In a few Race Debate threads, the topic of "black cultural leaders" has come up. My questions for debate are:

Who do you perceive to be the black cultural leaders?

Are they helping or hurting the African American Community?

Justify both of your answers, per favore.

CP

This whole question seems a little weird to me. Surely we can agree that nobody -- nobody -- can be said to be the "cultural leader" of any ethnic group.

The most I would be willing to say is that there are some African-American individuals who have been perceived as leaders representing some aspects of the African-American experience. In general, these individuals have been those who have dedicated themselves to dealing with the special concerns of African-Americans. It's possible to name all sorts of people who have taken on this role, from Martin Luther King, Jr., to Huey Newton. (I am deliberately naming people who are no longer alive, to avoid starting a controversy about those still with us.) Some, in my opinion, have done great good, some have done great harm.

The question might be asked: Why do we not think of "white cultural leaders?" The very concept seems absurd. The answer is that the white experience is the "default" experience in the United States. You don't need a "cultural leader" when you are the "norm" in society.

I'd have to say we've moved away from the point were blacks have meaningful cultural leaders anymore. There is political leadership in some sectors (like the NAACP of the Congressional Black Caucus) but they have little true grassroots pull with most African Americans (though the NAACP could if they chose to).

Certainly no one has the younger generations growing up after the Civil Rights Struggle to in awe.

Some people make the mistake of referring to rap stars and the like as cultural leaders.

That would be WAY off. No more than Tom Cruise is a cultural leader. They are all too temporary distractions who ocassional try and send a message (which everyone then duly ignores).

Helping or Hurting?

I think the political membership like the NAACP largely helps though their partisanship can get out of hand at times.

The black leadership seems to be on standby, a shame since they are still needed.

Who do you perceive to be the black cultural leaders?

Colin Powell, Bill Cosby, Condelezza Rice and Clarence Thomas Honestly, there are none. I lost a lot of whatever respect I had for Jesse Jackson with the whole Schiavo fiasco, and Al Sharpton... I wrote him in in the Democratic primaries just cause. Actually, when it comes to the black community as a whole, I'm strangely disconnected until someone denigrates it I have little respect for the NAACP as well due to the complete lack of support, hell the complete lack of caring my mother received when she called them about suspected Westerville Police profiling. I don't know what good they do anymore.

Are they helping or hurting the African American Community?

I would have to say they do both in different ways, but hurting probably outweighs the help at this point in time, if only in the manner that they seem to damage White America's perception of the black community. Fairly or unfairly, we are often seen as looking to blame others first for our problems by whites because it seems like the only time we hear from "black cultural leaders" is when we are slighted by whites.

Who do you perceive to be the black cultural leaders?

The word "culture" brings to mind raw creative energy. The people, I would mention are all dead. I would include Duke Ellington and his arranger Billy Strayhorn, Ella Fitzgerald and Nina Simone, among others, in music. In literature there are, of course, Richard Wright and James baldwin, but also lesser knowns like Chester Himes and Williard Motley. I loved Motley's Knock on any Door which I read decades ago. Ah, "live fast, die young and have a good looking corpse" in the words of Motley's central character Nick Romano.

Then in politics, there was Martin Luther King, Jr., who brought to the spoken word the same dynamism the musicians and writers I have named brought to their pursuits.

Are they helping or hurting the African American Community?

What I have mentioned is only the tip of the iceberg, but if it were the total of black "cultural" leadership, it would still be substantial. Believe me, the people I mentioned enriched the lives of all they touched.

Note: Ok, I'm living in the past, but that's my choice.

Who do you perceive to be the black cultural leaders?
If I had to list some, it would be the usual suspects, and usually liberals. Bond, Mfume, Sharpton, Jackson. Some elected such as Waters, Conyers, Lewis, etc....

Are they helping or hurting the African American Community?
It seems obvious judging by our black AD'ers, that most if not all 'black leaders', not only aren't elected or appointed per se, but also not given a heap of credibility.
This gives me no small amount of relief concerning race relations, since I believe many of these self appointed and self aggrandizing leaders have created for themselves a personal fiefdom that borders on being a major industry in America.
Booker T. Washington seems to sum up my thoughts, though in 1911:

"There is a class of colored people who make a business of keeping the troubles, the wrongs and the hardships of the Negro race before the public. Having learned that they are able to make a living out of their troubles, they have grown into the settled habit of advertising their wrongs, partly because they want sympathy and partly because it pays. Some of these people do not want the Negro to lose his grievances, because they do not want to lose their jobs." Link

Seems to sum up the unelected usual suspects at least.

I think Victoria hit the nail on the head.
'Cultural leaders' is somewhat passe' at this point in time with the diversification of the race in all aspects of society. I think its now more about, and this question seems to be better in the context of Political Leaders, those that have the interests of (some or most?) of the black community as first and foremost on their agenda. Jesse Jackson does come to mind. I think these folks might be becomming passe as well as we finally do integrate fully, but I would have to defer that to a person who more fully understands if black leaders with exclusively black political agendas are still necessary. (?)



I believe there are black cultural leaders still, albeit really not designed to be, never talk about being- for any particular political agenda. I have noticed that some black artists have used their wealth and fame to bring others they admire and respect into the forum. While many artists are just happy to run on their good luck, black artists are bringing up new talent.

On this note, PDiddy with his bringing 'Bad Boys of Comedy' to HBO. He says he spanned the globe to bring the best new talent to the forefront, the next generation of up and coming black comics, (and having watched this weekly I see very little black on white race humor or projects jokes), its gone way beyond that.

Also Russell Simmons and Mos Def for their Def Poetry Jams, also on HBO every week, not exclusively black performers, so ..great! They have done an amazing job of elevating something that 1. was basically profitless 2. hardly understood or seen by the gen/pop 3. a brilliant cafe culture- and made it accessable to everyone, Im sure on a hope and a prayer that we out here might 'get' it, if we 'bothered' to watch for 5 minutes.



Of course theyre liberal, the conservatives had an agenda to divide the south and get white only votes. Do you expect black political leaders to align themselves with a party that actively worked against them for decades past? GOP leader-whats his name- just apologised for this strategy to the black community, LAST WEEK. Its like the Vatican that finally realizes the earth rotates around the sun, 400 years after Galileo proclaims it and was exiled and theyre suddenly sorry. But theyre not really sorry, they just need/want/hope for the votes.

Edited to fix quotes.

Yes, Artemise....what was I thinking. The liberal black leaders have done soooo much to help the cause of blacks in America. We could tick down the list of notable accomplishments....Tawana Brawley....Freddie's Fashion Mart........Jacksons corporate shakedown scam that makes the Sicilians blush....comparing conservatives to the Taliban......the racial divisiveness by these leaders is quite a sight to behold.....
I guess if they didn't act like a black version of the klan, they might get more respect in their own communities.
You're absolutely right about the GOP's past strategies, but you've played right into the DNC's hands by not seeing their under the radar agenda.

So the GOP apologized........when are these self appointed kings of victimhood going to apologize for their actions?

Well, isnt that just sweet. Kings of Victimhood? Jesse Jackson was present at the asassination of Martin Luther King, on the balcony at the time ( he has a long civil rights resume), man are those blacks whiny victims, have been all along, all the way back to 1911?

Of course there are cases of misplaced loyalty, look at Terry Schiavo! Both black and white ministers messed up there.

I cant hijack this thread onto another race debate, but I would sure love it if someone who is BLACK could deal with this so-called victimhood issue that comes up all the time. I feel it is a huge misunderstanding, the very misconception which leads to ideological discrepancies surrounding so many issues and the reason many races just wont talk to white people about their problems-because they are seen as playing victim.

People HAVE been victimized but noone wants to be seen that way. They are less and less by race and sex over the years but its not gone. The concept of victimhood has also moved into the backround only coming out in extremes, and these (older) leaders are taking on other functions, they dont mean so much to the youth who have moved beyond, mostly swallowing hard to the bare facts of existance in the US, which is just hard, not really or entirely race or sex based.

All race threads denigrate into 'blacks are at fault for everything about their point of view,'. They are playing victims, are not as smart as whites (by school statistics 'fall behind'), responsible for most crimes, responsible for single family homes without fathers, baby makers-welfare mothers, unwilling to assimilate, encouraging violence through music and separation through ebonics, of course Black History Month is an abomination to equality!
Can the caucasions on this board even compile an understanding of the total accusations they make over thread upon thread? If all of it is assimilated, then blacks have every right to feel victimized or they should just give up to being a scourge upon society. Its a wonder that most can overcome this collective vision of themselves and move productively throughout american society.

IF I were black Id have a hard time with these views which still pervade as seen by all race threads on Ad, by some of the smartest people I know.
Its a bit worrysome and disconcerting.

I mentioned some black cultural leaders, they are doing great things to advance blacks in the arts, sports speaks for itself where black input is concerned, black political leaders such as Condi, Colin or Thomas have never reached out to the black community, and neither have conservatives in any way, DTOM. So you might slight those active in politics for 40 years as Kings of Victimhood, but at least someone was putting the agenda to the front.

Someone recently sent me a PM asking me do I get sick of these Race Debates? Yes, I do. VERY sick and tired of the shallowness and shrillness in these debates that usually quickly descend into diatribes.

The superficiality of Dontreadonme's post is one of the reasons why. He rants against "liberal Black leaders" but where is the analysis? Where is the nuance? It's just a shallow list of the "usual suspects" (Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Julian Bond, Kwesi Mfume, Maxine Waters, John Conyers and John Lewis). Good God almighty! EVERY NAME on that list harkens past to the Sixties, Seventies, Eighties and Nineties!

Do Whites really believe there have been no new faces to ascend in positions of African-American leadership than the half-dozen or so Black "leaders" on the speed dial of CBS, ABC, NBC, Fox and CNN?

You want leadership? Okay, I'll play along. Michael Eric Dyson is a leader. Bill Cosby is a leader. Barack Obama is a leader. Oprah Winfrey is a leader. Colin Powell is a leader. Representative Jesse Jackson Jr. is a leader. Maryland Lt. Governor Michael Steele is a leader. Russell Simmons is a leader. Kanye West is a leader. Terrence Howard is a leader. Stanley Crouch is a leader. Tavis Smiley is a leader. Cornel West is a leader. Manning Marable is a leader. John McWhorter is a leader. Walter Mosley is a leader. Keith Boykin is a leader. Phill Wilson is a leader. Quincy Jones is a leader. Journalists George E. Curry, Clarence Page, Bob Herbert, Farai Chideya, Kevin Powell, Courtland Millloy and E.R. Shipp are leaders. Henry Louis Gates is a leader. Dr. Julianne Malveaux is a leader. Chuck D., KRS-One, Queen Latifah, Will Smith, Ice Cube, P. Diddy, Cheo Hodari Coker and Aaron McGruder are leaders. Debra Dickerson, Randall Robinson, Earl Ofari Hutchinson, Earl Graves, Maya Angelou, Joseph C. Phillips, Jim Brown, Serena and Venus Williams, Gene Upshaw, Denzel Washington, Spike Lee, Tom Joyner, Les Brown, Representative Harold Ford, Dr. Ron Walters. Earvin "Magic" Johnson and new NAACP president Bruce Gordon are just a FEW of those I'd consider Black "leaders."

Some of you really need to make an effort and go beyond that extremely short list of "usual suspects" of Black "leaders" that the mainstream White media runs to every time they want to find out what Black folks are thinking.

Do you read Black columnists such as Joseph Phillips, Clarence Page, Bob Herbert or the 2004 Pulitzer Prize winner Leonard Pitts Jr?

Do you subscribe to or read Black publications such as ESSENCE, SAVOY, EBONY, JET, BLACK ENTERPRISE or VIBE? Ever read a Black newpaper?

Do you watch the Tavis Smiley show on PBS? Do you listen to "News and Notes with Ed Gordon" on NPR? Do you listen to a predominantly African-American radio program or talk show?

Do you bookmark websites which feature commentary, news, blogs or other sources of information run by African-Americans?

Because if you DON'T what makes you think you know anything about who IS and who IS NOT a Black "leader?" Is it whomever the TV networks say is one? If all you know about "Black leaders" is what the news media provides you, then your frame of reference is a limited and selective one. Selected by somebody else and limits your base of knowledge.

As long as you allow others to create your definitions you permit them to shape the parameters of how deeply you can think intelligently and critically. It's as if the whole range of food choices were limited to whatever is on the menu at McDonald's.

Dig. A. Little. Deeper.

"Our truncated public discussions of race suppress the best of who and what we are as a people because they fail to confront the complexity of the issue in a candid and critical manner." [Cornel West, 1993]

OK, Jesse Jackson gets some sort of life long get out of jail free card since he was present at MLK's assassination? Without regard to his actions and words? Other than you, who is calling blacks whiny victims? Sweet indeed......
Interesting that you can sum up the rank hypocrisies and atrocities committed by some of these 'usual suspects' as cases of misplaced loyalties. Do you give conservatives the same courtesy?


Why, are only blacks or possibly white liberals have authorized to have opinions or engage in debate on matters of race? The 'victimhood' issue that I bring up is that of the perpetuators of a victim class in pursuit of the almighty dollar and power, don't think yourself enlightened enough to twist my words into a condemnation of blacks as a whole.


Really....I'm surprised that you see it that way, because while some posters take that line, the prevailing theme by those that hold the opposite view is one where whites in this day and age are responsible for all ill's from poverty, racism and the prison system down to just plain not understanding minorities. Said as matter of fact, as if all understanding and compromise must come from the white community.


I know you to be intelligent enough to realize that this line is disingenuous at best and slander at worst. In the same paragraph you blast me for calling out the 'leaders' that I mentioned, (not blacks as a whole) yet you dare to speak of all conservatives, never reaching out. Never. Never never. My my, so absolutist when you are convinced in your righteousness.


With all due respect NT, no edict or law requires you to respond to any of these threads. I certainly don't always concern myself with the endless multitude of threads that either start or end as diatribes against conservatives.

Your input is always welcome and informative, and many people on AD look to you for insight on matters of race, whether you sought that role or not. But an underlying theme to many of your posts in the race threads is one of; don't question black culture, don't criticize black leaders, whites must make the full compromise, end of discussion.
You're absolutely correct on one point, my list of the usual suspects was shallow in length and nature. I apologize. I did a disservice to the many people, some of whom you listed that are making great contributions not only to society, but in the advancement of race relations as well. For what it's worth, I think Tavis Smiley is the most intelligent commentator that I have ever heard on radio or TV, and all of the networks and cable shows are fools for not snatching him up when let go from BET and again after his NPR gig. Now you may take this in the same stereotypical vein as 'some of my best friends are black!'........but I am greatly interested in race relations, I find it as interesting as politics, and more often than not, the two are intertwined. Though I tend to read books and columns by Sowell and Williams than Robinson or Ofari Hutchinson, I am fairly familiar with the majority of names that you cite.
But.....the usual suspects are in most cases, the most vocal and visible, and proclaim, yea verily, that they speak for and represent the black community. So if media CEO's, pundits and commentators have these names on speed dial, is it only the fault of whites? Is there a reason that I don't hear outcry by the black community to disavow much of what some of these people are saying? Cannot both sides claim some culpability here?
When civil rights leaders take organizations committed to that goal and turn them into special interest groups slavishly devoted to one political party, then stand in front of them and decry the opposition as wanting to write bigotry back into the Constitution.....and I cry foul.....am I being superficial?
When elected officials representing majority black districts claim that a destructive riot in their own neighborhood is a rebellion and peddling myths of conspiracies about the CIA and importing drugs into the black community......if I bring that up.....am I being shallow?
It seems perfectly legitimate to mention David Duke and his ilk, to see no problem with mentioning the GOP and the old Strom Thurmond in the same breath, to compare conservatives, the Taliban and the Confederacy, but when black 'leaders' are called on the carpet for making statements and acting in a similar vein......then....all of the sudden a critical eye is cast towards the speaker. Accusations of bigotry and racism abound or at the very least, just not being in touch with the black community.

In my humble and lay opinion, all sides must come together and reach compromise if we are ever to reach a state of good race relations. If it were you and I sitting down at the table, being anointed by our respective races (I'm not sure anyone could be considered a 'leader' of a the white community), what do you bring to the table? Does it differ from what the 'usual suspects' are saying?
I have issues with Affirmative Action and I think the the 'usual suspects' are in many cases, pimping victimhood and perpetuating racism to maintain their status quo. Their very comfortable and powerful status quo.

But I think I am more than willing to make compromise for the greater good of our society. I see influential people, both black and white, refusing to make any such compromise. White conservatives are called out ad nauseum for their failings in this regard. I simply called out some on the other side.

Let us turn it around for a bit- who are our white leaders? Do they represent whites?

Lord, to be associated with truly evil scum sucking low lifes like GW Bush or Karl Rove or Cheney or Niel Bush or Michael Milken or Ken Lay just because I am white makes my skin crawl (raising hand now- um, can I pick different white leaders now? ) -

I think it is a label that WHITE america pins on these various high profile folks- not really the "black"community.

All the "black" leaders I know, here in my nieghborhood, are no different than any other community activist.

Jesse Jackson earned his status by walking next to MLK during the bad times of the civil rights movement- including the aforementioned assasination, and was one of MLKs top men.

He stumbled several times along the way, as men are apt to do, but overall, he has been pretty effective, and he is a great speaker. I met him once myself, and he was a very personable man, and seemed humble and down to earth as far as meeting some no-name nothing white kid that wanted to meet someone famous could tell by his nice treatment of me.

I don't know half the names on NT's list- and I try to be informed, I really do LOL- and it is a sad commentary on myself, because I could name hundreds of "leaders" that are white, though I don't EVER call them "white leaders"- perhaps it is a good time to start calling them that

"Renowned white leader GW Bush today announced he would do something equally stupid today, while the other white leader called him stupid"-

Ya, I would like that.

Who do you perceive to be the black cultural leaders?

My personal perception I would guess is I don't think of anyone as a "black leader" unless they are the head of a nation that is primarily black and then call themselves that- making them technically a "black leader" LOL-

In US terms, I think of "poeple that make the news alot, claiming to be this or that"- whatever race they are.

I like to think my attempt to understand poeple that make the news in more than a term based on thier ethnicity.

I don't think of Jesse Jackson as a "black leader"- I think of Jesse Jackson that was part of MLKs civil rights movement and has stayed in the news every since.

I don't think of John Kerry as a "white leader" - I think of him as the Dem nominee and presidential candidate.

So I guess I Personally don't percieve anyone as a "black leader"- I guess until there is some "black leader" election?

Are they helping or hurting the African American Community?

Okay- who is the "they" we are talking about? I would take it on a case by case basis I suppose, and in the context of the specific kind of "help" or "harm" this imaginary person is claimed to have done.

Do they help thier specific community? Okay, Al Sharpton is mentioned often- I am sure, at some point in his lifetime, he helped a great deal of poeple in some direct form or another to get the name recognition he has today.

Okay, next question, Did Al Sharpton help heal the divide racsim and all that crap in this country? Don't think so- think he has used it to stay in the news actually.

Probably harmed his reputation among white GOP-ers too LOL

So the question just has to be more specific than that.

Oh, and if Jon Stewart introduces someone on to his show as a "black leader" - and the guest accepts that, that is good enough for me too.