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turnea

Aug 7 2005, 07:21 PM

I'm sure this is not the first time we've heard stories like this.

QUOTE

At first I thought it was some sort of domestic. It's hard to think back, everything happened in slow motion, but I think other people thought the same thing. I was on the lower deck of the number 43 bus on the Holloway Road at about 10pm when I heard a woman shouting, sort of screaming, saying, "Oh my God, what's he doing? Make him stop, make him stop."[...]

Then a man came down and said to the driver: "You need to stop the bus, you need to stop the bus, there's someone being attacked." Then he got off the bus and disappeared. I don't know whether he has ever come forward to make a statement to the police.

At some point, the woman who had been screaming had come down the stairs. We found out later that she was the victim's girlfriend. White-faced, eyes like saucers, she was saying: "Did you see him? Did you see him? He stabbed him." She got off the bus, obviously in severe shock.

Then a couple of moments later the victim came down. He had blood on his shirt - not lots of it - but he was saying, "Look, he stabbed me, he stabbed me." [...]

But as soon as he sat down he started to go a bit floppy. I kept looking round expecting other people to engage with him as well, but no one did. I was trying to call 999 on my phone, and I think he sat on one of the fold-down seats in the centre of the bus. He started to breathe a bit heavily. I wanted him to lie down because obviously he was wounded. Things started to happen quickly. I was calling 999 and trying to get him lying down at the same time. He was quite a big guy, not huge but an adult man, much bigger than me, and at that point I couldn't physically do both things at once, so I called out, "Can someone help me? Can someone help me?" Nothing happened. No one made eye contact. I couldn't quite believe it.[...]

<snip>

Of all the people who were on the bus, all of us potential witnesses in a murder trial, only five passengers, plus the driver, went to the police station to make statements. While we were there, at about 2am, one of the policemen said: "I'm sorry to have to tell you this, but he died." I was in floods of tears. None of us expected that. I learned later that the man's name was Richard Whelan, that he was 28 and that the incident that ended in his death started with a man throwing chips at his girlfriend.

I kept saying, "Help me, help me." But no one did

So in brief, a man was fatally stabbed on a crowded bus London bus recently and only a couple young women actually bothered to either help the man as he lay dying or even stay to file a police report.

The murderer was allowed to walk of the bus unmolested.

We often have debates over interventionism on the global scale, but I don't remember a debate over it's individual scale counterpart so here we go.

Should the passengers who witnessed the stabbing have made an effort to detain he murderer?

Should the passengers have made attempt to aid the dying man?

Why do you think the different passengers and even the driver react the way they did?

Do you think the scene would be similar on any bus in the Western world?

What would you do in a similar situation?

Do we have a moral obligation to help other individuals when we can?

Edited to conform cited material to forum Rules - no more than 6 paragraphs total, please. -Jaime

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SuzySteamboat

Aug 7 2005, 08:11 PM

Should the passengers who witnessed the stabbing have made an effort to detain he murderer?

I'm torn about this. Theoretically, I'd say yes, but honestly how many people are willing to get up-close and personal to a knife-wielding maniac to stop him? Self-preservation takes over and all you want to do is stay the hell away. Certain personality types, I think - mainly people braver/more empathetic than your average Jane/Joe would probably step in regardless, but should we expect the guy with a wife and two kids to support to risk his life in that situation? Also, I think if the person being stabbed were 1) very young, 2) very old, or 3) a female, the chances of someone intervening probably would have been much higher. I don't know why. Maybe people just think males are better able to take care of and defend themselves. Taking a step back from the situation, I think it should default to the people best able to handle that kind of thing - strong, healthy males. I hate to sound sexist but I hardly think a young woman or grampa is best equipped to handle a male attacker with a weapon. Unless they have pepper spray or something...

I think all of them have the ability to call the police, though, so that responsibility lies on all of them. Once one person does it, of course, there's no need for everyone to call but they all have the ability to call for help. There's no excuse for that not happening.

And the bus driver I'm also torn about. You don't want to lock a crazy armed guy on your bus where he can hurt everyone, so I think the proper course of action would be to let him off and call the cops with his location.

Should the passengers have made attempt to aid the dying man?

Of course. Those who don't know how to help should have stepped back, and anyone with the knowledge should have come forward. There's no excuse for that. They were no longer in mortal danger at that point from the attacker. You don't just stand around while a guy is dying, geez.

Why do you think the different passengers and even the driver react the way they did?

The universal "don't want to get involved" and "it would inconvience me" copouts. The same reasons why people don't get involved with neighbors' domestic disputes, or why people wait so long to report child/animal abuse. Essentially, I guess it boils down to selfishness, self-preservation, and a lack of empathy for those in need. There's also people who simply don't know what to do, but here in America even when we don't know what to do we still get the damn phones out and dial 911, even if we personally don't know how to assist in the situation.

Do you think the scene would be similar on any bus in the Western world?

It depends on the circumstances of the situation and the victim, I think. Like I stated earlier, I think the odds of a young/old/female victim receiving assistance are greater than a healthy young male, and it also depends on where the attack happens and if the attacker is still around. I do know that it in America, we still use the same old copouts and excuses for not getting involved, though, but I'd like to think someone would have had the sense to at least dial 911 - you know, before the person died.

What would you do in a similar situation?

I'd default it to bigger, stronger people to handle the attacker, and if no one had called 911 I would have done so. And then I'd step back because I would really have no idea what to do. If there was something obvious I could do - trying to stop extreme blood loss - I would try to do that the best I knew how but I don't know first aid nor CPR.

Do we have a moral obligation to help other individuals when we can?

Well, it depends on the context of "help." You could take that so many different ways - do we have a "moral" obligation to give the homeless man we pass everyday our loose change? But in the context of helping an individual get out of immediate danger, yes I most certainly do believe we have an obligation. I'm also pretty sure there are laws that deal with this kind of issue, though I don't really remember which. The closest thing that comes to mind are the Good Samaritan laws, but that really doesn't deal with if a person is obligated to help, just that they can't be sued if they volunteer to.

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