Full Version: Should all voting machines be made in China?
It is well known that all the manufacturers of the electronic counting and voting machines in the US are partisan types. 80% alone by two companies ES&S and Diebold. http://www.thefreespeechzone.net/diebold.html
I am an Engineer and a product like a vote counter or a voting machine are well within my expertise to design and manufacture. I have been VP of Engineering as well as Director of R&D of companies. I can tell you that it is impossible to catch me if I so decided to make a machine cheat. There is virtually no test that could catch me. It is as simple as this just one chip (IC) could have code on it that either has a back door, or can take over the system when I predetermined it to take action. The only way to even try is to take every unit apart after the election and take every chip out and start taking layers apart, at great costs tens of thousands of dollars per machine. Even this would not prove what is needed. Only exit polls would be able to indicate there is a problem.
As we know Diebold makes ATM machines that are bullet proof, how often is even a dollar off is not found. These ATM machines are much more difficult to manufacture… dispensing of money is very difficult from a manufacturing reliability stand point. They have error rates that are so low and if they didn't that would be the end of ATM machines. So are these 8 to 10 to 12 sigma in reliability? If they can do this one has no reason to believe they if they wanted to could not have an almost perfect election with their machines that thieves and hackers could not touch. But we know as a fact these machines can be hacked very easily, we know we had errors of 4000 votes and other places that if this was an ATM there would major investigations and it would be fixed. But it is not fixed so with reasoning there must be a reason it is not being done because the technology is there.
Here are my questions to debate:
Is it appropriate for the manufacture of voting machines to be contracted out to partisan sources or is there a way to insure neutrality in the manufacturing of voting machines?
Would you trust any foreign society to design and manufacture these machines?
QUOTE
* The largest investors in ES&S, Sequoia (another voting machine company), and Diebold are government defense contractors Northrup-Grumman, Lockheed-Martin, Electronic Data Systems (EDS) and Accenture. Diebold hired Scientific Applications International Corporation (SAIC) of San Diego to develop the software security in their voting machines. A majority of officials on SAIC's board are former members of either the Pentagon or the CIA including:
- Army Gen. Wayne Downing, formerly of the NSC
- Bobby Ray Inman; former CIA Director
- Retired Adm. William Owens, former vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
- Robert Gates, another former director of the CIA.
- Army Gen. Wayne Downing, formerly of the NSC
- Bobby Ray Inman; former CIA Director
- Retired Adm. William Owens, former vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
- Robert Gates, another former director of the CIA.
I am an Engineer and a product like a vote counter or a voting machine are well within my expertise to design and manufacture. I have been VP of Engineering as well as Director of R&D of companies. I can tell you that it is impossible to catch me if I so decided to make a machine cheat. There is virtually no test that could catch me. It is as simple as this just one chip (IC) could have code on it that either has a back door, or can take over the system when I predetermined it to take action. The only way to even try is to take every unit apart after the election and take every chip out and start taking layers apart, at great costs tens of thousands of dollars per machine. Even this would not prove what is needed. Only exit polls would be able to indicate there is a problem.
As we know Diebold makes ATM machines that are bullet proof, how often is even a dollar off is not found. These ATM machines are much more difficult to manufacture… dispensing of money is very difficult from a manufacturing reliability stand point. They have error rates that are so low and if they didn't that would be the end of ATM machines. So are these 8 to 10 to 12 sigma in reliability? If they can do this one has no reason to believe they if they wanted to could not have an almost perfect election with their machines that thieves and hackers could not touch. But we know as a fact these machines can be hacked very easily, we know we had errors of 4000 votes and other places that if this was an ATM there would major investigations and it would be fixed. But it is not fixed so with reasoning there must be a reason it is not being done because the technology is there.
Here are my questions to debate:
Is it appropriate for the manufacture of voting machines to be contracted out to partisan sources or is there a way to insure neutrality in the manufacturing of voting machines?
Would you trust any foreign society to design and manufacture these machines?
Topic Reopened...
The questions for debate are:
Is it appropriate for the manufacture of voting machines to be contracted out to partisan sources or is there a way to insure neutrality in the manufacturing of voting machines?
Would you trust any foreign society to design and manufacture these machines?
Is it appropriate for the manufacture of voting machines to be contracted out to partisan sources or is there a way to insure neutrality in the manufacturing of voting machines?
Would you trust any foreign society to design and manufacture these machines?
No. It is not appropriate for partisan sources to make these types of voting machines because it is not appropriate to have voting machines that rely on microchips in the first place. What is wrong with a #2 pencil!? Any system can be cheated, but to cheat on the #2 there must be widespread human collusion as opposed to imperceptible individual interference.
Would you trust any foreign society to design and manufacture these machines?
No. It is not appropriate for partisan sources to make these types of voting machines because it is not appropriate to have voting machines that rely on microchips in the first place. What is wrong with a #2 pencil!? Any system can be cheated, but to cheat on the #2 there must be widespread human collusion as opposed to imperceptible individual interference.
Is it appropriate for the manufacture of voting machines to be contracted out to partisan sources or is there a way to insure neutrality in the manufacturing of voting machines?
No, this is completely inappropriate. However, it can be managed with proper protections that insure that the machines are secure. Unfortunately, no such protections exist.
Would you trust any foreign society to design and manufacture these machines?
This is a rhetorical question, not a real one. No, we wouldn't trust a foreign country and we shouldn't trust a private company, either. So we should remove the element of trust by insuring that the machines meet rigorous security standards.
No, this is completely inappropriate. However, it can be managed with proper protections that insure that the machines are secure. Unfortunately, no such protections exist.
Would you trust any foreign society to design and manufacture these machines?
This is a rhetorical question, not a real one. No, we wouldn't trust a foreign country and we shouldn't trust a private company, either. So we should remove the element of trust by insuring that the machines meet rigorous security standards.
QUOTE(Erasmussimo @ Aug 4 2005, 04:42 PM)
[b]Would you trust any foreign society to design and manufacture these machines?
This is a rhetorical question, not a real one. No, we wouldn't trust a foreign country and we shouldn't trust a private company, either. So we should remove the element of trust by insuring that the machines meet rigorous security standards.
It was not meant to be rhetorical, it was meant to make any debaters that would say yes to the first question to have a well thought out debate before getting into it.
It appears that either the ones to the right of me do not have the time to back up a good debate to the opposite. In another board I have not found anyone even to the far right that believes countries like China or Iran should ever make our voting machines. Thus I see so far no one here would trust the foreign entities to make our voting machines.
So I conclude the absence of anyone who can post a good reason to trust a foreign entity, exact same opportunities to cheat in the elections are available to whomever makes the machines/counters domestically. So I conclude at a minimum it should not be manufactured by the Ohio head of the Bush for president.
To me it is amazing the avoidance of this issue by the right, in the fact that the foundation of a democracy is a fair election. Without it we really do not have a democracy here do we? And a fair election does not include cornering of the market on the ability to cheat and no willingness to testify or turn over all documents under oath for anything and everything related to potential fraud. Or for that matter to do anything to fix the situation, where is the committee to fix it. Gee the right owns all branches of government…
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