Millions of people worked thier entire lifetimes without compensation in the United States.Niether them nor thier ancestors were able to benefit from this hard work.In fact,up until about 40 or so years ago,blacks paid taxes to a nation that openly denied them basic human rights.Thats how trillions were stolen from the black community.

If anyone has recieved any ''freebies'' its white america.This land wasnt acquired through ''just'' ways.Nor was the wealth that the USA enjoys.The ''explosion of criminal activity' you describe is due to a selfish,cruel and greedy majority controlling the justice system as well as the job market,both of which blacks get discriminated against in.By the way the USA has always been a criminal,rouge nation.Mass murderers and lunatics faces are posted in court rooms,on money,and on the sides of mountains.

The rest of your post is filled with ignorant,blanket statements.Not all black men refer to women as bitches.ANd if you dont think the fact that a white criminal gets more job oppratunities than a black non criminal,even when the black man is college educated and has a good work history has anything to do with black men not being able to provide for thier families,you are foolish.Thats disgusting and no people should be subjected to this type of unjust behavior.


And its insane to think that someone should get over the fact that discrimination is rampant in american society.When america is no longer a place where a criminal of one race has more oppratunities than a law abider of another,or when the law applies sentences equally to all races,prehaps then we can ''get over it''.Its not ok to just do that to human beings.That wicked,irrational and flawed mindstate will be the descruction of the United States.

Much more than 10% of the black community is unemployed.If you honestly think that 90% of black people are employed,then you are edited to remove belittling attack not living in reality.

Any sane person would recognize that rampant discrimination is the main reason for unemployment in the black community.I highly doubt that you even read the articles that I posted.

So, the only way you will believe that AA has ever had any effect is if someone proves the impossible for you?

You know very well it is impossible to 'prove conclusively' the exact effect things like increased admission to university, increased job prospects, inclreased hiring, have on the 'socio-economic status of an entire racial group.

You can show trends, demonstrate improvement, but apparently you would only be happy if someone could list you the exact dollar figure that AA has caused the socio-economic status of blacks to improve by over 25 years. You know very well thats an impossibility.

But why not address what I said? Serious, tangible evidence of the benefits of AA, I listed half a dozen. Why sidestep and ignore solid evidence such as that and instead call for an impossible standard of proof before you are willing to concede what the rest of the planet takes as obvious?

Forget the argument about the effect or need of AA now, thats a different argument, You stated unequivocally that there is "No evidence that Affirmative Action has ever been effective". Well, in fact there is great flipping wodges of evidence, perhaps you should either address that, or retract your statement?



There are some problems with the article you quoted.

-Firstly, an editorial on FoxNews is hardly a valid source.
-Secondly, the article is riddled with basic factual errors, such as the statement that only 20%-30% of American colleges and universities get more applications then they have places. In fact 100% of American colleges and Universities get more applications than they have places. Even a BASIC knowledge of academia will tell you that.
-Thirdly, and most importantly, at NO POINT in the article does it claim what you say it does.



There are some problems with the article you quoted.

-Firstly, at NO POINT in the article does it claim what you say it does. (again)
-The article does however state the following:

"An example of the policiy succeeding is the improvement of schooling for minorities. From 1960 to 1995, the percentage of blacks ages 25-29 who graduated from college rose from 5.4 percent to 15.4 percent. A survey performed in 1993 of 718 primary-care physicians from 51 California communities found a direct relation between the ethnic or race group and the physicians who served them. Increases in African-American and Hispanic physicians have paralleled a proportional rise in the quality of health care received in communities with higher concentrations of those minorities. "

I'm sorry, were you not just claiming there was no evidence that Affirmative action has ever had any effect? Did you not also just claim that AA does not result in an increase in blacks graduating from college?

May I ask why you then quoted an article that completely disagrees with you on both of your points, and provides specific examples completely dismissing your argument?

So I still don't understand why this will be fixed by giving money to people that have never even seen slaves or slave owners.



Sounds exactly like blaming he mentioned...



I think he's pretty accurate. Who are the black role models? I just see rappers, sports players, and Al Sharpton, who continually blames whites. There is racism, where you blame whites for things that couldn't be anything but choice. YOU ARE BLAMING WHITE PEOPLE FOR FORCING BLACKS INTO DRUG DEALING!!! First, this is unwarranted, and you are still trying to blame other people for poor decisions, second, you are PERPETUATING racism by saying that white people cause problems, and third, you are EXCUSING criminals from their actions, and fourth, even if your arguments are true, can white people blame black people for a hurtful culture if the Bloods beat a guy to become a quadripulegic so he's forced to deal drugs to live? No, "RACISM!" Al Sharpton would probably declare. "The Bloods probably had a reason for crippling him, he was probably wearing blue." Mase would likely say. Snoop would jump in, supporting his Crips. There are the role models black teens see. There are many black kids in my school, not near the majority, but I'd say that non-whites are about 25% of students. I take four Enriched/AP classes of six total, and in those four I have one non-white classmate. In the other two (Spanish and Health), there is one in Spanish (same person who is in one of the Enriched classes, and in Health there are five. Clearly there isn't eagerness within black culture to go to Enriched classes.



I agree that black's blaming of whites should stop.



I'm pretty sane, but I don't see non-whites TRYING to achieve in my school, and it isn't because the white administrators are oppressing them. I'll guess that lazy kids=lazy adults.

And I really think that you should link to a better source as well. I'd say your source is nearing in validity to The Onion.

So I still don't understand why this will be fixed by giving money to people that have never even seen slaves or slave owners.


So in other words you think that rampant discrimination,and the robbing of the black community of trillions of dollars is not wrong?You think its ok for 50% of black men to be without jobs?You think that its ok that white criminals have better chances than black people with no record who follow your laws?I


Sounds exactly like blaming he mentioned...

It sounds exactly like the truth.Youre just a racist who thinks its ok for blacks to get treated with second class status.The facts are out there,you just ignore them because it fits your sick,twisted little view of america being ''pure and innocent'' like the color white means on your flag.Thats pure garbage,the USA has been responsable for the genocide and torture of millions.Your constitution,bill of rights and laws are phoney.It was created by racist,evil men.IT is illegal for race to be used on the basis of hiring so why isnt that law being enforced?

[ YOU ARE BLAMING WHITE PEOPLE FOR FORCING BLACKS INTO DRUG DEALING!!!


Rampant discrimination forces people to break your laws in order to survive.If you filled out applicatin after application with no results,what would you do?
.First of all I choose my own leaders,so all this Al Sharpton .(typical of right wing,conservative,patriotic american racists) crap is irrelevent.Stating the truth(racism is rampant and its sick) is not PERPETUATING anything but the TRUTH!


I agree that black's blaming of whites should stop.

I agree that whites ignorance,discrimination,and disregard for human rights should stop.

I'm pretty sane, but I don't see non-whites TRYING to achieve in my school, and it isn't because the white administrators are oppressing them. I'll guess that lazy kids=lazy adults.

I for one always scored high in school.I graduated in the top ten percent of all high school students in the USA from highschool,and kept a 3.0 and abose GPA in college.But when I walk in for a job interview,that doesnt matter to the many,many racist employers in America.Companies,banks and families have directly benefited from the USAs slavery and discrimination and you mean to tell me that today its ok for those very same companies to discriminate against blacks?Discrimination does not equal laziness,thats a lame excuss you racists use to ignore the fact that you screw over people.Thats sick.

And I really think that you should link to a better source as well. I'd say your source is nearing in validity to [url=http://www.theonion.com/content/]The Onion

The sources I used were accurate.Its common knowledge that the USA is insanely racist.The only people who ignore it are racists.All Americans should recieve the same treatment.

I don't think it's right at all...if it had happened. They weren't robbed at all. They engaged in a common practice AT THAT TIME, and although I don't condone it at all, I don't think that people who are so PC we have to spell woman "womyn" and protest for black rights, ended segregation, etc. should be punished for something stupid ancestors did. EVEN IF your argument about robbing is true, it isn't trillions, it's likely not over $50,000,000 in wages because people were paid in pennies then (someone provide a link for this? I'll link later if you care).



Hmm, if you hate America's beliefs, one of which includes free speech and is upheld by this "phoney" Bill of Rights, then you are practically contradicting yourself by participating on this website. See you in Utopia!

I'm sorry, even if you say that America is racist 20 times (which I'm sure you have by now) I won't really believe you unless you show me proof that the majority of whites are in the KKK or something. And if the government and Bill of Rights/Constitution/Laws are all dumb/racist/"phoney", then why do minorities have ANY rights?

And sorry, I'm not racist.



Again, you assert that America is racist. I still don't see any polls advocating KKK funding. Please, if America is SO racist, these polls should be all over on that website you link. And I'm sure that there wouldn't be ANY black government officials.

And yeah, you still haven't really addressed the core argument saying that you are blaming white people for all problems in black culture.



Still, assertation.



Just because you worked hard, does that mean teen black culture as a whole works hard? Ok, what job did you apply for? Was there requirements for that job that you didnt' fulfill? How did you present yourself? Were there competitors? If there was should you automatically be chosen because you are black? What if the competitors' credentials are better? Should you still win although you aren't the best? You are expecting that your skin color will win you jobs, regardless if a higher qualified white person applies as well, as if it's an extra credential? Please, tell me how this ISN'T racism: expecting priority over race A because you are of race B. The fact that you made your screenname blackgentleman shows that you feel that your arguments are supposed to carry the MOST weight in a race debate because you are black.



1. Several people have linked to SEVERAL different sites proving you wrong, and you were even showed to be lying about the US Labor stats. You continue to cite one source, although it has been undermined by each of these sites, one coming from an African-American directed source.
2. You continue to assert that America is racist, however PC is becoming SO PC it's embarrassing, human/civil rights continue upwards, blacks don't have any different rights than whites, there is Affirmative Action, debate about whether we should give blacks money for something we didn't do and they didn't experience, and your only evidence is from a bad job application process. I can confidentely reassure you that, first, you could've been beat by someone with better credentials, second, not been qualified at all, or third, if you asserted the same ad hominems you have written here yesterday, no employer would hire you.


I will be quite angry if you don't respond to my post with the same care and time that it took me to write this post. I will be even more so if I ascertain that you didn't read it at all. Please, please, please don't respond with more assertations from the same source, and please use the quote code to quote me, because it's very confusing to read your posts. You can PM me if you wish to learn how. Finally, please read all of my arguments, and respond to each. If you cut a sentence out-of-context like you did in your post, I don't think that you are worth debating if you quote them as such. Thank you.

QUOTE

I don't think it's right at all...if it had happened. They weren't robbed at all. They engaged in a common practice AT THAT TIME, and although I don't condone it at all, I don't think that people who are so PC we have to spell woman "womyn" and protest for black rights, ended segregation, etc. should be punished for something stupid ancestors did. EVEN IF your argument about robbing is true, it isn't trillions, it's likely not over $50,000,000 in wages because people were paid in pennies then (someone provide a link for this? I'll link later if you care).

They(we) were indeed robbed.Just because it was ''common practice'' does not mean that it was wrong.Its always wrong to hold human beings as your personal property.Thats sick.And it was trillions of dollars.......Millions of people worked thier entire lifetimes without a single penny of compensation.
[b]
Hmm, if you hate America's beliefs, one of which includes free speech and is upheld by this "phoney" Bill of Rights, then you are practically contradicting yourself by participating on this website. See you in Utopia!

America is phoney.The bill of rights are a sham,and they were written by racist lunatics.The flag is phoney,the constitution,all of it is bullcrap.The meaning of the colors on the US flag are White: Signifies purity and innocence
Red: Signifies valor and bravery
Blue: Signifies Vigilance, perseverance, and justice

only a nutcase would think that the US really upholds these concepts.The US allowed slavery,and the genocide of native americans along with many other crimes against humanity.How could it ever be ''pure or innocent''?

And as far as justice.....blacks and native americans have NOT recieced justice in the US.So once again,that makes america fake.It does not extend its rights to all of its citizens.For instance the civil rights laws make it illegal for employers to use race as a factor in hiring,but its happening everyday in america and the law is not being enforced.White felons have a better chance of getting a job than a black man with no criminal record,the same work qualifications,and good presentation.Why isnt that law being enforced?simple,because america doesnt care if blacks suffer.

I'm sorry, even if you say that America is racist 20 times (which I'm sure you have by now) I won't really believe you unless you show me proof that the majority of whites are in the KKK or something. And if the government and Bill of Rights/Constitution/Laws are all dumb/racist/"phoney", then why do minorities have ANY rights?

You dont have to in the KKK to be racist.The united states has always been a white supremicist society and if you didnt know that,youre just not in touch with reality.




Again, you assert that America is racist. I still don't see any polls advocating KKK funding. Please, if America is SO racist, these polls should be all over on that website you link. And I'm sure that there wouldn't be ANY black government officials.

The everyday white person who decides that he will give such and such a promotion because hes white is RACIST.The everyday white person who decides that he will not hire any blackmen is RACIST.The judge that will give a black man more time for a crime than a white man who commited the EXACT same offense is a RACIST.You dont have to be in the KKK to be racist.Besides,americas heros and founders (George washington washgton,Thomas Jefferson,etc) were all nutcase racists anyway,so in effect,the USA ITSELF is a white supremicist group.If it wasnt,it would regard these animals as the sick lunatics they were instead of celebrating them and posting thier faces everywhere.


And yeah, you still haven't really addressed the core argument saying that you are blaming white people for all problems in black culture.

Because white america,through hundreds of years of expolitation,lying,cheating and oppression ARE part of the reason for the problems in ''Black americas culture''White americas culture-only we matter and screw everyone else- is the main culprit.

[B]Just because you worked hard, does that mean teen black culture as a whole works hard? Ok, what job did you apply for? Was there requirements for that job that you didnt' fulfill? How did you present yourself? Were there competitors? If there was should you automatically be chosen because you are black? What if the competitors' credentials are better? Should you still win although you aren't the best? You are expecting that your skin color will win you jobs, regardless if a higher qualified white person applies as well, as if it's an extra credential? Please, tell me how this ISN'T racism: expecting priority over race A because you are of race B. The fact that you made your screenname [b]blackgentleman shows that you feel that your arguments are supposed to carry the MOST weight in a race debate because you are black.[/B]

And just because some of your classmates are lazy,does that mean black teen culture as a whole is lazy?And me naming myself blackgentleman doesnt mean anything except that I liked the name.As for your other babbling,obviously you did not read the article I posted.I will post it here then.





1. Several people have linked to SEVERAL different sites proving you wrong, and you were even showed to be lying about the US Labor stats. You continue to cite one source, although it has been undermined by each of these sites, one coming from an African-American directed source.
2. You continue to assert that America is racist, however PC is becoming SO PC it's embarrassing, human/civil rights continue upwards, blacks don't have any different rights than whites, there is Affirmative Action, debate about whether we should give blacks money for something we didn't do and they didn't experience, and your only evidence is from a bad job application process. I can confidentely reassure you that, first, you could've been beat by someone with better credentials, second, not been qualified at all, or third, if you asserted the same ad hominems you have written here yesterday, no employer would hire you.


1.They didnt prove me wrong.It was right because they say it is?honestly there is something fishy about the unemployment stats......It wouldnt surprise me if that 10% crap was intentionaly put out there as a lie.I dont care what site you get it from,I know for a fact that more than 10% of blacks are unemployed.If 90% of us had jobs then almost 50% of our children wouldnt be born into poverty.And black men would not fill up the prisons for mostly non violent drug offenses.Nearly 50% of black men are jobless....I know thats a fact here in my city(59%),and its like that all accross the nation.I have seen other stats that say only 18% of black men are unemployed in Milwaukee.I know for a FACT that is a complete and total lie,just like that 10%.Maybe this is why...



http://lists.econ.utah.edu/pipermail/marxi...uly/011056.html



2.The United States as an entity and a country did those nasties and continues to do so.So the United States should pay.

And btw people dont usually get into political and social arguements when they apply for a job.I assure you its not my assertion of anything that made it so hard for me to find a job...its my skin color.

Edited to remove copyrighted article that had been pasted in full.

[quote=blackgentleman,Dec 14 2005, 01:14 PM]
[b][quote]
America is phoney.The bill of rights are a sham,and they were written by racist lunatics.The flag is phoney,the constitution,all of it is bullcrap.The meaning of the colors on the US flag are White: Signifies purity and innocence
Red: Signifies valor and bravery
Blue: Signifies Vigilance, perseverance, and justice

only a nutcase would think that the US really upholds these concepts.The US allowed slavery,and the genocide of native americans along with many other crimes against humanity.How could it ever be ''pure or innocent''?

And as far as justice.....blacks and native americans have NOT recieced justice in the US.So once again,that makes america fake.It does not extend its rights to all of its citizens.For instance the civil rights laws make it illegal for employers to use race as a factor in hiring,but its happening everyday in america and the law is not being enforced.White felons have a better chance of getting a job than a black man with no criminal record,the same work qualifications,and good presentation.Why isnt that law being enforced?simple,because america doesnt care if blacks suffer.

[/quote]My that was a lengthy diatribe.

First off, if you truly despise America and what it stands for, there is nobody stopping you from finding a home that will be sure to welcome you.

Second, I would say that most 'white people' in America for any length of time have had a mixed heritage. The chances of being 'pure white' are remote at best.

Third, my family has never ever owed a single slave. We have been in America for a very long time. In fact my family moved to California in 1832 from Indiana. Neither of those states ever had slavery. Does that mean that I 'owe' anybody anything at all? I don't think so.

As for getting jobs, there sure are a lot of variables. I know when I lived in California I couldn't get a job for over a year. Though I have a degree in computer programming, why because there were over 1 million IT types looking for work. Here in Ohio, the last time I looked for work I was unemployed for 15 minutes. Different time, different place, different circumstances.

Wow. This debate is producing a lot of heat.

blackgentleman, I hope I won't sound too condescending when I ask you, if you hate America so much ... well, there IS a plane or boat leaving every hour, right?

Also, it seems to me that your skin color isn't the problem on a job interview ... it's your attitude, partner.