I wasn't sure which topic to put this under, but I finally chose Domestic Policy: a: for better recognition and response and b: because a decision on this matter is ultimately a matter of domestic policy.

My questions are these:

Do you feel that black people are deserving of some sort of reparation for the enslavement of their ancestors?

If so, in what form should these reparations be made? If monetary, how much is fair?

Also, who should receive these reparations, if anybody? What criteria should be used, and how extensive should these criteria be?

I don't doubt that there will be some very lengthy responses, as I have asked a mouthful.

Now, I will respond to my own questions...

I don't feel that black people should receive reparation, but it's not necessarily because they aren't deserving. Nobody can deny the crimes of the past, but it is debatable what affect they have on people today. In my opinion, nobody is bound to their ancestors to the extent that they cannot succeed in their own life. Besides, how could you place a monetary value on this grievance, even if it were well-founded? It is my view that this is just another example of someone trying to take advantage of a bad situation, past or present. It is another painstaking look at what society has become, one where people will drop a lawsuit as soon as their hat, just to make a quick (and often hefty) buck. Another look at this: consider what would have become had there never been African slavery? The lifestyle enjoyed in America today by descendents of slaves would never have been realized, despite the length of time it took for equal rights. Therefore, I see equality as the ultimate reparation, simply because living in America is such a blessing and a privilege in itself.

Also, even if reparations were in order, how could you decide who would receive them? There would be chaos, with people claiming that they deserve more because of this, that, or the other. There could be no flat amount, and nobody would ever be satisfied. Besides, who's gonna pay for all this? The government, right? But who funds the government, eh?

That having been said, Happy Black History Month!
BTW, I mean this.

CTE- We've tried this discussion before and had to close it due to some of the racist comments permeated the thread last time.

I appreciate you starting this discussion anew in such a respectful tone. I hope it sets an example by which others reply.

Yes, hopefully those kind of comments have Faded away!!!

From Opinions.....Wis State Journal...

What kind of reparations are you talking about? If it's as simple as a heartfelt apology from the U.S. government, that's one thing. But if you're talking about money, it starts to get complicated - such as, who pays?

If the money comes from taxes (and where else are you going to get it?), then shouldn't only white taxpayers have to pony up? Otherwise, black taxpayers will end up paying reparations to themselves.

But wait a minute: What about Hispanic taxpayers? They've been discriminated against, too. Should they have to pay?

And what about white taxpayers whose ancestors didn't come to the United States until after slavery ended? OK, maybe they benefited from the ensuing century of segregation, but shouldn't they get a reduced rate or something?

And what about white taxpayers whose ancestors fought to end slavery? Shouldn't they get a break, too - maybe even a pass if their ancestors were among the 360,000 Union soldiers who died fighting the Civil War?

And what about descendants of the blacks who owned slaves? According to the U.S. Census of 1830, there were 3,775 free blacks who owned 12,740 slaves. Shouldn't we track them down and make them pay, too?

Madtown

Hey, I like this reparation for past wrongs idea. Don't knock it. My Great uncle was interred during World War II in a prison camp in California because he was JAPANESE. Nevermind that he was an American citizen. Since he spoke very little English and had naturalized only several years before WWII, he was shipped to CA and imprisoned. Do I get any of this reparation money? I mean, if the good ol' U.S.A. is doling out moolah to people for wrongs done to their ancestors, don't I get some? Heck, I wonder where Native Americans fit in? We owe them big time don't we?

I wonder how far this goes? I mean, if it's a viable idea on something this big, it should work for something smaller right? My father was beaten hideously by some thugs when he was a kid. If people are guilty and accountable for making reparations for wrongs done to other's ancestors, can't I still sue these thugs children for wrongs committed against my father?

Where does accountability end?

I think the people who commit the wrong should pay for the wrong. If they have passed on, they are now accountable to GOD.

THERE'S WHERE THE PAYBACK IS.

The posts by Madtown and LFTHNDTHRDS prove my point exactly...there's no end to the line of people who would say that they deserve something and to the line of people saying that they don't deserve to pay. It's impossible to ever do!

I agree with Madtowns points.
I have argued the same myself to friends, family, etc..

But what has struck me as odd, is that I have not heard any coherent, logical (or feasible) plan form the pro-reparations side.
A lot of ideas thrown out, but no solid consensus.

Does anyone know if there is a single plan backed by groups like the NAACP and others that could be debated?

Put simply, I don't believe in this 'Sins of the Father' crap. Let's use the past to help us fix the here and now, not as yet another scam off-shoot of blame culture.

AMEN!!!

--cheers

The list of ethnic groups are endless -- all immigration waves were exposed to terrible discrimination.

Now that we've established that this can't fairly be accomplished, how can we stop the government from trying such a thing?

I am ashamed of the fact that slavery ever existed. Not just as an American, but as a member of the human race. Slavery is representative of the worst of human nature and should never have come to be. Having said that, I feel that the blacks of modern America are not deserving of reparations of any kind. Even though I am in favor of the redistribution of wealth, I feel that a citizen receiving monetary compensation for the burdens of their ancestors is ridiculous. For sake of argument, let's say that reparations were to be made to the American blacks of today. Fine. Now, as a white American of German/Irish descent, I want reparations from #1 the Italians for its centuries of slaughtering the people of the several Germanic tribes of Europe, and #2 the English for stealing a quarter of Ireland and murdering thousands upon thousands of its inhabitants. In reality, this desire for reparations would be dismissed as silly and irrelevant. That is exactly the case when it comes to reparations for today's blacks, silly and irrelevant.

well, i guess you should ask yourself why a majority of them live in ghettos. After slavery ended they still did not have any place in america. I think this has a very large impact on such situations as you see today. But how it should be gone about is something i have no clue on.

While I agree with all the other posters that reparations for offences carried out against ones ancestors is, in simple terms, a daft idea (and being British, I don't want to have to pay for the trillions more we'd owe than America, being a much older country), I would challenge this point that you made - particularly that "the lifestyle enjoyed in America today by descendents of slaves would never have been realized"

If there had never been African slavery in the Americas, surely any modern African-Americans would be as likely to be prosperous as any other type of American (Italian, Korean, Scotch-Irish, whatever)?

Or do you contend that modern American prosperity would not have come to exist without slavery? (In which case, perhaps those in favour of reparations have a stronger case than appears at first glance.)

We can start by making sure not to elect the dems who continue to this day to treat blacks as virtual slaves.

If you don't think affirmative action and fighting welfare reform and refusing to fix the biggest problem of all, public education, are just a not-so-cleverly-disguised way of 'keeping them in their place' then you too have fallen for their ruse.

If you really want to make amends, then take on the public school system and its masters, the teacher's unions, and fix the dang thing! Quit papering over the root of the problem by tossing freebies at the college level, only to see the 'winners' fail to keep pace with those more qualified to be there in the first place.

These 'end-game' programs fix nothing. Nada!

I'm not for reparations. It really isn't practical. I am for affirmitive action. How does giving minorities a chance to have more college graduates to be role models hurt the black community. I don't see Harold Ford and Bill Clinton planning to hurt the black community. Today in America it is a fact that is less likely that a black person will go to college then a white person. This is only because of a culture which can only be corrected by giving some blacks a chance to overcome these cultural barriers. If you give people education you can't possibly want them as slaves.

[QUOTE]

"Giving" a college education is precisely the problem. If you really want to help blacks achieve parity then you must fix the public schools. This is the only way to provide the tools needed to be successful.

There are many blacks who understand this completely, but when they speak out they are 'Uncle Tommed' to death.

For a long time I have distrusted the motives of liberals who always want to 'give' rather than help someone to 'earn'. There is no better way to keep someone down than to keep them dependent....on you. And when you examine how the dems look on the black vote as one huge 'bloc' that is indebted to them it shows this strategy is still working.

Take Clarence Thomas as an example. The liberals could not allow a black to rise up, on his own merit, without owing an allegiance to the democratic party. That's why they fought his nomination so hard. Same with Miguel Estrada today. The 'slavemasters' can not afford to allow the 'slaves' rise up and shed their chains.

This hypocrisy is being chipped away at though. More and more minorities are finding a way to be heard when they oppose the liberals who only want to keep them in their place.

Blacks vote overwhelmingly for the democratic party not because the democratic party has cooked up a new form of slavery but because it tends to be more favorable to the interests of the vast majority of the African American population. While I see your point about improving our society so that nothing would not to be given to the qualified applicant to g to college, equality of opportunity is the goal of most supporters of affirmative action, not a new type of sharecropper arrangement that contains the African American vote.

On topic though as I catch myself drifting horribly, is the fact that I believe reparations is unnecessary. I especially like the idea that Madtown introduced on this thread that it is not fair to take many out of the general till to pay for the ills of slavery. Far too many taxpayers had no ancestors (even if that were a fair consideration to call for damages) that participated in slavery directly or indirectly.

Punishing the government for having a constitution that allowed slavery is not fair either. Because the constitution did not mandate slavery. It simply embodied a society that contained slavery without defending it or justifying it.

Who said anything about GIVING an education? Affirmative Action gives minorities a CHANCE for an education. I think education goes a long way towards allowing the 'slaves' to rise up and shed their chains.

It's not the Democrats who are the "slave masters."

Madtown

The topic of this thread is "reparations for slavery." I realize that affirmative action will be discussed in relation to reparations, but let's try not to debate the details of affirmative action in this thread. We have a thread going on this topic as it relates to college education, here:

Race Based Acceptance in College

Since the other affirmative action threads that discuss the topic outside of education have been closed and a reasonable amount of time has passed, please feel free to start a new one to discuss that topic.

[QUOTE]
DO the majority of blacks live in ghettos? I find that hard to believe.

I just don't see the practicality or feasibility of any program centered around a "sins of the father" premise. I would no more want to pay for a mistake my great-great grandfather made than I would want to seek payment from another person for the mistakes of their great-great grandfather.

The actions of our ancestors may serve to shape the world we live in and the structure of our families, but in many cases (especially after centuries have gone by) the descendants share little to none of the same ideals as their ancestors. To expect somebody to pay for the crimes of a person they never knew, or had any relation other than biology to would be a grave injustice at best, mind boggling at worst.

This doesn't even take into account the potential snowball effect of such a principle, which has already been given it's proper attention in this thread.

Haven't spent much time in America, have you? The majority of blacks in this country don't live in ghettos -- unless you want to define all mostly black neighborhoods no matter how prosperous, and all lower income neighborhoods no matter how integrated as ghettos. And even then I doubt it, because only inner-city blacks even live in mostly black neighborhoods, and it doesn't seem that could be a majority considering the number of blacks scattered through the 'burbs. I didn't look up any statistics on that, just my life experience as a very mixed-race American.

Now back to reparations ...

Considering that I'm half mixed minorities (black, Japanese, Amerind) and half white, would I be collecting or paying? What makes it even more confusing is most American blacks have some white ancestors also. I guess they'd all be both collecting and paying too, huh? I'm SO confused.