So, in Oakland, California, Ebonics [black dialect/slang] is being taught in schools and is encouraged up until the fifth grade. Here are a few links: Article
Actual Ebonics Resolution

From the article:

So the questions for debate are:
Do you think that Ebonics should be encouraged and taught in public schools? Why and why not?

Do you think Ebonics is helpful or harmful to the African-American community as a whole?

Do you believe that as a whole, the African-American community should attempt to curtail Ebonics as an attempt to assimilate?

A plea for civility: For the love of God/Allah/Yaweh/Budha/Vishnu, let's debate this with the civility and respect that the greatest debating forum on the planet deserves.

CP

I can debate this with civility and respect, ConservPat, but I just want to ask why are we debating an issue that dates back to 1997?

I actually just recently heard about this, this week and specifically last night while watching The Situation W/Tucker Carlson. So basically, we're debating it because I accidently turned on MSNBC last night

By the way, I hope my "plea for civility" didn't come across as pointing out any one debater in particular...We just have a history at of having extremely heated Race Debates.

CP

Actually, ebonics be, er, is back in the news in San Bernadino, CA.

Apparently, they are teaching ebonics-speakers as if they speak a foreign language. So, I guess English will be taught as a foreign language.

Do you think that Ebonics should be encouraged and taught in public schools? Why and why not?

No. It is not correct English.

Do you think Ebonics is helpful or harmful to the African-American community as a whole?

Harmful.

Do you believe that as a whole, the African-American community should attempt to curtail Ebonics as an attempt to assimilate?

Yes.

How can "Ebonics" be a separate language if it doesn't have its own distinct vocabulary? Isn't almost every word in "Ebonics" also a word in English?

Is Spanglish also a separate language? I'm betting it has a a lot more non-English words than "Ebonics".

Well sir, the funny thing is that you can generally understand "ebonics" as a coined phrase... but I live in TX where Spanish is a commodity. Nearly 1/2 the McDonalds and all of the gov't offices have signs in both languages, you don't have to speak English to get a drivers license, and no one seems to care.

I did see the links to it being back in the news, but never believe that "ebonics" will take hold anywhere that has a realistically prominent population of black people. No one I've ever met takes it seriously, and being from a very "black" state originally... I can say with assuredness that people don't see it as a viable course of action in most cases.

Now... if we were to discuss our pandering to the non-english speaking portion of the US and the troubles that it causes (with police and fire depts, hospitals, etc) then we'd have a debate!!!

Do you think that Ebonics should be encouraged and taught in public schools? Why and why not?

Well no, it shouldn't be taught. And if you read the interview with Ms. Secret, you will soon see that Ebonics is not being taught at all. They are still teaching kids to use correct English. The difference is, well, here's her own words:



It's changing only the way in which these kids are taught correct English grammar. And apparently it seems to be working. She goes on to say:



And people actually have a problem with this? I just don't get it. It seems like creating an issue out of nothing.

Do you think Ebonics is helpful or harmful to the African-American community as a whole?

It depends, really. Any kind of dialect, accent, or slang can be a barrier if you are trying to become Joe Corporate. For the majority of people, it doesn't really matter. I lived in Virginia from age 11 to 21; I worked construction jobs where I couldn't understand 75% of what the foreman was telling me - a good ol' white boy. But he was good at his job and he was the boss.

Do you believe that as a whole, the African-American community should attempt to curtail Ebonics as an attempt to assimilate?

Um, no. I object to the question. First of all, how would they do this? At meetings of the "African-American Community Club?" Would their "black leaders" decree it and the automatons obey? And what does assimilate mean? Become more like white people? Stop "acting black?" This is so meaningless. Black culture for a long time was separate - we made sure of that! But the 20th century saw a steady increase of black influence on our national culture - Jazz, blues, dances, rock n roll, soul, funk. I am picking out music because it's an area I know about, but there are many others. In short, the question is meaningless because there is nothing they need to assimilate to. They are already there.

It's also a bit silly for us to harp on Ebonics while every other store these days is a "Quik Mart," while grocery stores have signs saying "12 items or less."

Now, don't get me wrong - I think education is important, and learning correct English grammar is important. Kids who speak foreign languages, or use a lot of slang or various dialects, will have a better chance to succeed in life if they learn to speak and write correct English.

Which is exactly what is happening in Oakland.

but quarkhead, do you think that people who honestly believe that "ebonics" is a distinct language are capable of effectively teaching our children English?

From the current (San Bernadino) article:
"Ebonics" is an accent or dialect. It's no different than an upper-midwestern Germanic accent or Minnesota Scandinavian accent or even my bad South-side-of-Chicago accent, which appears after a few beerssss. (long "ess" pronunciation from Chicago's bohemian / German immigrants - think "da bearsss" from SNL). To say that it is a separate language is to say that being Southern makes you bilingual.

What they were saying in Oakland and now in San Bernadino is that "Ebonics" is a separate language from English. Distinct. Not a dialect. And that is absurd, which is why many question their true mission or motivation and likely results. The current mantra in teaching technique is a "guide on the side" rather than "a sage on the stage." If I had black children in California, I'd suggest that a sage speaking English would better serve children in the real world (corporate Joe wanna be's or not) vs. some "ebonics" speaking guide.

All that said, I agree that approaching English using some English-as-a-second-language tools may be a good idea in every classroom, given the diversity of the student population in Cali.

It is a language. It is a dialect of English. Go read some linguistics to learn the difference between 'slang' and a dialect. Ebonics is a dialect. It confirms to the rules defining what a language is -
- British linguistics dude

He goes on to say



Article here.


Link here.

These people are linguists, not politicians with an ideological axe to grind. I will defer to their conclusions on the subject.

Thanks for the links. I don't see anywhere where I've written that "ebonics" is "slang" though. My pronunciation of "the" as "da" is the linguistic equivalent of someone saying "ax" instead of "ask." In Chicago, we even end sentences with prepositions like ebonics (especially "at"). But it's not a language. I especially like Mr. Wolfram's translations and the idea of continuum, which is an idea I've bandied about previously.

My concern was those in charge of the Oakland / San Bernadino program and their understanding and linguistic expertise. Carrie Secret says that "Ebonics" is a language, NOT a dialect, so I guess you and she disagree. The Oakland school board made much noise about its patterns deriving from African languages, and saying that it was not Germanic. I have suspicious that people who believe these things may not be fond of actually running a classroom or teaching phonics or diagramming sentences, preferring the kids figure the world out for themselves and delivering us class after class consisting of a mèlange of bad speakers and non-spellers. When we really could use more doctors or engineers.

The source I usually use for language / country reference, here, falls on the side of "it's a dialect, but not a language."
No politics or axes intended with my posts. I think that kids should also learn real second languages, and maybe even dead ones like Latin or Greek. In English class, I think that they should learn English, whether using second-language modalities or not. It may come in handy some day. Like if they want a job with an evil multinational corporation whose business language is English ... or even to visit England.

Actually no. Let me ask you Quarkhead, how do you think that this anti-intellectual crap gets circulated within the African-American community? Through black culture. If the cultural leaders in the black community were to stop using Ebonics and start promoting intellectualism, maybe we wouldn't be having this conversation. Still, the cultural leaders won't change their tune for nothing, there needs to be an outcry for it, and that starts with average people.


Only if speaking English and promoting intellectualism is a "white quality", which certainly is not the case.

CP

First things first:

African American Vernacular English (AAVE), known colloquially as Ebonics, also called Black English, Black Vernacular or Black English Vernacular, is a dialect and ethnolect of American English. Similar in certain pronunciational respects to common southern U.S. English, the dialect is spoken by many African Americans in the United States. AAVE shares many characteristics with various pidgin and creole English dialects spoken by blacks worldwide. AAVE also has grammatical origins in, and pronunciational characteristics in common with, various West African languages.

AAVE is often erroneously perceived by members of mainstream American society to indicate inferior intelligence or low educational attainment. Furthermore, as with many other creole dialects, AAVE sometimes has been called "lazy" or "bad" English by those who do not understand the process of creolization. A similar perception exists with regard to SAE in Britain and other English-speaking nations. Such appraisals also may be due in part to AAVE's substitution of aspect for tense in some cases and certain grammatical and phonological reductions. Some challenge whether AAVE should be considered a dialect at all. However, among linguists there is no such controversy, since AAVE, like all dialects, shows consistent internal logic and structure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebonics

Now to the questions posed.

Do you think that Ebonics should be encouraged and taught in public schools? Why and why not?

1. If Ebonics is found by the educators, school board, parents and students of a school system to be a useful tool in aiding the children to learn then what is the harm in trying it? When conventional answers fail then start thinking outside the box and try the unconventional. It's pure folly to think all children start from the same point and learn everything the same way. You can't just open up their brains and pour the information in. The brains are physically the same but the way they process information may not be.

Do you think Ebonics is helpful or harmful to the African-American community as a whole?

2. Compared to what? Compared to the disproportionate numbers of African-Americans that suffer from alcohol, drugs, diabetes, prostate cancer, gun violence, or the Drug War? Ebonics is a means, not an end. When I'm hangin' with the homies playing a game of Madden 2005, plenty of smack will be run and somebody's mama might get dogged out. When I'm on my job I use the King's English and I speak using language, phrasings and dialect that are compatible in any workplace in Corporate America.

In other words, the way I speak around my peeps ain't the way I roll when I'm on my j-o-b. Black people are bilingual like that.

Do you believe that as a whole, the African-American community should attempt to curtail Ebonics as an attempt to assimilate?

No, I believe this is a ridiculous question. As I stated in another, now closed thread, the intention of intergration and the Civil Rights Era was not to "assimilate" into a faux state of "honorary Whiteness." Black Americans have not assimilated into the larger American culture as much as they have become another aspect of the larger American culture.

WE did not have to come to YOU and YOU did not have to come to US. We ALL met in the middle and the result is masala, a term used in Indian cooking word for a mixture of many spices.

Like Bill Cosby, I know that a kid walking into a job interview speaking in Ebonics is never going to get a gig at a Fortune 500 company. That's fine because not everyone wants to work at Wal-Mart anyway. But I know there's a time "to keep it real" and there's a time to speak, dress and conduct oneself in a way that does not alarm, confuse, anger or frighten that White Person across the desk who can decide whether or not to hire me.

Speaking Ebonics is nothing to be ashamed of or embarassed by. But like sex, religion and politics, it has its place. Knowing when and where that is can make the difference between a paycheck and no paycheck.

Oh Lord, here it comes!

I can watch the silly extrapolation play out already.

The minor decision of one school board in one little city will now certainly be taken as the pulse of black America.

Say goodbye to perspective and reason, we have a band-wagon!

Do you think that Ebonics should be encouraged and taught in public schools? Why and why not?
Ebonics, like the myriad regional dialects in our country is a perfectly natural occurence that very rarely encroaches on serious territory.

Very few African-Americans speak it at all (expect as an running joke) and almost none in a professional capacity.

Black people speak English just like everyone else. If you ask for directions from a random black person you should understand them just fine (even if they are probably wrong).

So really it doesn't matter if the "subject" is taught in school or not.

I see it as a waste of time, but then again so are a lot of courses.

Do you think Ebonics is helpful or harmful to the African-American community as a whole?
Neither, as it is not very commonly used in conversing with people who don't speak it, it is largely irrelevant.
Do you believe that as a whole, the African-American community should attempt to curtail Ebonics as an attempt to assimilate?
No more than New Englanders should get a handle on their pronunciation (or lack thereof) of "R" sounds or southerners drop their endless repertoire of contractions and just plain nonsense sounds.

In other words, since it is not a major bar to communication, no.

It's simply something easy to whine about. Seeing as the dialect will never go away (none of them ever do) it is the eternal whipping boy of those who really have no interest in understanding race relations in our country.

It's an easy and transparent trap to fall into...

The fact that Tucker is still mouthing about this after eight years speaks poorly for the man's vision.

Let's remember, again, that no one is teaching "ebonics!" What they are doing is approaching the teaching of English, using the modalities (thanks carlito) of EASEL. That is all they are doing.

The line between a dialect and a language is not a clear one, as a linguist will tell you. Some might classify dialects as separate languages. In Jamaica, when someone speaks the creole English, you can hardly understand them. The words are English, but the meanings and structure are different.

There is a much clearer difference between slang and dialect, or between accent and dialect.



Look, I know you are well meaning, but this doesn't make sense. Which cultural leaders? Strange-haired people who get a 2 second blather on network news? Al Sharpton in a preacher's drawl? What is it we want - an America where everyone speaks with the same uninflected monotone voice? Is that what 'assimilation' means? So, should the blacks in Jamaica learn to speak BBC English? Or should the British expats there start learning patois in school? Why can't we just not worry about it? I speak differently with my friends than I do with coworkers. I speak differently to my children than I do to a guy in my band.



I agree 100%. And as it turns out, no one is teaching AAVE as a second language. Don't worry, your kids in Oakland won't have to take "Ebonics 101" anytime soon. What they are doing is teaching English. And they are more successful because they recognize that to kids who speak primarily AAVE, if they use ESL techniques it is better. Because AAVE isn't 'bad English.' It is not 'wrong speaking.'

I should think we would all be lauding a program that finds a better way to teach kids to write and speak well.

So who is saying they are teaching Ebonics? A news reporter on a slow day? Some right-wing kook with an agenda to fill? It doesn't matter. What matters is that the truth is staring us in the face, and yet people continue to answer these debate questions as if they were teaching Ebonics to kids willy-nilly. BUT THEY ARE NOT!!!

I was talking with a client the other day who is a linguistics teacher at University of Alaska. He openly admitted that his chosen profession was not something that was going to change the world but was something he loved. I asked many questions, such as how language came to be defined from one culture and country to the next.
He explained to me that youth changes language ALL the time. It is with the young that language goes through constant evolution. He also talked about isolated groups of people talking to each other changes language, such as the bizarre relation between English being a Germanic language having evolved differently on the British Isles in comparison to home Germany, the two have little in common today, at least it is difficult if not impossible to understand each other, yet both come from the same source. I challenge an english speaker to go to Germany and try to order food from a menu where every word has about 15 letters. German is the basis of the English language. THAT tells you how much language has evolved over time.

Inject into Puerto Rican and Mexican Spanish, english terms like 'refrigerator' (nevera in spanish) apartamento, (piso) and all new terms regarding 'computers' (computadoras), micro-wave (micro-ondas), every language including Hawaiian is going through evolution of language to accept english terminology as we evolve.

Now, the black culture in America has come up with its own diversions based upon its root base. I find this unique and interesting. Firstly because it seems to come from an almost osmosis from the past, a past far removed from historical experience yet preserved somehow in genetic memory, perhaps picked up post-haste from Caribbean cultures or a new thing which uniquely defines that which linguists speak of, isolated groups talking only with each other and refining that particular method of speaking, perhaps also NOT to be understood by others, such as Creole. Caribbean Island Creole is a mix of French, English, Spanish and perhaps some African terms, noone can understand it easily, it has served to prevent 'others' from knowing much about the inner workings of the culture, which considering the circumstances would have been and is beneficial. I would suggest the same for African Americans in creating a side language, but hopefully NT will clue me in if I am totally off base.



The two are not mutually exclusive. Its ignorant to suggest such. It is far reaching to suggest that because a people use a particular language style they are anti-intellectual. Thats like saying all Southerners are stupid because they have a drawl and use other english teminologies and if they'd just stop talking that way and 'changed' somehow they would get a whole lot smarter. Its ridiculous. We all KNOW southerners are just dumb as doornails! Why dont they just stop being who they are and become someone else for their own good?
---------------------------------------------
I think that reaching children on their home ground at school cannot be a bad thing. It lets them know that they are not some outcasts in society, which in my thoughts almost every kid feels in some way. There is a lot of hopelessness out there. I dont believe in coddling children the way education and parents are doing today, protecting them from the real world, but meeting them on their own level and elevating it has got to be a better than just bulldozing them with Status quo.

The way I figure it these new things they are incorporating encourage thinking and someone is teaching it because they care, in contrast to the boring curriculums of the past where we memorized test questions and got really nothing out of it but historical dates.

Side:
Has anyone been watching Russell Simmons Hbo special DefPoetry Jams?
Its really been a thing of beauty and culture to behold. Long live the open mind and the open mike.

Well, when you think of modern African-American culture, who do you think of? Probably athletes and rappers...People who, if they ventured to speak English, might have an affect on the influential African-American kids.


God no! I looooove accents [especially my own], it's a badge of individuality, a beautiful thing. Ebonics is not an accent, it's just seriously butchered English, and to call it a language is disgraceful. It starts with an English sentence, cuts holes in it and screws up spelling...It's just bad English, this has nothign to do with monotone voices with the same accent, all I'm saying is SPEAK ENGLISH! I don't care how it sounds, if I were to read my post out loud to you Quark, I'm sure you'd have a chuckle over my at times, heavy New Jersey Accent. But I'd still be speaking English.

CP

Do you think that Ebonics should be encouraged and taught in public schools? Why and why not?
I won't claim to be informed enough (yet) as to whether or not this would be advantageous or not to teach or encourage in schools.

Do you think Ebonics is helpful or harmful to the African-American community as a whole?
Again, I don't pretend to be Lakoff or Chomsky, I only know what many of the perceptions are. The perceptions that I see in the military, and I assume they would be similar in a diverse civilian workplace are these; Blacks who speak what we would term as ebonics are viewed at first glance as less than intellectual, to say the least. Whether viewed as a product of ghetto culture, rap culture or just lazy speech, the perception is not positive. The same is true, maybe to a lesser extent of southern, native american and jersey-ite accents. Professional conduct and speech is regarded as essential for upward mobility in the military and civilian workplaces.
People shouldn't be judged at first glance by their appearance or speech, but by their actions. But they are, and will continue to be for some time, until we finally emerge from our neanderthal stage.
So, who's right and who's wrong? Are people who speak ebonics lazy or uneducated. Likely not. As long as they know when professional language is required and when slang is acceptable, it shouldn't even be an issue. The flip side that affects many blacks I know in the Army is this; when they speak 'proper' english, they get chided by their peers and subordinates as 'acting white'. So it's a lose-lose situation for them, and frankly causes just as much grief for them as worrying about racism from whites.

I don't have any answers, just observations.

I have to agree wholeheartedly. I have a completely different vocabulary (including lots of "ebonics") when I'm with my high-school friends, whom I still see regularly for 20 years running now. It's actually pretty funny to hear 37-year-old white guys saying things like "'supwichuholmes" and calling each other "bro." Some of us have even kept pace and have pizimp tizalk returning to the reportoire (funny how the 70's are even coming back in terms of language). I was talking to a Scottish guy about this and he had exactly the same observation. His wife refers to his "with my friends" voice as his "neddy" voice. Which would be the Glasgow equivalent of saying his "thuggish" voice. All around the world, the same song.


Again, I have to agree. While all of us, black or white, can argue that glorifying pimps and violence is detrimental to youth, to blame it on language is missing the point. Not to pick on Southerners, but if dialects were mutually exclusive from intellectualism, we'd have to disavow Mark Twain and William Faulkner.

Amen Nighttimer. That's perfectly fine and normal, but there is a huge difference between using slang/dialect with friends/family and teaching it in schools. Surely you're with me on that point. I'll be the first to admit that I don't exactly speak Webster's English when I'm around friends, between the accent and some...fiery language, I'm not the posterboy for National English Teacher's Guild, but with that being said, they don't teach my style of English in schools.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for dialects and slang, I love them both...But there's a time and a place for both, and I don't think school is a place for teaching slang or Ebonics.

CP

CP, since your post starts a new page, I would like to reassert what has been stated several times on this thread.

Based on the interpretations of this material from several members including quark and nt, Ebonics is not being taught in schools

It is being used to teach English to students as a second language. My understanding of this is that English is being taught with an understanding of alternate non-traditional usage of the language, so that students better understand standard English.

My major concern is what I saw in California in the failings of ESL programs that seemed content to allow ESLers to get by on nominal results and pass along without a very strong education.

If someone sees one of these districts teaching Ebonics in place of a foreign language like Spanish or German or French please add that to this debate.

I will also defer to linguists in considering Ebonics a legitimate dialect of English.

Okay- let us debate this on the facts as they are now presented:

1) Ebonincs is not being TAUGHT in school, rather, the teachers are MODIFYING thier teaching style in order to TEACH PROPER ENGLISH

Does anyone see anything wrong with this? My grandmother taught ESL to mexicans since the 1930s- she spoke perfect spanish, in every dialect there could just about possibly be (she spoke seven languages without accent, thanks to her dad being a soldier) - and she used her Mexican language to teach english-

Okay, is there something wrong with this?

2) Most linguists, far removed from the political realm, consider this a dialect

That being said- what is the issue here?

Oh, ConservPat, I think you're using Ebonics and that nerdy Tucker Carlson as a straw-man for what really is bugging you and it's not Ebonics.

Quarkhead, Artemise, Cruising Ram and others have made it clear as glass that the issue isn't that children all across America are being brainwashed into speaking fluent "ghettoese." The issue to paraphrase Dubya is, "Is our children learning?" Too many black kids are not and one school district implemented a novel, but somewhat controversial, plan to reach these kids. Now, I haven't done the research to determine whether or not it has made a difference in the performance of schools in Oakland, but what matters the most is does the policy WORK?

I don't know who YOU think of when you think of African-American culture, but I can assure you it extends far beyond "athletes and rappers." Maybe if you only watch MTV, ESPN and Entertainment Tonight, that's all you see, but the culture of Black Americans is infinitely richer and diverse than some kid with a mic in one hand and a basketball in the other.

The other night on Charlie Rose he was interviewing author and essayist Stanley Crouch. Stanley loves the jazz of Wynton Marsalis and hates hip-hop music. You can turn on NPR and hear "News and Notes with Ed Gordon," a veteran journalist who has appeared on 60 Minutes and hosted Black Entertainment Television's Nightly News. Gordon interviews politicians, physicians, artists, businessmen, actors, entrepreneurs and journalists---all Black and all articulate, professional and accomplished.

In my city I deal with a Black mayor, a Black school board president, a Black school superintendent, Black city council members, Black attorneys, Black judges, Black journalists, Black clergy and Black professionals in all walks of life. AND Black athletes and rappers who are intelligent, articulate and "a credit to their race."

You have to venture beyond the narrow parameters of the mainstream media to find them, ConservPat, but trust me African-American culture is well-represented and it extends far beyond the lowest common denominator and that LCD is 50 Cent, The Game, Ron Artest, Mike Tyson and Bobby Brown. They no more represent the majority of Black people than Paris Hilton or the guys on "American Chopper" represent the majority of White people.

So why the drama?

Then what is it? I"m curious, what's bugging...er...me?

Nor have I made that accusation.


To me, rappers and athletes are not the cultural leaders of the African-American community, but you'd have a hard time convincing me that the average black child doesn't see them as cultural leaders in the black community. I understand that there are much more intelligent and overal great people who lead the Black cultural community, unfortunately, I'd be willing to bet that a great deal of black children do not. I'm not saying it's their fault [I for one, blame the media], but it does seem to be true.


This gives me the impression that you think that I don't believe that there are intelligent, cultured black people around. I know all about that, I'm debating one right now. But seriously, this kinda seems as though you think I'm not aware that 50 Cent is not the face of black people...I know that...but again, I'd be willing to bet that he is a role model for far to many young black boys.


I don't have to venture beyond those parameters, as I am not enclosed in them...I know that 50 Cent, The Game, Artest, Tyson and Brown don't represent the black community. However, their influence [with the exception of brown and Tyson] is expanding in that community, and that's all that needs to happen for them to become icons within the minds of young black people.


My concern is very similar to Eeyore's. To quote said Donkey, here:



In addition, San Bernadino [who the debate was originally supposed to be about, I goofed by talking about Oakland, San Bernadino was the topic on Carlson's show] admitted that this was pretty much a way of boosting a students GPA...I don't think that that helps them in the long run.

CP

Okay I have been reading this debate for a bit and not going in before, but will now do so.

First off, I will agree that the schools are not teaching Ebonics, but teaching in Ebonics. I think that this is a huge mistake. The school system in California has been making the same kind of mistake with the Hispanic communities, Vietnamese, etc. At each and every turn this has proven to be a total failure.

Teaching the kids in any other language besides English is placing them in a deficit when it comes to learning. I know this from first hand experience. When my family moved to the MiddleEast I had instructors to teach me the local language. Did they speak English, heck no!!! But I learned their language very rapidly. When we are 'helping' ESL students it should never be in their native language it retards their progress in developing proper fluent English.

I have also be on the receiving end of 'Ebonics' from supposed educated people. I do not want to ever be 'axed' something ever again. Am I a piece of wood? It may be alright in the home, but that home life seems to make it into the work force all too frequently.

{editted for clarity}

loreng59 and NT- this is a very valid and not uncommon practice when teaching ESL and creating "proper" english patterns to folks that don't have "proper" english speaking patterns.

My Grandmother was an English proffesor AND taught immigrants and in foriegn countries (her husband, my grand dad was military as well) the english language- she would speak in thier native tongue first, then teach them very, very proper "queen's english" , using thier native tongue as a common reference point.

She also taught college level southeners how to "lesson" thier drawl so they sounded more "genteel"- "back in the day" LOL

I can speak and imitate almost every single english dialect and accent to date- due to my own military family life and attempting to drive my grandmother to distraction, all in fun of course (hard to even type about her with out a tear in my eye, she was articulate, educated, and had a sense of humour a mile long, would be spanking me for my mischief while trying so hard not to laugh) - but she was SOOO strict with our language around the house- and, once, when I was a snippy teenager, about 13, and knew just enough to be dangerous, I got into this argument about the English language- and how it does not have any set rules that everyone lives by, is a evolving language that has no commitee (like french) to determine what is and isn't English, that a great deal of our words are borrowed from other languages, so what was the point?

She pointed to Barbara Jordon every time-

"Barbara Jordan was born in the Fifth Ward of Houston, Texas to a Black Baptist minister, Benjamin Jordan, and a domestic worker, Arlyne Jordan. She attended Roberson Elementary and Phyllis Wheatley High School.
While at Wheatley, she was a member of the Honor Society and excelled in debating. She graduated in 1952 in the upper five percent of her class. She wanted to study political science at the University of Texas-Austin, but was discouraged because the school was still segregated.

She attended Texas Southern University and pledged Delta Sigma Theta Sorority. Barbara was a national champion debater, defeating her opponents from such schools as Yale and Brown and tying Harvard University.

In 1956, she graduated magna cum laude from Texas Southern with a double major in political science and history. She expressed an interest in attending Harvard University School of Law, but opted to go to Boston University and graduated in 1959."

Whom she met and had frequent breakfasts with "back in the day" - and how they would not tolerate bad speech in thier company- regardless of background.

She would tell me "she is a well spoken lady of towering intellect that came from disadvantage to rise to our greatest hieghts- and you, a white boy of privilege and breeding, should do at least as well with the opportunity God has given you- I will tolerate no ignorance in MY family" - and saying this a twinkle in her eye.

then my Grandfather, in an over played Texas drawl, would say "boy, now you done did it- you grabbed that tiger by the tail"

And would get a beating from Grandmother himself LOL

The teaching principle is sound- speak in the language of the student to make a common entry point into higher learning- it is as old as teaching itself

no controversy here except what some make of it.

There is a language for success- and it is good it is being taught to those that do not have exposure to it from birth.

From what I read in the links given, and in the thread so far, I'm not even sure you should agree to that much. The way I read it, they are neither teaching Ebonics, nor teaching English in Ebonics, they are teaching English as if it were a foreign language to the students. Instead of using traditional English teaching methods, they are casting away all the assumptions of how well the kids can speak English when they come to class and treating them as if they don't know anything. The TEFL system is the way most non-native speakers learn English (in Anglophone countries, at least).


Exactly right - you have described the TEFL system to a tee, which is exactly what I understood from the linked articles (though since English is a language notoriously open to multiple interpretations, I may be wrong). I know several TEFL teachers who work teaching foreign students here in the UK and have worked teaching natives English while abroad. In almost all of the TEFL lessons here in the UK, they teach more than one nationality at a time, and they do not have to be able to speak the language of the student to be able to teach them functional English very quickly.

(My emphasis)
You may want to edit that bit...

Do you think that Ebonics should be encouraged and taught in public schools? Why and why not?No, I don't, except maybe as a specialism to be studied once students are competent in the basics (the three R's, for want of a better term). However, neither should it be treated as though it does not exist - which this new Californian program seems to accept. And it should not be discouraged. From what I know about language, the best way to encourage people to use minority forms is to formally discourage them from doing so. (Look what happens when you tell kids not to swear.)

Do you think Ebonics is helpful or harmful to the African-American community as a whole?
I don't think it is either, and I do not honestly believe that there are more than a handful of Afro-Americans who genuinely cannot speak or understand Standard English. There may be a few more who do, but refuse to on some kind of principle, but that's not the same thing at all.

Do you believe that as a whole, the African-American community should attempt to curtail Ebonics as an attempt to assimilate?
No, any more than any other regional or social group. Everyone's mentioned regional accents as a comparator, but what about white slacker" culture that uses it's own terminology and, sometimes, grammar? Nobody cares whether or not they'll one day "assimilate" and get a hair cut and a job, and stop wearing black baggy skate clothes all day. (Except possibly their parents. Or sometimes, their kids.)
It's an old phenomenon, but minority groups throughout history, no matter what their colour, but especially if they are (rightly or wrongly) subject to disproportionate authority attention, adopt forms of speech that exclude people from outside their group. (Cockney rhyming slang came about for this reason.)

Maybe saying that Afro-Americans will find it easier to assimilate once they ditch Ebonics is getting things the wrong way around. Maybe, when "mainstream society" makes itself completely permeable to all minorities, Afro-Americans will no longer need to speak Ebonics?

Do you think that Ebonics should be encouraged and taught in public schools? Why and why not?

No. The problem is that Ebonics isn't a language per se, because it shares most of its vocabulary with American English, and most English speakers could carry on a conversation with someone speaking in Ebonics. It would make about as much sense for schools to teach east-coast slang in class. "Ahright, class, repeat after me: tonic, soda; wicked, extremely; frappe, milkshake."

Do you believe that as a whole, the African-American community should attempt to curtail Ebonics as an attempt to assimilate?

Yes and no. As I said before, American English has many dialects, but only standard American English is used in formal speech. I fail to see why Ebonics should be different. The only possible reason is to prevent the "evils of assimilation." The flaw is that a culture that rejects the mainstream is separate from the mainstream, and as long as the mainstream controls the country, this is nothing more or less than a ghetto. It is not, however, necessary to remove Ebonics from the vernacular, any more than it is necessary to remove any other dialect from the vernacular.

Thank goodness some have pointed out that Ebonics isnt actually being taught in schools, which was the first thing I was going to point out, and then I read the rest of thread. The thread title is incredibly misleading, along with the questions for debate, because it seems to say that Ebonics is being taught as a second language. Clearly it is not.

I don't understand what everyone's deal is. We're teaching kids English, not Ebonics. So why is this thread even here in the first place?

Do you think that Ebonics should be encouraged and taught in public schools? Why and why not?

I think it should be taught in public universities for people who are interested in it linguistically. But other than that, no. Whats interesting, is that the opening post lists an excerpt that says NOTHING about Ebonics being taught in schools. So Im confused as to why this question is being asked. Should we teach it, even though it's not being taught right now?

Do you believe that as a whole, the African-American community should attempt to curtail Ebonics as an attempt to assimilate?

Absolutely not. Dialects are cool and interesting, and why should we try to suppress them? Should we stop allowing Canadians, Brits or Austrialians into our country because they all speak a diffrerent dialect too? Or Jamaicans?

Do you think Ebonics is helpful or harmful to the African-American community as a whole?

Are languages harmful to people? Or communities? I didnt think they were, but maybe Im wrong. I thought they were neutral, something people did to communicate.

I really think that we should get rid of the word dialect; it's really confusing. Ive had numerous debates about what makes a language a dialect (or vice versa), and it really seems more socio-political than anything else. When there was Yugoslavia, there was one language called Serb-Croate, but since the country has split, Serbs, Croatians, and Bosnians each have their own seperate language, even though they can all communicate with each other. Also similar with Scandinavian languages, where they can all communicate with each other, but supposedly the languages are different. Or in China there are tons of different dialects, but not all of them ressemble Mandarin, therefore those who only speak a dialect, wont understand a Mandarin. Hmm....

Do you think that Ebonics should be encouraged and taught in public schools? Why and why not?

As many have pointed out..it is not, and should not be taught in schools. Should it be encouraged? Yes, inasmuch as teachers and students need to realize they are dealing with two different dialects. Depending on the community I'm sure some linguists would be able to show how "ebonics" is actually a creole. (a composite of two different languages)

Do you believe that as a whole, the African-American community should attempt to curtail Ebonics as an attempt to assimilate?

Talk about begging the question!!!
Believe it or not "ebonics" does actually have different structures that make it seperate from English in style and diction. Ebonics, I believ (going from memory) relies more on stresses than it does on word order for meaning. This is NOT a function of slang but one of language as it reflects culture.

I had a high school student last year who was a transfer student from the inner city (she was bussed into the suburbs). She was quite capable of eloquent English AND ebonics and spoke often of the necessity to switch from one to the other depending on her audience and location.

Do you think Ebonics is helpful or harmful to the African-American community as a whole?

More begging the question....
"Ebonics" is neither. It simply IS. It is culture.

The problems arise when we see children from minority populations entering the mainstream school systems across the country. Children who speak another language OR a seperate dialect often start off at a great deficit not because of the language but because of their environment. In a healthy environment with educated parents a child could speak "ebonics" at home and transition seamlessly into standard English in school. (and millions of minority children from all groups do this quietly every day)

Unfortunately, when the parents provide no environment for the child (discussions, books, travel, life experience, etc..) the child shows up to school as a blank slate, if not regressed. They are often 4 years behind in kindergarten!!

Some school systems have found that, by addressing the limited language base the children have first, they can make a smoother transition into proper English (and other languages) The goal is to develop the child's spech/language skills that have been dormant for the first years at home. Approaching the native language (whatever it may be) is the best hope for such a child.

As an example, I now teach English to a struggling, Latin American population in a struggling city school system (and in one of the lowest scoring schools). My kids come to school not only struggling in English, but most don't know how to write in Spanish either. They struggle with the Spanish words to describe the things in the room as often as they struggle with the English. When a child is brought into the world in such a language-deprived environment one does what one can.
Our school adopted a "dual language" program which has worked wonders for the kids involved. Yes, they learn part-time in Spanish. But their understanding of their native language has increased their understanding of English grammatical structure sugnificantly. Many of the kids in that group now score on par with the kids in the surrounding suburbs on the state tests. Like it or not (and I used to hate it) such approaches work.