Full Version: Bush, Blacks and Katrina
Personally, my sentiments are that if New Orleans had been 67 percent white and wealthy and Republican instead on 67 percent black, poor and Democrat, the Bush Administration would have pulled out all the stops in responding to the disaster down South.
But where you stand on whether or not race mattered after Hurricane Katrina blew through depends a lot upon your political perspective. For example:
Bob Herbert/New York Times columnist: Death and the stink of decay were all over the city. Corpses were propped up in wheelchairs and on lawn furniture, or left to decompose on sunbaked sidewalks. Some floated by in water fouled by human feces.
Degenerates roamed the city, shooting at rescue workers, beating and robbing distraught residents and tourists, raping women and girls. The president of the richest, most powerful country in the history of the world didn't seem to notice.
Viewers could watch diabetics go into insulin shock on national television, and you could see babies with the pale, vacant look of hunger that we're more used to seeing in dispatches from the third world. You could see their mothers, dirty and hungry themselves, weeping.
Old, critically ill people were left to soil themselves and in some cases die like stray animals on the floor of an airport triage center. For days the president of the United States didn't seem to notice.
He would have noticed if the majority of these stricken folks had been white and prosperous. But they weren't. Most were black and poor, and thus, to the George W. Bush administration, still invisible.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/05/opinion/...Ed%2fColumnists
But Rabbi Aryeh Spiro on Human Events Online saw the catastrophe quite differently.
In New Orleans, beginning Tuesday morning, August 30, I saw men in helicopters risking their lives to save stranded flood victims from rooftops. The rescuers were White, the stranded Black. I saw Caucasians navigating their small, private boats in violent, swirling, toxic floodwaters to find fellow citizens trapped in their houses. Those they saved were Black.
I saw Brotherhood. New York Congressman Charlie Rangel saw Racism.
Yes, there are Two Americas. One is the real America, where virtually every White person I know sends money, food or clothes to those in need -- now and in other crises -- regardless of color. This America is colorblind.
The other is the America fantasized and manufactured by Charlie Rangel, Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, who constantly cry “racism!” even in situations where it does not exist, even when undeniable images illustrate love, compassion and concern. These three men, together with today’s NAACP, want to continue the notion of Racist America. It is their Mantra, their calling card. Their power, money, and continued media appearances depend on it.
Often, people caught up in accusing others of sin neglect to undergo their own personal introspection. They begin to think they alone inhabit the moral high ground. It is high time these men peered into their own hearts at the dark chamber that causes this unceasing labeling of their fellow Americans as “racist.” They may find in that chamber their own racism -- against Whites.
There is only one real America. Beginning Friday morning in Houston, thousands of regular citizens poured into the Astrodome offering water, food, clean clothes, personal items, baby diapers and toys, love and even their homes to the evacuees who had been bused in from New Orleans. Most of the givers were White, most of those being helped were Black. But there was Jesse Jackson, busy on TV, accusing the country of not putting Blacks -- i.e., him -- on some type of Commission he is demanding. Where was he early in the week? Not sweating with others from around the country who had scraped their last dollar to come help. With Jesse, it’s always about Jesse.
http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?id=8921
George W. Bush has come in for the lion's share of the criticism. Well, he is the President of the United States and rightly or wrongly, that's usually where the buck stops. Jacob Weisberg writing in SLATE said,
At the heart of the matter is the racial pattern of American constituency politics. I don't think Kanye West can support his view that George W. Bush just doesn't care about black people. But it's a demonstrable matter of fact that Bush doesn't care much about black votes. And that, in the end, may amount to the same thing.
Because they don't see blacks as a current or potential constituency, Bush and his fellow Republicans do not respond out of the instinct of self-interest when dealing with their concerns. Helping low-income blacks is a matter of charity to them, not necessity. The condescension in their attitude intensifies when it comes to New Orleans, which is 67 percent black and largely irrelevant to GOP political ambitions. Cities with large African-American population that happen to be in important swing states may command some of Karl Rove's respect as election time approaches. But Louisiana is small (9 electoral votes) and not much of a swinger these days. In 2004, Bush carried it by a 57-42 margin. If Bush and Rove didn't experience the spontaneous political reflex to help New Orleans, it may be because they don't think of New Orleans as a place that helps them.
Had the residents of New Orleans been white Republicans in a state that mattered politically, instead of poor blacks in city that didn't, Bush's response surely would have been different. Compare what happened when hurricanes Charley and Frances hit Florida in 2004. Though the damage from those storms was negligible in relation to Katrina's, the reaction from the White House was instinctive, rapid, and generous to the point of profligacy. Bush visited hurricane victims four times in six weeks and delivered relief checks personally. Michael Brown of FEMA, now widely regarded as an incompetent political hack, was so responsive that local officials praised the agency's performance.
The kind of constituency politics that results in a big life-preserver for whites in Florida and a tiny one for blacks in Louisiana may not be racist by design or intent. But the inevitable result is clear racial discrimination. It won't change when Republicans care more about blacks. It will change when they have more reason to care.
http://slate.msn.com/id/2125812/?nav=ais
I admit to a certain degree of conflicted emotions. I agree with Weisberg that the race of victims mattered in Florida and in Louisiana. But I share with Rabbi Spiro a great deal of weariness of Jesse (have camera crew will travel) Jackson and Al Sharpton parachuting into New Orleans and Houston to denounce everything in sight and then jetting off to the next photo op.
Here in Columbus, a white realtor sent a bus to New Orleans to pick up families, bring them up to Ohio where he's putting them up in new furnished apartments rent-free for the next year and helping the evacuees find jobs and get their kids back into school. He's also one of the biggest contributors to the local GOP. Some racist, huh?
But on the other hand, I do believe that in the aftermath of Katrina an undue amount of focus was placed upon the race of the looters as if only blacks were committing crimes while whites were merely trying to survive. And I don't think little white babies would be crying from hunger on Fox, CNN and all over the televisor while the federal government sluggishly responded. And the federal government is controlled by Republicans.
So, the question for debate is Did race matter in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina?
But where you stand on whether or not race mattered after Hurricane Katrina blew through depends a lot upon your political perspective. For example:
Bob Herbert/New York Times columnist: Death and the stink of decay were all over the city. Corpses were propped up in wheelchairs and on lawn furniture, or left to decompose on sunbaked sidewalks. Some floated by in water fouled by human feces.
Degenerates roamed the city, shooting at rescue workers, beating and robbing distraught residents and tourists, raping women and girls. The president of the richest, most powerful country in the history of the world didn't seem to notice.
Viewers could watch diabetics go into insulin shock on national television, and you could see babies with the pale, vacant look of hunger that we're more used to seeing in dispatches from the third world. You could see their mothers, dirty and hungry themselves, weeping.
Old, critically ill people were left to soil themselves and in some cases die like stray animals on the floor of an airport triage center. For days the president of the United States didn't seem to notice.
He would have noticed if the majority of these stricken folks had been white and prosperous. But they weren't. Most were black and poor, and thus, to the George W. Bush administration, still invisible.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/05/opinion/...Ed%2fColumnists
But Rabbi Aryeh Spiro on Human Events Online saw the catastrophe quite differently.
In New Orleans, beginning Tuesday morning, August 30, I saw men in helicopters risking their lives to save stranded flood victims from rooftops. The rescuers were White, the stranded Black. I saw Caucasians navigating their small, private boats in violent, swirling, toxic floodwaters to find fellow citizens trapped in their houses. Those they saved were Black.
I saw Brotherhood. New York Congressman Charlie Rangel saw Racism.
Yes, there are Two Americas. One is the real America, where virtually every White person I know sends money, food or clothes to those in need -- now and in other crises -- regardless of color. This America is colorblind.
The other is the America fantasized and manufactured by Charlie Rangel, Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, who constantly cry “racism!” even in situations where it does not exist, even when undeniable images illustrate love, compassion and concern. These three men, together with today’s NAACP, want to continue the notion of Racist America. It is their Mantra, their calling card. Their power, money, and continued media appearances depend on it.
Often, people caught up in accusing others of sin neglect to undergo their own personal introspection. They begin to think they alone inhabit the moral high ground. It is high time these men peered into their own hearts at the dark chamber that causes this unceasing labeling of their fellow Americans as “racist.” They may find in that chamber their own racism -- against Whites.
There is only one real America. Beginning Friday morning in Houston, thousands of regular citizens poured into the Astrodome offering water, food, clean clothes, personal items, baby diapers and toys, love and even their homes to the evacuees who had been bused in from New Orleans. Most of the givers were White, most of those being helped were Black. But there was Jesse Jackson, busy on TV, accusing the country of not putting Blacks -- i.e., him -- on some type of Commission he is demanding. Where was he early in the week? Not sweating with others from around the country who had scraped their last dollar to come help. With Jesse, it’s always about Jesse.
http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?id=8921
George W. Bush has come in for the lion's share of the criticism. Well, he is the President of the United States and rightly or wrongly, that's usually where the buck stops. Jacob Weisberg writing in SLATE said,
At the heart of the matter is the racial pattern of American constituency politics. I don't think Kanye West can support his view that George W. Bush just doesn't care about black people. But it's a demonstrable matter of fact that Bush doesn't care much about black votes. And that, in the end, may amount to the same thing.
Because they don't see blacks as a current or potential constituency, Bush and his fellow Republicans do not respond out of the instinct of self-interest when dealing with their concerns. Helping low-income blacks is a matter of charity to them, not necessity. The condescension in their attitude intensifies when it comes to New Orleans, which is 67 percent black and largely irrelevant to GOP political ambitions. Cities with large African-American population that happen to be in important swing states may command some of Karl Rove's respect as election time approaches. But Louisiana is small (9 electoral votes) and not much of a swinger these days. In 2004, Bush carried it by a 57-42 margin. If Bush and Rove didn't experience the spontaneous political reflex to help New Orleans, it may be because they don't think of New Orleans as a place that helps them.
Had the residents of New Orleans been white Republicans in a state that mattered politically, instead of poor blacks in city that didn't, Bush's response surely would have been different. Compare what happened when hurricanes Charley and Frances hit Florida in 2004. Though the damage from those storms was negligible in relation to Katrina's, the reaction from the White House was instinctive, rapid, and generous to the point of profligacy. Bush visited hurricane victims four times in six weeks and delivered relief checks personally. Michael Brown of FEMA, now widely regarded as an incompetent political hack, was so responsive that local officials praised the agency's performance.
The kind of constituency politics that results in a big life-preserver for whites in Florida and a tiny one for blacks in Louisiana may not be racist by design or intent. But the inevitable result is clear racial discrimination. It won't change when Republicans care more about blacks. It will change when they have more reason to care.
http://slate.msn.com/id/2125812/?nav=ais
I admit to a certain degree of conflicted emotions. I agree with Weisberg that the race of victims mattered in Florida and in Louisiana. But I share with Rabbi Spiro a great deal of weariness of Jesse (have camera crew will travel) Jackson and Al Sharpton parachuting into New Orleans and Houston to denounce everything in sight and then jetting off to the next photo op.
Here in Columbus, a white realtor sent a bus to New Orleans to pick up families, bring them up to Ohio where he's putting them up in new furnished apartments rent-free for the next year and helping the evacuees find jobs and get their kids back into school. He's also one of the biggest contributors to the local GOP. Some racist, huh?
But on the other hand, I do believe that in the aftermath of Katrina an undue amount of focus was placed upon the race of the looters as if only blacks were committing crimes while whites were merely trying to survive. And I don't think little white babies would be crying from hunger on Fox, CNN and all over the televisor while the federal government sluggishly responded. And the federal government is controlled by Republicans.
So, the question for debate is Did race matter in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina?
Did race matter in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina?
I picked other. The "other" is that I believe "class" mattered and not so much race. It is mostly poor people (predominately black), health-impaired and elderly who were either unable or unwilling to evacuate. However, I do believe that there is a systemic racial component in that a disproportionate number of poor folks are black particularly in New Orleans.
I picked other. The "other" is that I believe "class" mattered and not so much race. It is mostly poor people (predominately black), health-impaired and elderly who were either unable or unwilling to evacuate. However, I do believe that there is a systemic racial component in that a disproportionate number of poor folks are black particularly in New Orleans.
[So, the question for debate is Did race matter in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina?
You have made some very good observations which leave us looking straight into the face of our biggest problem. Politics!
It seems the only way to get a good response in time of need is to be in a politically important position. This is an indictment upon our entire body politic regardless of affliliation.
We need to find a way to move beyond the what's in it for me mentality of politics, and focus on what's good for our people.
Last time i looked we are all Americans and deserve the same regard without racism or political capitol being the motivating factor.
Our entire government from local, state and federal shares equally in this indictment.
You have made some very good observations which leave us looking straight into the face of our biggest problem. Politics!
It seems the only way to get a good response in time of need is to be in a politically important position. This is an indictment upon our entire body politic regardless of affliliation.
We need to find a way to move beyond the what's in it for me mentality of politics, and focus on what's good for our people.
Last time i looked we are all Americans and deserve the same regard without racism or political capitol being the motivating factor.
Our entire government from local, state and federal shares equally in this indictment.
Did race matter in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina?
I’m going to say yes, although I do not know to what extent. What I think is more important is just pure political cynicism.
Last year the hurricanes hit Florida. Bush handled things with more urgent dispatch. Three elements were in play.
1. Bush’s brother was and is Governor of Florida.
2. Florida was one of those states up for grabs.
3. Bush was up for reelection and flying in on AF-1 with a sleigh full of goodies made a good photo-opt.
This year none of the three elements above were in play. Hence, the four day time delay.
If the election were this year, Bush would have been there as soon as possible with all the bells and whistles.
I’m going to say yes, although I do not know to what extent. What I think is more important is just pure political cynicism.
Last year the hurricanes hit Florida. Bush handled things with more urgent dispatch. Three elements were in play.
1. Bush’s brother was and is Governor of Florida.
2. Florida was one of those states up for grabs.
3. Bush was up for reelection and flying in on AF-1 with a sleigh full of goodies made a good photo-opt.
This year none of the three elements above were in play. Hence, the four day time delay.
If the election were this year, Bush would have been there as soon as possible with all the bells and whistles.
I am slow to say that race was a factor in the response.
Firstly because I see little evidence that definitely supports the theory.
Secondly because I'd really hate to believe it.
I do think class was an indirect factor, not in the response but in determining who caught the worst of the storm.
Once More, a Neighborhood Sees the Worst
The poor, black and white, in New Orleans mostly black, are used to seeing the only affordable housing situated in the rundown flood-prone sections of town.
I lived in a flood zone for years when I was a younger youngin' and only being well inland made the difference between a couple inches pooling in the backyard and scooting out of Bessemer in a boat.
I remember riding through New Orleans on a short trip this summer entirely impressed with the somewhat exotic nature of the the old architecture and Southern style... everything.
I remember a short diversion through a neighbor hood close to downtown. The clearly aging white rundown houses with red paneling packed close together. Hot, blank, blacks, face on the porch enjoying the cool of the evening.
If was easy to differentiate between the sharp hotel in the commercial district where I spent the night and the 'hood.
The sad fact is that's now a step up for a lot of the people I saw this summer.
Firstly because I see little evidence that definitely supports the theory.
Secondly because I'd really hate to believe it.
I do think class was an indirect factor, not in the response but in determining who caught the worst of the storm.
Once More, a Neighborhood Sees the Worst
The poor, black and white, in New Orleans mostly black, are used to seeing the only affordable housing situated in the rundown flood-prone sections of town.
I lived in a flood zone for years when I was a younger youngin' and only being well inland made the difference between a couple inches pooling in the backyard and scooting out of Bessemer in a boat.
I remember riding through New Orleans on a short trip this summer entirely impressed with the somewhat exotic nature of the the old architecture and Southern style... everything.
I remember a short diversion through a neighbor hood close to downtown. The clearly aging white rundown houses with red paneling packed close together. Hot, blank, blacks, face on the porch enjoying the cool of the evening.
If was easy to differentiate between the sharp hotel in the commercial district where I spent the night and the 'hood.
The sad fact is that's now a step up for a lot of the people I saw this summer.
Did race matter in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina?
I don't think so. There are just more poor African Americans than poor Caucasians and Hispanics in the New Orleans area.
It is extremely unfortunate that any group of people had to go through what the poor of New Orleans and surrounding areas did.
The federal, state and local governments let them down. I saw all kinds of school buses that could have been used to evacuate those without transportation the day before the hurricane hit. And I think that too many people placed more faith in the safety of the Superdome than was practical. But then, New Orleans had not been hit like this before.
The agencies goofed up, but I do not think it had anything to do with the races of those in need.
I don't think so. There are just more poor African Americans than poor Caucasians and Hispanics in the New Orleans area.
It is extremely unfortunate that any group of people had to go through what the poor of New Orleans and surrounding areas did.
The federal, state and local governments let them down. I saw all kinds of school buses that could have been used to evacuate those without transportation the day before the hurricane hit. And I think that too many people placed more faith in the safety of the Superdome than was practical. But then, New Orleans had not been hit like this before.
The agencies goofed up, but I do not think it had anything to do with the races of those in need.
Did race matter in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina?
It mattered in the sense that the anger of some blacks overpowered
and negatively affected the relief efforts. The dome shouldn't have
turned into the debacle that it did. A large part of the problem was
the violence occurring from within. To think that black men were
raping black women while the worst natural disaster of our time was
occurring really says a lot about the internal turmoil that exists.
As for blacks being disappointed, or feeling like they are targeted,
that's not necessarily the case. George Bush is an elitist. Expecting
him to care about poor people, whether they be black or any other
color, is simply expecting too much.
The only real solution, as I see it, is that blacks (just like any other
minority that wants to get a better position on the economic ladder)
need to acknowledge their societal condition and try to improve upon
it in whatever capacity possible. The government isn't going to solve the
poverty problem for blacks or anyone else.
It mattered in the sense that the anger of some blacks overpowered
and negatively affected the relief efforts. The dome shouldn't have
turned into the debacle that it did. A large part of the problem was
the violence occurring from within. To think that black men were
raping black women while the worst natural disaster of our time was
occurring really says a lot about the internal turmoil that exists.
As for blacks being disappointed, or feeling like they are targeted,
that's not necessarily the case. George Bush is an elitist. Expecting
him to care about poor people, whether they be black or any other
color, is simply expecting too much.
The only real solution, as I see it, is that blacks (just like any other
minority that wants to get a better position on the economic ladder)
need to acknowledge their societal condition and try to improve upon
it in whatever capacity possible. The government isn't going to solve the
poverty problem for blacks or anyone else.
To the poll question, Did Race Factor Into the Response to Hurricane Katrina?, I answered "Yes, without question" because race factors into everything. When we get to the question for debate, it's a bit more circular.
Did race matter in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina?
I tend to agree with the trend so far: this was more a matter of class than race. However, in this country, our poor are disproportionately black - and that is as much a result of racism as it is of any excuse people may come up with for blaming the victims.
In the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, poverty mattered - and, therefore, race mattered. Had it been West Palm Beach that was under water, with tens of thousands of wealthy (and, therefore predominantly white) inhabitants stranded, you can bet that FEMA would suddenly have become efficient, that food and water would have been dropped to those suffering within hours, and that rescue crews would have been on the ground almost immediately. You can bet that someone would have put George W Bush on a plane to the disaster site the next day. And you can bet that the death toll would have been nowhere near what it will be in New Orleans.
Did race matter in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina?
I tend to agree with the trend so far: this was more a matter of class than race. However, in this country, our poor are disproportionately black - and that is as much a result of racism as it is of any excuse people may come up with for blaming the victims.
In the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, poverty mattered - and, therefore, race mattered. Had it been West Palm Beach that was under water, with tens of thousands of wealthy (and, therefore predominantly white) inhabitants stranded, you can bet that FEMA would suddenly have become efficient, that food and water would have been dropped to those suffering within hours, and that rescue crews would have been on the ground almost immediately. You can bet that someone would have put George W Bush on a plane to the disaster site the next day. And you can bet that the death toll would have been nowhere near what it will be in New Orleans.
I think its more a political issue than a race issue, however there is overwhelming evidence that New Orleans is of little interest to the government, of any ilk.
http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.ad...906030909990004
Congress held an emergency session on a Sunday for Terry Schiavo and President Bush flew back from Crawford to sign this bill into legislation, yet it took him two days to return to Washington after the Katrina hurricane, whilst he was celebrating McCains birthday party and speaking to vets on the importance of the Iraq war. He then flys over NO , and states zero tolerance for looters.
Dick Cheney had not ended his vacation in Jackson Wy until perhaps today.
Condolezza Rice took a three day hiatus in NYC, after the hurricane, attending a broadway show, playing tennis with Monica Seles and shopping for shoes. When verbally accosted by an outraged citizen, she had that person removed by security.
Congress took their sweet time in getting back to work as well. Only 7 days after the fact did anyone show up for comment, only two showed up on the scene, Hillary Clinton and Bill Frist, but I commend them for watching enough news to know something had actually happened and DO something, unlike Brownie who seemed to be in a space-time warp of self congradulatory back patting BEFORE any real effort had begun.
Senator Rick Santorum blamed the victims and called for penalties for those that refuse evacuation. Here, here. Lets attempt to get blood from stone.
Barbara Bush showed her complete and total disconnection with real people by commenting that ' these people were underpriveleged anyway so this (the Astrodome) was working quite well for them', but added that it was 'scary' that they all wanted to stay in Texas.
Adding insult to injury, President Bush states that he will in the future sit on Trent Lotts porch of his rebuilt house 'on the Gulf'. Trent Lott being a Senator from Mississippi!
It has been a disgusting parade, but I dont know if it has been racist, just an overwhelming incompetance coupled with resounding apathy and post situational ignorance and insensitivity.
However, I have to aknowledge ny belief that had it been Texas or Florida or any other wealthy (white) area the effort would have been expedient, efficient and not so damned bungled.
I believe that we CAN see our government for what they are. The fable of Bush as 'man of the people' is certainley debunked, 'we are more secure now than before 911' is now a myth, Dick Cheney is a ghost never to be taken seriously again, but the real question for me is Congress.
I believe every Congressman and Senator should be removed from office. If they could not get up off their fat butts and end their vacations to get into emergency session before 7 days, they deserve to be fired.
QUOTE
WASHINGTON (AP) - A triumvirate of Republican power brokers may give Mississippi first dibs in the post-Hurricane Katrina grab for federal disaster funds even though the federal government focused its initial response to the storm on New Orleans.
The state's senior senator, Thad Cochran, is the new chairman of the Senate Appropriations Committee, the panel charged with determining how much and where the recovery money will be spent.
Its junior senator's home - a place where GOP leaders from across the county once bantered about politics from rocking chairs on a porch overlooking the Gulf of Mexico - was flattened by Katrina.
(snip)
Add Gov. Haley Barbour, a former Republican National Committee chairman, and Mississippi packs more political muscle than the other storm-ravaged states of Louisiana and Alabama.
(snip)
After touring the flattened Gulf Coast with lawmakers from the region, President Bush made it clear that Mississippi's senior pols have his ear.
"Trent was telling me that we've got to get that port of Pascagoula open so we can get ships of foreign crude oil to the refinery," Bush told reporters.
The state's senior senator, Thad Cochran, is the new chairman of the Senate Appropriations Committee, the panel charged with determining how much and where the recovery money will be spent.
Its junior senator's home - a place where GOP leaders from across the county once bantered about politics from rocking chairs on a porch overlooking the Gulf of Mexico - was flattened by Katrina.
(snip)
Add Gov. Haley Barbour, a former Republican National Committee chairman, and Mississippi packs more political muscle than the other storm-ravaged states of Louisiana and Alabama.
(snip)
After touring the flattened Gulf Coast with lawmakers from the region, President Bush made it clear that Mississippi's senior pols have his ear.
"Trent was telling me that we've got to get that port of Pascagoula open so we can get ships of foreign crude oil to the refinery," Bush told reporters.
http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.ad...906030909990004
Congress held an emergency session on a Sunday for Terry Schiavo and President Bush flew back from Crawford to sign this bill into legislation, yet it took him two days to return to Washington after the Katrina hurricane, whilst he was celebrating McCains birthday party and speaking to vets on the importance of the Iraq war. He then flys over NO , and states zero tolerance for looters.
Dick Cheney had not ended his vacation in Jackson Wy until perhaps today.
Condolezza Rice took a three day hiatus in NYC, after the hurricane, attending a broadway show, playing tennis with Monica Seles and shopping for shoes. When verbally accosted by an outraged citizen, she had that person removed by security.
Congress took their sweet time in getting back to work as well. Only 7 days after the fact did anyone show up for comment, only two showed up on the scene, Hillary Clinton and Bill Frist, but I commend them for watching enough news to know something had actually happened and DO something, unlike Brownie who seemed to be in a space-time warp of self congradulatory back patting BEFORE any real effort had begun.
Senator Rick Santorum blamed the victims and called for penalties for those that refuse evacuation. Here, here. Lets attempt to get blood from stone.
Barbara Bush showed her complete and total disconnection with real people by commenting that ' these people were underpriveleged anyway so this (the Astrodome) was working quite well for them', but added that it was 'scary' that they all wanted to stay in Texas.
Adding insult to injury, President Bush states that he will in the future sit on Trent Lotts porch of his rebuilt house 'on the Gulf'. Trent Lott being a Senator from Mississippi!
It has been a disgusting parade, but I dont know if it has been racist, just an overwhelming incompetance coupled with resounding apathy and post situational ignorance and insensitivity.
However, I have to aknowledge ny belief that had it been Texas or Florida or any other wealthy (white) area the effort would have been expedient, efficient and not so damned bungled.
I believe that we CAN see our government for what they are. The fable of Bush as 'man of the people' is certainley debunked, 'we are more secure now than before 911' is now a myth, Dick Cheney is a ghost never to be taken seriously again, but the real question for me is Congress.
I believe every Congressman and Senator should be removed from office. If they could not get up off their fat butts and end their vacations to get into emergency session before 7 days, they deserve to be fired.
Did race matter in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina?
Many people have claimed that race was a factor, but I'm rather confused at how a perception by some people can translate into a charge of racism without a sliver of evidence.
The federal response time is brought up, but there are certainly several other factors that can explain what happened....like incompetence. If the actions of Mayor Nagin (who is black) can be explained away as incompetence, is skin color the factor in charging racism in echelons higher than Nagin?
One can bet that if this disaster had happened somewhere like West Palm Beach, the response would have been immediate. But it's a fools bet unless you can back up the claim of hypothetical disparity.
I see little evidence, make that virtually no evidence that supports a theory that racism was a factor in the aftermath of Katrina. To claim otherwise, one has to be able to explain why, who would possibly benefit, and whether it was evil master plan racism or pure opportunistic racism.
I don't see any politician risking the PR nightmare and the loss of an economically viable and popular city just to stick it to a minority.
Additionally, thanks to our wonderful media, we hear virtually nothing about the devastated parishes just outside New Orleans whose racial demographic is the reverse of the city; about 65-70% white. Those people have gone just as long without rescue or aid in most cases, they just didn't have the media draw or sensationalism like the Superdome, looters and sniping.
Idioitic rantings by Kanye West aside, given the facts and the evidence, charges of racism affecting the aftermath of katrina fall flat.
Howard Dean echoed this hue and cry, and followed the same tact as the usual suspects, cry fowl, but don't offer any semblance of evidence.......just take my word for it......
Link
I still contend that NO's black mayor had more impact on who survived and who did not. Anyone charging him with racism??
Many people have claimed that race was a factor, but I'm rather confused at how a perception by some people can translate into a charge of racism without a sliver of evidence.
The federal response time is brought up, but there are certainly several other factors that can explain what happened....like incompetence. If the actions of Mayor Nagin (who is black) can be explained away as incompetence, is skin color the factor in charging racism in echelons higher than Nagin?
One can bet that if this disaster had happened somewhere like West Palm Beach, the response would have been immediate. But it's a fools bet unless you can back up the claim of hypothetical disparity.
I see little evidence, make that virtually no evidence that supports a theory that racism was a factor in the aftermath of Katrina. To claim otherwise, one has to be able to explain why, who would possibly benefit, and whether it was evil master plan racism or pure opportunistic racism.
I don't see any politician risking the PR nightmare and the loss of an economically viable and popular city just to stick it to a minority.
Additionally, thanks to our wonderful media, we hear virtually nothing about the devastated parishes just outside New Orleans whose racial demographic is the reverse of the city; about 65-70% white. Those people have gone just as long without rescue or aid in most cases, they just didn't have the media draw or sensationalism like the Superdome, looters and sniping.
Idioitic rantings by Kanye West aside, given the facts and the evidence, charges of racism affecting the aftermath of katrina fall flat.
Howard Dean echoed this hue and cry, and followed the same tact as the usual suspects, cry fowl, but don't offer any semblance of evidence.......just take my word for it......
QUOTE
Race was a factor in the rising death toll from Hurricane Katrina, Howard Dean told members of the National Baptist Convention of America on Wednesday at the group's annual meeting.
[...]
"We must ... come to terms with the ugly truth that skin color, age and economics played a deadly role in who survived and who did not," Dean said.
[...]
"We must ... come to terms with the ugly truth that skin color, age and economics played a deadly role in who survived and who did not," Dean said.
Link
I still contend that NO's black mayor had more impact on who survived and who did not. Anyone charging him with racism??
First off, thanks for a very well framed topic nighttimer! 
I have to echo dontreadonme's comments. Many, many of the victims in surrounding counties and states were white, but those images would never make it into Le Monde, the New York Times, or TV news because there wasn't the news-making looting, shooting, rape, and frankly the spectacle of humanity like the Superdome. I have to agree with the sentiment of the Rabbi Aryeh Spiro piece posted, all of my (white and black) friends, congregation, and co-workers are giving time, money and material help to the victims, regardless of their color. My employer has set up a foundation to help our employees in NO, and no one here asked what color they were before they donated.
I believe that we CAN see our government for what they are. The fable of Bush as 'man of the people' is certainley debunked...
Don't "the people" drive cars? How is fixing the refineries that supply the gas for the cars that we drive not "of the people"? Or are we just looking for excuses to say "Halliburton"
PS - Since they have 100,000 employees, I'm going to bet that at least 10,000 black people work for Halliburton, as long as we're discussing race.
PPS - I wish Kanye West would go back to producing. The John Legend album is great, but the ignorance and hate he spews is toxic.
I have to echo dontreadonme's comments. Many, many of the victims in surrounding counties and states were white, but those images would never make it into Le Monde, the New York Times, or TV news because there wasn't the news-making looting, shooting, rape, and frankly the spectacle of humanity like the Superdome. I have to agree with the sentiment of the Rabbi Aryeh Spiro piece posted, all of my (white and black) friends, congregation, and co-workers are giving time, money and material help to the victims, regardless of their color. My employer has set up a foundation to help our employees in NO, and no one here asked what color they were before they donated.
QUOTE(Artemise @ Sep 8 2005, 05:35 AM)
QUOTE
After touring the flattened Gulf Coast with lawmakers from the region, President Bush made it clear that Mississippi's senior pols have his ear.
"Trent was telling me that we've got to get that port of Pascagoula open so we can get ships of foreign crude oil to the refinery," Bush told reporters.
"Trent was telling me that we've got to get that port of Pascagoula open so we can get ships of foreign crude oil to the refinery," Bush told reporters.
I believe that we CAN see our government for what they are. The fable of Bush as 'man of the people' is certainley debunked...
Don't "the people" drive cars? How is fixing the refineries that supply the gas for the cars that we drive not "of the people"? Or are we just looking for excuses to say "Halliburton"
PS - Since they have 100,000 employees, I'm going to bet that at least 10,000 black people work for Halliburton, as long as we're discussing race.
PPS - I wish Kanye West would go back to producing. The John Legend album is great, but the ignorance and hate he spews is toxic.
QUOTE(carlistoswhey)
have to echo dontreadonme's comments. Many, many of the victims in surrounding counties and states were white, but those images would never make it into Le Monde, the New York Times, or TV news because there wasn't the news-making looting, shooting, rape, and frankly the spectacle of humanity like the Superdome.
QUOTE(DTOM)
Additionally, thanks to our wonderful media, we hear virtually nothing about the devastated parishes just outside New Orleans whose racial demographic is the reverse of the city; about 65-70% white. Those people have gone just as long without rescue or aid in most cases, they just didn't have the media draw or sensationalism like the Superdome, looters and sniping.
I'd like to add that the reasons for that "spectacle of humanity" were largely geographic. There is a reason TV cameras focused on New Orleans as opposed to Biloxi.
Biloxi is above water and New Orleans is below it.
Biloxi is damaged and New Orleans is uninhabitable.
The looting, shooting, and rape, didn't occur in a vacuum. Urban New Orleans caught the worst of the storm by far and that is why the media focused there.
Did race matter in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina?
I don't think so. It is just a sad coincidence that the biggest part of the poor population that couldn't flee from the hurricane was black. When I watched TV, I saw white people in the crowd too. I believe these people suffered just as much as anyone else, and I couldn't imagine that they received a better treatment because the color of their skin was white.
It has been said that if the population was white and republican, the situation would be entirely different. Well, that's an ASSUMPTION. There's no evidence for such claim as I know. And even if there was a record of it, it still wouldn't matter because what happened in the Southern States was unprecedented. In other words, Louisiana cannot be compared to Florida. Landscapes are different, cities are different, governments are different, etc.
I am getting very annoyed at people who are trying to use the color of the skin as a stigma for ongoing repression. Maybe my French background prevents me from understanding what is at stake in America... but I learnt since I was a toddler that there is only one human race and not one that's white, another black, and so forth. To segregate people in races is a racist mantra by definition.
Although they are different, all men are equal.
I don't think so. It is just a sad coincidence that the biggest part of the poor population that couldn't flee from the hurricane was black. When I watched TV, I saw white people in the crowd too. I believe these people suffered just as much as anyone else, and I couldn't imagine that they received a better treatment because the color of their skin was white.
It has been said that if the population was white and republican, the situation would be entirely different. Well, that's an ASSUMPTION. There's no evidence for such claim as I know. And even if there was a record of it, it still wouldn't matter because what happened in the Southern States was unprecedented. In other words, Louisiana cannot be compared to Florida. Landscapes are different, cities are different, governments are different, etc.
I am getting very annoyed at people who are trying to use the color of the skin as a stigma for ongoing repression. Maybe my French background prevents me from understanding what is at stake in America... but I learnt since I was a toddler that there is only one human race and not one that's white, another black, and so forth. To segregate people in races is a racist mantra by definition.
Although they are different, all men are equal.
I'm sure that there are hundreds of stories like this one, but many would rather focus on the negative.
QUOTE(reuters)
In the last week, Joseph Brant lost his apartment, walked by scores of dead in the streets, traversed pools of toxic water and endured an arduous journey to escape the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina in his hometown New Orleans.
On Sunday, he was praising the Lord, saying the ordeal was a test that ended up dispelling his lifelong distrust of white people and setting his life on a new course. He said he hitched a ride on Friday in a van driven by a group of white folks.
"Before this whole thing I had a complex about white people; this thing changed me forever," said Brant, 36, a truck driver who, like many of the refugees receiving public assistance in Houston, Texas, is black.
On Sunday, he was praising the Lord, saying the ordeal was a test that ended up dispelling his lifelong distrust of white people and setting his life on a new course. He said he hitched a ride on Friday in a van driven by a group of white folks.
"Before this whole thing I had a complex about white people; this thing changed me forever," said Brant, 36, a truck driver who, like many of the refugees receiving public assistance in Houston, Texas, is black.
BOF sums up my feelings quite well:
It was all politics and the obvious mass failings on multiple levels of government. I really don’t believe the slow response was based on race/social status. It was just a boondoggle of the highest order.
However if this had been a wealthier population where you would expect the well connected to live it’s not hard to imagine that phone calls would have be placed to the upper echelons of government and possibly expedited the relief efforts. Nothing new there.
What does bother me are the racial opportunists who are too quick to play the card. As figure heads their comments often shape opinions and they only perpetuate racial division.
It’s been said that in the darkest hours that the light often shines the brightest. I believe as Americans and as a majority we showed our true colors: the bond of red, white, and blue.
QUOTE
1. Bush’s brother was and is Governor of Florida.
2. Florida was one of those states up for grabs.
3. Bush was up for reelection and flying in on AF-1 with a sleigh full of goodies made a good photo-opt.
2. Florida was one of those states up for grabs.
3. Bush was up for reelection and flying in on AF-1 with a sleigh full of goodies made a good photo-opt.
It was all politics and the obvious mass failings on multiple levels of government. I really don’t believe the slow response was based on race/social status. It was just a boondoggle of the highest order.
However if this had been a wealthier population where you would expect the well connected to live it’s not hard to imagine that phone calls would have be placed to the upper echelons of government and possibly expedited the relief efforts. Nothing new there.
What does bother me are the racial opportunists who are too quick to play the card. As figure heads their comments often shape opinions and they only perpetuate racial division.
It’s been said that in the darkest hours that the light often shines the brightest. I believe as Americans and as a majority we showed our true colors: the bond of red, white, and blue.
QUOTE(nighttimer @ Sep 7 2005, 08:13 PM)
So, the question for debate is Did race matter in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina?
Being from Louisiana, I'd have to say that race has nearly nothing to do with the response, but more geography and American priorities in relation to political gain. Consider the fact that the Governor of Louisiana didn't necessarily jump through hoops either. The National Guard wasn't deployed in record time, and she wasn't on TV pleading for help as early as she really could've been.
There were/are a large number of displaced caucasians, numerous wealthy people who lived in areas devastated by the levees breaking, numerous people whom lived in the French qtr and didn't want to evacuate, etc. All of which do not fit the racially motivated argument.
The thing people seem to refuse to understand is that there were thousands of people whom owned automobiles, had the means to leave, but refused to leave their homes and belongings. Is that the state or Federal government's fault?. Of course not. Mayor Naglin gave the mandate to evacuate days prior to the arrival of Katrina. Those whom didn't have the means or ability to evacuate should've sought help, even from the media if necessary. This didn't happen. It's tragic that even one person died, or the sick and elderly were trapped. This is my home state and I'm extremely empathetic. However, the blame game shouldn't be used for partisan/racial purposes on this tragic occasion.
In summation, my argument is that had this been New York City or Washington, the seats of American commerce and Politics, different actions might've been taken. New Orleans' poverty level was nearly 1/3, is in the deep south, and is generally Louisiana isn't a state of political consequence.
Finally, nighttimer, Louisiana was/is a Bush state in the '04 election. Partisan-ship and racist ideology only goes as far as the factual information. Bush won this state, and the republican party even garnered 39% of the vote of people below the poverty level.
It's an awful tragedy... if I were Kanye West (or anyone else playing the race card), I'd be ashamed of myself. Spend the time sending money, playing board games with kids in shelters, or throwing sand bags on flooded streets. I'd imagine that the people standing shoulder to shoulder with you are just as likely to be white.
QUOTE(aevans176 @ Sep 8 2005, 02:58 PM)
Finally, nighttimer, Louisiana was/is a Bush state in the '04 election. Partisan-ship and racist ideology only goes as far as the factual information. Bush won this state, and the republican party even garnered 39% of the vote of people below the poverty level.
Not to pile on, but I hadn't noticed the "67% Republican" figure point in the original subject. For what it's worth, even Metro New Orleans voted for Bush by a slim margin. Pretty much only Orleans parish was for Kerry, at about 77%. with all the suburban parishes for Bush. Resulting in the metro area being pretty close to the national average of 52% or so.
Election Atlas
QUOTE
George W. Bush 291,662 49.8%
John Kerry 289,116 49.3%
Total 585,911
John Kerry 289,116 49.3%
Total 585,911
I'm still undecided if the Bush Administration is racist or incompetent. I'm leaning toward incompetent as it more obvious in this case rather than outright racial bigotry.
But I don't totally discount the notion of racism either. Perhaps one of the valuable lessons of Hurricane Katrina is it reminds Americans of how invisible the poor are in this nation. Double the invisibility if you happen to be black and poor as were many of the survivors in New Orleans.
It gives me no pleasure to think that the President of the United States might be a bigot. And I agree with others that class may be what trumps race in the response by local, state and government officials. Poor people aren't valued as much in this country. Not exactly a news flash.
I'm not going to join in the "Bash Kanye West" fest. He's a young man who was justifiably distressed and angered at how he saw people of his race being depicted, described and ignored by the mainstream media and Republican dominated government.
Condoleeza Rice is entitled to her opinion about how the Bush Administration deals with race. I can say with confidence that if the notion that George Bush doesn't care about black people is a minority opinion, Rice's belief that he does is a minority opinion within a minority.
But I don't totally discount the notion of racism either. Perhaps one of the valuable lessons of Hurricane Katrina is it reminds Americans of how invisible the poor are in this nation. Double the invisibility if you happen to be black and poor as were many of the survivors in New Orleans.
It gives me no pleasure to think that the President of the United States might be a bigot. And I agree with others that class may be what trumps race in the response by local, state and government officials. Poor people aren't valued as much in this country. Not exactly a news flash.
I'm not going to join in the "Bash Kanye West" fest. He's a young man who was justifiably distressed and angered at how he saw people of his race being depicted, described and ignored by the mainstream media and Republican dominated government.
Condoleeza Rice is entitled to her opinion about how the Bush Administration deals with race. I can say with confidence that if the notion that George Bush doesn't care about black people is a minority opinion, Rice's belief that he does is a minority opinion within a minority.
I do not feel race was a factor. What was at play or distinguished those who were stranded to those who were not was a matter of public and private. Those who relied on..out of necessity or desire..the public means of assistance and planning for this disaster were horribly terribly failed.
Those who relied on their own private resources, and private systems of evacuation or emergency planning were not.
Do those who are wealthy have more funds or connections to assist them in their private means of evacuation and/or rescue...yes. But I would imagine many others were capable of this too.
I think cloaking this failure of our government from all levels and all denominations as a problem or example of race relations will do us all a great disservice and we should not allow this failure to be so easily excused or reasoned. I feel grasping at explanations like racism allows the explanation of this event far too much convenience. It was not blacks who our government failed it was Americans and if you think that white Republicans faired any better I think you are very very wrong. Don't let them divide us like this.
I for one won't allow this sort of logic to cloud my interpretation of this event. I am going to expect a lot more than just racism as a reason things happened they way they happen in New Orleans.
I will say one thing...poor people ( I was one once) are let down at every single public level you can imagine..their schools, their parks, their streets, their neighborhood development and upkeep, their water, their police, security and medical needs.
This is just a reality here in America and we saw how this failure of public services plays out every day in the poor neighborhoods in America on a very grand and horrifying scale.
I know people keep saying our government failed us..and it did I agree I just think that failure occurred long before Katrina.
Those who relied on their own private resources, and private systems of evacuation or emergency planning were not.
Do those who are wealthy have more funds or connections to assist them in their private means of evacuation and/or rescue...yes. But I would imagine many others were capable of this too.
I think cloaking this failure of our government from all levels and all denominations as a problem or example of race relations will do us all a great disservice and we should not allow this failure to be so easily excused or reasoned. I feel grasping at explanations like racism allows the explanation of this event far too much convenience. It was not blacks who our government failed it was Americans and if you think that white Republicans faired any better I think you are very very wrong. Don't let them divide us like this.
I for one won't allow this sort of logic to cloud my interpretation of this event. I am going to expect a lot more than just racism as a reason things happened they way they happen in New Orleans.
I will say one thing...poor people ( I was one once) are let down at every single public level you can imagine..their schools, their parks, their streets, their neighborhood development and upkeep, their water, their police, security and medical needs.
This is just a reality here in America and we saw how this failure of public services plays out every day in the poor neighborhoods in America on a very grand and horrifying scale.
I know people keep saying our government failed us..and it did I agree I just think that failure occurred long before Katrina.
To answer your question as to whetheer race was an issue I would like to know if the assertions in this post from another site have any truth. If so the answer is an embarassed yes.
http://matewan.squarespace.com/journal/200...artial-law.html
I hope there is no truth in this for the nation's sake.
http://matewan.squarespace.com/journal/200...artial-law.html
I hope there is no truth in this for the nation's sake.
Regardless of whether there was racism involved and to what extent, it seems that the perception is there, a perception the administration will have to deal with.
According to the much respected Pew Research Foundation in a report released today:
http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?ReportID=255
According to the much respected Pew Research Foundation in a report released today:
QUOTE
Half of those polled (50%) say they have felt angry because of what happened in areas hard hit by the hurricane. But overall opinion on this measure obscures a substantial racial divide in reactions to the disaster as many as 70% of African Americans say they have felt angry, compared with 46% of whites. Blacks are twice as likely as whites to know people directly affected by the hurricane and are generally much more critical of the government's response to the crisis.
In addition, blacks and whites draw very different lessons from the tragedy. Seven-in-ten blacks (71%) say the disaster shows that racial inequality remains a major problem in the country; a majority of whites (56%) say this was not a particularly important lesson of the disaster. More striking, there is widespread agreement among blacks that the government's response to the crisis would have been faster if most of the storm's victims had been white; fully two-thirds of African Americans express that view. Whites, by an even wider margin (77%-17%), feel this would not have made a difference in the government's response.
In addition, blacks and whites draw very different lessons from the tragedy. Seven-in-ten blacks (71%) say the disaster shows that racial inequality remains a major problem in the country; a majority of whites (56%) say this was not a particularly important lesson of the disaster. More striking, there is widespread agreement among blacks that the government's response to the crisis would have been faster if most of the storm's victims had been white; fully two-thirds of African Americans express that view. Whites, by an even wider margin (77%-17%), feel this would not have made a difference in the government's response.
http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?ReportID=255
QUOTE(BoF @ Sep 8 2005, 09:40 PM)
Regardless of whether there was racism involved and to what extent, it seems that the perception is there, a perception the administration will have to deal with.
Which raises another question...Should our government officials (or anyone for that matter) react to, enact laws, execute policies, and/or extract and then spend funds based upon unproven and/or false "perceptions"?
Or should they encourage and insist that facts be gathered and reality be determined prior to reaching any verdicts.
Racism is a pretty serious accusation. Especially in the context of official governmental actions. We are talking about the actions and/or inactions of potentionally thousands of government employees. Laws may or may not have been broken. Crimes may or may not have been commited. It's one thing to go on TV and make vague, overarching accusations. It takes a bit more (facts) to support actual charges. I for one would like to see those accusing racism here name some names and show cause that real human individuals should face criminal charges.
To answer the question for debate -- "Did race matter?" -- directly, the only obvious answer is yes. This is not at all the same as accusing anybody of overt racism. The plain fact is that race matters in just about every aspect of American life, whether we want it to or not.
The horror in New Orleans is a particularly grim reminder of the fact that Americans of different races live in different ways. Yes, I know that I am greatly oversimplifying, and that we should never apply generalizations about groups to individuals. But I can't help but wonder why certain areas of major cities in the United States are virtually all white or virtually all black or virtually all brown. And why the white areas are usually more pleasant than the other areas.
I want to be careful to say here that I am not accusing anybody of direct racism. The vast majority of Americans see this, quite rightly, as stupid and evil. However, there is no doubt in my mind that there are many structures in American society that are racist -- mindlessly racist, in the most literal sense. Just as a hurricane is mindlessly destructive, something in American society is mindlessly racist. Like a hurricane, we should do everything possible to minimize the damage that structural racism can do.
The horror in New Orleans is a particularly grim reminder of the fact that Americans of different races live in different ways. Yes, I know that I am greatly oversimplifying, and that we should never apply generalizations about groups to individuals. But I can't help but wonder why certain areas of major cities in the United States are virtually all white or virtually all black or virtually all brown. And why the white areas are usually more pleasant than the other areas.
I want to be careful to say here that I am not accusing anybody of direct racism. The vast majority of Americans see this, quite rightly, as stupid and evil. However, there is no doubt in my mind that there are many structures in American society that are racist -- mindlessly racist, in the most literal sense. Just as a hurricane is mindlessly destructive, something in American society is mindlessly racist. Like a hurricane, we should do everything possible to minimize the damage that structural racism can do.
QUOTE(Dontreadonme @ Sep 8 2005, 09:06 AM)
One can bet that if this disaster had happened somewhere like West Palm Beach, the response would have been immediate. But it's a fools bet unless you can back up the claim of hypothetical disparity.
Okay, let's not speak hypothetically. The last time West Palm Beach was hit by a hurricane was last September. The day before landfall, the DHS issued a press release detailing their preparations for the storm ("Department of Homeland Security Prepares for Hurricane Frances"), including:
- Homeland Security officials are fully coordinating preparations and holding daily video conference calls with our federal partners, governors, and other state and local officials in possible affected states.
- FEMA's Hurricane Liaison Team is activated at the National Hurricane Center in Miami, Florida, to assist with advisories, information coordination and emergency evacuation activities.
- FEMA has deployed an Advanced Emergency Response Team to the Florida and Georgia State Emergency Operation Centers to facilitate state requests for assistance. Rapid Needs Assessment Teams have also been deployed to these states to provide support as necessary.
- FEMA has deployed emergency response teams and pre-staged critical commodities such as ice, water, meals and tarps in various strategic locations for immediate delivery to residents in affected areas.
- The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, at FEMA’s request, is coordinating [in advance] the staging of 100 truckloads of water and 100 truckloads of ice.
- A first shipment of 30,000 tarps is en route to Atlanta, Georgia to be pre-staged for delivery to areas affected by Hurricane Frances once the storm has cleared.
- The Department's Information Analysis and Infrastructure Protection unit is assessing the vulnerabilities and potential impact to critical infrastructure located in the storm's projected path.
This year, by contrast, the DHS issued a press release the day after Katrina's landfall, detailing their response to the storm ("United States Government Response to the Aftermath Of Hurricane Katrina").
Last year, with Charley, with Frances, and with Ivan, it was all about "preparedness" and "immediate action" (look at the DHS Press Room). This year, with Katrina, it's all about "response" - and damned slow response, at that. "One of these things," as they used to say on Sesame Street, "is not like the others." Is it because the Department of Homeland Security, FEMA, and the White House have totally fallen apart in the past year? Or can one safely bet that, had this happened in West Palm Beach again, the preparation and response would have been similar? If so, one has to ask why?
OK, great points about Palm Beach. Let's see if we can draw an analogy between Hurricane Francis that hit West Palm Beach and Katrina.
26 Aug: The Mississippi Valley Division of the Army Corps of Engineers activates teams along the Mississippi and Louisiana Gulf Coasts to prepare for a potential response to Hurricane Katrina. Link
26 Aug: Governor Blanco declares a State of Emergency for all of Louisiana. The President issues a State of Emergency declaration and directs DHS and FEMA to coordinate disaster relief efforts. Link
27 Aug: National Hurricane Center Director Max Mayfield calls Mayor Nagin at his home telling him that a mandatory evacuation was needed. He also calls Governor Blanco informing her of the strength of the Hurricane and its potential damage. Link
27 Aug: FEMA moves response teams to Shreveport, La., and Jackson, Miss., and stockpiling relief supplies in Atlanta and Denton, Texas.
28 Aug: FEMA positions stockpiles of food, water and medical supplies throughout Louisiana and Mississippi more than a day before Katrina made landfall. Link
28 Aug: FEMA has deployed USAR teams from Tennessee, Missouri and Texas to stage in Shreveport, LA.. USAR teams from Indiana and Ohio are staged in Meridian, MS. Two teams each from Florida and Virginia and one team from Maryland are on alert at their home stations. A total of 18 DMATs have been deployed to staging areas in Houston, Anniston and Memphis. There are 9 full DMATs (35 members per team) and 9 strike teams (5 members per team) in these staging areas.
29 Aug: Katrina makes landfall.
Now let's compare the two cities themselves:
West Palm - 58% white, 32.2% black Total pop - 82103 Link
New Orleans - 28% white, 67% black Total pop - 484674 Link
Now add to this to sheer logistical difficulties of getting into the flooded city of New Orleans......I'm failing to see the smoking gun of racism, or the glaring disparity of preparation due to race. How does your highlighting of the difference in press releases of two days equal charges or racism? Or even classism? There's always going to be better ways of doing things, and time and again the Bush administration has failed in the lessons learned department.
Maybe it's because I'm not one of those who believes that race factors into everything, but to charge the preparation or response to Katrina by the feds as race based, to be fair, you also have to consider that to have been the failings of the black mayor, black police chief and majority black city council of New Orleans. Was it a race based decision by the state of Louisiana to deny entry into the Superdome of the American Red Cross? Supplies and aid really didn't get into the Waveland-Gulfport-Biloxi area any quicker than NOLA, but it was far easier to gain access to the majority of the affected area, I saw that first hand. FEMA is being run on cronyism and bureaucracy, when it should be run like a SWAT team. If Bush had any sense, he would fire Brown and persuade General Honore to retire from active duty and head up FEMA.
I just don't see race as a factor in any of this. There's a cornucopia of answers that are far more probable than race of class.
26 Aug: The Mississippi Valley Division of the Army Corps of Engineers activates teams along the Mississippi and Louisiana Gulf Coasts to prepare for a potential response to Hurricane Katrina. Link
26 Aug: Governor Blanco declares a State of Emergency for all of Louisiana. The President issues a State of Emergency declaration and directs DHS and FEMA to coordinate disaster relief efforts. Link
27 Aug: National Hurricane Center Director Max Mayfield calls Mayor Nagin at his home telling him that a mandatory evacuation was needed. He also calls Governor Blanco informing her of the strength of the Hurricane and its potential damage. Link
27 Aug: FEMA moves response teams to Shreveport, La., and Jackson, Miss., and stockpiling relief supplies in Atlanta and Denton, Texas.
28 Aug: FEMA positions stockpiles of food, water and medical supplies throughout Louisiana and Mississippi more than a day before Katrina made landfall. Link
28 Aug: FEMA has deployed USAR teams from Tennessee, Missouri and Texas to stage in Shreveport, LA.. USAR teams from Indiana and Ohio are staged in Meridian, MS. Two teams each from Florida and Virginia and one team from Maryland are on alert at their home stations. A total of 18 DMATs have been deployed to staging areas in Houston, Anniston and Memphis. There are 9 full DMATs (35 members per team) and 9 strike teams (5 members per team) in these staging areas.
29 Aug: Katrina makes landfall.
Now let's compare the two cities themselves:
West Palm - 58% white, 32.2% black Total pop - 82103 Link
New Orleans - 28% white, 67% black Total pop - 484674 Link
Now add to this to sheer logistical difficulties of getting into the flooded city of New Orleans......I'm failing to see the smoking gun of racism, or the glaring disparity of preparation due to race. How does your highlighting of the difference in press releases of two days equal charges or racism? Or even classism? There's always going to be better ways of doing things, and time and again the Bush administration has failed in the lessons learned department.
Maybe it's because I'm not one of those who believes that race factors into everything, but to charge the preparation or response to Katrina by the feds as race based, to be fair, you also have to consider that to have been the failings of the black mayor, black police chief and majority black city council of New Orleans. Was it a race based decision by the state of Louisiana to deny entry into the Superdome of the American Red Cross? Supplies and aid really didn't get into the Waveland-Gulfport-Biloxi area any quicker than NOLA, but it was far easier to gain access to the majority of the affected area, I saw that first hand. FEMA is being run on cronyism and bureaucracy, when it should be run like a SWAT team. If Bush had any sense, he would fire Brown and persuade General Honore to retire from active duty and head up FEMA.
I just don't see race as a factor in any of this. There's a cornucopia of answers that are far more probable than race of class.
Did race matter in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina?
I can't help but notice that this question is posed in the past tense... Should it not rather read, Does race matter in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina?
It certainly seems so to me. It seems race is being made into a very great issue in fact.
I don't have much to add to this observation beyond posting a link to another forum where questions are being raised as to the way the refugee's are being treated by FEMA... one part in particular made me think of this thread:
...and I wonder at what this statement actually means.
I can't help but notice that this question is posed in the past tense... Should it not rather read, Does race matter in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina?
It certainly seems so to me. It seems race is being made into a very great issue in fact.
I don't have much to add to this observation beyond posting a link to another forum where questions are being raised as to the way the refugee's are being treated by FEMA... one part in particular made me think of this thread:
QUOTE
He then points to the vegetables and fruit. "You'll have to take that back as well. It looks like you've got about 10 apples there. I'm about to bring in 40 men. What would we do then?"
My mother, in her sweet, soft voice says, "Quarter them?"
"No ma'am. FEMA said no...
It could cause a riot. You don't understand the type of people that are about to come here...."
Link. My mother, in her sweet, soft voice says, "Quarter them?"
"No ma'am. FEMA said no...
It could cause a riot. You don't understand the type of people that are about to come here...."
...and I wonder at what this statement actually means.
QUOTE(moif @ Sep 9 2005, 12:43 PM)
It seems race is being made into a very great issue in fact.
Indeed, and we can see who is making it such a great issue.
Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney, D-GA on the floor of the house of the Superdome and Convention Centers:
QUOTE
The evacuees were mostly African-Americans, as I saw families ripped apart, I could only think about slavery. They look like concentration camps"
The Rev. Jesse Jackson:
QUOTE
The Rev. Jesse Jackson said racial injustice and indifference to black suffering was at the root of the disaster response.
"In this same city of New Orleans where slave ships landed," he said, "where the legacy of 246 years of slavery and 100 years of Jim Crow discrimination, that legacy is unbroken today."
"In this same city of New Orleans where slave ships landed," he said, "where the legacy of 246 years of slavery and 100 years of Jim Crow discrimination, that legacy is unbroken today."
Link
Rhetoric is the only currency some people know, but it's quite uncalled for by what should be responsible public figures and elected leaders.
QUOTE(moif @ Sep 9 2005, 01:43 PM)
Did race matter in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina?
I can't help but notice that this question is posed in the past tense... Should it not rather read, Does race matter in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina?
It certainly seems so to me. It seems race is being made into a very great issue in fact.
I don't have much to add to this observation beyond posting a link to another forum where questions are being raised as to the way the refugee's are being treated by FEMA... one part in particular made me think of this thread:
...and I wonder at what this statement actually means.
I can't help but notice that this question is posed in the past tense... Should it not rather read, Does race matter in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina?
It certainly seems so to me. It seems race is being made into a very great issue in fact.
I don't have much to add to this observation beyond posting a link to another forum where questions are being raised as to the way the refugee's are being treated by FEMA... one part in particular made me think of this thread:
QUOTE
He then points to the vegetables and fruit. "You'll have to take that back as well. It looks like you've got about 10 apples there. I'm about to bring in 40 men. What would we do then?"
My mother, in her sweet, soft voice says, "Quarter them?"
"No ma'am. FEMA said no...
It could cause a riot. You don't understand the type of people that are about to come here...."
Link. My mother, in her sweet, soft voice says, "Quarter them?"
"No ma'am. FEMA said no...
It could cause a riot. You don't understand the type of people that are about to come here...."
...and I wonder at what this statement actually means.
I see nothing in that story indicating the writer is black. Also, nothing indicating that blacks were specifically targeted or treated differently than others. In fact, the post does contains neither the word "black" nor "color" nor "minority".
If true, this story is certainly an eye opener that the evacuees are not going to some posh surroundings (at least in this case). It doesn't seem racist though.
The key differences I see between the preparations, DTOM, are in the first two bullet points of the September 3, 2004 release. Before the storm even struck, "Homeland Security officials [were] fully coordinating preparations and holding daily video conference calls with our federal partners, governors, and other state and local officials" in Florida and "FEMA's Hurricane Liaison Team [was] activated... to assist with... emergency evacuation activities." If they were doing the same in Louisiana, why didn't Homeland Security officials say something to the black mayor, the black police chief, or the majority black city council of New Orleans in one of their daily conference calls? Why wasn't FEMA's Hurricane Liaison Team assisting with emergency evacuation? Why is that responsibility now being placed in the lap of the black mayor, the black police chief, and the majority black city council?
The main failures here seemed to be in terms of coordination of efforts and resources and the effective evacuation of the residents. In West Palm Beach, "Homeland Security officials" and "FEMA's Hurricane Liaison Team" were either in charge or closely monitoring the efforts. In New Orleans, Homeland Security officials and FEMA are playing the blame game. This time last year, was anyone here questioning the responsibility of Lois J. Frankel in relation to the forty-nine Frances-related deaths in Florida?
I'm not claiming the failure of the DHS to coordinate preparations with state and local officials or the failure of FEMA to assist with evacuation in New Orleans as they had done in West Palm Beach was based on racism. But it was based on something. In Florida, they got it right. A year later, in New Orleans, they didn't. To me, "Last year we were in daily contact with the governor and the mayor, this year let's leave them out of the loop; last year we assisted with emergency evacuation, this year let's not" is more than just a failure in the "lessons learned department".
Two more stats for you:
West Palm: median income - $35,774; below poverty level - 14.5%
New Orleans: median income - $27,133; below poverty level - 23.7%
Whatever was behind deciding not to coordinate daily efforts with local officials and deciding not to assist with emergency evacuation procedures, I agree: Brown should be booted and Honore would make an excellent replacement.
Amlord: I believe that moif's quote was focusing on "You don't understand the type of people that are about to come here." But you're right: there's nothing to suggest that it was the class or race of the "type of people" in question. It could have been a reference to the "type of people" who, after five days without food, had been passing MREs on to those in even more desperate need than themselves.
The main failures here seemed to be in terms of coordination of efforts and resources and the effective evacuation of the residents. In West Palm Beach, "Homeland Security officials" and "FEMA's Hurricane Liaison Team" were either in charge or closely monitoring the efforts. In New Orleans, Homeland Security officials and FEMA are playing the blame game. This time last year, was anyone here questioning the responsibility of Lois J. Frankel in relation to the forty-nine Frances-related deaths in Florida?
I'm not claiming the failure of the DHS to coordinate preparations with state and local officials or the failure of FEMA to assist with evacuation in New Orleans as they had done in West Palm Beach was based on racism. But it was based on something. In Florida, they got it right. A year later, in New Orleans, they didn't. To me, "Last year we were in daily contact with the governor and the mayor, this year let's leave them out of the loop; last year we assisted with emergency evacuation, this year let's not" is more than just a failure in the "lessons learned department".
Two more stats for you:
West Palm: median income - $35,774; below poverty level - 14.5%
New Orleans: median income - $27,133; below poverty level - 23.7%
Whatever was behind deciding not to coordinate daily efforts with local officials and deciding not to assist with emergency evacuation procedures, I agree: Brown should be booted and Honore would make an excellent replacement.
Amlord: I believe that moif's quote was focusing on "You don't understand the type of people that are about to come here." But you're right: there's nothing to suggest that it was the class or race of the "type of people" in question. It could have been a reference to the "type of people" who, after five days without food, had been passing MREs on to those in even more desperate need than themselves.
I don't understand why we are concerned about whether or not it had anything to do with race or class or any form of discrimination. Yet, I have to agree that more and more these days we are discriminated against to get certain jobs. It's becoming harder for a white middle-class (in my opinion there shouldn't be classes) male to get a job than it is for a female in the same "bracket" to get the same entry level job.
We are so ready to place blame we seem to pass up on the most important issue at hand: Saving lives and reclaiming property. Regardless of race, religion, sex, etc.
It is a sign of the times: Evil is Good, Good is Evil.
Hence: Democrats: "Good" Republicans:"Evil"
Is my point understood?
We are so ready to place blame we seem to pass up on the most important issue at hand: Saving lives and reclaiming property. Regardless of race, religion, sex, etc.
It is a sign of the times: Evil is Good, Good is Evil.
Hence: Democrats: "Good" Republicans:"Evil"
Is my point understood?
This thread is specifically about race and hurrican Katrina. Let's be sure to stay focused and not go off-topic. 
DEBATE:
Did race matter in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina?
DEBATE:
Did race matter in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina?
QUOTE(Amlord)
I see nothing in that story indicating the writer is black. Also, nothing indicating that blacks were specifically targeted or treated differently than others. In fact, the post does contains neither the word "black" nor "color" nor "minority".
If true, this story is certainly an eye opener that the evacuees are not going to some posh surroundings (at least in this case). It doesn't seem racist though.
If true, this story is certainly an eye opener that the evacuees are not going to some posh surroundings (at least in this case). It doesn't seem racist though.
Ha! It never occured to me that the writer might be black.. I just assumed he was white. I guess I'm as guilty of making assumptions as any one else.
But my point was the comment made by the FEMA official to the extent that the people being 'evacuated' from the flooded area were 'that kind of people'.
I don't know what he meant by 'that' kind of people, but seen against the debate in this thread, I think its not hard to imagine he is refering to people of a certain class, or skin colour...
QUOTE(nighttimer @ Sep 8 2005, 06:16 PM)
I'm not going to join in the "Bash Kanye West" fest. He's a young man who was justifiably distressed and angered at how he saw people of his race being depicted, described and ignored by the mainstream media and Republican dominated government.
1 - People of "his race" helped elect the mayor, city council and governor, but they too failed "his race" all the same.
2 - Kanye was among the slew of anti-Bush musicians opening for the NFL game last night. Sometimes, Instant Karma Gonna Getcha
QUOTE(boston globe)
... [Kayne] West did one tune, ''Heard 'Em Say." Yet it was disconcerting to hear his name booed loudly by Patriots fans who evidently didn't appreciate his nationally televised comment the other night on a Hurricane Katrina benefit that President Bush ''doesn't care about black people." The boos were thunderous and lasted for much of his number.
QUOTE(from dtom's post)
The Rev. Jesse Jackson said racial injustice and indifference to black suffering was at the root of the disaster response.
"In this same city of New Orleans where slave ships landed," he said, "where the legacy of 246 years of slavery and 100 years of Jim Crow discrimination, that legacy is unbroken today."
Jesse is making the NY Times editorial page look accurate by comparison. Let me analyze Jesse's logic:"In this same city of New Orleans where slave ships landed," he said, "where the legacy of 246 years of slavery and 100 years of Jim Crow discrimination, that legacy is unbroken today."
- After Plessy v. Ferguson, "separate but equal" was the law of the land. (Harlan's dissent in Plessy actually named "black inhabitants of New Orleans" who fought for our Nation's freedom as deserving rights)
- Aside from segregation, many "Jim Crow" laws kept black people from voting in the South - poll taxes, grandfather clauses, whites-only primaries, etc.
- The mayor of New Orleans is a black man, along with most of the city council.
- Therefore ... the legacy of Jim Crow and slavery is unbroken in New Orleans today. What an ignorant statement.
QUOTE(carlitoswhey @ Sep 9 2005, 05:06 PM)
QUOTE(nighttimer @ Sep 8 2005, 06:16 PM)
I'm not going to join in the "Bash Kanye West" fest. He's a young man who was justifiably distressed and angered at how he saw people of his race being depicted, described and ignored by the mainstream media and Republican dominated government.
1 - People of "his race" helped elect the mayor, city council and governor, but they too failed "his race" all the same.
2 - Kanye was among the slew of anti-Bush musicians opening for the NFL game last night. Sometimes, Instant Karma Gonna Getcha
QUOTE(boston globe)
... [Kayne] West did one tune, ''Heard 'Em Say." Yet it was disconcerting to hear his name booed loudly by Patriots fans who evidently didn't appreciate his nationally televised comment the other night on a Hurricane Katrina benefit that President Bush ''doesn't care about black people." The boos were thunderous and lasted for much of his number.
I could care less what a crowd of football-crazed Patriots fans thought of Kanye West's remarks. You get groupthink, not critical thinking, from the crowd and especially crowds forteified by copious amounts of alcohol.
Sometimes, the bravest thing you can do is to have an opinion that's different from the masses. As Congress readies yet another tax cut for the wealthy it's been evident from the outset that the lives of poor people don't matter to Bush and his gang of Republicans. Hurricane Katrina just washed that reality back into the public eye for all to see.
I applaud Kanye West for saying out loud what a lot of people were thinking silently. That a bunch of football nuts didn't appreciate West's speaking a hard truth doesn't make it any less valid.
America is not a Third World country. For Bush to joke about rebuilding Trent Lott's (second) home, congratulate a political hack like Michael Brown as doing "a heck of a job" one day and remove him from overseeing the recovery efforts of FEMA the next and to hear the Bush women (Barbara, Laura and Condoleeza) rally to his side decrying the very idea that race factored into the government's sluggish and inadequate response makes me absolutely sick.
Bush has plumbed new depths of incompetence by his totail failure of leadership in the aftermath of America's greatest disaster since 9/11.
During a discussion at lunch today with a racially mixed group we were watching CNN and Laura Bush vehemently denying race had anything to do with the government's response. Most of the blacks sneered at this and most of the whites concurred with the First Lady.
One young lady asked me, "Why do you see a natural disaster in terms of race?"
I replied, "When race is so obvious in what happened, how can you not?"
Wertz as a Florida resident I would have thought your demographic grasp of that state would have been a little bit better. Having lived in Florida myself for nearly 10 yrs I can say there are a whole lotta really poor people there..black and white.
And I have been to West Palm Beach area many times as my friend's family owns a home in Singer Island and there are some frighteningly poor neighborhoods there...I would imagine that if such a disastrous storm was to hit poor people..black and white..would suffer.
Also being a resident of Florida I would have thought you were aware of the problems and operational failures that occurred with FEMA and hurricane Frances.
How FEMA disaster relief went wrong
My brother's home got completely destroyed last year in Orlando. Everything..furniture, clothing, electronics...all of it. It had to be torn down and it is still in the process of being rebuilt. Because him and his wife work, own their own home, pay their home insurance and live a normal middle class life they saw not one penny from FEMA . His home is being rebuilt with his own private funds...he had to remortgage and borrow money from family. Do you feel my brother's race allowed for this complete void of assistance from FEMA? Do you think his class permitted him superior government help or less?
And I have been to West Palm Beach area many times as my friend's family owns a home in Singer Island and there are some frighteningly poor neighborhoods there...I would imagine that if such a disastrous storm was to hit poor people..black and white..would suffer.
Also being a resident of Florida I would have thought you were aware of the problems and operational failures that occurred with FEMA and hurricane Frances.
How FEMA disaster relief went wrong
My brother's home got completely destroyed last year in Orlando. Everything..furniture, clothing, electronics...all of it. It had to be torn down and it is still in the process of being rebuilt. Because him and his wife work, own their own home, pay their home insurance and live a normal middle class life they saw not one penny from FEMA . His home is being rebuilt with his own private funds...he had to remortgage and borrow money from family. Do you feel my brother's race allowed for this complete void of assistance from FEMA? Do you think his class permitted him superior government help or less?
QUOTE(nighttimer @ Sep 9 2005, 06:19 PM)
America is not a Third World country. For Bush to joke about rebuilding Trent
Lott's (second) home, congratulate a political hack like Michael Brown as doing
"a heck of a job" one day and remove him from overseeing the recovery efforts
of FEMA the next and to hear the Bush women (Barbara, Laura and Condoleeza)
rally to his side decrying the very idea that race factored into the government's
sluggish and inadequate response makes me absolutely sick.
Lott's (second) home, congratulate a political hack like Michael Brown as doing
"a heck of a job" one day and remove him from overseeing the recovery efforts
of FEMA the next and to hear the Bush women (Barbara, Laura and Condoleeza)
rally to his side decrying the very idea that race factored into the government's
sluggish and inadequate response makes me absolutely sick.
America may not be a third world country, as you say. It's also not a country
to live in and expect the government to take care of you. Those who succeed
in the U.S. are those who find a way to make it happen for themselves - PERIOD.
Complaining about the injustices and racial inequalities does not change anything.
You can point the finger at George Bush for not caring about blacks. But the
truth is, individuals of every color must be accountable for their successes as
well as failures. We haven't even touched on why so many blacks are poor
to begin with. Could it be because they aren't living up to their potential?
OR is it the government, and more specifically, white people in general, who
must be at fault?
I happen to believe that GWB is one of the absolute worst presidents we've ever
had. But, it is unfair to play the race card in the Katrina disaster. It's something
that has been overused and abused and it helps noone's cause - especially yours.
QUOTE
During a discussion at lunch today with a racially mixed group we were
watching CNN and Laura Bush vehemently denying race had anything to do with
the government's response. Most of the blacks sneered at this and most of the
whites concurred with the First Lady.
watching CNN and Laura Bush vehemently denying race had anything to do with
the government's response. Most of the blacks sneered at this and most of the
whites concurred with the First Lady.
Welcome to America! Every person is entitled to their opinion. Do you
have proof that whatever mistakes were made by the government were racially
motivated? If so, I'd love to see that proof.
QUOTE(bucket @ Sep 9 2005, 07:09 PM)
My brother's home got completely destroyed last year in Orlando.
Everything..furniture, clothing, electronics...all of it. It had to be torn down and
it is still in the process of being rebuilt. Because him and his wife work, own
their own home, pay their home insurance and live a normal middle class life
they saw not one penny from FEMA . His home is being rebuilt with his own
private funds...he had to remortgage and borrow money from family. Do
you feel my brother's race allowed for this complete void of assistance from
FEMA? Do you think his class permitted him superior government help or less?
Everything..furniture, clothing, electronics...all of it. It had to be torn down and
it is still in the process of being rebuilt. Because him and his wife work, own
their own home, pay their home insurance and live a normal middle class life
they saw not one penny from FEMA . His home is being rebuilt with his own
private funds...he had to remortgage and borrow money from family. Do
you feel my brother's race allowed for this complete void of assistance from
FEMA? Do you think his class permitted him superior government help or less?
My heart goes out to your brother. He is being penalized for being a productive
member of society. Meanwhile, thousands of people who were unemployed
(and unemployable) will reap any available benefits. But because a large portion
of the affected citizens are black we mustn't discuss it, lest we be termed racist.
QUOTE(nighttimer)
I replied, "When race is so obvious in what happened, how can you not?"
But how is race so obvious in what happened?
It seems to me that race is being made into an issue after the fact. Most of the people left behind appear to have chosen to stay behind... and although many are black, not all of them are... so how is it a racial issue? Are you suggesting poor white, hispanic and Asian people don't count?
The response by the authorities, or elements of the authorities may have racial over tones, but since most of the local authorities in New Orleans are themselves black, then how does race play an issue?
It really seems to me that a lot of black people in the USA are making this into a racial question because they can score political points by doing so. That by sneering at the 'SUV drivers' who were able to flee the city in time (as I saw from Chris Rock) the weight of blame is being shifted away from the belligerence and stubborness that left so many people in the city, 'braving the storm' and away from the black mayor and his councillors who totally failed to evacuate the city (see carlitoswhey's sig for example) and who was very quick to point the finger at 'the feds'.
Race is an issue here, but it doesn't seem to have anything to do with Hurricane Katrina, President Bush or 'SUV drivers'.
QUOTE(doomed_planet @ Sep 10 2005, 02:10 AM)
America may not be a third world country, as you say. It's also not a country
to live in and expect the government to take care of you. Those who succeed
in the U.S. are those who find a way to make it happen for themselves - PERIOD.
Complaining about the injustices and racial inequalities does not change anything.
You can point the finger at George Bush for not caring about blacks. But the
truth is, individuals of every color must be accountable for their successes as
well as failures. We haven't even touched on why so many blacks are poor
to begin with. Could it be because they aren't living up to their potential?
OR is it the government, and more specifically, white people in general, who
must be at fault?
to live in and expect the government to take care of you. Those who succeed
in the U.S. are those who find a way to make it happen for themselves - PERIOD.
Complaining about the injustices and racial inequalities does not change anything.
You can point the finger at George Bush for not caring about blacks. But the
truth is, individuals of every color must be accountable for their successes as
well as failures. We haven't even touched on why so many blacks are poor
to begin with. Could it be because they aren't living up to their potential?
OR is it the government, and more specifically, white people in general, who
must be at fault?
The only institution that can mobilize the financial, personnel and logistical forces that must be mobilize to evacuate an entire city is the federal government. There isn't a state in the entire United States that has the resources necessary to undertake such a task. The only individual that can marshall those forces is the President of the United States. That's "The President of the United States." Not "The President of White People of the United States."
So what if the primary victims of Katrina's wrath were poor blacks, Doomed Planet? Does that mean their poverty and/or their blackness made them less "productive members of society" than Bucket's brother whom your "heart goes on to?"
Because that is precisely the reason it appears why so many of them drowned like rats while White House officials sat on their collective thumbs dickering about whether they had the legal authority to declare martial law in Louisiana. They were poor, black and primarily Democrats so let them drown while we dot all the "i's" and cross all the "t's."
According to the New York Times, White House spinmeister supreme Karl Rove wasn't eager for the president to speak with the masses of displaced New Orleans residents. At least not the black ones.
One prominent African-American supporter of Mr. Bush who is close to Karl Rove, the White House political chief, said the president did not go into the heart of New Orleans and meet with black victims on his first trip there, last Friday, because he knew that White House officials were "scared to death" of the reaction.
"If I'm Karl, do I want the visual of black people hollering at the president as if we're living in Rwanda?" said the supporter, who spoke only anonymously because he did not want to antagonize Mr. Rove.
http://nytimes.com/2005/09/10/national/nat...artner=homepage
QUOTE
He is being penalized for being a productive member of society.
Meanwhile, thousands of people who were unemployed (and unemployable) will reap any available benefits. But because a large portion of the affected citizens are black we mustn't discuss it, lest we be termed racist.
Meanwhile, thousands of people who were unemployed (and unemployable) will reap any available benefits. But because a large portion of the affected citizens are black we mustn't discuss it, lest we be termed racist.
Yeah, well...kinda, sorta when you make a remark like that.
QUOTE
It seems to me that race is being made into an issue after the fact. Most of the people left behind appear to have chosen to stay behind... and although many are black, not all of them are... so how is it a racial issue?
It really seems to me that a lot of black people in the USA are making this into a racial question because they can score political points by doing so. That by sneering at the 'SUV drivers' who were able to flee the city in time (as I saw from Chris Rock) the weight of blame is being shifted away from the belligerence and stubborness that left so many people in the city, 'braving the storm' and away from the black mayor and his councillors who totally failed to evacuate the city (see carlitoswhey's sig for example) and who was very quick to point the finger at 'the feds'.
It really seems to me that a lot of black people in the USA are making this into a racial question because they can score political points by doing so. That by sneering at the 'SUV drivers' who were able to flee the city in time (as I saw from Chris Rock) the weight of blame is being shifted away from the belligerence and stubborness that left so many people in the city, 'braving the storm' and away from the black mayor and his councillors who totally failed to evacuate the city (see carlitoswhey's sig for example) and who was very quick to point the finger at 'the feds'.
Not to cast aspersions upon Carlitoswhey's signature, Moif, but allow me to differ here a bit.
No American city has been mass evacuated the way New Orleans was told to since General Sherman marched through and burnt Atlanta to the ground since the Civil War. You can sit over in Denmark and condemn those "belligerent and stubborn" New Orleans residents for not jumping into their cars and zooming off to parts unknown, but not everyone is blessed with either a vehicle and the funds to substain oneself when you have to flee to another city or state.
Monday, the Associated Press reported through analysis of U.S. Census data that people living in the path of Hurricane Katrina's worst destruction were twice as likely as most Americans to be poor and without a car.
"Let them know we're not bums. We have houses. Our houses were destroyed. We have jobs. It's not our fault that we didn't have cars to leave," said Shatonia Thomas.
"It's a different equation for poor people, explained Dan Carter, a University of South Carolina historian. "There's a certain ease of transportation and funds that the middle class in this country takes for granted."
The AP analysis found:
* Two in 10 households in the disaster area had no car compared with 1 in 10 nationwide.
* Nearly 25 percent of those living in the hardest-hit areas were below the poverty line, about double the national average. About 4.5 percent in the disaster area received public assistance; nationwide, the number was about 3.5 percent.
* About 60 percent of the 700,000 people in the three dozen neighborhoods were minority. Nationwide about 1 in 3 Americans is a racial minority.
NEWSWEEK reports in its September 12th issue during the "Hurricane Pam" planning exercise conducted by FEMA and sate and local officials, their scenarios predicted about 30 percent of the city's half-million people would stay behind.
Your assumption that people stayed behind because they wanted to is only half-right, Moif. What you totally fail to see is that many people could not leave and had no way or means to go. Moif says race is only a issue because black people are making it so and that with black officials like the chief of police and Mayor Ray Nagin in New Orleans how can race matter?
It matters because merely because you put a black face in what was previously an all-white place does not mean you have changed the status quo. You've only changed the administrator of the status quo. As Clarence Thomas proves daily by his presence on the U.S. Supreme Court, having a black man there means nothing if he thinks and acts only to protect the interests of non-black people.
This game of "blaming the victim" that you, Doomed Planet and others are playing only reinforces the racial animus and division that you decry. When Doomed Planet writes, ...the truth is, individuals of every color must be accountable for their successes as well as failures. We haven't even touched on why so many blacks are poor to begin with. Could it be because they aren't living up to their potential? the sneering disdain for people who suffered first from a natural disaster, then a bureaucratic and political one is almost palatable.
It all reinforces my belief that there are and will always be those who can say somehow the predominantly poor and black victims (and "victims" is the correct word here) somehow "deserved" their sorry fates just for being so poor and black.
Apparently if you're not wealthy enough, pretty enough or white enough in some parts of the world you don't matter for much. Perhaps if the thousands of smelly, unwashed masses that fled the brackish sewer that is now New Orleans and the Gulf Coast had all looked like Natalee Holloway they would merit more sympathy.
It would seem that we've reached yet another low point in race relations when black people are once again only three-fifths of a human being.
While it is pretty undenyable that Bush Jr displayed a staggering level of incompetence with regards to the Katerina disaster, I for one am a bit leary of putting motives to the incompetence.
Massive floods are nothing new. In 2002 Central Europe was under 4 meters of water, damage more widespread and spectacular than katerina, over 1/3 of the entire Czech Republic was flooded. Yet because of extensive preparations and instant response, the death toll was not huge. Other examples are abundant.
OK, so we can state pretty clearly that there was a complete failure of the government to act as necessary, federal government surely, but state and municipal as well.
Here is the problem, what evidence does anyone have that this was racism? Is there ANY? It could just as easily be based on the fact that the region was Democratic, or because the region was poor.
Or, which I personally find FAR more likely, there was no sinister motive at all, and it was just Bush Jr's recognised inability to make decisions unless pronpted by his handlers. Incompetence does not always need a sinister motive behind it, sometimes it is just plain old fashioned incompetence.
Anyone suggesting a sinister motive such as racism needs to provide some evidence. So far I have seen none whatsoever.
Massive floods are nothing new. In 2002 Central Europe was under 4 meters of water, damage more widespread and spectacular than katerina, over 1/3 of the entire Czech Republic was flooded. Yet because of extensive preparations and instant response, the death toll was not huge. Other examples are abundant.
OK, so we can state pretty clearly that there was a complete failure of the government to act as necessary, federal government surely, but state and municipal as well.
Here is the problem, what evidence does anyone have that this was racism? Is there ANY? It could just as easily be based on the fact that the region was Democratic, or because the region was poor.
Or, which I personally find FAR more likely, there was no sinister motive at all, and it was just Bush Jr's recognised inability to make decisions unless pronpted by his handlers. Incompetence does not always need a sinister motive behind it, sometimes it is just plain old fashioned incompetence.
Anyone suggesting a sinister motive such as racism needs to provide some evidence. So far I have seen none whatsoever.
QUOTE
nighttimer,Sep 10 2005, 11:18 AM
The only institution that can mobilize the financial, personnel and logistical
forces that must be mobilize to evacuate an entire city is the federal government.
The only institution that can mobilize the financial, personnel and logistical
forces that must be mobilize to evacuate an entire city is the federal government.
The mayor could have done a lot more than he did. He didn't need the federal
government to utilize whatever available resources to move people out.
Was the mayor not aware of the demographics of his own city? Was he that
out-of-touch that he had no idea that thousands of people would be stranded?
Or maybe, like George Bush, he didn't have the ability to think outside the
box during a time of disaster. The numerous warnings, given days in advance,
weren't taken seriously enough by the local government (as well as residents).
That is a huge factor in why the disaster was so disastrous to begin with.
QUOTE
So what if the primary victims of Katrina's wrath were poor blacks,
Doomed Planet? Does that mean their poverty and/or their blackness
made them less "productive members of society" than Bucket's brother
whom your "heart goes on to?"
Doomed Planet? Does that mean their poverty and/or their blackness
made them less "productive members of society" than Bucket's brother
whom your "heart goes on to?"
Yes, it does make them less productive members. To be a productive member of
society you have to contribute and have the means to be self-sufficient.
There was a large percentage of those victims who don't fit that criteria, and many
in that large percentage were black. Do you think that because they are black
they are somehow exempt from personal accountability? When I say
personal accountability I mean taking personal responsibility for the life decisions
that got them into the position where they had no car, or they had no money.
We are all responsible, ultimately, when it comes down to it, and this disaster
proves that you cannot count on anyone to save you when push comes to shove.
It's not that George Bush is a racist, it's that he, along with state government,
wasn't up to such a great task.
The prevalent racial divide is exacerbated moreso by blacks who insist on holding
onto racial animosity. And we whites must accept that and feel sorry, and keep
our mouths shut, and watch what we say, and so on and so forth....and what is the
end result? Unexpressed animosity on behalf of whites, and overexpressed animosity on behalf of blacks.
QUOTE
They were poor, black and primarily Democrats so let them drown while
we dot all the "i's" and cross all the "t's."
we dot all the "i's" and cross all the "t's."
That's a real stretch. How many of those victims voted in the last election?
How many of them have ever voted in their lives? They want to benefit
from the government, but are they willing to do their parts as citizens to effect
a change in government, or are they like most of us Americans, uninvolved
and apathetic, until they need help.
Nighttimer.
I know a lot of people had no car, but so what? when they choose to remain, then its on their own heads.
I also know that a lot of people had no transport and wanted to leave. In such a situation it is up to the city's local administration, from the elected Mayor downwards, to ensure the evacuation of the citizens.
I don't care what colour skin the Mayor has, thats his responsibility under such conditions. The fact is however, he is a black man, and so are the majority of the city council, or so I am led to believe, and I don't care whether or not Clarence Thomas is just a sock puppet on the supreme court, the bottom line is, Mayor Nagin failed just as utterly as you say GW Bush did.
Where is the 'sneering disdain'? I'm not 'blaming the victims'. What does that mean? Its no longer acceptable to point out that people can actually share in the blame for their own misfortunes?
Let me tell you now, that I own no car and never have. I can't afford one. If Århus was in danger however, and my Mayor told us to evacuate the city, I'd pick up my daughter and regardless of my poor health, I'd walk out if there was no other way!
By the standards of the people of New Orleans I may not be as poor as they are, but by the standards of Sri Lanka, the people of N.O. are swimming in wealth and opportunity.
There is no excuse for not acting in your own best interest and although its possible to not recognise a threat when it presents itself, that doesn't give any one the right to push the blame onto other people without taking some responsibility for their own actions.
And by the way, most of the people I've seen interviewed from New Orleans, most of whom were black, expressed themselves in pretty much the same fashion and I have no problem with their gripes regarding the governments lack of response to their predicament. I agree with them.
Its the media figures, and politicians, people like Ray Nagin, Jesse Jackson and Chris Rock I'm thinking of. People, who are all black, trying to capitalize on what has happened to further a clearly racial agenda.
Do they deserve to be ignored in your generalisation because their skin just isn't dark enough to be included in your indignation?
Your post reinforces my belief that there are those who say the predominantly poor victims are only victims because they are black.
Perhaps, just perhaps, the people of New Orleans are actually being treated just the same way as any one else but because their black, then it must be racism thats at the bottom of their problems.. right?
I think not. An example of what I mean took place here in Denmark. Last year a fireworks factory exploded and destroyed an en entire suburb. Every one swung into action and the emergency services were on the spot immedietely. The politicians made all the right noises and the media had a field day.
Now, one year on, the psychologists and pyschiatrists have released their findings, and guess what? It turns out that the people were let down. The insurance companies screwed most of them, the charities quickly moved on to the next problem, the politicians ignored them once the camera's were gone and the media wasn't interested once the story grew stale.
These people were all Danes, all 'white', all midddle class, all employed, tax paying citizens in one of the richest nations on Earth ...and they were left to rot.
Being poor and black or rich and white, it makes no difference. You still get screwed when your down and out.
QUOTE
No American city has been mass evacuated the way New Orleans was told to since General Sherman marched through and burnt Atlanta to the ground since the Civil War. You can sit over in Denmark and condemn those "belligerent and stubborn" New Orleans residents for not jumping into their cars and zooming off to parts unknown, but not everyone is blessed with either a vehicle and the funds to substain oneself when you have to flee to another city or state.
I'm not condemning any one, I'm merely relating what I've seen and heard people say in many interviews over the course of the last ten days. That the majority chose to stay, because they thought they could ride out the storm. I know a lot of people had no car, but so what? when they choose to remain, then its on their own heads.
I also know that a lot of people had no transport and wanted to leave. In such a situation it is up to the city's local administration, from the elected Mayor downwards, to ensure the evacuation of the citizens.
I don't care what colour skin the Mayor has, thats his responsibility under such conditions. The fact is however, he is a black man, and so are the majority of the city council, or so I am led to believe, and I don't care whether or not Clarence Thomas is just a sock puppet on the supreme court, the bottom line is, Mayor Nagin failed just as utterly as you say GW Bush did.
QUOTE
Monday, the Associated Press reported through analysis of U.S. Census data that people living in the path of Hurricane Katrina's worst destruction were twice as likely as most Americans to be poor and without a car.
QUOTE
"It's a different equation for poor people, explained Dan Carter, a University of South Carolina historian. "There's a certain ease of transportation and funds that the middle class in this country takes for granted."
QUOTE
The AP analysis found:
* Two in 10 households in the disaster area had no car compared with 1 in 10 nationwide.
* Nearly 25 percent of those living in the hardest-hit areas were below the poverty line, about double the national average. About 4.5 percent in the disaster area received public assistance; nationwide, the number was about 3.5 percent.
* About 60 percent of the 700,000 people in the three dozen neighborhoods were minority. Nationwide about 1 in 3 Americans is a racial minority.
There seems to be this greasy pole in debates such as these where we quickly slip from the word 'poor', to the word 'black'. Its almost as if you believe the only poor people who matter are the black one's. Why? * Two in 10 households in the disaster area had no car compared with 1 in 10 nationwide.
* Nearly 25 percent of those living in the hardest-hit areas were below the poverty line, about double the national average. About 4.5 percent in the disaster area received public assistance; nationwide, the number was about 3.5 percent.
* About 60 percent of the 700,000 people in the three dozen neighborhoods were minority. Nationwide about 1 in 3 Americans is a racial minority.
QUOTE
This game of "blaming the victim" that you, Doomed Planet and others are playing only reinforces the racial animus and division that you decry. When Doomed Planet writes, ...the truth is, individuals of every color must be accountable for their successes as well as failures. We haven't even touched on why so many blacks are poor to begin with. Could it be because they aren't living up to their potential? the sneering disdain for people who suffered first from a natural disaster, then a bureaucratic and political one is almost palatable.
What? Where is the 'sneering disdain'? I'm not 'blaming the victims'. What does that mean? Its no longer acceptable to point out that people can actually share in the blame for their own misfortunes?
Let me tell you now, that I own no car and never have. I can't afford one. If Århus was in danger however, and my Mayor told us to evacuate the city, I'd pick up my daughter and regardless of my poor health, I'd walk out if there was no other way!
By the standards of the people of New Orleans I may not be as poor as they are, but by the standards of Sri Lanka, the people of N.O. are swimming in wealth and opportunity.
There is no excuse for not acting in your own best interest and although its possible to not recognise a threat when it presents itself, that doesn't give any one the right to push the blame onto other people without taking some responsibility for their own actions.
And by the way, most of the people I've seen interviewed from New Orleans, most of whom were black, expressed themselves in pretty much the same fashion and I have no problem with their gripes regarding the governments lack of response to their predicament. I agree with them.
Its the media figures, and politicians, people like Ray Nagin, Jesse Jackson and Chris Rock I'm thinking of. People, who are all black, trying to capitalize on what has happened to further a clearly racial agenda.
QUOTE
It all reinforces my belief that there are and will always be those who can say somehow the predominantly poor and black victims (and "victims" is the correct word here) somehow "deserved" their sorry fates just for being so poor and black.
Yeah? so how do you account for the poor Hispanics and whites? Do they deserve to be ignored in your generalisation because their skin just isn't dark enough to be included in your indignation?
Your post reinforces my belief that there are those who say the predominantly poor victims are only victims because they are black.
QUOTE
Apparently if you're not wealthy enough, pretty enough or white enough in some parts of the world you don't matter for much. Perhaps if the thousands of smelly, unwashed masses that fled the brackish sewer that is now New Orleans and the Gulf Coast had all looked like Natalee Holloway they would merit more sympathy.
And apparently, judging by your post, if your not black enough, you just don't count as a poor person. Perhaps, just perhaps, the people of New Orleans are actually being treated just the same way as any one else but because their black, then it must be racism thats at the bottom of their problems.. right?
I think not. An example of what I mean took place here in Denmark. Last year a fireworks factory exploded and destroyed an en entire suburb. Every one swung into action and the emergency services were on the spot immedietely. The politicians made all the right noises and the media had a field day.
Now, one year on, the psychologists and pyschiatrists have released their findings, and guess what? It turns out that the people were let down. The insurance companies screwed most of them, the charities quickly moved on to the next problem, the politicians ignored them once the camera's were gone and the media wasn't interested once the story grew stale.
These people were all Danes, all 'white', all midddle class, all employed, tax paying citizens in one of the richest nations on Earth ...and they were left to rot.
Being poor and black or rich and white, it makes no difference. You still get screwed when your down and out.
QUOTE(nighttimer Today @ 01:18 PM)
It all reinforces my belief that there are and will always be those who can say somehow the predominantly poor and black victims (and "victims" is the correct word here) somehow "deserved" their sorry fates just for being so poor and black.
After the screeds of the last week, my belief is now reinforced that there will always be those that use charges of racism as political capital, making them just as detestable and pathetic as those who commit acts of racism themselves.
To use this tragedy, to pimp the victims when some bodies aren't yet cold, as a means to further a political agenda, is disgusting. And make no mistake, that is what they are doing as evidenced by selective blaming. To claim analogies to slave ships and concentration camps is bad enough, but to then to put a white face on an imagined puppet master of suffering and despair; to blame everyone BUT the black faces and democrats at local levels, who are by their own charters the first responders and first line of defense when tragedy occurs, is inconceivable to any citizen of intellect.
When the charge's of racism in the aftermath of Katrina wouldn't pass muster in a court of law, and obviously don't pass muster in the court of public opinion and reasoned thought, the charges are exposed to the light as the fraud that they are. The ONLY (and I use this term loosely) evidence that has been presented is examples of hypotheticals. But if taken seriously by enough, thanks to media sensationalism, I hope those that are carrying this banner can sleep well knowing that they have done more to damage race relations in my adult life than any malcontent skinhead or circle of buffoons in bedsheets.
Acts of racism surely do occur to this day, but thanks to some who make their living mugging for cameras and microphones, the cries of real victims will be drown out by false cries of wolf.
QUOTE(bucket @ Sep 9 2005, 10:09 PM)
Wertz as a Florida resident I would have thought your demographic grasp of that state would have been a little bit better. Having lived in Florida myself for nearly 10 yrs I can say there are a whole lotta really poor people there..black and white.
So? Take a look at the stats that DTOM and I both posted. There is a difference - and a fairly significant one.
QUOTE(bucket @ Sep 9 2005, 10:09 PM)
Also being a resident of Florida I would have thought you were aware of the problems and operational failures that occurred with FEMA and hurricane Frances.
I am literally speechless. To compare a few problems regarding overpayment for damages to government inaction and bungling that has cost hundreds, perhaps thousands, of lives is... well, one of the most callous things I've come across here in a very long time. I hope everyone following this thread reads that link to see what it is to which you are comparing the tragedy of New Orleans: the waste of a few dollars vs. the waste of human lives and the destruction of an American city.
You needn't worry, bucket. Unlike the residents of Miami-Dade, I'm sure FEMA won't be paying anyone in New Orleans a penny more than they desperately need. After all, the Bush adminsitration doesn't have to buy any votes this year.
Did race matter in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina?
I voted for other but I'm not sure it registered. In any case, I think class mattered more than race but since lower economic class is heavily influenced by race, race mattered too! Also, I don't think that economic class mattered so much after Katrina as in creating the circumstances that contributed to the situation poor people (and others) faced after the levees failed. One of the characteristics of poverty in modern America is a lack of power. This is one reason why the needs of the poor are largely ignored. I think it is self evident that, if the poor areas of New Orleans had been occupied by politically active middle class or rich people, the levees would have been maintained and strengthened or, at least, a more thorough evacuation would have been assured.
I do believe we have made substantial progress on racism in this country but then we started with a long way to go. In 1918 in Valsosta, GA an innocent black man was killed by a mob of whites who then preceded to lynch his pregnant wife for threatening revenge, cutting open her belly and crushing her unborn child. Some of the 5,000 plus lynchings were carried out as late as the 1950's. The legacy of the middle passage, slavery, Jim Crow (enforced with this kind of terrorist violence), and more recent isolation in urban core cities with terrible schools, drugs and other social pathologies have had a lasting impact on the economic position of many blacks. Other minorities, except for Indians, may not have suffered the same degree of overt oppression but they have also been disadvantaged as a group by their history. Just because a few blacks are appointed to high office and 10s of others make millions of dollars as entertainers or sports stars doesn't remove the legacy of racism or its consequences such as the failure to pay real attention to the safety of the poor of New Orleans.
I voted for other but I'm not sure it registered. In any case, I think class mattered more than race but since lower economic class is heavily influenced by race, race mattered too! Also, I don't think that economic class mattered so much after Katrina as in creating the circumstances that contributed to the situation poor people (and others) faced after the levees failed. One of the characteristics of poverty in modern America is a lack of power. This is one reason why the needs of the poor are largely ignored. I think it is self evident that, if the poor areas of New Orleans had been occupied by politically active middle class or rich people, the levees would have been maintained and strengthened or, at least, a more thorough evacuation would have been assured.
I do believe we have made substantial progress on racism in this country but then we started with a long way to go. In 1918 in Valsosta, GA an innocent black man was killed by a mob of whites who then preceded to lynch his pregnant wife for threatening revenge, cutting open her belly and crushing her unborn child. Some of the 5,000 plus lynchings were carried out as late as the 1950's. The legacy of the middle passage, slavery, Jim Crow (enforced with this kind of terrorist violence), and more recent isolation in urban core cities with terrible schools, drugs and other social pathologies have had a lasting impact on the economic position of many blacks. Other minorities, except for Indians, may not have suffered the same degree of overt oppression but they have also been disadvantaged as a group by their history. Just because a few blacks are appointed to high office and 10s of others make millions of dollars as entertainers or sports stars doesn't remove the legacy of racism or its consequences such as the failure to pay real attention to the safety of the poor of New Orleans.
I have been follwoing this thread for days now- and no set of subjects in AD get closed more than race debates- because, IMHO, they are the most entrenched positions we have in our mind, perhaps even more entrenched than religion. I am a white male, and have never dealt with any racism to speak of, other than some racial epitaths during various fist fights in my life LOL 
-
So, in this case, I conducted an interesting, unscientific poll. I asked 20 of my black friends if they believe race is a factor, and 20 of my white friends the same- interesting enough- and remember, this is alaska, and every black friend and white friend, I prefaced the question with "have you ever felt as though you have been a victim of racism"- well, guess what? both groups said they hadn't dealt with overt racism- however, the blacks believe racism is part of the lack of response in NO, and the whites do not.
Why is that? I am always confused with this issue- and profess no understanding in this issue.
I have family in Thibodeaux LA- I used to stay there in Summer, and my aunt was disowned for a bit by the family for marrying a "colored" man- though I guess he is not technically black (he has passed on years ago, a very good man BTW) though he was too dark for portions of my family.
So I asked that arm of non-white cousins how they felt about this topic.
to a person they thought that GW simply doesn't care about any black poeple, especially poor black poeple- and one described it as 'racism by neglect, rather than KKK racism"- a type of "darwinsim they like"
so, I guess, in the end, if you feel it is racism, it is all about perception, while if you don't it is also about perception.
It is interesting how vociferous the white folks on this board of edumacated folk are when it comes to castigating those that didn't leave that area, that are poor because "they didnt' do anything about it" etc- which, to black folks I have talked to- is a form of racism, which, to the white folks I talk to, just torques them off even more- because these poeple didn't jump in thier lincoln and go to their families in other states, or just run up thier credit cards or whatever those who left did?
My personal feeling is that the lack of response is a LEGACY of a type of racism, rather than the overt racism that some poeple feel we are talking about I suppose- why bother to help them? They stayed there, they CHOSE to be poor, it is all thier fault, not the goverments, after all, the goverment is not in charge of thier lives etc.
I know that the reality is quite different- once down, it is very hard to get up- and blaming the victim is quite easy- because they don't fight back well, and thier "leaders" are very flawed poeple as well. They are easy targets, no doubt- and I firmly believe, that if this were a city of middle class white poeple, they would have had troops in mass numbers on the street BEFORE the hurricane hit.
- So, in this case, I conducted an interesting, unscientific poll. I asked 20 of my black friends if they believe race is a factor, and 20 of my white friends the same- interesting enough- and remember, this is alaska, and every black friend and white friend, I prefaced the question with "have you ever felt as though you have been a victim of racism"- well, guess what? both groups said they hadn't dealt with overt racism- however, the blacks believe racism is part of the lack of response in NO, and the whites do not.
Why is that? I am always confused with this issue- and profess no understanding in this issue.
I have family in Thibodeaux LA- I used to stay there in Summer, and my aunt was disowned for a bit by the family for marrying a "colored" man- though I guess he is not technically black (he has passed on years ago, a very good man BTW) though he was too dark for portions of my family.
So I asked that arm of non-white cousins how they felt about this topic.
to a person they thought that GW simply doesn't care about any black poeple, especially poor black poeple- and one described it as 'racism by neglect, rather than KKK racism"- a type of "darwinsim they like"
so, I guess, in the end, if you feel it is racism, it is all about perception, while if you don't it is also about perception.
It is interesting how vociferous the white folks on this board of edumacated folk
are when it comes to castigating those that didn't leave that area, that are poor because "they didnt' do anything about it" etc- which, to black folks I have talked to- is a form of racism, which, to the white folks I talk to, just torques them off even more- because these poeple didn't jump in thier lincoln and go to their families in other states, or just run up thier credit cards or whatever those who left did? My personal feeling is that the lack of response is a LEGACY of a type of racism, rather than the overt racism that some poeple feel we are talking about I suppose- why bother to help them? They stayed there, they CHOSE to be poor, it is all thier fault, not the goverments, after all, the goverment is not in charge of thier lives etc.
I know that the reality is quite different- once down, it is very hard to get up- and blaming the victim is quite easy- because they don't fight back well, and thier "leaders" are very flawed poeple as well. They are easy targets, no doubt- and I firmly believe, that if this were a city of middle class white poeple, they would have had troops in mass numbers on the street BEFORE the hurricane hit.
Did Race Matter In The Aftermath Of Katrina?
Yes. Race is an issue to some degree as is social class.
It has been well pointed out the differences most belive would be evident if Katrina's path had led thru an affluent neighborhood rather than New Orleans.
I also agree that Mayor Nagin shares in the culpability of the outcome. In fact the only one i haven't found a great deal of problem with is the Governor. She contacted President Bush 2 days prior to Katrina making landfall and declared a state of emergency and requested disaster status along with federal help. The only problem was Bush wanted total control of everything and LA Governor was afraid this would be the same as martial law.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...5090301680.html
The talked thru the night and never did agree on complete federal control. all this time Bush apparently withheld the aid in an attempt to force the Governor's hand.
If this is true it speaks volumes for the strong arm tactics Bush is famous for when dealing with those who disagree with him.
In light of this I still think race and class were factors but stubbornness was also there. the do it my way or else mentality of a schoolyard bully. This has no place when lives are hanging in the balance.
I don't believe for one minute we would see this type of behavior were the hurricane to have hit either Florida or most certainly not Texas.
Yes. Race is an issue to some degree as is social class.
It has been well pointed out the differences most belive would be evident if Katrina's path had led thru an affluent neighborhood rather than New Orleans.
I also agree that Mayor Nagin shares in the culpability of the outcome. In fact the only one i haven't found a great deal of problem with is the Governor. She contacted President Bush 2 days prior to Katrina making landfall and declared a state of emergency and requested disaster status along with federal help. The only problem was Bush wanted total control of everything and LA Governor was afraid this would be the same as martial law.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...5090301680.html
The talked thru the night and never did agree on complete federal control. all this time Bush apparently withheld the aid in an attempt to force the Governor's hand.
If this is true it speaks volumes for the strong arm tactics Bush is famous for when dealing with those who disagree with him.
In light of this I still think race and class were factors but stubbornness was also there. the do it my way or else mentality of a schoolyard bully. This has no place when lives are hanging in the balance.
I don't believe for one minute we would see this type of behavior were the hurricane to have hit either Florida or most certainly not Texas.
Did race matter in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina?
There's no way that we can know if racism had anything to do with the Government incompetence in handling the Katrina aftermath. There are several facts though that contributed.
1.) The National Guard was tied up fighting an overseas war.
2.) The Federal Government in general has a history of waste and inefficiency.
This is the same government that was slow to give all our soldiers adequate
armor in Iraq.
While the Mayor of New Orleans couldn't have prevented the flood or done near as much as the Federal Government could have done, he and his commissioners could have gotten bus tickets for those too poor to have cars.
There's no way that we can know if racism had anything to do with the Government incompetence in handling the Katrina aftermath. There are several facts though that contributed.
1.) The National Guard was tied up fighting an overseas war.
2.) The Federal Government in general has a history of waste and inefficiency.
This is the same government that was slow to give all our soldiers adequate
armor in Iraq.
While the Mayor of New Orleans couldn't have prevented the flood or done near as much as the Federal Government could have done, he and his commissioners could have gotten bus tickets for those too poor to have cars.
I’m still looking for some real evidence — something more than coincidental or even anecdotal — that the rescue efforts were affected by race, and it’s just not there.
I think it is self evident that, if the poor areas of New Orleans had been occupied by politically active middle class or rich people, the levees would have been maintained and strengthened or, at least, a more thorough evacuation would have been assured.
Valid point, but it refers to measures we could have taken before, not after.
Personally, my sentiments are that if New Orleans had been 67 percent white and wealthy and Republican instead on 67 percent black, poor and Democrat, the Bush Administration would have pulled out all the stops in responding to the disaster down South.
I firmly believe, that if this were a city of middle class white poeple, they would have had troops in mass numbers on the street BEFORE the hurricane hit.
Here are my questions:
I’m afraid the only evidence is that many people choose to see racism where it just doesn’t exist.
The “real” lesson is that in the wake of a Category 4 1/2 hurricane preparation is at least as important as response.
I also have to agree with carlitoswhey that nighttimer did a brilliant job of framing the question.
QUOTE(TedN5 @ Sep 11 2005, 12:41 AM)
I think it is self evident that, if the poor areas of New Orleans had been occupied by politically active middle class or rich people, the levees would have been maintained and strengthened or, at least, a more thorough evacuation would have been assured.
Valid point, but it refers to measures we could have taken before, not after.
QUOTE(nighttimer)
Personally, my sentiments are that if New Orleans had been 67 percent white and wealthy and Republican instead on 67 percent black, poor and Democrat, the Bush Administration would have pulled out all the stops in responding to the disaster down South.
QUOTE(CruisingRam @ Sep 11 2005, 01:04 AM)
I firmly believe, that if this were a city of middle class white poeple, they would have had troops in mass numbers on the street BEFORE the hurricane hit.
Here are my questions:
- Hurricane country is the one type I’ve never lived in but, from years of watching TV, when have we ever done more for an area this size? (remember, Katrina’s cloud covered the entire Gulf Coast).
- When more-white populated cities of a half million were threatened by a Category 5 in the past, did we have troops "in mass numbers on the street" beforehand?
- How quickly have the feds EVER overridden local and state control?
- How fast do we really expect a full-scale response to rescue 150,000 people (my estimate) who stayed behind, while a hurricane still is active in the region and we're only now starting to discover how badly the infrastructure was destroyed?
- How accustomed have we become to people “riding out” hurricanes and never needing help?
- How many people thought after work Monday that NO had dodged the bullet?
I’m afraid the only evidence is that many people choose to see racism where it just doesn’t exist.
The “real” lesson is that in the wake of a Category 4 1/2 hurricane preparation is at least as important as response.
I also have to agree with carlitoswhey that nighttimer did a brilliant job of framing the question.
You know- part of my point is- racism is partly perceptions- if you live in a lilly white nieghborhood that were no one drops racial epitaths- would you know it if you saw it? so you won't have evidence of racism short of a lynching- that is why institutinal and non-overt racism is so insidious- because it is so easy to deny-
what kind of evidence are you looking for here? GW dropping racial epitaths?
Really, asking for some kind of concrete evidence of racism is more than a tad deceptive form of denial- because, short of a trial for lynching- there won't be set of concrete evidence you can ever pull from to satisfy those that deny racism exists.
what kind of evidence are you looking for here? GW dropping racial epitaths?
Really, asking for some kind of concrete evidence of racism is more than a tad deceptive form of denial- because, short of a trial for lynching- there won't be set of concrete evidence you can ever pull from to satisfy those that deny racism exists.
QUOTE(CruisingRam @ Sep 10 2005, 11:33 PM)