Full Version: Israeli Settler origins?
Gaza Pulllout thread
I was all set to add this to my post on this thread, but as I typed it I thought it was probably worth a thread in its own right.
I ahev an ear for accents - just a natural thing. I can usually tell with some degree of accuracy where English speakers learned their English - unlike some people, I can easily tell the difference between Australian & New Zealand acccents (just asked them to say "fish"!), for example. Non-native English speakers are harder, since they could be from anywhere in the world, but generally it's easy enough for me to tell if someone learned their English as a native or as a second language.
Now, most of the Israelis I've heard interviewed in the past speak American English with a strong "foreign" (i.e. non-American, be it Middle-European or Middle-Eastern) accent. American English is now the world's lingua franca (much as might I despair of non-native English-speakers living within 4,000 miles of London speaking American English, I have to be a realist), so that's not really surprising.
Yet all of the Israelis I've heard interviewed in the last few days with regard to the Gaza withdrawal speak American English with a pure American accent and no trace of any other nationality. This IS somewhat surprising, to me at least.
Israel is a young country, with rights of return for Jews wherever they originate, so I don't find it hard to imagine that many Israeli citizenss were born and raised in the USA, or are children of such people. What does puzzle me is the apparent disproportionality of such people among the settlers in the occupied territories. (It's interesting in itself that Americans tend to put those two words in inverted commas, as if they are not really being occupied, where Europeans are more likely to capitalise them.)
Which made me wonder....
Do you think that the most Jews (those most likely to go and live in settlements in disputed territory) are disproportionately of American origin? Why?
If yes, is this because of an offshoot of the American "pioneer spirit"?
If not that, could the fairly uniformly pro-Israeli stance in America make Israelis of American origin more likely to be supportive of the policy of settlement than those from Europe or elsewhere?
What are the implications of this for America, Israel, and the wider Middle East?
I was all set to add this to my post on this thread, but as I typed it I thought it was probably worth a thread in its own right.
I ahev an ear for accents - just a natural thing. I can usually tell with some degree of accuracy where English speakers learned their English - unlike some people, I can easily tell the difference between Australian & New Zealand acccents (just asked them to say "fish"!), for example. Non-native English speakers are harder, since they could be from anywhere in the world, but generally it's easy enough for me to tell if someone learned their English as a native or as a second language.
Now, most of the Israelis I've heard interviewed in the past speak American English with a strong "foreign" (i.e. non-American, be it Middle-European or Middle-Eastern) accent. American English is now the world's lingua franca (much as might I despair of non-native English-speakers living within 4,000 miles of London speaking American English, I have to be a realist), so that's not really surprising.
Yet all of the Israelis I've heard interviewed in the last few days with regard to the Gaza withdrawal speak American English with a pure American accent and no trace of any other nationality. This IS somewhat surprising, to me at least.
Israel is a young country, with rights of return for Jews wherever they originate, so I don't find it hard to imagine that many Israeli citizenss were born and raised in the USA, or are children of such people. What does puzzle me is the apparent disproportionality of such people among the settlers in the occupied territories. (It's interesting in itself that Americans tend to put those two words in inverted commas, as if they are not really being occupied, where Europeans are more likely to capitalise them.)
Which made me wonder....
Do you think that the most Jews (those most likely to go and live in settlements in disputed territory) are disproportionately of American origin? Why?
If yes, is this because of an offshoot of the American "pioneer spirit"?
If not that, could the fairly uniformly pro-Israeli stance in America make Israelis of American origin more likely to be supportive of the policy of settlement than those from Europe or elsewhere?
What are the implications of this for America, Israel, and the wider Middle East?
There are a couple of things happening here.
First, the news crews look for people with strong english.
Second, and this is the most important; the "Settlement" projects were designed to appeal to the extremely orthodox. They have always had a strong religious flavour. Since the withdrawal has been announced the majority of those who snuck into the Strip to protest have been the very religious. This is significant because Orthodox Jews in America are much more wealthy than their Israeli counterparts.
At the same time, the Jewish population in America is about the same as the Jewish population in Israel, so settlements that appeal to Jews for religious as opposed to political/economic reasons are going to attract quite a few Americans.
First, the news crews look for people with strong english.
Second, and this is the most important; the "Settlement" projects were designed to appeal to the extremely orthodox. They have always had a strong religious flavour. Since the withdrawal has been announced the majority of those who snuck into the Strip to protest have been the very religious. This is significant because Orthodox Jews in America are much more wealthy than their Israeli counterparts.
At the same time, the Jewish population in America is about the same as the Jewish population in Israel, so settlements that appeal to Jews for religious as opposed to political/economic reasons are going to attract quite a few Americans.
I'd like to think about this one a little more before I answer the questions posed for debate, but I do have a couple of links to some census numbers that might prove helpful.
Jewish Virtual Library
Israel population by Origin
According to the second link, only 4% of the Israeli population is identified as "Americas" in origin. I find that surprising.
Gonna have to think on this one.....
Jewish Virtual Library
Israel population by Origin
According to the second link, only 4% of the Israeli population is identified as "Americas" in origin. I find that surprising.
Gonna have to think on this one.....
Do you think that the most Jews (those most likely to go and live in settlements in disputed territory) are disproportionately of American origin? Why?
Yes, because America has the largest Jewish population in the world.
If yes, is this because of an offshoot of the American "pioneer spirit"?
I doubt it. The illegal settlers are motivated by orthodox religious reasons
If not that, could the fairly uniformly pro-Israeli stance in America make Israelis of American origin more likely to be supportive of the policy of settlement than those from Europe or elsewhere?
Everything I have ever seen of the settlers indicates they are mostly from the USA. I've seen an Israeli documentary which put the influx of Jewish immigrants from Russia into the context of the illegal settlements and showed quite clearly that most Russian Jews chose to stay within the borders of Israel.
What are the implications of this for America, Israel, and the wider Middle East?
I'm quite surprised that you've only noticed this trend now Julian. This is something thats been out in the open for ages. The Palestinians have long pointed out that most of the Israeli settlers who shoot their Palestinian neighbours are of American origin.
Its one of the main reasons why so many Palestinians like to refer to Israel as an American colony.
The wider implications are not that great though. Sharon has obviously come to understand what Rabin knew, that the greatest problem facing Israel is not the Palestinians, but rather the militant elements within Israel that have long kept the violence going under the protection of the IDF.
These 'settlers' are nothing but land thieves who have too long held a strangle hold over Israeli politics, murdering whomsever got in their way, be they Palestinian children or the Prime Minster of Israel himself. The sooner they are expelled from the land they stole, the sooner peace will come to Israel.
Finally, Ariel Sharon is doing the right thing. I hope he can continue to do so and this, much publicized pull out is not just a cover for a far greater land grab in the far more lucrative west bank.
I'm not holding my breath though.
Yes, because America has the largest Jewish population in the world.
If yes, is this because of an offshoot of the American "pioneer spirit"?
I doubt it. The illegal settlers are motivated by orthodox religious reasons
If not that, could the fairly uniformly pro-Israeli stance in America make Israelis of American origin more likely to be supportive of the policy of settlement than those from Europe or elsewhere?
Everything I have ever seen of the settlers indicates they are mostly from the USA. I've seen an Israeli documentary which put the influx of Jewish immigrants from Russia into the context of the illegal settlements and showed quite clearly that most Russian Jews chose to stay within the borders of Israel.
What are the implications of this for America, Israel, and the wider Middle East?
I'm quite surprised that you've only noticed this trend now Julian. This is something thats been out in the open for ages. The Palestinians have long pointed out that most of the Israeli settlers who shoot their Palestinian neighbours are of American origin.
Its one of the main reasons why so many Palestinians like to refer to Israel as an American colony.
The wider implications are not that great though. Sharon has obviously come to understand what Rabin knew, that the greatest problem facing Israel is not the Palestinians, but rather the militant elements within Israel that have long kept the violence going under the protection of the IDF.
These 'settlers' are nothing but land thieves who have too long held a strangle hold over Israeli politics, murdering whomsever got in their way, be they Palestinian children or the Prime Minster of Israel himself. The sooner they are expelled from the land they stole, the sooner peace will come to Israel.
Finally, Ariel Sharon is doing the right thing. I hope he can continue to do so and this, much publicized pull out is not just a cover for a far greater land grab in the far more lucrative west bank.
I'm not holding my breath though.
Do you think that the most Jews (those most likely to go and live in settlements in disputed territory) are disproportionately of American origin? Why?
I don't think so. Every person I've ever met who was originally from Israel spoke perfect English with an American accent. This was true even for people who had never stepped into the United States a day in their lives. I knew some Israelis who lived in Italy that sounded as American as I do, though they had never been to the states. I don't know why that is, but I'd imagine it has something to do with the education system. My father-in-law, for example, speaks English with an American accent. There is absolutely NO WAY to tell that he is a foreigner by the way he speaks. He explained that in the Cuban school system in which he was educated, half of the day class was conducted in English and the other half of the day in Spanish. Unlike adults (my mother still speaks with a thick Italian accent), children who are instructed and fully immersed in a language pick it up with no accent whatsoever. Our French neighbors' children sound precisely American after living here only a little over a year.
If not that, could the fairly uniformly pro-Israeli stance in America make Israelis of American origin more likely to be supportive of the policy of settlement than those from Europe or elsewhere?
I don't know. Honestly, I know that a lot of Americans visit Israel, but I wasn't under the impression that many actually move there. I'd expect most Americans would be as much afraid of the dangers of living in disputed territory as any other foreigner.
Edited to add: I found the immigration statistics here (pdf). USA immigration to Israel is quite low by comparison to many other countries.
I don't think so. Every person I've ever met who was originally from Israel spoke perfect English with an American accent. This was true even for people who had never stepped into the United States a day in their lives. I knew some Israelis who lived in Italy that sounded as American as I do, though they had never been to the states. I don't know why that is, but I'd imagine it has something to do with the education system. My father-in-law, for example, speaks English with an American accent. There is absolutely NO WAY to tell that he is a foreigner by the way he speaks. He explained that in the Cuban school system in which he was educated, half of the day class was conducted in English and the other half of the day in Spanish. Unlike adults (my mother still speaks with a thick Italian accent), children who are instructed and fully immersed in a language pick it up with no accent whatsoever. Our French neighbors' children sound precisely American after living here only a little over a year.
If not that, could the fairly uniformly pro-Israeli stance in America make Israelis of American origin more likely to be supportive of the policy of settlement than those from Europe or elsewhere?
I don't know. Honestly, I know that a lot of Americans visit Israel, but I wasn't under the impression that many actually move there. I'd expect most Americans would be as much afraid of the dangers of living in disputed territory as any other foreigner.
Edited to add: I found the immigration statistics here (pdf). USA immigration to Israel is quite low by comparison to many other countries.
Do you think that the most Jews (those most likely to go and live in settlements in disputed territory) are disproportionately of American origin? Why?
No they are not. According to the Israeli Central Census Bureau, 66% of Israelis are Sabra (ie born in Israel). The towns and villages of Gaza and the West Bank reflect this margin as well.
Israelis are required to take a foreign language in school. It used to be that most took Arabic, but that has changed. Most speak with little to no accent and those that do usually learn from New Yorkers and pick up an American accent.
If yes, is this because of an offshoot of the American "pioneer spirit"?
I would say that those that move to those villages do so because of a more pioneer type spirit.
If not that, could the fairly uniformly pro-Israeli stance in America make Israelis of American origin more likely to be supportive of the policy of settlement than those from Europe or elsewhere?
I think that more Americans in general are more supportive of Israel than any European nation period. I think that American Jews are actually less supportive than Americans in general. A very large percentage of American Jews are more liberal than the United States is as a whole.
What are the implications of this for America, Israel, and the wider Middle East? Probably little to none.
moif you keep going on a tirade against 'illegal settlers' but in fact the opposite is the truth. They are not illegal in any sense of the word. I can provide 4 international laws and/or treaties that state that. So please leave your prejudices out of this debate.
No they are not. According to the Israeli Central Census Bureau, 66% of Israelis are Sabra (ie born in Israel). The towns and villages of Gaza and the West Bank reflect this margin as well.
Israelis are required to take a foreign language in school. It used to be that most took Arabic, but that has changed. Most speak with little to no accent and those that do usually learn from New Yorkers and pick up an American accent.
If yes, is this because of an offshoot of the American "pioneer spirit"?
I would say that those that move to those villages do so because of a more pioneer type spirit.
If not that, could the fairly uniformly pro-Israeli stance in America make Israelis of American origin more likely to be supportive of the policy of settlement than those from Europe or elsewhere?
I think that more Americans in general are more supportive of Israel than any European nation period. I think that American Jews are actually less supportive than Americans in general. A very large percentage of American Jews are more liberal than the United States is as a whole.
What are the implications of this for America, Israel, and the wider Middle East? Probably little to none.
moif you keep going on a tirade against 'illegal settlers' but in fact the opposite is the truth. They are not illegal in any sense of the word. I can provide 4 international laws and/or treaties that state that. So please leave your prejudices out of this debate.
Do you think that the most Jews (those most likely to go and live in settlements in disputed territory) are disproportionately of American origin? Why?
Like born/raised in America? Not at all. The numbers do not back that at all. Few Americans emigrate to Israel A link
Many like Netanyahu I am sure get educated in the US but I have never heard of a US diaspora towards Israel. Most come from Russia and other former soviet states. The American's that do emigrate are skilled professionals not soldiers.
If not that, could the fairly uniformly pro-Israeli stance in America make Israelis of American origin more likely to be supportive of the policy of settlement than those from Europe or elsewhere?
Probably. I would think that American christian zionists were bigger friends of the settlements then the US Jewish population which I always suspected is pretty secular. Senator Liberman who is pretty devout supported F-15 sales to Saudi Arabia. I do not think Israel politics work into the jewish American psyche that much despite what middle eastern muslim conspiracy theorists would have you believe.
What are the implications of this for America, Israel, and the wider Middle East?
I do not see any implications because I see nothing that suggests that Israel has a substantial American origin population.
The Palestinian claim that it is Israeli soldiers of America origins who are trigger happy I think is unsubstantiated. Just another conspiracy theory. I think Palestnians call Israel an American colony because of the US backing of Israel. Not because of population links. The shooting thing is just another in a long line of insinuations that people of American origin are trigger happy. I see zero evidence to support that Israeli-American Jews are the ones shooting Palestinians.
Like born/raised in America? Not at all. The numbers do not back that at all. Few Americans emigrate to Israel A link
Many like Netanyahu I am sure get educated in the US but I have never heard of a US diaspora towards Israel. Most come from Russia and other former soviet states. The American's that do emigrate are skilled professionals not soldiers.
If not that, could the fairly uniformly pro-Israeli stance in America make Israelis of American origin more likely to be supportive of the policy of settlement than those from Europe or elsewhere?
Probably. I would think that American christian zionists were bigger friends of the settlements then the US Jewish population which I always suspected is pretty secular. Senator Liberman who is pretty devout supported F-15 sales to Saudi Arabia. I do not think Israel politics work into the jewish American psyche that much despite what middle eastern muslim conspiracy theorists would have you believe.
What are the implications of this for America, Israel, and the wider Middle East?
I do not see any implications because I see nothing that suggests that Israel has a substantial American origin population.
The Palestinian claim that it is Israeli soldiers of America origins who are trigger happy I think is unsubstantiated. Just another conspiracy theory. I think Palestnians call Israel an American colony because of the US backing of Israel. Not because of population links. The shooting thing is just another in a long line of insinuations that people of American origin are trigger happy. I see zero evidence to support that Israeli-American Jews are the ones shooting Palestinians.
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