Just curious?

Maybe we need to publish a visual guide to prevent mistaken identity and future unfortunate "incidents"?

The lesson here is that one should not make assumptions too quickly.

I'm half-Hispanic and half-French-Canadian in ancestry, and people think I'm all kinds of things. People often ask me if I am Italian or Jewish.

Well, perhaps because of the community I live in, I can tell Phillipino from Hawaiin, Hawaiin from Samoan, Latino from Middle eastern, Korean from Chinese from Japanese-

I only can't tell the dang white races apart- they all look alike to me LOL

My wife, on the other hand, being Russian, can tell all the white races apart, - and interesting to me, is how white Europeans can look very different than American Europeans, and most of the world definately differientiates between American races of white and color and themselves- such as an American black vs an African black.

I have some Gambian friends/co-workers, and they look far different than the American blacks that work with them.

Guess in a very diverse culture you get ued to the diversity, if nothing more than knowing which ethnic food you are eating LOL

There's actually a very interesting page on the PBS website that features a quiz Can You Tell The Difference? You have to sort 20 photos into 5 groups of 4, and the options are Asian, American Indian, White, Black, and Hispanic/Latino. The first time I took it, I got something like 2/4 Asians, 2/4 American Indians, only 1 Black... I can't remember the exact numbers but my score was terrible, lol. They really should have added Arabs to the mix. Or, to make things really interesting, Arabs and Jews.

I assume this is in relation to the "accidental" shooting of a Brazilian on the London Underground by undercover police officers who thought he was a suicide bomber.

The Metropolitan Police force has, from time to time, killed innocent people by accident (and sometimes not-so-accidentally, as in the case of Blair Peach in 1979). I'm a little sceptical at the official line of "this was a tragic accident; the police are under temendous pressure; blah blah blah".

But, in their defence, here's a photo of Germaine Lindsay, identified as the bomber on the Picadilly Line on 7 July (I flat out refuse to start calling it "7-7"!). Does he look especially Middle Eastern to you? Photo

How about this guy, one of the currently-sought suspects form the failed 21 July attacks? Photo

How about Richard Reid, the notorious (and Anglo-Jamaican) "shoe bomber"? Reid's mugshot

Now compare this to the (smiling) photo of Jean Charles de Menezes, the poor Brazilian guy that got his head blown off by Her Majesty's finest. Jean Charles' photo

It's also worth mentioning that Brazil has the most racially mixed society in the world. What nationality do you think this lady is? Thai, maybe? Phillipino? Nope - scroll down to the delegate photos on this link and you'll see the answer.

So the question is not quite as straightforward as an either/or choice between someone who looks like Ricky Martin and someone who looks like Yasser Arafat, is it?

Especially when you remember (or learn) that there are comparatively few Middle Easterners in the UK, and similarly few Latinos. Especially compared to the racial mix of the USA.

What there ARE lots of in the Muslim community here (presumably the target group for police suspicion - they certainly seem to feel like everyone suspects them - or why else would they need reassurance?) are lots of Pakistanis and Bangladeshis (who look generically "Indian"). Then there are Somalis and other East Africans (who look, well, distinctively East African, by and large), especially in London. And there are also the standard-issue mix of converts from pretty much any race you might think of. Including, I daresay, one or two Latino Muslims.

That doesn't excuse what happened (personally I think the office who pulled the trigger should at the veryleast be delisted from firearms duty). But it doesn't lead to much in the way of humour or levity, as far as I can tell.

I'm conscious that I haven't treated this much like it is a casual conversation thread. But then I don't think it's a very casual topic.

Edited to add Nice link Suzy. In the test, I got two out of the four in every group, except Latinos. Which, if I'm a reasonably typical Brit, reinforces my hunch that we don't have enough exposure to Latinos to reall yknow what they are, so we classify them based on other (equally unrealiable) guesswork.

I don't see that the London police should apologise for anything much at all here. By all the accounts I have seen, this man ran away from the Police, into a tube station, vaulted the barriers to run onto a tube train full of passengers whilst wearing a heavy coat during the middle of a city wide bomb scare.

What do people expect the police to do? Give such a man a verbal warning whilst he detonates several kilo's of explosives he may have strapped to his chest?

I'd have shot him as well.

Its one thing to accuse the police or the military for disdain for other people's lives, and I'm not shy of that in other circumstances, but its quite another when the police have to protect the civilians. If by their stupid behaviour, people, even innocent people, threaten the lives of others then they shouldn't be too surprised if they are taken seriously and shot by the police.

London is not Iraq. People in the west are not ignorant of the situation, nor of the reality which is upon us. There is no excuse for this man's stupid behaviour and frankly, it serves him right.

I cannot tell the difference between many Hispanics and Arabians and frankly I don't see why I should. The colour of a persons skin is irrellevent. The isssue here is the calibre of people's hearts and there is no way to judge such a thing until the deed is done.

Fear is nothing something to be ashamed of. Fear is a natural defence mechanism against perceived threats and the attitude that people are racist because they are afraid is ridiculous.

For example...

Link.

What this woman fails to understand is that her moral fortitiude, no matter how commendable it may be, doesn't guarantee her safety. In the last set of failed bombings, one of the men trying to detonate his suicide bomb was standing next to a baby carriage. In the first set of bombings, one of the attackers was later described as a good family man and a kind hearted, gifted teacher who loved children.

These murderers are the nicest people in the world by some accounts. How are people in the tube meant to react? If you come across an 'African looking man with a hold all at his feet' is sitting on a bus, is he likely to be a suicide bomber?

Probably not, but who knows, so why take the risk?

Moif, I'm absolutely baffled by your opinions. You seem to be saying that, among other things, that killing people of color - any color, it doesn't matter because if they're darker than you, obviously they should be treated suspiciously and they all look alike anyways - because of hysteria or social climate or whatever the reason is that you don't let someone assert their innocence before you freaking shoot them dead - is completely and fully morally acceptable and justified. Am I reading you right here?

This statement:

Clearly indicates that you see all darker-skinned people as being inherently dangerous and therefore it is okay to shoot to kill them apparently for trivial or maybe even no good reason. Seriously, you see no good reason to be able to tell the difference between a Hispanic and an Arab? None? No reasons at all? How's about the fact that one has an established history of committing violence against Eastern European countries, and the other... doesn't?

And this statement:



Indicates that you think darker skin + any of the slightest suspicious activity = justifications for murder, which is especially appalling because if the person happened to be born white (or even looked white) and did that same activity, they would be alive according to that equation. Believe it or not, in the other thread you were posting about racial profiling of Arabs here, I actually parted ways with traditional liberal philosophy and agreed with you for the most part about your opinions. Logically, there is no need to waste time and resources searching everyone when there is a specific kind of person who is committing these acts. But now, according to you if I were in your country and, let's say maybe I didn't speak the language or understand the laws and customs, and there is a misunderstanding that leads to police aiming guns at me. Granted, I probably would not run, but when placed in a potentially lethal situation you really can't say how the hell you'd react. But if I took flight and was shot dead because I was suspected of being a bomber of Middle-Eastern descent (and I'm not going to beat around the bush, because I know damn sure if that man had been a blond-haired blue-eyed woman wearing a long coat, no one would have freaking looked twice at her), you would completely condone that and wouldn't feel any sympathy for the victim or that there was anything the police could have/should have done differently? And if you were in that cop's shoes, you would have shot me dead too (because it's better safe than sorry... except if you're dark-skinned)?

How many unfortunate "accidents" do you think are acceptable? Do you really believe that it doesn't matter if people can distinguish between Arabs and Hispanics, Native Americans, blacks?

Would you feel the same way if you were one?

Not quite.

I'm saying that ANY BODY, regardless of skin colour that acts in a threatening manner towards a train full of passengers cannot complain if they are taken seriously and shot by the police.

~


That is not what I said.

I said, I cannot tell the difference between many Hispanics and Arabians and frankly I don't see why I should.

My reasoning is that skin colour isn't a guarantee of a threat, it only heightens the possibility.

In other words, I don't see why I should be afraid of a dark skinned person carrying a rucsack on a bus, but I accept that other people will.

~


Not at all.

What I'm saying is in direct reply to the opinion voiced by Sarah of Berkshire on the BBC site. She appears to be implying that by not wanting to sit next to a person who may represent a threat, people are acting in a racist fashion.

In my opinion, there is nothing wrong in defending yourself against a perceived threat by walking away from it.

~


I understand your concern but I would point out that the Police here (in Denmark, but I assume in England to) would shoot any one who acted in this way, regardless of the colour of the man's skin.

I know for a fact that the Danish police have shot white skinned people who were considered to be an immediete threat to civilians.

~


Yes. If you had acted the way this man did, then I would have been left with no choice but to assume you were attacking the tube train. What other course of action was left? To wait and see? Once the act is done then its too late to decide on an appropriate course of action.

~


No it doesn't matter. Its not their race that sets them apart but their behaviour. If they refuse to obey the Police and act in a threatening manner then I don't care what colour they are. They should be treated as a threat.

With regards to ordinary people (those not in the police forces) then I don't care if they look upon other people as a threat. As long s all they are doing is keeping their distance then that fine by me.


~


It might seem odd but I was once one.

Growing up in the north of England during the 1970's with blonde hair and a foreign name was justification enough to be beaten up several times both by other children and by adults. One teacher I had when I was 9 years old, always referred to me as 'a dirty little foreigner'. I know what it feels like.

If I was in London, and Scandnavians were then blowing up buses and trains there, then I would not be surprised if people looked at me in distrust. I would expect nothing less. Its natural human behaviour and I don't consider it racist.

If I grew truly afraid of a backlash, then I would leave London and return to Scandinavia.

Moif, I apologize for misinterpreting the context of your "I don't care" comment. ::scrolls through comments that don't involve said misinterpretation:: Nope, I guess that was all.