profiling discrimination, the complaints about being prominently displayed in the news when one of us commits a crime but never talked about when one of us goes missing, and the feelings of having to prove yourself in a company or school lest your white peers harbor unflattering stereotypes. With comments like we "walk around grumbling about the white man" and "getting into race wars" you've gone above and beyond proving yourself an exemplary model of race-blindness.

I can't speak for every black person in America, but I can say without a doubt that I would never, ever care to be assimilated to the satisfaction of people like you. And btw, I think a major part of the reason Irish-Americans are considered "fully assimilated" is, well, because... they're white. They have no status to demand any sort of affirmative action program anyway, because they do not continue to be discriminated against (solely because of their ethnic origins) anywhere near the scale of racial minorities and females. Not to mention, being abused while working on railroads isn't quite in the same league as oh, say 400 years of slavery, lynchings, Jim Crow, and general societal and government-mandated oppression that only officially ended forty years ago.

There's a difference between ignoring history and re-living it every day of your life. Slavery ended in the US a long, long time ago, but to hear some blacks talk, it's like they're still working on the plantation. Nobody is denying that slavery happened, nobody is denying that segregation and oppression happened, but you can't live your entire life that way. It becomes little more than a dodge to play the race card every other sentence, just like there are some Jews who, when they don't get what they want, start whining about the Holocaust.

Okay, we know history, but live in the present. It's over. It's done. This is today. You don't see the Irish and the Chinese whining about having to work on the railroad, so they deserve better jobs!



That's all well and good, and I don't care if people want to speak Pig Latin, so long as they know how to use English properly when it's necessary to do so. The most basic requirement in any society is the ability to communicate. That means everyone needs to speak a commonly accepted and understood language. If one cannot communicate, whether because they don't speak English at all, or because their language is filled with "bling-bling" and "foshizzle" nonsense, that's a problem.



Actually quite a bit. There are an awful lot of angry blacks out there who blame their lack of education, family structure, etc. on whites. In reality, the only ones they have to blame is themselves.

And I don't really care if you want to assimilate or not, that's your choice, but actions, or lack thereof, have consequences. One of the consequences of refusing to assimilate into a society, *ANY* society, is being an outcast. So the next time you want to blame someone for not being treated equally or not fitting in, look in the mirror, there's the one you should blame.

Ever lived in the projects? I knew a few who would do nothing but complain about the "white man" all while on welfare and getting free lawyers, the funny thing is about a few of them is they always say they dislike white people or they are holding them down all the time but the ones i knew only dated white women.

...and in what fictional land are blacks doing this?

I can't recall the last ebonics bill to be put before congress...

Or more importantly, how many blacks take Farrakhan seriously (nigh unto none)?

...and if you don't think there are Irish nationalists I'll assure they exist. Right now there attention happens to be focused elsewhere that's all.

0 for 2 in examples of refusing to integrate.



It is American in origin but is a conscious effort to incorporate African culture back into the lives of people who've had it forcibly ground out of them over generations.

In that way it is African, although borrowed in bits and pieces.

That's because they are the "white man" so to speak.

The Irish experienced far less hardship than African-americans from other ethnic europeans and their response is understandably less.

I don't see blacks doing so either...


They are no more a part of the "melting pot" than blacks. They don't even bother to refer to themselves a American much of the time. When asked about their heritage they respond: "I'm Irish"

Blacks have been a part of the US since before it existed. They don't need to be told what American culture is because they made it what it is...

I do remember somebody telling me that it was around for awhile that schools should teach ebonics, of course it would never be put before congress it got shot down long before it reached that stage. I think they tried it in Oakland not sure so don't hold me to that.




Really I had no idea i thought things were pretty smooth sailing for the good ole Irish:

Labor Force for English Colonies

* Largest number of Irish arrived in Delaware Valley via Philadelphia

Children sold first off of ships

* Children under age 5 given away

* Could serve up to 15 years

* Most released at age 21

***So children sold into slavery and adults basically working hard labour jobs if not slaves themselves***

Children sold to pay parents passage

* Children bartered for like cattle

* Children under 15 sold for full fare to pay for

parents

* Some families separated for long periods of time, sometimes for life.


Irish and Education

The Irish were primarily Catholic and generally poor, and desperate for education.

Children were expected to attend schools where Protestant religion was the primary religion.

The text books children used were vary much anti-Irish and anti-Catholic.

Many children became de-nationalized to fit in.

Irish and Schools

Those who supported the Irish tried to open new schools, but they were denied because many Irish lived in the “slums”.

The city council did not want to put any money in these “slums,” so no funding, means no schools.

At times there could be up to 20,000 Irish children in the streets during school hours because they did not want to be in a biased school system.

***Also take note the current school system although wrecked by the inclusion of black people is not biased to them they just CHOOSE not to go, The Irish had a reason.***


Irish and Employment

Not considered good enough for proper housing, they were forced to cling together in shanty towns, unable to find work because of the phrase, “NO IRISH NEED APPLY” in employment advertisements and the sign “NO SALESMEN, NO IRISH” could be found on doors of private homes as well as shops and other establishments. Poverty was not the only factor forcing the Irish to stay in the slums, shanties and cellars – they were also considered bad for the neighborhood as they were unfamiliar with the conveniences of plumbing and running water. Their living conditions bred disease and ultimately death with an estimated 80% of infants born to Irish immigrants in New York City dying.

***could you imagine a white person putting up a sign no salesmen no blacks. LA.A riots all over again***


In the Southern states, racism against the Irish took a different tack, with the Gaelic immigrants being compared with the black slaves. This led to a phenomenon known as the “black Irish”. Irish workers in these areas were referred to as “niggers turned inside out” while the slaves in turn would be called “smoked Irish.” In some cases, especially those revolving around political matters, the Irish and slaves were considered on a par for their ignorance.

Anti-Irish sentiment was also prevalent in the popular magazines and newspapers of the time through cartoons. A cartoonist influential in the permeating of negative Irish stereotypes was Thomas Nast, who portrayed Irish immigrants as drunks, prone to violence and possessing simian-like facial characteristics.

Irish racism did not really begin to decline until the latter half of the 19th Century. By this time large numbers of American-born Irish were experiencing social mobility and middle class culture became established within the Irish community. This was partly originated by a need to differentiate themselves from the black slaves and identify with the white American identity. Lace curtains also became a common sight in the windows of even the poorest Irish neighborhoods. Racism against the Irish declined also for the reason that as time progressed.


When they arrived in America, they were welcomed with racism, class struggle, religious persecution, and political inequality. The only difference between their homeland and this new land was the hope they had to be able to overcome these things in time.

You cant assume that the Irish had it better at all most came from Englad and you know the history between the Irish and British right. To assume it was light compared to the treatment of blacks is laughable at best at least until the later half of the 19th Century.




Well alot of Americans are from European decent we are all from Europe and share a common background.



I don't either i see poison being pushed on people if you could tell me what black culture is i would be most appreciative because as i see it now (when you turn on the TV or radio) It is ebonics, rap music, bling bling, stupid behavior, cool to be uneducated, cool to be ghetto, cool to not go to school, cool for a black person to mistreat women etc. Thats just how i see it on things like MTV if Afircan American culture is something different from that enlighten me please.

Shhh, don't confuse them with the facts. It's easier to live middle-class, "Uncle Tom" lives and pretend that the people in the ghetto aren't pointing fingers.

Of course, nobody has any business blaming someone else for their problems, everyone has the responsibility to make something of themselves, regardless of skin color.

Cephus, slavery did not end a "long, long time ago." We're not talking B.C., we're talking less than two hundred years. In the spectrum of history, this is not ancient.

My statement: "400 years of slavery, lynchings, Jim Crow, and general societal and government-mandated oppression that only officially ended forty years ago."

You focused only on the slavery part on that so you could arbitrarily dismiss the effects and say that because it happened so, so very long ago, there couldn't possibly still be any lingering effects on the black community. Uh, no. Let's try again? Segregation ended in 1964. Lynchings continued well into the 20th century. It is pure willful ignorance on your part to continue to chant "slavery was a long time ago! Slavery was a long time ago!" like slavery was the only racial slight in African-American history.



Sure, miscommunication is a problem. But it's not a problem that is the exclusive domain of whites vs. blacks. Black people are not the only group of people with certain manners of speaking and certain exclusive vocabulary - what I call a "soda" I've noticed, in the south they tend to call "pop." How is this any different from a white person saying "that's awesome" and a black person saying "that's phat?"



In reality, there are many different factors responsible for the situation blacks are in today. Just as I'm sure it ticks off conservatives who feel that liberals can't recognize the personal responsibility blacks have to take for their own success, likewise as a liberal I am ticked that there are conservatives who can't recognize that external factors do play a role in the state of the black community. I'm all for personal responsibility, Cephus. I can take responsibility as much as I can for my success. But it is pure folly to think that there are absolutely no lingering averse effects of racism that affect the black community today. Racism is not dead and buried, no matter what you might think. It is alive in lending practices. It is alive in sentencing discrepencies. It is alive in jury selections. It is alive in police profiling. Is racism the sole reason holding black people back from achieving social and financial success? No it is not, and I've never claimed that it is so I don't appreciate you attacking me like I've said that it is. All I have tried to do with you on this thread is to point out that it is a factor.

So which racist stereotype bugs you the most Zero Tolerance? It is the "few" who are "on welfare and getting free lawyers" or is the ones who "always say they dislike white people" or is the ones that "only dated white women."

Choose one. You've left out a few more like eating too much fried chicken, being shiftless and lazy and not being able to swim.

Well it is apparent that Cephus isn't going to provide me with any help and guidance as to how to "better myself" or help my kids "fit in." Oh well, I guess some people would rather exercise their petty prejudices and racial biases than work toward bringing about a racially diverse America. It's easier to criticize and disparage especially when you don't have to come up with any answers other than
...the next time you want to blame someone for not being treated equally or not fitting in, look in the mirror, there's the one you should blame.

Ah yes. Racism is only a figment of one's imagination. What an easy, simple and utterly inadequate solution.

If "integration" means I would have more in common with the likes of Zero Tolerance and Cephus" than I would with Turnea and Suzy Steamboat, then I don't want any part of it. That's a mindset I need to put a LOT of distance between because all it can do is hold me back. The goal of trying to achieve "honorary whiteness" is not something a battle worth waging.

What the aforementioned gentlemen want is not integration, but capitulation. All Blacks have to do is surrender their history, surrender their culture, surrender their identity and then...well, we still won't be White, but we won't be as offensive in our Blackness.

"Oppressed people resist by identifying themselves as subjects, by defining their reality, shaping their new identity, naming their history, telling their story."
---- feminist theorist bell hooks

Integration is access. That is all. Equal access leads to equal opportunity and that's it. I've written this elsewhere but it seems to bear repeating: Black people do not need the permission of White people to expect to be treated with the dignity and respect expected for a human being. The Creator made us all out of the same scrap metal and spare parts. He didn't make White People superior and Black People inferior and anyone that tries to convince me differently is a racist and a liar.



Assimilation is death. What Cephus and Zero Tolerance do is exalt their Whiteness by denigrating Blackness. Which makes me wonder what is so wonderful about "American" (read-White) society when it has to tear down others to make itself look big. But even when Cephus does feebly attempt to pay a Black man a compliment it wallows in stereotypes.



Really? Does he also have dreadlocks. listen to reggae and smoke big spliffs of ganja and guzzle Red Stripe all day long? I hope your "good friend" enjoys being your token Jamaican and living up to your stereotypes.

I'm not certain what exactly "mainstream America" is but it seems to be using up an ungodly amount of the world's natural resources while it drinks, dopes, drugs, and humps itself into insensibility.

* 90 percent of serial killers in modern history have been white.

* White high schoolers are 4.5 times more likely than blacks to have used cocaine; 3.6 times more likely to have gotten high using inhalants, like paint fumes or Liquid Paper; twice as likely as blacks to have used heroin; and six times more likely to have used methamphetamine. In fact, there are more white high school students who have used crystal meth than black students who regularly smoke cigarettes;

*whites are 11 percent more likely to have used drugs than blacks and 25 percent more likely to have done so than Hispanics.

* Whites are 43 percent more likely than blacks to drink alcohol and 27 percent more likely to binge drink than blacks (consuming five or more drinks at a time), with white youth more than twice as likely as black youth to binge;
– Whites are 74 percent more likely than blacks to binge drink regularly (at least five times monthly), and white youth are three times as likely to do so;
– In fact, there are more whites who binge drink at least once a month than there are blacks in the entire U.S. population!

Sources: Department of Health and Human Services, Centers for Disease Control,
National Household Drug Abuse Survey, Bureau of Justice Statistics.

Which race makes up the majority of pedophiles and child molesters? Which race is most addicted to and participates in extreme pornography? Which race has the highest divorce rate? Which race is more likely to be involved in Satan worship?

How broad do these stereotypes have to be before we stop fixating on what makes us so different instead of what makes us the same? The same group of misfits fumbling around on this green little ball trying to make it before the final curtain falls on us all?

Why should I lose me to make you feel that I am acceptable. Who died and put YOU in charge?



The role of Blacks and other people of color is to remind our White brothers and sisters that they need to disconnect from their misguided belief in their own infallible superiority and get back in touch with our shared humanity.

Not that I expect everyone to get behind the idea.

No that has been the case with most black people i have met in my personal experience(all of those attitudes or at least some i have seen displayed in alot of people)of growing up in the projects thats what blacks are like.




Blacks in the US are more likely to commit murder and other violent crimes (including rape) than anyone else...

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/ascii/htiuscdb.txt
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/ageracesex.htm
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/d_oars.htm
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/d_orace.htm

Blacks in the US commit more interracial crimes against Whites than vice versa…

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/d_ovrelrace.htm

Blacks in the US are more likely to commit infanticide than anyone else...

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homici...ren.htm#kidsrts
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homici...idsratestab.htm

Blacks in the US are more likely to spend time in jail than anyone else...

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/jailrair.htm

According to the 2000 Census, Blacks make up 12.3% of the US population. However, they have accounted for 368,169 (40%) of the 929,985 estimated AIDS cases diagnosed since the epidemic began.

Black men are seven times more likely than White men to have AIDS, and black women are 19 times more likely than White women to have AIDS, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention…

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/pubs/Facts/afam.htm

I know which one i would rather have for "mainstream America"

These are hard to answer from the outside, but it might add a different perspective...

To what degree are blacks "integrated into mainstream America"?

From what I can tell, in very general societal terms, blacks are not integrated into "mainstream America" to any great degree. (Not by comparison to the level of integration of Afro-Caribbeans are integrated into the UK, even though that in itself is not especially extensive, and the history and simple mathematics are dramatically different anyway.)

I don't think that the low level of integration is particularly because black Americans do not want to be successful and productive members of wider society. I think they do want that. However, they do not want to sacrifice who and what they are as the price of acceptance by "mainstream America".

I think black Americans want to believe in "The American Dream" as much, if not more, than any other group. They would love to believe that wealth, influence and happiness were obtainable on merit and hard work alone, rather than inheritance, networking and power plays. But their daily experience tells them that the American Dream is just that - a dream. A pleasant fantasy, but no more real than any other fantasy. .

For heaven's sake, many of the people in "mainstream America" who are telling blacks that they should pull themselves up by their bootstraps and stop relying on AA because it harks back to ancient history are the same people who look forward to a Jeb Bush candidacy at a future Presidential election (or indeed to a Hillary Clinton candidacy).

Is the irony of lionising the supposed (and largely imaginary) meritocratic ideals of the Grand Experiment that is America in one breath and then looking forward to the ossification of Presidential politics into some endless battle between two or three family dynasties completely invisible to these people? It seems so.

And, I do not think that black Americans want to sacrifice who and what they are as the price of acceptance into a system that their daily experience tells them is founded on sand anyway. Rich people, by and large, are rich because of who their parents and grandparents are, not because of any work they themselves do in their own lifetime. It so happens that most of them are white. And the (natural and understandable) agenda of rich people is to pull the ladder up behind them, as what's the point of being part of the power elite if you can either drop out of it at any moment or let so many people in with different agendas form your own that all the concentration of power and influence become diluted?

What does it mean to be "integrated into mainstream America"?
In the simplest terms, and in this context, this is another way of saying "white America".

Is integration desirable?
Despite everything I've said, I think it is. But only if "mainstream America" stops thinking and behaving as if all the movement has to come form the people it says have to do the integrating. Mainstream America needs to change, too. Not by "acting black" - that'll be no more successful or popular a strategy than "acting white". No - mainstream America needs to just allow minorities to act in ways they feel comfortable with, and needs to stamp out the prejudices that still remain, and understand the basis for the behaviour that they still don't like.

For example, relative (and, in too many cases for the world's most advanced economy, absolute) poverty still drives rather more of the "black" behaviour that "mainstream America" disapproves of than race does. Until "mainstream America" wakes up and realises that, instead preferring to blame black culture or blacks themselves, why they heck should they integrate.

There is also an historic analogy to consider. In recorded history, minority populations are always identified as "other" and differentiated in treatment, most often to their disadvantage. But, after several generations, those minorities that voluntarily arrived or merged - think of Hugenots in medieval England, or most hyphenated Americans from continental Europe - are more or less completely integrated.

By contrast, minority populations that have been forcibly merged (e.g. through invasion or enslavement) pretty much never give up their separate idea of themselves, even if it evolves over time or through intervention. (By forbidding the use of native languages, for example, as attempted by the English on the Celtic nations and, rather more successfully, by white Americans on their African slaves. Or by forcing a people from their ancestral homes and making them move somewhere they feel little or no connection to - for example the use of reservations for Native American tribes, or the Highland Clearances in Scotland, or the Irish Potato Famine.)

The one thing that history tells us about such oppressed minorities is that they never fully integrate, in the sense of becoming indistinguishable except by family name or looks. Even long after the worst, or even all, of the oppression is gone. Indeed, once free to do so, some groups around the world take active steps to revive some of their cultural differences - for example the revivals in minority languages in Catalonia or Wales.

And they never fully integrate because there is no reason for them to wish to do so. Their history is of repeated attempts of forced integration, through the attempted removal of chunks of their sense of separate identity, as part of a systematised oppression. (The degrees all vary, of course, but there are common threads in most cases.)

The Jews seem to be an exception to this hypothesis, until you consider that the pogroms and expulsions that have dogged them throughout history mean that they have almost always been refugees from somewhere, rather than incomers to somewhere, until the 20th century.

If you can think of ethnic or racial minority groups that fall outside this broad view, I'd be interested to hear about it.

Calls for everyone to suddenly become colour-blind from the groups of people that were, until relatively recently, sound to them more like hollow attempts to avoid feeling any guilt or accept any blame for continued unthinking or institutional prejudice. I mentioned Wales - which was repeatedly invaded by the English with varying success starting in the 12th century and finally conquered and subdued and "integrated" with the accession of the Welshman Henry Tudor to the English throne in 1485. Restrictions on the use of the Welsh language only relaxed in the latter half of the last century. The Welsh people, even those who do not speak the language, still think of themselves as separate to and different from the English. Much of what was the original Celtic Christian culture is now completely lost, replaced by choral singing, rugby, and an unhealthy affection for sheep (among other things, not all as cliched as that!). I have heard more than once in conversation about race relations in the UK someone say "I'm not white, I'm Welsh", usually as a way of distancing oneself from a white Englishman complaining about how such-and-such ethnic group comes over here and takes our jobs, blah-di-blah. It's a position I have some sympathy for.

Yet it has been over 400 years since the last lynching of a Welshman (despite the Chester bye-law that still permits the shooting with a bow & arrow of any Welshman seen on the city streets after dark).

In this light, it would be completely unprecedented if black Americans even considered giving up their separate idea of themselves to integrate with "mainstream America". And if there's any underlying hostility, black Americans would be more saintly than the Welsh (a logical impossibility *grin*) if they relax that hostility any time before 2365 A.D. Only 360 years to go.

It isn't black Americans who owe mainstream America anything - quite the reverse.

Is the definition of "mainstream America' the sole purview of Americans of European descent?
It is, but people of good conscience (no matter where their ancestors came from) should be working towards a position where it is not any more. That is some way off, as I think the tenor of this thread indicates.

What role do ethnic/racial minorities have to play in defining "mainstream America'?
"Mainstream America" is, or should be, a redundant concept outside political activism. Ethnic and racial minorities (including white males, the largest single minority) should collectively redefine "America". It won't take very much to do, as the present Constitution is pretty close to an ideal document in that regard already.

However, in many areas, especially in music, black culture is the mainstream. And for the most part, it always has been. A pet theory of mine is that almost all music is "of black origin". Jazz, soul, dance, rock n' roll, blues, most currently popular styles of music in the West were either explicitly invented by black musicians or they played a big part in inspiring of pioneering them. Even "white" music genres (e.g. European folk, country & western) just mean that the inspiration was taken, or appropriated, long enough ago to let people forget that is was originally "black" music. But that's a whole other thread...

No, I don't care about "Whiteness" or "Blackness", but about being human. It's just sad that you can't see beyond the color of someone's skin to their worth as a human being.

The White man doesn't matter to me. The Black man doesn't matter to me. The Yellow or Brown or Purple or Green men don't matter to me either. Only humans matter to me.

Maybe someday, you'll get past your inherent racism and it'll matter to you too.