Sifting through our race debates a common thread (heh) occurs to me.

Many of our closed debates were rooted in concepts which seems to me that that substantial proportions of
white Americans and I are living on entirely different planets.

There have been the accusations:

Blacks are trying to have ebonics established as America's second language.

Blacks see success as "selling out".

Blacks to everything possible to separate themselves form "mainstream America".

That "African-American" is an artificial construct apparently invented to insult and/or annoy white Americans.

Blacks place a low priority on education.

I could go on (some people did) but the point is clear. This list of perceived grievances is a common factor is every failed debate we have on race.

Now stripped of the cloaking phraseology that often surrounds them you could see where some African-americans may take offense at these and other complaints.

They suggest that blacks are somehow fundamentally different form whites in their behavior and that for the worse. <--- (understatement)

Now as a black male growing up in a black family which inhabits mostly black communities and generally being exposed to a lot of black people....

I cannot for the life of me see where people tend to get these ideas.

This coupled with the fact that despite the end of legal segregation in seems to me that it is still entirely possible for most white Americans to go an entire weeks without having so much as a verbal exchange with a black person has lead me to a conclusion.

Let's see where it leads you.

Like all good race debate questions these will be a little fuzzy...

Are a substantial proportion of white Americans out of touch with their black counterparts?

Has this lead to a distorted view of the black community as a whole?

When was the last time you sat down for a meal with a family/person not of your racial background?

Is personal contact with persons of another race important to forming an accurate impression of the state of race relations in this country?

turnea

Aren't your questions just as biased as you seem to be implying white people are?

Are a substantial proportion of white Americans out of touch with their black counterparts?

Are a substantial proportion of black Americans out of touch with their white counterparts?


Has this lead to a distorted view of the black community as a whole?

Has this lead to a distorted view of the white community as a whole?


Is personal contact with persons of another race important to forming an accurate impression of the state of race relations in this country?

Always, but this is equally so for both sides of the divide.

Are a substantial proportion of white Americans out of touch with their black counterparts?

Yes, completely.

Has this lead to a distorted view of the black community as a whole?

Without a doubt.

When was the last time you sat down for a meal with a family/person not of your racial background?

Last night? After my nieghbor finished helping me put together my childrens playground. Great guy. Vietnam vet. Retired from a local Hardware supplier, then went to work for the VA, near retirement there. Raised two children. From Goergia- the usual poor black kids story there (his words) both his kids finished college, one is a primary school principle, the other is still trying to "find himself" or some such, nice guy, he was over last night too- helping teach my little girl to dribble the basketball better. He had both a basketball and academic scholarship. I am hoping for the same for my little girl LOL . The sad part is, he makes more money as a construction worker right now than he can with his Bachelors of Science degree, starting salary up here right now for a journeyman carpenter is 80k a year.

Is personal contact with persons of another race important to forming an accurate impression of the state of race relations in this country?

Absolutely- my grandfather said it best "Familiarity does not breed contempt- it breeds familiarity"

Ahh...

"Out of touch" is not the same as "Our of mind" as it were.

I knew they'd be a bit edgy but let me clarify that I don't believe most white Americans share the misunderstanding I listed.

I meant precisely what I said.

This is a debate tailored specifically for the AD community. That means that such a statement as I've made, rather than relying on skewed perception can be fact-check with ease.

Call a failed debate I'll pull up the post where things started to go downhill and its likely to include something on that list.

The wording of the questions themselves I don't see to be biased though they are focused of the perception of white Americans.

It mainly a question of numbers, there are a lot more white-Americans than non-white.


I could mirror the questions for the black community (and for each racial community in America, long list) but it would add clutter to the debate as I see it.


Going for the essentials here...

I see.


I had to think about this question a bit...

When was the last time you sat down for a meal with a family/person not of your racial background?

...because I'm not altogether certain as to what constitutes 'race'. Obviously, in the context of your post, the term black is a 'race', and I suppose you'd include Asians and Hispanics as well?

I personally have very little contact with any body who belongs to those 'racial' groups. The closest I have come to 'personal contact' with any one similar would be people of a different ethnic background, for example Turks and Arabs. Do these constitute 'race'.

I don't like this term at all. It implies we are somehow unrelated.

The last time I sat down to eat with any one who was not a light skinned northern European was last year at work when I sat at table with an Arabian girl (nationality unknown)

There were other Arabian types at work, but these never ate with us, even when invited. As such my experiences are extremelly limited. I have not shared a meal with a black person since 1998.

Turnea, I have a question for you, perhaps only slightly related, but how do you regard non American white people?
Are they in any way different from American white people? How much of your perception refers to white Americans as Americans or as white people?

That's what I meant in the opening post about the question being a little "fuzzy." Debates in America have always centered about the concept of race, which is itself a concept with far less anthropological backing than in the past.

Therefore it is a term which I fear has more meaning in the Americas and other places where black Africans and Caucasians have come into major conflict than in other areas of the world.

For those outside such areas the closest we could get I suppose in contact with the ethnic group which seems to be most mistrusted in your country.

That may well be Arabs in Denmark.


A great question.

Sadly I've never had the opportunity to leave America, the funds to visit another country really aren't there at this point so I can't be sure at all.

I do think that whites in other country may share some things in common which goes along with being the economically dominant race in the world, but I can't be too sure on what that might mean.

Are a substantial proportion of white Americans out of touch with their black counterparts?

No I don't. I think that the current PUBLIC culture of Blacks makes most Whites not want to associate with them. I think that black people are as out of sync with their own as White people are. I think a lot of Black peoples actions segregate the two cultures, not that White people are innocent here, but the majority of White people aren't racists and would like to befriend Blacks.. I know that sounds lame, but who wants that tension? Who wants their children to have to deal with that.

Has this lead to a distorted view of the black community as a whole?

No. I think the distorted view is from the media and the Black counter culture.

When was the last time you sat down for a meal with a family/person not of your racial background? Well I work with a black guy and we eat lunch every so often, but as for other races I eat with another race just about every night. My wife is from Laos which is over by Thailand and Vietnam.

Is personal contact with persons of another race important to forming an accurate impression of the state of race relations in this country?

Yes and no.

I think your questions seems to put the problems on the feet of White people. Instead of on both Black and White people. These types of actions lead white people to think that Black people blame us for their problems. I mean slavery was a horrible thing, but a lot of us feel like the loudest part of the Black community can't let it go. I mean shoot, I don't know a race of people who wasn't enslaved at one point or another. And I HATE to even bring it up, but that's where I believe a lot of the hostility still lies or lays or something to that effect.

1. Yes, in terms of adults and kids improperly raised by these adults.

2. Yes, among these people.

3. Hmmm... I played poker with someone from Korea last week.

4. I'd suppose. I'll explain. I'm 15, and approximately 5-10 African-Americans are in my grade. I don't talk with the girls all that much, however, the boys that I talk to are, I suppose, what create the negative image. At least, they are the roots of this (i.e. they may become something that misrepresents their race). One that I talk to often during the school year smokes marijuana and doesn't have a problem with being defiant. Other misconceptions come from hearing about a murder, and it is an African-American who was high on something. They hear about the Crips and the Bloods and hear about the violence and the drugs and that leads to the misconceptions. I have no idea what percent of the African-American population does any of this. My impression of African-Americans is good. I see those people that I mentioned before and think, "Ok, he/she makes bad decisions." Then I see African-American geniuses and that subsumes any negative image. I was just at debate camp where there was an African-American coach. He went to Yale, got his Ph. D there (I think he got it there, I know he had a Ph. D). Fabulous speaker, nice person. There are sports geniuses, like Michael Jordan, Tracy McGrady, Emmit Smith, Freddy Adu, etc. There are music geniuses like Barry White. (I would personally say 50 Cent is also, but I don't know when people will consider his songs "music.") So, I don't know. I think that caucasians need to have more contact like these geniuses.

Are a substantial proportion of white Americans out of touch with their black counterparts?
Not especially, but it's a bit hard to try and define what constitutes being 'in touch' with any other Americans. In my view, in America, with the gamut of media, pop culture and information, I think most people are as in touch with other races as they wish to be. Call me pollyanna, but I believe that most people do judge other races on an individual basis with personal contact. Many stereotypes from pop culture are knocked down by personal interactions. People of all races will self segregate for a variety of reasons, black and white. The white Americans who close their minds to others because of culture or skin color are just as disingenuous and obnoxious as those who proclaim at every opportunity, 'look at me, I have black friends!'

Has this lead to a distorted view of the black community as a whole?
Somebody would have to know the complete and unvarnished truth to answer this question. Again, probably no more distorted than how blacks view whites.

When was the last time you sat down for a meal with a family/person not of your racial background?
I maybe have it easier than many to socialize with people of all races, being in in the military. My boss is black, but as he's only one pay grade above mine, we go out to lunch and socialize on a regular basis.

Is personal contact with persons of another race important to forming an accurate impression of the state of race relations in this country?
It's important to continually learn from one another, of people of all races. It should be encouraged, but not forced. Many examples of self segregation are misinterpreted as bigoted, unfortunately. And this leads to ill feelings and sets back race relations. Also unfortunately, race is a business in America. It's big money, self perpetuating and with no end in sight. The ONLY way to dismantle this industry is for people to interact, learn from each other and make the need for advocacy and litigation obsolete.

I'm not sure I'm qualified to answer that. Here where I live in Jersey, it's considered a very "gated" [READ: lilly white] community, so if you were to ask me if the white people I'm around are out of touch, then yeah, probably. But I have no idea how the "substantial proportion" of white Americans feel about black people and I'm not going to guess.


I'll answer that question with a question, what is the correct view of the black community?


Last night.


Kinda, sorta. It's important to have personal contact with people of a different race, but that one person really can't make you "in touch" with the whole race.

CP

Are a substantial proportion of white Americans out of touch with their black counterparts?

Given that this debate is supposed to be specifically tailored to members (as you've discussed with moif already), I'm a bit confused with the question. Do you want me to answer with to regard to white Americans who actively debate on ? Or do you want me to answer with regard to how members might perceive white Americans' view of their black counterparts? Or should I just answer the question naively, that is, how I perceive white America's relationship to black America?

If the latter, then I would say that, while there doesn't appear to be a popular divide between white and black America, there does appear to be a community divide. Simply put, white and black America do not mix socially in proportion to the population. Because of this, one must conclude that by definition white America must be out of touch with black America -- one cannot be "in touch" when one is socially "out of touch". Of course, the same is true for black America's relationship with white America. However, because black America is a minority relative to white America, it would be incorrect to conclude that black America is just as "out of touch" as white America. This is because the probability of socializing with the majority (independent of other factors) is greater than the reverse.

Has this lead to a distorted view of the black community as a whole?

Based on what I've read in debates here on this site, I would conclude, sadly, yes. However, it's hard to extrapolate this to American society as a whole.

When was the last time you sat down for a meal with a family/person not of your racial background?

Night before last.

Is personal contact with persons of another race important to forming an accurate impression of the state of race relations in this country?

Absolutely yes. Without social interaction, it is easy to demonize. Of course, this attitude seems to pervade American society all over the place. Just look at the "conservative" demonization of "liberals" and the "liberal" demonization of "conservatives".

The whole question is somewhat disingenuous. White people as a group bear no special need to be in touch with Black people as a group. The whole point of civil liberties of the civil rights movement was to break down the need to communicate solely on the basis of one group to another, but rather as individuals who are free to associate as they please according to their own individual interests and needs. The need for a separate Black community is the one remaining dinosaur of the evil days of slavery in this nation and only Blacks can break down the barriers surrounding it because those barriers are largely self-imposed. Your question on its face is evidence that for you those barriers still exist and that you want White people to be responsible for their existence. Yet there is no benefit for White Americans in maintaining any barriers between themselves and the rest of America. The beneficiaries of such remaining barriers are in fact those people who are now responsible for them, namely political organizations which benefit from keeping minorities separated from full and complete assimilation into American life.

As a public school teacher, I see in the current generation of young people a complete lack of concern over racial barriers. As late as 20 years ago, when I was new to teaching, some white students still perceived the illusion that their lives would be improved by maintaining social barriers between themselves and other races and cultures. We have come a long way in the 50 years that I have been alive. I clearly remember divided bus stations here in California as late as 1965; although the signs had long since come down, the social barriers had not. Now 40 years later, the remaining barriers mostly exist in Black communities that do not wish to give up the uniqueness of their identity.

However, Black America still hides its heart from White America as if slavers still existed to force alien values upon them along with forced labor and inhumane treatment. The cultural protectionism that kept many African traditions alive for more than 300 years now threatens to keep young African Americans captive to a self-imposed form of Apartheid. Black community leaders need to learn to let go of their youth and thereby to keep them at the same time.

White culture is already permeated with all the many artistic contributions of African culture but what is missing is an opening of the African American heart into the soul of America. The few remaining white bigots must be pushed aside to join their Islamic Extremist counterparts on the junk heap of bad and misbegotten human endeavors. Complete assimilation by Black America into the fabric of America is the only answer and that answer is already underway in the form of Condolezza Rice, Janice Rogers Brown, Colin Powell and other African Americans who no longer accept a monolithic interface between white and black America. When African Americans are proportionately represented in all views and all ways of life in America, the healing will be complete.

Conservative Republican African Americans in positions of leadership are a strong indicator that we are well on our way to a fully diversified society. So my question is this, Is Black America out of touch with its own progress toward the vision and goals of the pioneers of Civil Rights?

The question was, "Are a substantial proportion of white Americans out of touch with their black counterparts?" I see nothing there to indicate that Turnea was trying to say that white people bear a special need to be in touch with black people as a group. He asked a question about a cultural barrier - in this case, race.



I disagree. I think that not only was there not one "whole point" to something as complex and layered as what the Civil Rights movement wanted to accomplish, but one of the most important points was not "communicating across racial lines" so much as "being treated no differently than anyone else because of our race." And in any case, the "need for a separate black community" is most certainly not the one remaining effect of slavery. But I do agree, lack of reaching out to whites is largely self-imposed, and do you want to know why? Because according to you, in order to be accepted by you, we'd have to act, talk, think, look, and dress exactly like you. If having a seat at your lunch table means we would no longer be able to be ourselves and like whatever music we like, dress in whatever fashions we like, and talk about whatever topics most interest us, then I have no idea why we would want to do such a thing in the first place.



No, but nice try at playing the victim. It was a yes or no question. You are reading all sorts of things into it that quite simply are not there. And you know what? Curiously, you have yet to address the question, because you keep getting offended by it.



I'm going to ask you straight out what your idea of assimilation is. How would your ideal negro act?



You're joking me. Having a unique culture is a bad thing to you? What the hell? Of course our culture is different from yours, we have completely different history and completely different experiences in America!



No, we still hide our heart from white America because you don't like us as we are. You've made it abundantly clear that you'd only like and accept black people if they act like you and stop acting like who they are - black. Let me put this into a hypothetical conversation between two teenagers, let's call them Chloe and Wanda:

Chloe: I don't like you. I'd like you a hell of a lot better if you'd stop acting like yourself and start acting like me. That's the only way I'd ever start liking you.

Wanda: Okay, so you'll only like me if I change who I am and what I believe to conform with you?

Chloe: Yes, that's correct.

Wanda: Well why would I want to do that?

Chloe: Look, see! You're being standoffish! You're hiding your heart from me! I don't understand why you won't reach out to me and talk to me like anyone else!



And you still have problems understanding why we don't trust you and are not reaching out to you?



Who are the black community leaders? Preachers who develop multi-million dollar churches in the projects? Any old fool obnoxious enough to go on TV and assume to tell us how we should act and how we should think and what we should believe? I'm genuinely curious, list these "black community leaders."



Waiiiiit a minute. Wait a freakin minute. Do you or do you not want us to assimilate? If we assimilate and act, talk, and think like you, there will no longer be any "African American heart." You have already stated loud and clear that the problem with blacks is that we have our own unique culture. And now you say that if we came to the table with our unique identity, that'd be a good thing?

Well which is it?



Sigh. Please see this thread.



Okay, so your idea of "diversity" "assimilation" and above all, "successful breaking down of racial barriers" is when there are more conservative black people? Is that how you're measuring the progress? Is that really what your idea of assimilation is?

I really don't see why you insist on making this a black American/white American problem. What ever happened to just being AMERICAN? I think the problem lies in identifying yourself by the color of your skin or national origin in the first place.

I just don't see a lot of 'white Americans' walking around identifying themselves as such, do you? We don't see the White Entertainment Television network, we don't see White Student Unions, etc. So why do blacks feel the need to identify themselves that way?



No, I think the existence of the black community, or hispanic community, or gay community, or fill-in-the-black community has caused the distorted view. Instead of having an insular, separatist community, why not just join the rest of the people and be a part of the existing order?



Um... Sunday? Actually, twice last week, spent time with a bunch of friends all last weekend... all the time really.



Of course. Then again, my daughters have friends who are black, hispanic and asian. Heck, my youngest daughter's best friend is black. You don't see them being 'communities', you see them being kids! I think that's something that gets lost as people get older, the fact that we're all human and we're all Americans and maybe we should all try to stop being so fragmented into little socio-ethnic groups and try just being TOGETHER.

Naivete works.

When I said a debate tailored to I meant it's not the type of question I would ask to the random person on the street.

I think with our spotty history of race debates and the unique ability to literally recall any discussion we stand a better chance of answering the admittedly tough questions with some kind of accuracy..or...something...


That is precisely what I was getting at. Are we living beside each other rather than with each other?


Agreed, but aren't these two statements somewhat contradictory? I don't think it's possible to be in touch with a community simply by watching what are designed to be attention getting antics in pop culture.


First I think historical context is needed. the advent of whites not identifying themselves openly as such is a very new development. Throughout this country's history whites have been the group most open in proclaiming America as "the white man's country."

Second, it is perfectly natural for every minority to distinguish itself and they all do. Recognizing differences between ourselves is not harmful it's just noticing the obvious.


Again this simply ignores history. Black have always been a part of the existing order in some form or another in this country. There are the last people you'd have to remind to "be American".

Identification as a community is not innately insular. No more than Italian-Americans are for identifying as Italians.

Blacks are simply one of the largest of these groups and therefore have a bigger footprint.

A color-blind society is a silly Orwellian pipe dream. Why deny what is readily visible? the point is not to deny that different communities to exist, but accept it...

I was fishing for reason as to why race debates are so divisive and I think the lack of exposure may be the biggest issue.

It is clear that many Americans have a laundry list of misconceptions about the black community. What besides a lack of exposure could explain that?

If this is indeed true, then how do you explain the ending of slavery and the civil war?

The conscious of the nation's white ruling class (which it is safe to say what they were at the time is question) developed, albeit slowly.

There were many reasons for the abolition movement some moral, some economic (slaves being the ultimate in "cheap labor") but it became untenable to Northern Americans to have a racially based slave system going on in their names.

Even then the concept of the white man's country was not dead. Reconstruction after the war shows this clearly when radical abolitionists forced through political reforms giving blacks equal rights they were later abandoned to the KKK and other movements by a noncommittal federal government eager to gain favor with the masses who felt sharing power with blacks was an insult.

Blacks were not to gain legal equality and adequate protection until the 1960's.

The Civil War ended the worst abuses but blacks were still considered less than citizens until quite recently.

turnea

Okay, I accept all that, but I still don't see how you can say that whites have been the group most open in proclaiming America as "the white man's country without being more specific as to which whites.

After all, its equally so that the whites in America have probably done more for equality than any other group...

Yes?

No?



I note also that you say:

...and it occurs to me that perhaps the reason why there is still so much division here is perhaps just as much due to a lack of compromise from the 'black community'.

Why?

It seems to me, from reading your posts, as well as those of Nighttimer and to some degree Suzy Steamboat that you all quite happy with your 'black'/Afro American culture and do not see any real problem with it.

Yet at the same time, you all seem very dismissive of the notion that to be an American is to be like the White people expect you to be. But at the same time, the white people are those who make up the majority of Americans, both now and through out history. They are, and always have been the prime motive force of American culture and the evolution of the state. America is literally a European style nation. More advanced, more ethnically mixed now, but essentially still a Eurocentric nation.

So just what is it you want from White America? Obviously you don't wish to be like the White Americans, you want something else, but what?

And, why should the white Americans include you into their main stream culture if you won't adapt to it?

This reminds me of the debate we have here in Europe with the Muslims where we Europeans are damned if we do and damned if we don't. We can't win. No matter how accomidating we become, the accusatons never cease, in fact, the more we listen the louder the accusations become.

In the mean time we face an ever growing and threatening Muslim community in the European heartlands that shows no sign of wanting to intergrate into our culture but greedily demands the same rights and freedoms, and in some cases demands to suppress those freedoms.

Perhaps the problem in America is that the 'black' community is demanding much without offering anything in return?

Thanks for dissecting my essay and still missing the point of it, while replacing that point with one that was neither stated nor implied. My intent was to give a progress report on the state of diversity in America not uniformity. How could you be diverse from me and yet be the clone you imply that I want you to be? Your analysis of my essay simply proves that your position is all the more disingenuous because you attribute to me racist views that are not mine and in no way were either stated nor implied. I simply disagree with you and you cannot allow me to do so without finding a way in which to impeach my views.

Furthermore, I never tried to play any "victim card," but you have in your nearly line by line and yet completely off-point analysis of my remarks. I personally always try to connect with people of diverse values and cultural backgrounds as I come in contact with them. While teaching in Utah, I had the privilege of meeting a retired Air Force Colonel who emigrated from Trinidad-Tobago in the early 1960's. He had very strong views about all of these issues. He also was careful not to impeach African Americans with whom he disagreed. His plans and actions, however, spoke volumes about his view of the victimization drum beat here in America. As soon as his two daughters graduated from high school in Utah, he moved his family back to Trinidad so that his daughters would be able to date forward-looking, self-actuating young men of color.

He did not pretend that racisim and discrimination on the basis of color did not exist or that talented men of color such as himself did not have to make use of Affirmative Action to get ahead. But he viewed himself as a forward-looking, self-actuating man and he wanted the same caliber of men to be available to his daughters. I do not pretend to know what is like to be black in this country, but I do know what it is like to be Mormon in those parts of rural California that are largely Evangelical. I have experienced discrimination personally and know first hand of those evils. Being a 5th generation Mormon, persecution for religious conviction is part of my family heritage. Furthermore, when the Mormon church changed its policy on Blacks and the priesthood, in 1978, it was my privilege to baptize and ordain one of the first Black Mormon priests in Mexico, a Haitian dental student.

It is my original point that some ills facing Black America must be solved from within the African American community and cannot be solved by any other means. I would not presume to suggest how those problems will be solved only that the answer is within that community and not outside.

RedCounty, now you are backtracking. You insinuated a hell of a lot more in your post than a simple "progress report on the state of diversity in America." A reccuring theme was that we need to assimilate. Care to make any responses to my comments about that? For all your personal anecdotes about race relations, in the context of this debate (between you and I, not the original post) they are simply irrelevant. They have nothing to do with any of the rebuttals that I made to your post.

Since you did not directly address any of the points that I made - and this is a debate board - I have nothing else to say until you do.

In raw numbers....maybe.

Proportional to relative population and power about dead last.

America was a deeply racist society for the vast majority of its history and it was supported by the majority of whites in this nation.

There was no real mass uprising among whites against abuses of black Americans, until the 60's and even that might be an overstatement.

Rather than leap to equality, this nation was dragged kicking and screaming.

Which does cement further the point I made about African-Americans identifying themselves as such. Although blacks have been an integral part of US history since before there was a US (back when New York City was New Amsterdam)


They were always treated and referred to as a single separate groups and so it became a reality. People with no other identity to cling to will take what is thrust at them.

That is a central issue, but I think we could use some perspective.

When black people talk of "refusing to be like White people" it is on a very limited basis. Frankly compared to differences we see in other nations blacks are nearly identical to whites in culture.

They accepted (indeed actively embraced) the Christian religion, they dress the same, speak the same language etc.

The differences are small but meaningful to most blacks. Being treated like sub-humans made for a tradition of pride in the black community in these small differences.

Mainly in music and dance and a slight common accent in speech (more exaggerated when not in public or when showing off for the cameras like rap stars do).

Also differences in things like hair style, though this is due to the fact that African hair is structurally different form Europeans (we really can't do buzz-cuts or comb-overs, though some may try the latter )

These things generally do not intrude on the lives on non-blacks and are personal practices clearly covered in the rights all Americans share of individual freedom.

Yet some in the majority seek to make an issue of them. I honestly don't believe they expect them to end as much as they expect to score political points.

So when SuzySteamboat or Nighttimer speak of refusing to give up black culture they mean practices which should not be points of contention.

If a person dances or sings differently, what's the difference?



In general blacks demand to be treated as any European ethnic minority such as the Irish or Italians. Allowed to celebrate a unique culture without being vilified for it.

The Irish have St. Patrick day parades and everything is fine (despite catholics, much less Irish catholics being a small minority in this country), when blacks adopt Kwanzaa they are ridiculed for being separatists.

I do NOT mean assimilation in the StarTrek TNG/BORG sense of the word, but rather that as Americans we have some shared values in common that bind us together as Americans rather than merely people who live on the same chunk of dirt. I believe that diversity and assimilation are not contradictory ideas, not in the American sense of either word. As for personal anecdote, I am the sum of my personal experiences and they have done much to shape my world view. And if you feel you need to cut off debate and ignore me, that is your choice just as it was your choice to dissect my first entry in this debate.

To me and from the perspective of my life experience, America is a work in progress in which people must be forward-looking rather than recriminating. In the 1960s when Civil Rights were very new and very much being resisted, I also experienced discrimination on the basis of my religious minority. I indirectly benefited from the progress of Civil Rights in this country because as White America became more tolerant of people of color, they also became more tolerant of Mormons. And in 1978, the Mormon Church become completely inclusive of Blacks having benefited from the same Civil Rights that lifted Blacks from the evils of discrimination. Thus assimilation American style led to greater diversity in the same American tradition.

I hope that this latest entry in some small way addresses your concerns.

...and here is were most black Americans become confused. After all black Americans have been sharing these values for a long time. When it come to political equality and the rule of law probably longer than most being most affected by it.

What values aren't being shared?

Okay, and now I am confused, having clarified myself only to find myself back in the fog as it were and a tedious fog at that. I get the distinct feeling that as long as I contiinue in this debate I will always somehow be viewed as standing on the wrong foot at the wrong time.

RedCountyTeacher:

My question was in response to comments such as this.

Clearly you think large portions of black America are "hiding" from White America, which I have to say isn't really the case.

There is certainly mistrust, you must understand that many still living remember the 60's vividly and the suspicion that comes from being herded to the back of buses dies hard. children who have heard these stories recounted have learned to tread carefully as well.

However blacks are not so distrustful of whites as to prevent integration with American culture. Indeed they have been integrated into the values of America for hundreds of years.

What "cultural protectionism" are you talking about?

Yes.




Yes. Many people are generalizing the african-american community as a bunch of rap-listening-bling-blinging-cap-busting thugs and criminals with no ambition. Distortion, I do believe, is an understatement.




Lunch with my father's partner and his family, who all are quite wonderful people.




While I do believe important I do not believe necessary. We are not all grouped into different classifications based on color of skin anymore. If we are all equal then through our diversity we are linked simply by being a member of the human race; not the white race, not the black race- but the human race.

Thank you for elaborating on your definition of assimilation. I did not make a decision to ignore you, but simply not respond any further until you addressed my first points. That's how debate tends to work. There's no point in talking to someone if they don't respond. I don't know why you bring up, for the second time now in this thread, the way I responded to you the first time. Calling it "dissection" and such... no, it's debating. If you make a point I disagree with, I will respond to it. I did nothing remarkable or extraordinary.



RedCountyTeacher, I understand the points you are trying to make, but I hate the word "assimilate" nonetheless and I suppose no one could ever convince me that it's something that black people as a whole should embrace. Not only does it reinforce the idea that we are outside of "mainstream society" by virtue of simply having certain cultural quirks (when every single culture has things originated and expressed usually among that culture only, like Italians, Jews, Native Americans, Irish - absolutely no different from blacks, so why are we the only ones constantly urged to assimilate?) but it also reinforces the idea that black culture = bad, and white culture = good. And that's just racist.

You have addressed a significant part of my post, but you have yet to explain where you're coming from with comments like the following:



and



You obviously mentioned these things for a reason. I would like to know your motivation.

Sigh. And I was trying to stay out of this debate. It's hot. I don't need the aggravation.

It's another chapter in the ongoing saga of "The Negro Problem." How tedious.

However, since you dragged my name into this debate Moif, I'm going to respond to you.

I'll take your last statement first. Perhaps the problem in America is that the 'black' community is demanding much without offering anything in return?

I'm going to go out on a limb here and surmise that you've never read any Richard Wright, James Baldwin, Ralph Ellison or even Alex Haley. I'm guessing you don't know much about Marcus Garvey, Nat Turner, Sojourner Truth, Gabriel Prosser, Dred Scott, the New York Draft Riots, John Brown, W.E.B. DuBois, The Harlem Renaissance, The Black Panthers, Angela Davis, or The Birth of A Nation or Sweet Sweetback's Badass Song. I'm going to speculate that you've never visited America and much, if not all, you know about the history of this nation's race relations comes from the media, short sections in books about American or friends that have visited "over here."

Furthermore, I'm going to postulate that you have never had a prolonged conversation or relationship with a conscious African-American. Please correct me if I'm in error in any of my conjectures.

Because if you haven't done any of those things then you really don't have a clue as to what you're talking about, Moif. I freely admit that I don't know anything about Denmark so I try not to reveal my appalling ignorance by attempting to speak as if I do.

If you didn't know, the Black community has given much to this country and received very little in return without fighting for, pleading for, praying for, bleeding for and dying for. The only thing Black Americans have ever "demanded" of White America is that they live up to their own honied words: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.–

That's it in a nutshell. And as most people react when faced with their hypocrisy many White Americans only acknowledged the truthfulness of those words with great reluctance and grudgingly. Other resisted with laws, religion and social customs extending equality to Black men and women. If law, religion and social custom failed, then racist Whites fell back on the gun, the rope, the torch and terrorism to preserve their position of racial supremacy.

The Black community has fought in every war this country has been in. The Black community has contributed to America's science, history, sports, arts, politics, business and every other aspect of this culture. The Black community provided untold millions and billions of dollars of unpaid labor to this country and never received the promised 40 acres or the mule.

And if it weren't for the Black Community in America the Beatles, Rolling Stones, Elvis Presley and Led Zeppelin would never had a Robert Johnson, Howlin' Wolf or Muddy Waters to steal their licks from.

Let's get something straight Moif. I do not want to assimilate into whatever YOU think America is. I have already assimilated as much as I want to or can. You are deluded in your mistaken belief because the largest racial group in America are Caucasians that must mean America is a Caucasian and Eurocentric society. Two words: it ain't.

I am just as much a part of the whole as any Caucasian born in the United States. I have the inalienable right to my own uniqueness and I will not and can not tuck it away in the back of a closet like a suit that no longer is in style. I belong here just as much as anyone else. As I have stated before and Suzy Steamboat has also clearly stated, I am not going to become what others believe I should be in order to win their acceptance. "Their" acceptance is not worth it if it comes at the price of losing myself to find their approval.

The hell with that.

No Moif, I don't see any problem with my "Black/Afro-American culture." I really don't care who does see a problem with it.

Last week I had a wonderful conversation with a woman who teaches jazz and Afro-Caribbean dance in my city's ballet company. She learned her technique from Katherine Dunham who at age 96 is STILL teaching dancers, Alvin Ailey and the Dance Theatre of Harlem. The contributions "the Black community" have made and continue to make to America are amazing in the width, depth and scope of it all.

I wouldn't presume to tell you how Denmark should go about handling it's problems with Muslims. I'm very good at NOT offering advice on something I know little to nothing about and am not remotely qualified to speak about.

Insofar as the complex issue of how race is lived in America and the history of this ongoing story, I would strongly recommend that you might wish to read he Swedish scholar Gunnar Myrdal's 1944 book, An American Dilemma. Though dated, Myrdal's observation that many White Americans viewed Negroes like so much crabgrass and wished they would simply go away isn't.

[T]here is no doubt that the overwhelming majority of white Americans desire that there be as few Negroes as possible in America. If the Negroes could be eliminated from America or greatly decreased in numbers, this would meet the whites' approval -- provided that it could be accomplished by means which are also approved. Correspondingly, an increase of the proportion of Negroes in the American population is commonly looked upon as undesirable. (Page 167)

That's a sentiment I fear at times still has appeal to some Whites in America in general and some of the posters on America's Debate specifically.

I don't think "the overwhelming majority" of White Americans think as Myrdal gloomily theorized. Whites risked their own lives to fight slavery, establish the abolishment movement, support the Underground Railroad network of escaped slaves, challenge segregation, and bled, fought and died marching for civil rights. So much progress has been made that only a complete cynic and total fool could say there had not.

But while most of the heavy lifting has been done, the day of Dr. King's dream coming true hasn't quite got here yet.

You're a pretty smart guy, Moif, but are you smart enough to know what you DON'T know?

When was the last time you sat down for a meal with a family/person not of your racial background

Sunday, but it was a bief encounter, not a meal.

I go to one coffee shop during the week and to Borders on Sunday when my regular hang out is closed.

I read the paper at coffee shop, because my cats jump in the middle of things if I try at home. I have it timed where I can finish the paper and two cups of coffee at about the same time.

Sunday, I had finished the paper and walked to the back of the store to stretch my legs. When I return to the table, a black woman was helping her self to the paper. I smiled at he and told her that I was through with the paper and she could have it. (I rarely take papers out of the coffee shop. They tend to collect in the car for weeks until I finally get fed up and toss them in the recycling cart I sat back down and she felt comfortable enough to sit at my table without an invitation. I had planned to leave, but decided to stick around and talk to her for a few minutes. We shook hands and exchanged names. Her's was Sheila. There is a certain beauty in all this. If she's in Borders on another Sunday, I have another friend. If not, well it's like the old saying about "two ships passing in the dark."

turnea

Thats fair enough and not unreasonable, but do you know how the Irish have been treated by most other Europeans in the past few hundred years?

Today they are treated as equals of course, but it was not always so. They were used as slaves by many people, not least the English, subjugated and kicked around, massacred and generally abused. If you look closer at European history then you'll find that all society was once like this. Go back further and you'll see slavery in all European nations.

But it is not so today, at least not in western Europe, at least not legally...

My point is that the relationship between Black Americans and White Americans is not exclusive but a part of a far greater pattern of sociological development. Slavery was a universal reality until it was largely ended by the European nations on what can only be described as moral grounds. No one outside of Britain forced the British to outlaw slavery in 1806 and whilst America took its time, the same is true of America, It was surely an internal American decision to end slavery.

Granted it was a long and painful process that as you indicate probably isn't ended yet. But that doesn't change the fact that it was, and still is a course of action largely taken on moral grounds. That the white majority of America, gradually changed their culture to accommodate their black citizens.

My question must be, has the black community undergone an equal change to accommodate the white citizens of America? (This is what I meant in my first post)

Is black culture in America open to outsiders?

I don't know (which is why I'm asking) but my impression is black culture is largely closed to most white Americans, and this is where I draw the parallel with our Muslims minorities. They are smaller closed societies within our greater society. Outsiders are not welcome.

Another way to put this is the problem of the English and their language. Please bear with me...

When I lived in England with my GF, we were able to speak to each other in Danish and English. We could thus include the English in our conversations or we could exclude them because we had our own language. For the English, where ever they go, their language is understood and they are vulnerable to scrutiny from all sides, but most Englanders don't speak a second language lest it be a smattering of bad French so the English are forever shut out when they travel abroad.

Do you see what I'm saying? For most white Americans, America is their culture. It cannot be separated from white American culture in the same way that ethnic minorities can separate their ethnic culture from the main stream American culture.

I understand that Black culture in America is unique in that it is basically a culture manufactured by circumstance and thus has no other primary language but English, but looking aside from the language aspect, there is a definite black culture in the USA. A culture to which white people cannot belong.


I presume Kwanzaa is a festive celebration of some sort? I don't see why this would be considered separatist unless Kwanzaa is a festival of hatred and I can't believe you'd mention it if it was.

How much actual friction are you talking about here?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Nighttimer

You are correct. I know none of those except for Marcus Garvey and I have not had any debate with African Americans except here at AD.

But its a bit unfair to say I dragged you into this debate. I didn't ask you to respond or demand it. I simply quoted you.
You are not under any obligation to respond to me.


Yes. I know that. Thats what I said...


Then what is it?


Yes you are. I've never said otherwise. THATS my whole point in a nutshell.


Why not? You probably have an excellent perspective from the outside. I'm not saying you should or shouldn't. Just pointing out that just because you don't feel comfortable about something doesn't mean I have to agree with you.


I understand that. turnea makes it clear, but that doesn't mean to say that the day hasn't arrived simply because the white majority is resisting it. Or vice versa. I don't know, which is why I ask. If I use crude terminology or clumsy arguments then take this as a sign that I am a crude and clumsy person, but please don't turn your back on me simply because I asked questions that you found uncomfortable. I'm not an ogre. Give me an answer that makes sense and I'll probably understand and recognize it on the basis of its merits.


Yes. Which is exactly why I ask questions.


editted for spelling

With such recent history of conflict is is true that relations on both sides are bound to be strained.

Many black people are still distrustful of whites. They have a hard time believing that a centuries old racist outlook can be changed in a couple generations.

I am a bit more optimistic on the matter than most, but I still recognize there are racists out there.

That said black culture isn't really "closed" as I see it. Most blacks actually encourage white adoption of some aspects of the culture as they feel it leads to greater understanding.

The popularization of hip-hop is the most recent example, though when it comes to music this has been going on for a long time.

Most blacks aren't intent on shutting whites out of their lives, don't get me wrong there are a few who intend just that but most are all too happy to form links with whites.

It is only reasonable considering the numbers. Blacks are surrounded by whites rather than the other way around. Cultural protectionism is more likely in the majority than the minority because it is more possible.

You will note that when the question is put to most American whites as to where substantial numbers of blacks are refusing to "integrate" the answers tend to be quite weak.

The fact that is continues to be a talking point is evidence of whites being out of touch with blacks as I see it.

The last minority I sat down and ate with was my wife last night. I went to a funeral the Friday before last for, my buddy, Harrison Ireland, a black male who left behind two sons one with a college degree and another now pursuing an advanced engineering degree. The son of an English teacher, his use of the King's English was much more consistent than mine. Harrison was a person who opened up to everybody and there were many whites and hispanics at his funeral. I never saw Harrison practicing any actions unique to "black" culture. I really seldom thought of him as a black man. He was just my friend. I miss you, buddy. It's a two way street folks. If you are a minority who thinks whites are out of touch than befriend a white person. We really ain't (forgive me, Harrison) that bad to talk to.

My experience with blacks is primarily with individuals who share the same values and concerns and economic status as I do. I think the problem with this debate is we are assuming a single black culture. There is a subculture that resides within the black community that leads to lower academic achievement and higher illegitimate births. Books by Ogbu and McWhorter document this. There is nothing wrong with celebrating your culture, but it is time to recognize that hundreds of years of discrimination have left a cancer in the community that needs to be rooted out.

Don't I know it. The people I've considered by best friends have been white since I was ten.

That said, it still doesn't count out the fact that whites are often out of touch with the black community.


This is where critical thinking comes in. It does no good to associate with black people if one labors under the illusion that they are "the good ones".

As a black person who's had contact with other blacks from every level of the economic strata I can saw there is no fallen subculture.

There is no "culture" of blacks who undervalue education and endorse out-of wedlock births.

There are individuals who make poor choices but it has nothing to do with their culture.

Whites who believe there is will forever be out of touch, always hunting for that needle in the haystack.

What you ignore is there is disagreement within the black community on culture's role in certain negative actions in black America.

From
Scholars weigh in on Ogbu's research

By JOSEPH TARTAKOFF
EDITOR IN CHIEF

May 8, 2003




Same article



Same article



Clearly, if McWhorter is out of touch it is going to be pretty hard for us white guys to get in touch. I'm sorry, just because I do not accept that present day racism is the whole reason behind high imprisonment rates and high out of wedlock birth rates, among black Americans, does not make me out of touch.

Let me quote another out of touch guy, in other words he ain't a liberal, Walter Williams, from his article "Losing the Race":

Why? Is it so hard to believe that black people can misunderstand racial dynamics as well?




Since when did anyone ever argue that there are only two hypotheses worth considering?

The mythical "failing sub-culture" and the "ongoing racist subjugation" are both way off in explaining problems in the black community


Even McWhorter recognizes the historical roots of the problem.



You'll be hard pressed to find anyone "in touch" who doesn't recognize the fundamental role of the nation recent and historical policies of racism in today's concerns.

In any case, in every formerly cast out impoverished community we have seen the same problems, it is not unique to blacks.

Where do you think anti-Irish bigots formed there biases about the drunken, brawling, unruly immigrants?

It had nothing to do with Irish culture and everything to do with poverty.

Gang violence in America started among poor whites.

This has nothing to do with culture and everything to do with socio-economic status and the stresses poverty and exclusion can have on any community black or white.

Unfortunately, it is not purely an issue of poverty. Blacks, from the same socio-economic status have lower test scores than whites. Whites from families making $30K a year have SAT scores equating the scores of blacks from families making $100K a year

Here Turnea agrees with me



Yes, the historical roots of the problem is racism. This does not mean racism has not induced negative