Harsh words...


Fox News

What is the point of this debate Danya or is this just another attempt by you to smear Bush?

Darcaine

The debate...hmmm...how about the embarrasment Bush is causing us all. How about the people who cannot even travel outside the U.S. without having to appologize for their country.

How about the fact that there are plenty of people that are not crazy left wing liberals that agree that the action we are taking is wrong and ill advised.

How about how Bush likes to make it sound like God is on his side when a higher authority in that matter disagrees.

You pick a topic...I'm not picky.

Since when, in France, do we have to apoligize when the French are happy we saved their butts TWICE from the SAME country??

You can talk about the rest of the world if you like. Even Italy, who signed that great letter of support. Their people have been protesting about this war longer than most everyone else.

It's funny to me how some American's can become so insulted when the world doesn't agree with Bush/war but then turn around and immediatley insult the entire country in response. Arrogance will get you...exactly where you are today. Hated through out the world and an embarrasment to the rest of us. And when you rush in and kill lot's of Iraqi's and take over the country people will not simply go along and forget what happened. This will be a stain on us for the rest of our forseeable future.

No, Danya - YOU pick. You started this.

We want to debate here. Please define this debate more clearly or I will have no choice but to close it (and I don't want to do that).

And I'm curious, why is this in foreign policy?

It can be moved if you like...I considered the speech given by the bishop to be regarding Bush's foreign policy due to the fact that he discussed why we are hated.

The point of this is mainly to show supporters that it isn't just flaming liberals that are against this administrations policies. It isn't just that France simply hates us or that Germany is ungreatful. I am trying to show that we have some real problems because of this administration and it goes way beyond party affiliation.

Basically, after hearing all of the excuses for why France, Germany, or even Canada are against us I wanted to hear the excuses given for the Bishops comments if there are any.

I get it. Thanks.

I'll leave it here for now since I see the angle at which you want to debate this.

I get confused when I don't see question marks in the first post of a thread

I have never apologized to anyone for my country. I personally don't give a rat's hindquarters what someone thinks of the US.
Sticks and Stones.......
I for one am not a cultural or moral relativist. I know in my heart that my country, it's founding principles and freedoms are far superior to any form of government in the modern world.
But I respect anyone else's opinion and try not to insult them for it.
If the Bishop feels the need to apologize for his country, so be it, why are his insecurities even news?

It's news for the same reason the rest of the worlds condemnation is news...but a little more interesting considering the source.

I, too, have travelled abroad and have never apologized for the USA - and never felt I had to. I never received the feeling from others abroad that I or my country were hated. In fact, quite the opposite. Several people befriended us because we were Americans. (Hard to believe? - not really.)

I have read that there was huge anti-war protests in the USA before the second world war - even as Germany was entering Poland, overrunning Europe, bombing the UK - so anti-war protests are nothing new.

I guess we are going to have a new thread every time someone 'blasts Bush.'

Was this traveling outside the US that you did within the last year? And please don't be so sensitive about unflattering threads concerning Bush. He is the current President and he is in the middle of some controversial storms right now. It comes with the terrority.

My travels were last year in England, Belgium, and Japan. Never had to apologize.
And wouldn't !

Yes, I have travelled outside the country within the last year.

And I have travelled outside the country since the 1970's (Nixon scandals), and the 1980's as well as the 1990's (Clinton scandals).

Maybe you should. I know this may seem inconceivable to you, but on extraordinarily rare occasions, some people who live outside the US actually have a valid point of view. Are you so arrogant that you cannot even consider criticism? I wouldn't have got that impression from some of your previous postings (in which you seem like a rational being), but to reject out of hand any critical comments that originate off of American soil is not rational.

I think the point here, though, is not that so many people outside the US hate America or Americans, they hate our leadership: our president, his administration, his administration's policies, and our acquiescent Congress. In that, they strike me as being eminently enlightened - and admirably correct.

I lived abroad for eighteen years - during most of the Reagan administration, the whole of Bush I, and most of the Clinton administration. I never once had to apologize for being American, but frequently found myself agreeing with criticisms of our various administrations. Living in a country is very different from travelling through or visiting a country. The level of hatred of people like Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush is impossible to communicate. As I was usually more vociferous in my criticism of such leaders (and the far more popular Clinton), I never found that I had to be apologetic about anything. Were I a literal apologist for any of our recent administrations (as many people on this forum are), I would never have ceased having to defend our leaders - and this Bush administration is the least defensible and most justly criticized of the past four presidencies.

Wertz - you seem amazed that DTOM won't apologize for the US in your first paragraph but then proceed to support what I thought was DTOM's position on not apologizing in your last paragraph.

What am I missing here?

Wertz,
I never dismiss out of hand anyones opinion. I enjoy hearing other points of view.
But I will apologize for my actions, and my actions alone.

I do not and will not bear the guilt or represent the mistakes of anyone else, or any administration, no matter what the party. I don't consider that arrogance. I simply don't see the need to be an Ambassador of Apologies. It's simple and respectable to simply say, if pressed, something like: yes, that's the Bush administration's policy and I don't agree with it.

I hate Mugabe's policies concerning farmers in Zimbabwe, should a Zimbabwian feel the need to apologize for his country?

By the way, no one in my party is in the administration. I come to my decisions by way of analysis and common sense, not by rote party line.

Sorry - I should have further edited the quoted post. I was suggesting that DTOM should "give a rat's hindquarters what someone thinks of the US" - not that he should apologize for what they think.

Thus:

Maybe you should, etc.

I'm reminded of the justification Bin Laden used for killing thousands of our civilians. It is our tax dollars and our elected government that we allow to commit the things they do.

I don't know how you could disagree with that since you are arguing the need to perpertrate exactly the kind of thing we were attacked for. You are a more than willing participant in our governments policies.

That once again, in my opinion, this attacks the person posting - rather than sticking to discussing the difference in viewpoints.

Somehow I don't see myself as an apologist - I see myself as having a different view. Should I feel badly about that? Am I a lesser being because of it? Are my brains damaged and therefore I arrived at where I am at? Assuming different viewpoints are based on 'aplogetic' obligations, or incoherent thought processes, denigrates the entire discussion.

Just as I give you credit for having given thought to your views (though I don't agree with some of them) I think it is also helpful to ascribe the same amount of thought to others - though the result might be different.

Like DTOM, I couldn't care less what others think of me. If other people judge me, by what the president says, than it's THEIR problem.

If anyone slaps a stereotype on me because of the country I live in, to heck with 'em. They are obviously not mature enough for me to want to deal with anyway. How can you judge 250 million people, by the actions of only a few?

Furthermore, if they think they're country is anymore righteous than mine, then they are ignorant about their own countries issues.

I have never lived nor traveled abroad. But I would refuse to apologize for anything my COUNTRY does, if I don't PERSONALLY have anything to do with it

--cheers