FROM THE BBC NEWS:
A Danish pizzeria owner who refused to serve German and French customers because of their countries' position on the Iraq war has been convicted of racial discrimination.

Aage Bjerre, who owns Aage's Pizza in Nordby on the tourist island of Fanoe, was fined 5,000 kroner (673 euros).
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I believe that this man took a stand in a privately owned restaurant, and he should be allowed to serve whomever he so chooses. However, my opinion holds no water in reference to legality.
That being said...
Questions for debate:

1. If an American pizza shop in an international market, let's say NYC, decided not to serve French or Germans, what would the legal ramifications be?

2. Would an American stand be good or bad for such a pizza shop's business?

3. Would you patronize such a business?

1. If an American pizza shop in an international market, let's say NYC, decided not to serve French or Germans, what would the legal ramifications be? I'd expect a similar penalty (a fine), though I'm not knowledgeable enough to know the specifics on legal action for discriminatory practices. I'm quite certain it is illegal serve only certain ethnicities but not others.

2. Would an American stand be good or bad for such a pizza shop's business? I think eliminating anyone from a business' base of customers is bad business practice.

3. Would you patronize such a business? NO WAY. Most of the friends I go out with in Vegas are French. I can't imagine how angry I would be if they turned our group away, but I could come in alone. About as angry as I'd be if my Italian mother couldn't go into a restaurant with me. I'd probably be disgusted enough to picket the place.

eh, whatever. wish I could delete.

I apologize for not including a link... here you go.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2978886.stm

By my second question, I was asking if an American did the same thing, in let's say NYC, how would that effect their business?

I personally believe that this is absolutely hilarious. Did you all see the signs with the french and german people crossed out?? .. and great for morale to boot.

How many of you have been to Europe lately? As I've mentioned before, I work for an international company, and my recent trip to Cannes was AWFUL (except for the fact that the country is beautiful..). They treat Americans as if we have some communicable disease and want nothing but for us to go away. Some of that is French culture, but mostly it's because we're American (and don't speak a lick of French). Why not return the favor??? I know... two wrongs don't make a right. However- it sure makes me feel better!

In my mind, it's about time that someone said enough is enough... and if you want pizza; not in my store!

Law suits??? Come on. It's freakin' pizza... but then again you're probably right. Only Americans would sue over pizza.

Have to be honest here... when all the "boycott the French" thing started, I went to the nearest wine store and bought two cases of Beaujolais wine... even though I usually drink German Riesling. Then used Air France on my trip to Germany, even though I usually use KLM. Nothing is more stupid than boycotting a nation for actions of its leaders - and on a personal very small scale I took a stand against it.
I would never patronize a business that shows the door to some of its customers. It doesn't matter whether its in New York or Paris - I wouldn't go to a restaurant in France which would display a sign saying something like "Yankees are not welcome here".

Edited to add: I wonder if someone would dare to put a Pizza stand in New York saying "Those who don't support our policy in Iraq are not welcome". It's easy to target foreigners and mask own xenophobic feelings under the mask of patriotism; it's much harder to exclude your own compatriots, especially in the city such as New York.



How's it possible that someone who works in an International company that deals with French customers doesn't speak a lick of French?
Could that display of disrespect be a reason for their reaction?
I go to Europe often and not once I've been treated badly.

This wouldn't boost my morale...it would make me sad, and think of the times in the 1880s I've read about when 'No Irish Allowed' signs dotted the buildings.



You're targetting the wrong people. The French and Germans who visit us are not the ones who don't like us, so discriminating against them would only leave the with a bad impression of America, which they didn't have before. I'd rather put up "French and Germans especially welcome signs" to thank them for coming all that way to see us and leave them with a better (and, IMO, more accurate) impression of us. I actually do agree with product boycotts (not that I would boycott anything European, but I am trying to boycott Chinese products to the best of my ability), the Europeans do this as well and it has hurt American products, so if you wish to make an impression, that's the way to do it. I think we should also remember that Europe, for all of its faults, is among the very best of friends we have...not so for so many other countries we are compelled to work with out of necessity (or in some cases sheer stupidity and/or greed).

*Edited to change 1980s to 1880s

Actually, not at all. Our French office handles French customers, as our UK office handles British customers, etc. I was in Cannes recently to aid in the film festival, of which many patrons are actually Americans.

We spent over a week working and interacting with the citizens of France, of whom were very interested in us in the event that we were spending money... but rarely hospitable in any case.

I also travel to Japan on occasion. I suppose you'd expect that I speak Japanese?

This is all a hypothetical thread, of which I really just like to hear what people have to say. Most posts hold the same tone, of which I can see the merit, but do like that this pizza guy took a stand on this one...

Took a stand? Because he doesn't agree with an opinion held by some people who come from the same country as some of his customers?

Why couldn't the guy just put up a big sign in the shop that said "We support the war in Iraq" or whatever. Then the customers could choose whether to go there or not. (Heck, I'd give my business to such a shop, if the pizza was good! Why should I care if the shop owner has different opinions than I do.)

Refusing to serve an individual because of a government's position makes no sense to me at all. If this fellow refused to serve Americans because he doesn't agree with the policies of the current administration, would you still be pleased that he "took a stand"? I sure wouldn't be.

1. I'm not sure. Most businesses have that annoying "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone" sign in the window, so maybe they could get away with it. The business would get a lot of bad publicity, though, and would lose a lot of customers, even if it didn't get into legal trouble.

2. As said above, I think it would be terrible for business. I think most folks are decent enough to be offended by such a policy.

3. Heck, no.

With regard to your recent French visit, aevans176, I think it would be a mistake to conflate political hostility to Americans with the general French hostility to anyone who doesn't speak French - especially if what they do speak is English.

That's probably our fault - we have spent so much time at war with or occupying France in the past 1000 years, they have fairly deep-seated objections to Anglophones.

In my experience, French people generally have an assumption of superiority, much of it justified. This leads to resentment that the world language is English and not French, and that the dominant nation is Anglophone. (Mainly because the Brits largely beat the French and Spanish in North America in the 17th and 18th centuries. A quirk of history that could have gone the other way, in which case you'd be complaining in French about how rude the British were for being rude to anyone who didn't speak English.)

It also leads to a deep inability to be as good at customer service as Americans are used to. Nowhere else I've visited in the developed world is as good at making visitors feel welcome as the USA, both in commerce and retailing, and in ordinary day-to-day life.

I've met Americans, there and here, and I've talked to other Brits who've been in similar contact. It's quite the norm to get invited me to visit them. "Come and stay in Such-and-such town", they will say. The British will say this too, but imagine it is fairly unlikely, and mean "come and stay in a local hotel and we can go out to dinner as a group, and maybe visit some local attractions on another day". Americans more often mean "come and stay in our house and enjoy our personal hospitality, and we will act as your personal tour guide to the area", which we find strange, and somewhat shaming. This is difference is, I think, partly due to British stand-offishness. Partly due to the smaller size of most British houses (we don't have as much room for guests). And partly due to underlying Brit inferiority complexes (they couldn't possible want to spend that much time with us). And in matters of hospitality and being welcoming to strangers, the French are typically like the British, only more so.

So, I think it's worth remembering that the French can usually seem much more rude and distant to foreign visitors than they consciously intend to be. (Though they can also be as consciously rude as anyone on the planet when they intend to be!)

1. If an American pizza shop in an international market, let's say NYC, decided not to serve French or Germans, what would the legal ramifications be?
I have no idea. I doubt any French or German citizens would bother to sue - typically they aren't that litigious - or even complain. An international market like NYC has enough pizza shops that they could just buy elsewhere, so only the owners business would suffer, and even then only marginally.
But here's where I think your analogy falls over - this guys is in a tiny community where German business is a big seasonal factor. In a village of 3,000 people, I'd guess there isn't a huge amount of choice about where to eat.
So imagine instead that someone in NYC refuses to serve a much larger part of their customer base - let's say, for the sake of argument, students, or white people. Or, maybe they are operating somewhere in the US that's a similar size to this Danish village, that has a similar proportion if it's potential customer base in the excluded group. Maybe an Indian reservation village with a casino that refuses to serve white people who gamble. Or a Texas border town that refuses to serve Hispanics - after all, some of them could be illegals, and that's wrong, right?
I would imagine the legal ramifications in such situations would be that sooner or later, someone would sue, or the authorities would take similar action to the Danish authorities. And the guy running such stores would be losing money hand over fist.

2. Would an American stand be good or bad for such a pizza shop's business?
I'd say it would be bad for business in cases directly analogous to the Danish one. From the article you linked to:

He says he has already lost nearly 50,000 kroner ($7,800) because of a drop in business and was fined 5,000 kroner ($787)..

He lost nearly ten times as much from the harm his "principled stand" did to his business as he did from the fine he was ordered to pay. That's just bad business! He gets a certain amount of kudos for sticking to his principles, but I humbly suggest this guy isn't someone any sane business would want on their payroll.

3. Would you patronize such a business?
I wouldn't be keen to seek such a business out, no. But on this form, it would be around for very long anyway, so it wouldn't much matter. Besides, Denmark is famous for many things, but as far as I'm aware, pizza isn't one of them.

I can't really answer the first two questions since I'm not an American and I have no idea how Americans would act in such cases, but I can have a stab at the third question.

Would you patronize such a business?

If I knew about his stance? then no. I would not patronize any one who made such a distinction, and furthermore I would question his motives.

First of all, there are very few French tourists in Denmark and lots of Germans, so the addition of the French in this context strikes me as being a smoke screen.

Second, there is a strong feeling of brooding anti German xenophobia in certain parts of Denmark (most usually those parts which have a lot of German tourists) and Fanø is one such place.

Third, the majority of Danes are against the 'war' in Iraq and US foreign policy that brought it about and this man has not dared to make any such distinctions regarding his domestic customers.

5,000 kroner is peanuts. I would have fined him a lot more.

1. Probably nothing. If he decided not to serve blacks or latinos, however, he'd be in serious hot water. Discrimination and racism is allowed in America. But, only against certain groups and against people that have certain physical characteristics.

2. It would be bad. Business is business. A smart businessman doesn't care what his customer's look or sound like. Green is the only color that matters in business.

3. It depends on how good the pizza was. But, I'm part German so he might not serve me anyway.

I think that has already been defined as a crime. Privately owner or not, if a business is open to the public it must be open to all the public. Disclaimer signs reserving the right not to serve certain people refer to certain INDIVIDUALS, such as someone who is drunk and/or disorderly, or in the case of eateries, people who are not attired properly (shoes and shirts). To target a GROUP of people is blatantly discriminatory, to target a group of people based on race is likewise - racial discrimination - which I believe has already been established as a crime.

If you want to discriminate against someone then you have to run a PRIVATE establishment (as in for members, or specific demographical groups only) you can, but I believe that local ordinances require posting as such, and even then it cannot be to exclude specific peoples, but rather to be for specific peoples only. In other words you can have a Hibernian hall for Irish people only, but not an establishment for everyone "except"........




Unless he makes the news and gets the fanatical patriot crowd to show up I would say it would be bad for business to limit your potential customers. Even if the "flag shirt" wearing crowd comes, odds are they will not last long enough to compensate for the loss of other customers - depending on how many peoples this shop keep decides to discriminate against.



Nope. not if I could help it.

On a side note, I've been to France, and I had no problems what so ever. I was expecting the snotty French attitude based on what I had heard, and even experienced a little, when I worked in Manhattan, but never found it. The only difference I did notice was that the employes at tourist places are a bit less patient, something I can understand, and holds true of most major cities I've visited. Then again, maybe they were being rude, maybe even cursed me to my face, don't know enough French to know the difference.

Oh yeah, and despite all this, apparently THE FRENCH WERE RIGHT!