In the movie, As Good as it Gets, Jack Nicholson says to Helen Hunt, "You make me want to be a better man".
Science fiction writer Robert Heinlein says, "Women will forgive anything, otherwise the human race would have died out long ago" (not accurately quoted, but close).
Somewhere in between those 2 thoughts may be an answer to the problems that some of my bachelor friends have. I know 2 who have set impossibly high standards for a wife, and yet seem inflexible to changing themselves even a little.
Another seems to be a catch, great job, good looking, but I suspect he is too self centered and women probably see that as a less than desireable trait.

Questions for comment, if not debate:

For the women, but men can respond in kind, just how much can you forgive, or overlook, in a prospective mate? What can you absolutely NOT overlook?

For the men, but women can respond in kind, what does it take to make you want to become a better person? What about you will you NOT change in order to get that special mate?

Great Topic!!!

For the men, but women can respond in kind, what does it take to make you want to become a better man? What about you will you NOT change in order to get that special mate?

NOTHING made me what to be anything other then what I was. I just wanted to be me, with all my good and bad traits. Then I met my wife. She is a women who is FAR too good for me, but she doesn't seem to know this and I don't tell her.

She and later my Daughter, are the greatest motivators ever for me to become a better and better man. I slack off at times (like posting here on a day off rather then working on making my home nicer for them while they are away ), but I do make an effort to be a better man thanks to them. At it shows. I have long time friends who ask what my wife did that relaxed me so, made me a better conversationalist, etc.

I actively seek to understand where my wife is coming from when we disagree. More often then not, when I open my mind to her thinking, I end up discovering that she is right. And, when I come to the conclusion that she is not, I work hard at trying to relay what I am thinking / feeling to here without being antagonistic.

I actively seek to better understand my wife's needs. I faultier on this frequently. I tend to play computer games too often (Darn that addicting World of Warcraft!!! ), and I tend to get lost in political discussions for hours on end all too often. But, even with those faults, I am a 1000% better man then I ever was when I was single. The motivation for this change is making my family happy. I want my wife to enjoy, not endure, our relationship, and as a result, she responds in kind.

All too often I see single male friends of mine who seem to think that for them to marry a women, she will have to deal with them just as they are. Well guys, that is not how marriage works. If you want a workable marriage that lasts the rest of your life you need to be willing to compromise. Marriage is a team effort.

Also, I know MANY female friends who thought that once they married this or that guy, he would change, or she would make him a better man. Word of advice ladies. if you cannot get your guy to make the smallest change when single, what possible motivation will he have to make such changes when you're married? If he has traits you're not fond of, and he knows this, and yet makes no effort what-so-ever the minimize their effect on you, then you either need to walk away from the relationship, or accept the fact that he will likely always be that way. There are rare exceptions to this, but the reality is that no one will change unless THEY want to change.

Another thing I notice in married couples around me, is this idea that the woman is always right and the man is just plain wrong. Obviously, this is not ALL marriages or all women (no need for hate mail ), it is certainly not mine. But, for those women constantly complaining that their man is completely close minded when it comes to what she wants / needs, have you ever considered how open your mind is to his? The same is true for men / husbands.


My marriage works so well because:

A> My wife is a saint
B> we openly communicate our needs and concerns calmly.
C> we work as a team, seeking to resolve issues in a way that best suits us both
D> we are ALWAYS a united front when dealing with our daughter (the manipulator ).
E> When I faultier on B and C my wife does not kill me (Refer to A).

Very interesting topic, Bill.

I will answer the man question, being a male myself .

what does it take to make you want to become a better person? What about you will you NOT change in order to get that special mate?

I am going to make some very general statements about my perceptions of human interaction, take them for what they're worth...

Those who will change who they are for someone else is not doing themselves or their mate a favor, especially if the change is only cosmetic.

It is very difficult to change who we are. It cannot (and should not) be done easily. We are a complex summation of our own experience, our family interactions, and some "X" factor. Changing who we are takes more than simple willpower, it takes good influences as well (the experience part).

We naturally want to be more like those we love and admire. I've noticed that a group of friends will often come up with their own jargon that no one else really understands. This common experience makes them more like themselves and more likeable to each other.

Therefore, I try to improve myself by surrounding myself with people of high character. I distance myself from those who I consider to have fatal flaws. We all have imperfections, of course, but some are much worse than others.

What would I NOT change? That's a tough question.

I have core beliefs about self reliance and self sufficiency that I can not change about myself. I have a love of sports and games that I will not change. I have a love of debate that I dare not change....

Amlord says
I have core beliefs about self reliance and self sufficiency that I can not change about myself. I have a love of sports and games that I will not change. I have a love of debate that I dare not change....
I will post my answers later, but had to address your comment now. My experience is that you don't debate with your wife concerning some issues, you just agree and get out of the way. And concerning your love of sports, games, self reliance, etc., I suspect that for most women that those things are not important issues, unless you can remember the stats of every member of your favorite team and can't remember her birthday, your anniversary, etc.

This is a fun topic, Bill55

For the women, but men can respond in kind, just how much can you forgive, or overlook, in a prospective mate? What can you absolutely NOT overlook?

I can't really give a clear answer to this one. I have overlooked and forgiven things that, before meeting my husband, I would have sworn I would never, ever live with or forgive. In fact, I've forgiven and overlooked things within 5 minutes that would have driven me crazy before I met him. He's just right for me, and we click where it counts. I can't truly explain it. I could not overlook perpetual dishonesty, or abuse. But he would be a different person if that were the case and we wouldn't be together. I suppose if he didn't care about me I would have stopped caring for him, and then we would have driven each other crazy by now. It's a relationship based on mutual admiration, trust, and reciprocity.

I have a good friend who just married. We've known each other since the fifth grade. We even dated some of the same people in highschool. One of the male friends we kept in touch with is perfect on paper. We both dated him for a short time. This discussion came up when I last visited her a couple of weeks ago. He's smart (voted young engineer of the year for the state of Florida), good looking, has perfect manners, is very agreeable, truthful, basically no flaws I can think of. He just didn't do it for either of us. I've had ex-boyfriends that enraged me for the pettiest of reasons. I cannot make a list of any real flaws for some of them to this day... I was easily offended because I didn't love them. On the other hand, I could list a lot of "flaws" for my husband, but the important things are there, and we "click", so they really don't bother me much at all. Or, if they do, our communication is good enough, and we care enough about each other to come to an agreement or change the behavior. Besides...he'd be boring if he were too perfect.

And so would I!

For the women, but men can respond in kind, just how much can you forgive, or overlook, in a prospective mate? What can you absolutely NOT overlook?

I think if you are gonna be in a long term relationship you gotta be willing to compromise. The older you get, the more set in your ways you become, and the harder it is to commit to a long term relationship. Bill --maybe those two friends you know are just older and more set in their ways and therefore unwilling to compromise even the slightest bit in terms of their lifestyle.

Everyone has something that they absolutely cannot overlook. For me, I cannot tolerate someone who is not a hard worker, someone who thinks the world owes him a living-- basically a whiner, a selfish person.

For the men, but women can respond in kind, what does it take to make you want to become a better person? What about you will you NOT change in order to get that special mate?

I always want to try to be a better person-- just generally. I would never change anything specifically for someone else, because it wouldn't be a change motivated from within.

Great topic, Bill!

For the women, but men can respond in kind, just how much can you forgive, or overlook, in a prospective mate? What can you absolutely NOT overlook?

After my first marriage ended, I made a vow to do the following if I ever reached the stage of considering marriage again:

- Hole up at my favorite restaurant with a notepad and my favorite course.
- Divide the paper in 2, and make a list off all the things I love about her on the left side.
- On the right side, make a list of all the things that drive me insane.
- Stare long and hard at the right side, asking myself "can you live with this for the rest of your life?" If the answer is yes, then I likely have my answer to the larger question.

Simply put, you cannot make that level of a committment with any expectations of change, other than knowing she/he will change, but the nature and result of which will likely be completely out of your control.

For the men, but women can respond in kind, what does it take to make you want to become a better person? What about you will you NOT change in order to get that special mate?
This one is tough, because my initial reaction was "I'm not sure." Wanting to be a better man usually(or should be) is the center of the inspiration of wanting to commit to someone. But by the same token I can't easily change "who I am". I can, however, change "what I do". The line between the two can be blurry at times. A good example that OLS provided was video games. I enjoy playing them and, if left to my own devices, play them too often on occasion. However, I would never let my play of a game interfere with my relationship responsibilities or enjoyment of time with my partner. Though it would kick butt if she enjoyed playing them as well .

Jack Nicholson's character changed some of his lifestyle because he felt inspired by Helen Hunt's character to better his life. I don't see anything wrong with that. Everyone I think makes improvements in their life in response to a variety of inspirations. Its one thing to be inspired, its wholly another to have change imposed.

Another area where inspiration can happen is with complementary interests. For example, I play softball a lot, but my potential mate may prefer tennis. She may or may not choose to play softball with me, and I won't ask her to play if she doesn't genuinely want to. By the same token, I enjoy tennis but don't go out of my way to play it. I might consider playing more tennis so that it could be an activity we share together. That's a change in what I do in order to cultivate the relationship, but doesn't change who I am. The latter is far tougher to accomplish and to be effective/successful must be inspired either by personal experiences or the desire to improve on one's own lot in life.

Doc

I can think of a few lonely guys who are that way of their own accord, but will not admit it. One is overweight, yet waits for a woman of Playboy quality. I watched him ignore a nice looking, but a bit overweight, lady at work. She smiled at him and said hello every morning for 3 days, and he ignored here. We, his married coworkers asked "what is your problem", and he said, "she is too fat for me". The guy looks like the cartoon character Baby Huey, for crying out loud. We said, hey, get together with her and maybe you can both sweat off the extra pounds. He was not amused. He is still single.
He was, probably still is, a case of unrealistic expectations and unwillingness to concede that he had faults of his own.
Another is a product of being the youngest child, only boy, with 2 older sisters who helped their mommy spoil him. He has had women waiting on him all his life, but now that he is grown up can't find anyone to take over for his mommy and sisters.
Another is Jewish, has a decent job, not bad looking, but wants a Mexican Jew, so she can share his religion, and be subservient to him. I told him that I am sure that Mexican girls (from Mexico) are very rarely Jewish, and that I doubted either Mexican or Jewish women are likely to be subservient to someone who is only a so-so catch. Perhaps if he were rich, she might go along with his dream until after the honeymoon, then watch out! I know one who actually got a subservient type, a Korean, but once she got over here and started talking to the neighbor wives, that all stopped.
So in my opinion, a lot of us men are pretty stupid. I can't speak for the women, altho I suspect that a lot of them are unwilling to take a chance on marrying a man who later turns out likes being stupid.

To answer my own questions:
For the women, but men can respond in kind, just how much can you forgive, or overlook, in a prospective mate? What can you absolutely NOT overlook?

I can overlook just about anything, being a very mellow guy.
There are limits, tho. I am straight arrow, except in the Jimmy Carter way. I would leave in a heartbeat if my wife took on a boyfriend.
There are some especially irritating things that my wife does that some of you other men might be able to identify with, and that is when she uses knives as screwdrivers, and scissors as prybars. I have yelled a bit about those kinds of things.

For the men, but women can respond in kind, what does it take to make you want to become a better person? What about you will you NOT change in order to get that special mate?

I know full well that I married better than my wife did, so I have tried to become a better person to correct the unbalance. That includes being a family man, supporting her in her many endeavors (altho she has abused that part a few times)
and in general just trying to be worthy of her. I can't seem to get into religion as much as she would like, tho. I go to church with her, and keep my mouth shut about some of the things I hear people say.
I suppose I was a pig-in-a-poke for her. She didn't meet my parents until almost 2 years after we married. After meeting them she later told me that she had never fully believed the things I had said about them, but now she does. So she knows just how bad I could have been.

I can't imagine having any kind of serious relationship with someone if there were major differences in our basic philosophies on important issues. In this sense, I could not overlook things like the other person being anti-feminist, very religious, wanting children, and so on. I'm not saying these are bad things, I'm just saying that these things would make life very difficult for us. I take it for granted that I could not accept things such as cruelty. There are also a few trivial things I could not tolerate. For example, I could not live with a smoker, no matter how wonderful that person might be. It would simply make my life miserable to have to put up with that smell all the time.

I changed in some ways. For the first time in my life, I lived outside of Southern California. For the first time in my life, I lived somewhere other than the suburbs. I became a lactovegetarian. All these changes made me happier. There have been a few very minor changes which didn't make me happier, but which I was certainly willing to make. For example, I used to go to the movies a lot; sometimes as much as three or four times a day. I married someone who is not a movie buff, and the number of times we have been in a movie theater since 1985 can be counted on the fingers of one hand. That's a tiny sacrifice to make. The things I would not give up are those things I listed at the start. I'm not going to raise children, I'm not going to participate in religious activities, and so on. Of course, this never comes up, so it's no problem.

For the men, but women can respond in kind, what does it take to make you want to become a better person? What about you will you NOT change in order to get that special mate?

I had some time to think about this subject, after I left my first wife. I even studied it some as a subject related to counselling and psychology- great subject BTW Bill - and came to the conclusion that every individual is different, regardless of gender LOL

I compromised too much in my first marriage. I allowed my ex to spend us into debt that took us both 5 year after our divorce to pay off. I allowed her to be emotionally and psychologically abusive to me (forgave her once for hitting me even early on, left her 2 weeks after the second time) - so changing too much to please your spouse is not a good thing. I still have very negative feelings towards her, bordering on hate, that, had I left her earlier, before marriage, when I saw some of the early warning signs (they were subtle, really didn't get out of control until right after the first year of marriage, it was not too bad until then) - I might not now be so negative about her, and I changed my behavior in order to "make the relationship work". I did buy into some of the notion I suppose that "men are always wrong, women are always right" thing we hear today, usually in jest, but with an undertone of "truth" we men are barraged with today.

So no, some compromise is good, too much is very bad, and niether will be happy in the end. You can not and should not change some of the fundamental issues in your personality or beliefs for your mate.

However, as Bill pointed out- being too hung up on looks is completely Asinine. We all have stages in our life when we are not too beatiful or buff (to say the least, what an understatment there eh? ) - and, we all get older at some point, and no matter how hollywood beautiful we are, that will go away eventually.

My current wife, married six years in September, is the love of my life, and was young and stunningly beautiful and in perfect shape when we married- but, believe it or not, having dated quite a number or women at that point in my life that were young and stunningly beautiful , and many that were not, that was a side benefit to me, I was looking for compatability, not total common interests, but emotional compatability, at this point.

I just got lucky I guess. We had two children and <gasp> she gained hearly 100 pounds. Didn't care one wit- she was still young and stunningly beautiful to me. I have always struggled with my wieght, I have to exercise like a madman and "lifestyle" diet my whole life, and will have medical problems if I do not. Well, I gained 80 pounds of "sympathy wieght" (that is what I call it LOL) when my wife gained hers. We both went to the Dr in the spring and got on a program and lost it all - I look and feel much better, and my wife looks nothing short of incredible.

When she was putting on her dresses she hasn't worn since her first pregnancy last week and squeeling like a school girl she said to me "you know, not once when I was fat did you tell me anything but how beautiful and atractive I was, even though looking at my pictures I was not " ( I still disagree , women and thier self image issues LOL) and, in the end, it made my marriage better.

I do have some fat slob men, that are complete macho jerks, kind of like Bills friends, that have thier standards set WAY too high. They are not personally succesful ,they are not pretty, heck, they are barely clean, and sometimes not even that LOL- yet, they want some supermodel. - and on this, they may be my friends, but I am brutal on this , telling them "you don't have the pull on this issue dude to be picky, you should just be grateful ANY woman would hang out with you".

Then again, I also have some really cool friends guys that are not lookers, not particularly succesful (though not broke or unstable financially) that just don't seem to have enough charm to atract any lady of decent character, even though that is what they are looking for, with darn few hangups about women themselves. All those guys that have eventually found success in love have looked outside the US, mostly the eastern bloc states, and have found real love themselves, as I.

This makes me ask- is this more of an American problem- this looking for the wrong thing in a mate?-

Russian women network with each other in any community they are in I have learned, not limited to Russian women, but more eastern bloc and European women- like my wife has friends locally from Montenegro, Lithuiania, Ukraine etc- and they are all mostly in very succesful marriages with Alaskan/American men and all met on the internet for the most part, in fact, the only failed marriage is one that met over there first (wierd huh?) - and we discuss this issue at length among ourselves- and there is a couple of common denominators, and as usual, more truth is said in jest than in earnst, they have a saying "a husband should be just one step more pretty than a monkey" LOL- meaning, as I see it, that too good looking men are too full of themselves to be giving enought towards thier family and be too self centered- a generalization, but a good read into how these women think.

Another is- they are more concerned about security, fidelity and family overall than the american women, instead of some of the more material things in life- they don't care about having the biggest house- just A house etc . I am talking about personal experiance here, and the women I have personally been involved with, both as a couple and as friends, and one other thing is they also tend to like older men, when we have lost some of our more obnoxious teenage character traits LOL- I personally KNOW I am a better husband and father now than I could have ever been when I was young, buff and pretty . Luckily for the women I dated back then, I was at least smart enough to know this and did not marry the first time until I had settled down some- and then made a spectacularly bad choice - but, I made up for it with my second marriage and then some.


In my very long winded reply, I guess I have to say you have to know what to compromise on, and what you can and can't live with.

This has been a great help in my field of counselling, and I think I am a better relationship counseller for it- the man is not always wrong in a relationship, nor is the woman- and many relationships, especially those in trouble , the more wrong person with more issues is forcing the wrong person to change LOL- I see it about equal men and women as far as which is which in numbers of who is the one "screwing up" the relationship- often unknowingly.

You know- as with Bill's male friends, I also have some female friends that have the same problems- they can't pick a relationship with a man that is healthy to save thier souls. Two of them are of the mind set that "men are pigs and are always wrong"- they say this as a joke all the time- but you see that, in reality, they have some serious issues.

The difference here is, men, if the woman is pretty, will put up with a ugly on the inside woman, at least for a while. So they may not be as lonely as a man in this case- but the company they get probably will not last!

He he he. OK, I'm 30, but I'm still single.

I've met a few great ones, but, of course, I didn't realize it when they were around.

Generally, the complaint involves not being able to read me. So I suppose a lack of communications may be the problem, however, I love to listen and talk. I just have a serious introverted streak, such that while I am often very sociable, I also have streaks where I don't have anything to say, and am generally annoyed by the presence of others, even close friends, and of course, lovers. Funny how my friends seem to understand this and stick around, while the women get discouraged and leave (oddly, they usually still like me, they just eventually move on).

For the men, but women can respond in kind, what does it take to make you want to become a better person? What about you will you NOT change in order to get that special mate?

I'm not exactly sure how I could possibly become any better than I am. I suppose that if I found a woman who met all of my superficial requirements, and was smart, somewhat outdoorsy, self-reliant, and able to deal with my moodiness, I'd be willing to try REAL hard to call her at least once a week. I don't suppose theres anything that I could change that I wouldn't - but there's a lot I can't change.