Full Version: What has the WOT done?
Has the War on Terror made the world a better place to live? Has it improved the quality of life across the world on average? Has it made the world more free and peaceful?
QUOTE(Ranciduncle @ Jan 30 2003, 02:30 AM)
Has the War on Terror made the world a better place to live? Has it improved the quality of life across the world on average? Has it made the world more free and peaceful?
Well, I think you could also turn that around:
Have the terrorists made the world a better place to live? Have they improved the quality of life across the world on average? Have they made the world more free and peaceful?
And what would happne if we ignored them and hoped they go away?
QUOTE(Basheva @ Jan 30 2003, 09:43 AM)
And what would happne if we ignored them and hoped they go away?
9/11 all over again
Has the War on Terror made the world a better place to live? Has it improved the quality of life across the world on average? Has it made the world more free and peaceful?
I'm not sure really. When I think back to September of 2000 and the shock of it, its hard to imagine now what the world 'felt like' up until that event. I suppose the world, if it has changed much at all since the war on terror, (which I don't like calling a war) then it has become a more nervous place for many, and a more certain place for others. The latter being those 'hawks' who are prepared to war to defend themselves and their beliefs.
I can't help but wonder though if perhaps the bulk of the worlds population is not indifferent to the war on terrorism. After all, there are six billion people on the planet and the American population is but a small fraction of that number, never mind the three or so thousand who died in the WTC.
Even the 800 million or so Muslims are a minority on the global, and I don't believe that the majority of them (the Muslims) support the terrorists at all.
All in all then, I'd have to say that the war on terror has so far only really benefited the people of Afghanistan. Which is a good thing if their fledgling democracy survives.
I'm not sure really. When I think back to September of 2000 and the shock of it, its hard to imagine now what the world 'felt like' up until that event. I suppose the world, if it has changed much at all since the war on terror, (which I don't like calling a war) then it has become a more nervous place for many, and a more certain place for others. The latter being those 'hawks' who are prepared to war to defend themselves and their beliefs.I can't help but wonder though if perhaps the bulk of the worlds population is not indifferent to the war on terrorism. After all, there are six billion people on the planet and the American population is but a small fraction of that number, never mind the three or so thousand who died in the WTC.
Even the 800 million or so Muslims are a minority on the global, and I don't believe that the majority of them (the Muslims) support the terrorists at all.
All in all then, I'd have to say that the war on terror has so far only really benefited the people of Afghanistan. Which is a good thing if their fledgling democracy survives.
QUOTE(Ranciduncle @ Jan 29 2003, 06:30 PM)
Has the War on Terror made the world a better place to live? Has it improved the quality of life across the world on average? Has it made the world more free and peaceful?
No. But the duct tape and plastic sheeting companies are booming.
Get it? Booming?
I don't think it has yet. Life in Afganistan is much better then on September 11th. There have no new terror attacks in the United States. In ten years maybe the world will be safer.
QUOTE(Ranciduncle @ Feb 15 2003, 11:24 AM)
ten years maybe the world will be safer.
It might be a little safer
It all depends on who wants to rattle the hornet's nest
QUOTE(Ranciduncle @ Feb 15 2003, 04:24 PM)
I don't think it has yet. Life in Afganistan is much better then on September 11th. There have no new terror attacks in the United States. In ten years maybe the world will be safer.
QUOTE
I don't think it has yet. Life in Afganistan is much better then on September 11th. There have no new terror attacks in the United States. In ten years maybe the world will be safer.
Hmm. It's certainly too early to claim great success or failure. Afghanistan is a little less repressive than it was under the Taliban, it's true, but it's still not any kind of role model, and Islamist sentiment is still too strong there to think a democratic ordered Afghanistan would be any more pro-Western or pro-American than the Taliban were.
Certainly, there have been no new terror attacks inside the USA, but:
a) it's early yet
there have been attacks elsewhere (e.g. Bali), and this is meant to be a global warc) the tourism and aviation industries surely show that Americans (and many others) are behaving as if they are terrified. In such circumstances, surely there's no need to have any more attacks for now, as the first one is still working pretty well from the point of view of the perpetrators. Terrorists want to terrorise, and these terrorists want a clash between Islam and the West. This looks more likely now than it did before 9-11, so I'd be surprised if al-Qaeda weren't very pleased with how things are going so far.
And there has been no progress made in removing other terrorist states and organisations - we've left North Korea alone, more or less, since it looks like they'll have nukes very shortly. (No wonder Saddam wants them too - he probably thinks he'll be left alone if he has them.) We've also done nothing about the Indo-Pakistan tensions, or, most obviously, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
Other than chase A-Q into the shadows, break up the Taliban, and raise anti-American sentiment across the globe by selective sabre rattling against states we don't like that do things we disapprove of, while leaving other states that do similar things alone because we like them (today), what has T.W.A.T. achieved?
QUOTE(Julian @ Feb 17 2003, 07:53 PM)
c) the tourism and aviation industries surely show that Americans (and many others) are behaving as if they are terrified.
We've also done nothing about the Indo-Pakistan tensions, or, most obviously, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
We've also done nothing about the Indo-Pakistan tensions, or, most obviously, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
The Airline Industry has been in disarray before 9/11
QUOTE
We've also done nothing about the Indo-Pakistan tensions.
The Indo-Pakistan tension has been calm since they were almost on the verge of a nuclear exchange in Jan. 2002
I'm not sure if I would use the word calm...
India-Pakistan shelling forces villagers to flee
That situation is far from stable, although it is better than where it was. Pakistan has in some ways benefitted tremendously from the WOT (at least the current Junta) in that their military dictatorship has gone unchallenged by the international community.
QUOTE
Islamic guerrillas are trying to infiltrate Indian Kashmir under the cover of heavy artillery exchanges that have prompted hundreds to flee their border homes this week, police and officials said.
According to Indian officials, Pakistani troops have been shelling Indian positions across divided Kashmir's de facto border "to push into Jammu and Kashmir groups of rebels under the cover of fire," and keep the anti-India rebellion "alive."
According to Indian officials, Pakistani troops have been shelling Indian positions across divided Kashmir's de facto border "to push into Jammu and Kashmir groups of rebels under the cover of fire," and keep the anti-India rebellion "alive."
India-Pakistan shelling forces villagers to flee
That situation is far from stable, although it is better than where it was. Pakistan has in some ways benefitted tremendously from the WOT (at least the current Junta) in that their military dictatorship has gone unchallenged by the international community.
QUOTE(goamerica @ Feb 18 2003, 02:00 AM)
QUOTE(Julian @ Feb 17 2003, 07:53 PM)
c) the tourism and aviation industries surely show that Americans (and many others) are behaving as if they are terrified.
We've also done nothing about the Indo-Pakistan tensions, or, most obviously, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
We've also done nothing about the Indo-Pakistan tensions, or, most obviously, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
The Airline Industry has been in disarray before 9/11
Really? (And I hope I'll be forgiven for the digression from topic). none of the company reports of the airlines or aircraft manufacturers seem to think that.
Well what would have happened if the US and other countries hadn't:
Taken out a terrorist cell in Buffalo
Stopped terrorists trying to get in from Canada
Taken out the Taliban/Al-Qaeda
Arrested all of the Sept. 11th hijackers?
I'd say that it would be a whole lot worse had not the US and it's allies done these things and started teh war on terror.
CP
Taken out a terrorist cell in Buffalo
Stopped terrorists trying to get in from Canada
Taken out the Taliban/Al-Qaeda
Arrested all of the Sept. 11th hijackers?
I'd say that it would be a whole lot worse had not the US and it's allies done these things and started teh war on terror.
CP
I went to the dentist's office last night and happened upon an issue of TIME in the waiting room. It was from October right after the Bali bombing, only four months ago. It had an in dept report on Al Quaeda.
One thing they said seemed to spell it out... Al Quaeda is not an organization, it's a movement. They are everywhere and they are organized. Kind of like how US troops move all over the world training and arming fighters for our cause? This is what Al Quaeda does. They go to places like Chechnya and work with their terrorists and 'freedom fighters'. And their goal is target the West. Not just America but Australia, France, Germany, etc.
They say there is another big event planned. Big like 9/11. I'm sure we are the target for that, though.
It seems to me we have completely lost the focus on handling the terrorist problems...instead we are doing everything to exacerbate them. This is not something that can be cured with conventional war.
One thing they said seemed to spell it out... Al Quaeda is not an organization, it's a movement. They are everywhere and they are organized. Kind of like how US troops move all over the world training and arming fighters for our cause? This is what Al Quaeda does. They go to places like Chechnya and work with their terrorists and 'freedom fighters'. And their goal is target the West. Not just America but Australia, France, Germany, etc.
They say there is another big event planned. Big like 9/11. I'm sure we are the target for that, though.
It seems to me we have completely lost the focus on handling the terrorist problems...instead we are doing everything to exacerbate them. This is not something that can be cured with conventional war.
QUOTE(Danya @ Feb 19 2003, 06:46 PM)
I went to the dentist's office last night and happened upon an issue of TIME in the waiting room. It was from October right after the Bali bombing, only four months ago. It had an in dept report on Al Quaeda.
One thing they said seemed to spell it out... Al Quaeda is not an organization, it's a movement. They are everywhere and they are organized. Kind of like how US troops move all over the world training and arming fighters for our cause? This is what Al Quaeda does. They go to places like Chechnya and work with their terrorists and 'freedom fighters'. And their goal is target the West. Not just America but Australia, France, Germany, etc.
They say there is another big event planned. Big like 9/11. I'm sure we are the target for that, though.
It seems to me we have completely lost the focus on handling the terrorist problems...instead we are doing everything to exacerbate them. This is not something that can be cured with conventional war.
One thing they said seemed to spell it out... Al Quaeda is not an organization, it's a movement. They are everywhere and they are organized. Kind of like how US troops move all over the world training and arming fighters for our cause? This is what Al Quaeda does. They go to places like Chechnya and work with their terrorists and 'freedom fighters'. And their goal is target the West. Not just America but Australia, France, Germany, etc.
They say there is another big event planned. Big like 9/11. I'm sure we are the target for that, though.
It seems to me we have completely lost the focus on handling the terrorist problems...instead we are doing everything to exacerbate them. This is not something that can be cured with conventional war.
How many Sept. 11ths have we avoided with our counter terror organizations though? God only knows what might have happened without our anti-terror war.
CP
QUOTE(Conservpat @ Feb 19 2003, 03:46 PM)
Well what would have happened if the US and other countries hadn't:
Taken out a terrorist cell in Buffalo
Stopped terrorists trying to get in from Canada
Taken out the Taliban/Al-Qaeda
Arrested all of the Sept. 11th hijackers?
I'd say that it would be a whole lot worse had not the US and it's allies done these things and started teh war on terror.
CP
Taken out a terrorist cell in Buffalo
Stopped terrorists trying to get in from Canada
Taken out the Taliban/Al-Qaeda
Arrested all of the Sept. 11th hijackers?
I'd say that it would be a whole lot worse had not the US and it's allies done these things and started teh war on terror.
CP
Other than the Ressam case, which came to the news long before Sept. 11, how has Canada posed a threat to the U.S. Did a single Terrorist from 9/11 enter from Canada?
The topic is "What has the WOT done?" It's smeared a country that has done nothing but sacrifice it's own sovereignty in an effort to make the U.S. feel at ease.
QUOTE(Ultimatejoe @ Feb 19 2003, 07:11 PM)
QUOTE(Conservpat @ Feb 19 2003, 03:46 PM)
Well what would have happened if the US and other countries hadn't:
Taken out a terrorist cell in Buffalo
Stopped terrorists trying to get in from Canada
Taken out the Taliban/Al-Qaeda
Arrested all of the Sept. 11th hijackers?
I'd say that it would be a whole lot worse had not the US and it's allies done these things and started teh war on terror.
CP
Taken out a terrorist cell in Buffalo
Stopped terrorists trying to get in from Canada
Taken out the Taliban/Al-Qaeda
Arrested all of the Sept. 11th hijackers?
I'd say that it would be a whole lot worse had not the US and it's allies done these things and started teh war on terror.
CP
Did a single Terrorist from 9/11 enter from Canada?
The topic is "What has the WOT done?" It's smeared a country that has done nothing but sacrifice it's own sovereignty in an effort to make the U.S. feel at ease.
NO, a terrorist hasn't entered from Canada, partially because we have stopped them from entering from Canada.
CP
And I suppose that if it weren't for the U.S. terrorists would just be screaming past the border? The CANADIAN government, in concert with the U.S. government, has prevented terrorists from taking advantage of our unique friendship. I find your language disturbing and offensive.
QUOTE(Conservpat @ Feb 19 2003, 02:13 PM)
NO, a terrorist hasn't entered from Canada, partially because we have stopped them from entering from Canada.
CP
CP
Can you support this claim?
QUOTE(Ultimatejoe @ Feb 19 2003, 07:17 PM)
And I suppose that if it weren't for the U.S. terrorists would just be screaming past the border? The CANADIAN government, in concert with the U.S. government, has prevented terrorists from taking advantage of our unique friendship. I find your language disturbing and offensive.
You know, I did say partially dude. the other part being Canadan boarder patrol. Geeze.
CP
QUOTE(Jaime @ Feb 19 2003, 07:19 PM)
QUOTE(Conservpat @ Feb 19 2003, 02:13 PM)
NO, a terrorist hasn't entered from Canada, partially because we have stopped them from entering from Canada.
CP
CP
Can you support this claim?
Yes, a terrorist hasn't blown up anything. PLus the news has shown many thwarted attempts by terrosits to get into the counrty.
CP
QUOTE(Conservpat @ Feb 19 2003, 02:21 PM)
Yes, a terrorist hasn't blown up anything. PLus the news has shown many thwarted attempts by terrosits to get into the counrty.
CP
CP
An absence of something DOES NOT mean that the US has stopped any terrorists. It may mean there weren't any.
And I was asking for some of these elusive news articles to which you refer. Evidence, please.
Conservpat, are you referring to the scare over the five terrorists who were supposedly at large in the U.S. recently?
This is the sort of stuff that your postings seem to stink of: ...)
Canadians not bombastic, and that's good
on edit: Conservpat, that "evidence" of yours is from an article that's three years old!
QUOTE
U.S. politicians routinely call for tighter security and have repeatedly pointed fingers northward, alleging that Canada is a haven for terrorists who can easily slip through a porous border to do harm to the United States.
Like the FBI alert on the five men, many of these claims were unsubstantiated. For example, the belief that some of the Sept. 11 hijackers entered the United States from Canada was proved untrue.
THIS is my concern. No apology but Clinton says her remark was "misinterpretted."Like the FBI alert on the five men, many of these claims were unsubstantiated. For example, the belief that some of the Sept. 11 hijackers entered the United States from Canada was proved untrue.
This is the sort of stuff that your postings seem to stink of:
QUOTE
Hence, we have unilateralism, which, according to Bill O'Reilly of Fox News, means the U.S. military should post guards along the 49th parallel because of the inability of "socialist Canada" to stop terrorists from crossing the border.
although if that wasn't your intent I'm sorry. I still think that this nation has borne a tremendous amount of undeserved criticism as a DIRECT RESULT of the WOT (to stay on topic ...)Canadians not bombastic, and that's good
on edit: Conservpat, that "evidence" of yours is from an article that's three years old!
QUOTE(Ultimatejoe @ Feb 19 2003, 07:45 PM)
I still think that this nation has borne a tremendous amount of undeserved criticism as a DIRECT RESULT of the WOT (to stay on topic ...)
on edit: Conservpat, that "evidence" of yours is from an article that's three years old!
...)on edit: Conservpat, that "evidence" of yours is from an article that's three years old!
Wait a sec, I think we might agree with each other, that is what I'm trying to say too
. Also, I had other examples, but I thought taht was the best. 
CP
Wow... break out the champagne!
QUOTE(Ultimatejoe @ Feb 19 2003, 07:53 PM)
Wow... break out the champagne!
CP
Let's try and take this seriously, please.
QUOTE
It all depends on who wants to rattle the hornet's nest
Do you want to invade Sudan, Saudi Arabia, Algeria, Sudan, Iraq, Iran, Yemen, Egypt, Somalia, Indonesia and Pakistan? America can only win by getting the message out that we want to bring democracy and peace to the rest of the world.
QUOTE(Ranciduncle @ Jan 30 2003, 02:30 AM)
Has the War on Terror made the world a better place to live? Has it improved the quality of life across the world on average? Has it made the world more free and peaceful?
I think the jury is still out on the war of terror, as it is not over yet. I don't think it changed the world much, nor do I think it will. It has however made America a little more secure...it's hard for a terrorist organization to carry out terrorist attacks when your training camps are destroyed, assets have been frozen, operatives have been arrested, you suffered thousands of casualties, and you are scattered and on the run.
The fact that there hasn't been a terrorist attack on American soil since the war on terror started, and international attacks by Al Qaeda have been unsofisticated, points to the success of the war on terror so far. Had we not acted, there is no doubt that there probably would have been other major attacks carried out by now.
Afghanistan is also better off now. While I don't think it is a model of democracy and human rights...at least it's not the Taliban.
Recent events show the WOT is having a major impact.
A Florida professor was indicted for being a major 'money man' for the Islamic Jihad. This Palestinian terror outfit publicly states that it will not attack US interests in retaliation. Why? Because Iran has indicated that it would not support any retaliation, and they are major supporters of this terrorist group. And why won't Iran support retaliation? Because they fear what the WOT will bring to them after it has taken care of Iraq.
Now, does anyone believe that this would have been the result if it occurred before we began our WOT?
Face it, a large part of the world does not respect or respond to anything but force. We should be thankful for having a President who understands that and has the will to do what's necessary.
We are being tested every day, on many fronts. We can not afford to show weakness of any kind.
God bless America and those who defend its freedom.
A Florida professor was indicted for being a major 'money man' for the Islamic Jihad. This Palestinian terror outfit publicly states that it will not attack US interests in retaliation. Why? Because Iran has indicated that it would not support any retaliation, and they are major supporters of this terrorist group. And why won't Iran support retaliation? Because they fear what the WOT will bring to them after it has taken care of Iraq.
Now, does anyone believe that this would have been the result if it occurred before we began our WOT?
Face it, a large part of the world does not respect or respond to anything but force. We should be thankful for having a President who understands that and has the will to do what's necessary.
We are being tested every day, on many fronts. We can not afford to show weakness of any kind.
God bless America and those who defend its freedom.
QUOTE(Ranciduncle @ Feb 20 2003, 07:02 AM)
QUOTE
It all depends on who wants to rattle the hornet's nest
Do you want to invade Sudan, Saudi Arabia, Algeria, Sudan, Iraq, Iran, Yemen, Egypt, Somalia, Indonesia and Pakistan? America can only win by getting the message out that we want to bring democracy and peace to the rest of the world.
The war on terror is not against specific countries, that is completely different from Bush's objective,
CP
It's only against specific countries if the big cheese of the country is a terrorist...kinda like ~~cough~~SADDAM~~cough~~
The terrorists we are fighting have box-cutters and guns. You don't need a state to hide in to commit terrorism. Unpopular wars only create more terrorists.
Iraq isn't the only country that supports terror. Is the big cheese of North Korea a terrorist? I don't see any evidence that Al Queda has any ties to Iraq. Why is Iraq so dangerous now?
Back to the question I don't think a war in Iraq will help to win the WOT.
What is his objective other than making Ameican an ultra conservative police state?
QUOTE
It's only against specific countries if the big cheese of the country is a terrorist...kinda like ~~cough~~SADDAM~~cough~~
Iraq isn't the only country that supports terror. Is the big cheese of North Korea a terrorist? I don't see any evidence that Al Queda has any ties to Iraq. Why is Iraq so dangerous now?
Back to the question I don't think a war in Iraq will help to win the WOT.
QUOTE
The war on terror is not against specific countries, that is completely different from Bush's objective,
What is his objective other than making Ameican an ultra conservative police state?
QUOTE(Ranciduncle @ Mar 1 2003, 11:05 AM)
QUOTE
It's only against specific countries if the big cheese of the country is a terrorist...kinda like ~~cough~~SADDAM~~cough~~
Iraq isn't the only country that supports terror. Is the big cheese of North Korea a terrorist?
Yeah but the nut in North Korea needs to be handled with care because that nut could, if he wanted to, nuke Seoul.
QUOTE(Ranciduncle @ Jan 29 2003, 09:30 PM)
Has the War on Terror made the world a better place to live? Has it improved the quality of life across the world on average? Has it made the world more free and peaceful?
PLEASE DEBATE THIS TOPIC.
QUOTE(Ranciduncle @ Mar 1 2003, 04:05 PM)
The terrorists we are fighting have box-cutters and guns. You don't need a state to hide in to commit terrorism. Unpopular wars only create more terrorists.
Iraq isn't the only country that supports terror. Is the big cheese of North Korea a terrorist? I don't see any evidence that Al Queda has any ties to Iraq. Why is Iraq so dangerous now?
Back to the question I don't think a war in Iraq will help to win the WOT.
What is his objective other than making Ameican an ultra conservative police state?
QUOTE
It's only against specific countries if the big cheese of the country is a terrorist...kinda like ~~cough~~SADDAM~~cough~~
Iraq isn't the only country that supports terror. Is the big cheese of North Korea a terrorist? I don't see any evidence that Al Queda has any ties to Iraq. Why is Iraq so dangerous now?
Back to the question I don't think a war in Iraq will help to win the WOT.
QUOTE
The war on terror is not against specific countries, that is completely different from Bush's objective,
What is his objective other than making Ameican an ultra conservative police state?
A police state, come on, America is still the freest place in the world. People need to understand that these sacrifises will pay off, and we will capture and disrupt more terror organizations.
CP
Care to verify your statement that America is the most "free" state? I consider myself more "free" here in Canada than I ever would in the states.
Proof is the best way for people to understand, and the people responsible for these changes have been extremely short on proof.
QUOTE
People need to understand that these sacrifises will pay off, and we will capture and disrupt more terror organizations.
Proof is the best way for people to understand, and the people responsible for these changes have been extremely short on proof.
QUOTE(Conservpat @ Mar 23 2003, 05:20 PM)
A police state, come on, America is still the freest place in the world. People need to understand that these sacrifises will pay off, and we will capture and disrupt more terror organizations.
What definition of "freedom" are you using? I wouldn't be surprised if the people of several nations consider themselves more free than we are. In the Netherlands, for example, you can smoke a joint and visit a brothel - or both at once - without legal trouble. Not so here. We have the DMCA and PATRIOT act; they don't. Citizens of Australia could probably point to similar examples, and the list doesn't end there. Of people I know who have actually lived outside the US, I don't think I know one who would not even qualify or limit a statement that the US offered the greatest freedom. Most would reject it outright.
That said, "police state" is still way over the top.
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