Let me start by saying that 1) I am Jewish by blood 2) I like Israel and I have many friends and former classmates living there; I may not agree with some policies of Israeli governments, past and present, but it doesn't change the fact that I am sympathetic to Israeli cause. 3) I am not an anti-semite (an obvious conclusion based on statements 1 and 2, but nonetheless...)

I typed the statements above because it is often happens that when people criticize anything Jewish or Israeli they are being accused in antisemitism. Just on this very board, a well-respected contributor lambasted an entire anti-war movement for "anti-american and anti-semitic agenda". However, I am not going to attempt to cover topic as vast and controversial as antisemitism. Let's start with Anti-Defamation League.

This organization has an annual budget of over 40 million. It has 29 offices in United States and 3 offices abroad. It's goal, according to their website is "to stop, by appeals to reason and conscience and, if necessary, by appeals to law, the defamation of the Jewish people. Its ultimate purpose is to secure justice and fair treatment to all citizens alike and to put an end forever to unjust and unfair discrimination against and ridicule of any sect or body of citizens."

I have a friend who recently graduated from a rabbinical school in Cincinnati. His (quite unorthodox) view is that ADL does more harm to Jewish people than it does good - just by its existence. He compared it to Affirmative Action - saying that the best thing any minority group can do for itself is to throw away all the crutches.

Questions for debate:

How would you characterize the level of anti-semitism in United States? Non-existent, low, moderate, or high?

Unlike other civil rights organizations and despite its own motto which calls for "justice and fair treatment for all citizens", ADL concentrates exclusively on anti-semitism. Do you think that there's a need for powerful, well-funded organization such as ADL to defend Jewish people in United States and abroad?

It would be foolish to claim that there is no anti-semitism in the United States. It exists in a wide variety of forms, from the insane ravings of the American Nazi Party, to casual remarks about "typical Jews" which I have heard, to my shame, from members of my own family.

It's difficult to say whether the level of anti-semitism is "low" or "high" in the USA, since any amount of it is far too high. In comparison with some other nations of the world, I would have to rate it as "low." It's no secret that there is a great problem with anti-semitism in nations with an officially Muslim government. One reason for the relatively "low" level of anti-semitism in the USA is simple; the population of Jews in the United States is rather small.

List of Nations in Order of Percentage of Jewish Population (from the Jewish Encyclopedia)



In the United States, prejudice is more likely on the basis of race rather than religion and/or ethnicity.

I certainly think that there is a need for organizations like the Anti-Defamation League, as long as anti-semitism exists. There is some evidence that the problem is actually getting worse:

CBC interview with Irving Abella, expert in anti-semitism

First of all, your numbers appear to be outdated. Russia has not been called "Russian Empire" since the Revolution of 1917, and Poland had its Jewish population decimated to low single digits during the Holocaust. So it appears that the Jewish demographics you are using is about 100 years old. The contemporary demographics can be found here: according to the data, North America is home to almost half of world's Jews. According to this site, United States is home to 6.5 million Jews, which also constitutes largest percentage of Jews per 1000 people outside of Israel (20.1 in United States; 11.8 in Canada).

Every nation has its own traits; on of the traits of Jewish people is to look for anti-semitism everywhere. This trait has been lampooned in literature and TV from time to time ("Seinfeld" is a good example: anybody remembers Uncle Leo?) I saw this trait firsthand in my own family when my grandmother suggested that my chemistry teacher was an anti-semite when she was giving me consistent "D"s in her class (a thought that her grandson can't stand chemistry and consistently fails the class didn't occur to her).
In a study you mention, "an expert in anti-semitism" says that according to his study, the "hardcore antisemitism" is between 8 and 9 percent in United States. So, 8 percent of Americans doesn't like Jews. Anybody ever measured what percent of Americans doesn't like Chinese or Mexicans? What about Indians? I wouldn't be surprised to find that a significant portion of American population dislikes people from India and everything about them. But there's no organization which would conduct such a study. Is there an organization in the world which measures the general attitude of Europeans towards Gypsies, people who had a mini-Holocaust of their own during WWII? I don't think so.

How would you characterize the level of anti-semitism in United States? Non-existent, low, moderate, or high?

I am against all hate-crime legislation, as I believe it criminalizes thought. However, since it is germane to this debate - From the FBI 2004 Crime in the United States. Note - this is a big huge pdf link. From page 58:

Anti-Jewish hate crimes: 954 incidents; 1,003 offenses; 1,076 victims; 330 known offenders.

Anti-Muslim hate crimes: 156 incidents; 193 offenses; 201 victims; 124 known offenders

Anti-Homosexual hate crimes: 1164 incidents; 1371 offenses; 1446 victims; 1236 known offenders

Based on the above, should CAIR and other Muslim organizations be disbanded? Should gay advocates like GLAAD be disbanded? Why is it that the "well funded" and "powerful" Jewish group is more of a problem than it's worth?

They always seem to be establishing the case for israel. 1.) bring up the holocaust and how the jews were persecuted/murdered. 2.) state that the jews are a dying race and need a state of its own. 3.) Keeping bringing up the holocaust so people will forget that israel just kicked out and put the palestinians in camps 4.)call everyone who disagrees with you and zionism, the number of jewish dead(2.5 to 6 million) and anyone you don't like a nazi and keep bringing up the holocaust because it's a sad event. Hopefully, people will forget that the whole base for zion is lies and just sit quietly because they don't want to be called nazis or anti-semitic.


Unlike other civil rights organizations and despite its own motto which calls for "justice and fair treatment for all citizens", ADL concentrates exclusively on anti-semitism. Do you think that there's a need for powerful, well-funded organization such as ADL to defend Jewish people in United States and abroad?

No i don't think you should, what makes you so special and more persecuted then the rest of us? Just because you went through a genocide? It's not like your the only one, people in Zimbabwe, South Africa are experiencing it now.

In the United States i found this out

"Between 2001 and 2003, blacks committed, on average, 15,400 black-on-white rapes per year, while whites averaged only 900 white-on-black rapes per year."

"Of the nearly 770,000 violent interracial crimes committed every year involving blacks and whites, blacks commit 85 percent and whites commit 15 percent."

Source:http://amren.com/store/colorcrime.htm

Where is the WADL?

You have MOSSAD i am sure that doesn't mind taking out the odd anti semite

Your statements speak of a vast array of ignorance.

First off Israel did not kick anyone out period. It did not happen and there is as much proof of this fact as that Washington crossed the Delaware.

Second the Arabs and the UN put the 'Palestinians' in camps. Israel never put a single person in any camps. Again that is a fact.

You don't like us, so what. I do not call anybody a Nazi, nor does Israel ever refer to anybody besides Nazis as such. Your claim is pure fantasy. As for if you are an anti-semite I think your words speak volumes without any comment on my part.

As for genocide, I suggest that you might want to check with the UN on a definition of the term. What is going on right now is genocide. When a person is attacked for belonging to a religion, or ethnic group that is genocide pure and simple.

"You have MOSSAD i am sure that doesn't mind taking out the odd anti semite" Again it speaks volumes. Mossad has not and will not 'take out the odd anti-semite'.

Now to answer the questions asked:
How would you characterize the level of anti-semitism in United States? Non-existent, low, moderate, or high? I have experienced enough anti-semitism to state that it is moderate. There are so many people that have pre-judged us and declare the 'Jews' this and the 'Jews' that. I wish we had that kind of power. Also if we are suppose to be so wealthy I want to know where the heck is my share!

Unlike other civil rights organizations and despite its own motto which calls for "justice and fair treatment for all citizens", ADL concentrates exclusively on anti-semitism. Do you think that there's a need for powerful, well-funded organization such as ADL to defend Jewish people in United States and abroad?I think that no other group has been singled out for special racism by so many different groups in the history of the world. It is a unique attribute and after 1945 it has proven to be needed now more than ever.

I think its all in perceptual context. Like if I said the Christian right has designs on the white house, it dose not come racist to such an extent, but if I said that the Jewish faith has designs on the white house, then it does become far more racist to many. Speaking of which, my wife did not even know what kosher meant when she bought kosher salt last night, I thought it was funny.

Back to my point. Some issues have far more a sensitive posture in relation to race then others do. Its common to see an African American come in traditional dress of African culture to a work place as an example, but if I was to show up for work in a suit of armor or Scottish dress, it might come off as racially insensitive. My point is not to be negative, but more or less its not easy to see where society in America stands on race issues besides that statistic of race related crimes reported. I think this then feeds into watchdog groups that feel compelled to act in some fashion to lessen such overall.

How would you characterize the level of anti-semitism in United States? Non-existent, low, moderate, or high?

I think that hard-core anti-semitism is pretty limited. I frequently see it manifested in two groups:
1) The Black Power crowd (Louis F. et al), and
2) The Leftists (Cindy Sheehan and her ilk)
Unfortunately, both groups are loud and get lots of press coverage. (Except the mainstream press usually redacts the anti-semitic stuff so we don't get the wrong impression about these "caring" groups").

I think the vast majority of folks here really are not hateful. Although I hear "subtile negatives" ("Jewish Lightning"), etc., they are really not intended to be hurtful. I do understand though that, given the past, they would not be received with the same light-heartedness with which they are meant...


Unlike other civil rights organizations and despite its own motto which calls for "justice and fair treatment for all citizens", ADL concentrates exclusively on anti-semitism. Do you think that there's a need for powerful, well-funded organization such as ADL to defend Jewish people in United States and abroad?

I really can not think of another civil rights group that does not cater to a specific race, religion, or the like. Although most may say "justice for all" it's usually "line my pockets so I don't call for a boycott". Every organization that I can think of panders to a specific element, so I don't think it's out of place for a Jewish organization to do the same.

I do, however, agree with Carlito in that I don't believe that we need specific "hate-crime" laws, (or for that matter, a cafeteria list of "protected classes" for civil rights.)

It should be simple enough that individuals deserve to be treated as individuals. No more, no less...

No actually, thats not true at all. There is no need, nor has there been a need for 50 odd years, to establish a case for Israel. Its existence is now the status Quo, even the majority of its Arab neighbours have aknowledged that.



Well, you are correct on this one (if you strip away your standard exaggeration), yes some jew do often bring up the Holocaust, but then again, given the existence of the holocause just a generation and a half ago, there are some who might say thats not unreasonable...



I have never heard of any jews state that theirs is a 'dying race', thats something of an invention on your part. As for the second, the only jews that speak of the need for a state of their own are those small number of jews who have been in a coma for 60 years.



OK, there is a lot of controvercy about the Palestinian question, an enormous amount, of course. There is certainly a lot of room to criticise the actions of Israel regarding the Palestinians, probably about as much room as to criticise Palestine and its neighbours about their actions towards Israel. There is clearly plenty of blame to go around. However, the only people who link any of this and the holocaust would be you. say what you will about Israel and the Palestinians, I will even agree with some of your criticisms, but they have nothing to do with the holocaust at all.



After spending some minutes slogging through this terrible sentence, I was able to figure out the following:
-Calling everyone who disagrees with you a Nazi: actually the Isralis are the LAST people in the world to do that. Arbitrarily naming your opponents Nazis it common in the US, the UK, the western media, all over the place, everywhere EXCEPT Israel. They at least understand the gravitas of such a label, and use it sparingly. You could not possibly be more wrong on that one.
-Disagreeing on the number of Jewish dead: yes, there is some disagreement in legitimate historical circles, the number of jewish dead in the holocaust is between 4.5 and 5.5 million. Anybody who huesses less than 4.5 is simply ignorant of the facts and the vast quantities of Data, mostly compiled by the Nazis. The total dead of the holocaust, including all groups is between 6 and 9 million, depending on what you count as 'the Holocaust'. Were Soviet POWs who were starved to death part of the 'Holocaust' or were they simply war casualties? If the former, then we get into the 9 million dead range. If not, then the general number is about 6.5 to 7.5 million.
-The holocaust is a sad event: yes, you are correct, it is.



Now that one you are going to have to explain. Is the historical state of Israel (and Judea, there were two 'jewish' states there at one point) somewhere else? Was there some geographical error or lie? Please feel free to try and explain that vitrioloc statement.



It may astonish you to know that the Anti-defamation league is not the only organisation dedicated to preventing discrimination against a specific minority. You seem to presume otherwise.

Oh, and despite the terrible rule of Mugabe, there is nothing even approaching a genocide going on in Zimbabwe, and what the heck are you talking about with South Africa?

Unfortunately, you're largely right. A lot of groups, Jews included, look for discrimination first and ignore other alternatives. If someone paints graffiti on a Jewish-owned building, regardless of what the graffiti says, it MUST be anti-semitic. Anyone who dislikes what Israel does is obviously a Jew-hater. A jew gets mugged? It must have been religiously motivated! The list goes on and on.

That's not to say that there isn't real anti-semitism out there, just like there is real racism, but it's not nearly as blatant or wide-spread as they want everyone to believe. Sometimes, believe it or not, a crime is just a crime and it has nothing whatsoever to do with the color of your skin or your religious beliefs.

I'm sorry, I could not disagree more. This is nothing but a steriotype, baseless but repeated anyways for impact. Israel literally NEVER plays the anti-semetism card internationally, even when it could with justification. When Iran holds a conference called 'A world without Israel' and the Iranian President speaks publicly about the foreign policy objective of driving the Israelis into the sea, Israel does not yell anti-semitism. As a state, I think you will be very hard pressed to find a single occasion when Israel plays that card in recent years. People CLAIM israel does this all the time, but only people who have made up their minds without bothering to actually inform themselves.

As to your more individual argument, yes, I suppose it does happen that individuials targeted play a race or religion card too often. Jews probably do it, though no more than any other minority. However your examples are silly. Firstly, I DARE you: search the web all you want, find an example where graffiti was sprayed on a sinagogue that was not obviously nazi or anti-semitic, where somebody played the anti-semitism card. If you can find even ONE single example, I will accept your point, but I doubt you can.

As for random people being the victim of random mugging, and somebody playing the race/religion card, again I wonder if anyone has any actual evidence of this happening, or if it is just 'something everyone knows because they hard it once from some guy who heard it'.

Yes, it happens that minorities sometimes do play the persecution card when it is not warranted, but I will bet money that this happens FAR less than you think, and that far more often they play the persecution card justifiably. After all, in your futile web-search for non-racist graffiti sprayed on synagogues, you might take note of just how frequently obviously racist and nazi graffiti IS sprayed on synagogues.

How would you characterize the level of anti-semitism in [the] United States? Non-existent, low, moderate, or high?

The league had good reason to form in 1913. The problem with many advocacy groups is their importance and influence waxes and wanes with the needs of the people they represent. Eventually splinter groups may form and fill a new niche. Unions are a good example. As society, and by extension labor, changes, today’s working class doesn’t perceive a need to unionize and membership dwindles. However, changes in membership numbers are static as long as the status quo holds.

Currently the level of anti-semitism within the U.S. is relatively low compared to the rest of the world, and it has largely to do with our foreign and religious interests in Israel. The double-edged support the religious interest provides isn’t appreciated.

Additionally, spying between the U.S. and Israel doesn’t seem to phase the public or the government the way the Soviet threat did. Suspected offenders face trial but overall the government doesn’t stage pubic statements demanding Israel condemn the spying and/or promise to desist—or else. As a result of the low key investigations and convictions, with the exception of skinheads and other people that don’t need a reason to hate Jews, the agitation necessary to move public opinion against Jews is absent. In contrast our foreign policy towards Afghanistan and Iraq has resulted in a sharp increase in vandalism and other racially motivated crimes against U.S. Muslims. (I’ll amend this post and provide a link to a Muslim advocacy group keeping tabs on these incidents later. Our web filter blocks advocacy groups.)

Unlike other civil rights organizations and despite its own motto which calls for "justice and fair treatment for all citizens", ADL concentrates exclusively on anti-semitism. Do you think that there's a need for powerful, well-funded organization such as ADL to defend Jewish people in United States and abroad?

Not within the U.S. currently, especially with groups like the ACLU interested in a clientele as diversified as the issues it covers. Abroad is another matter. ADL's time and money may be better spent circumventing and diminishing foreign anti-Semitism.

I take issue with this statement. The fact is, countless Palestinian towns and villages were ethnically cleansed after the artificial creation of the state of israel. I refer the interested reader to this website which contains many examples such as this one alongside other information of interest.

That's strange. I can't edit my original post.



I can't find the website I had seen originally, but here's a 2002 article: FBI sees leap in anti-Muslim hate crimes. Here are sample articles of Muslim harassment and vandalism from the Muslim Civil Rights Center.

1) To our shame, the anti-Semitism is "moderate."

2) The ADL does more than protect Jews from defamation, and such explains why the ADL has spoken out in reference to any number of ethnic and religious groups.


Ben:

Palestianian propaganda sites are NOT the best sources for reliable information. The 700,000 or so your chosen site claims were cleansed were not all cleansed. True, there was some cleansing, or as I prefer to say it, forcible removal, but the majority left voluntarily. I would suggest that you view, if possible, that video documentary that was on PBS entitled The 50 Years War, wherein you can hear Palestinians themselves saying that no rape and no murder of pregnant women occurred at Deir Yassin, that some objected to the Arab media claiming that there had been [and in the hope that such would stir up Arabs throughout the region such that they would come and crush the fledgling Israel], that such was the reason why the majority left voluntarily, and that if there was a Nakhba, that such catastrophe was in broadcasting false information that could only serve to frighten the very people it was supposed to help protect. And the two witnesses that you need to hear are a resident of Deir Yassin who was there at the time, and our man Mr. Nusseibeh, who was then working for the Palestine Broadcasting Service. Our resident denied the murder of pregnant women, as well as the rape, and Nusseibeh lamented the fact that his objection to the false reporting went unheeded and that as a result, a population frightened by images of the murder of pregnant women and rape fled for their very lives, albeit mistakenly so...

I would like to provide you with a link to either view the interviews or hear them sans the video, but here's the best I can do for now [http://www.melaniephillips.com/diary/archives/001437.html]:

"'The plan backfired. As a result of this propaganda, Arab civilians
panicked and fled by the tens of thousands. This was confirmed in
the 1993 PBS documentary called The Fifty Years of War in which
Deir Yassin survivors were interviewed. They testified that they
had begged Dr. Hussein Khalidi, director of Voice of Palestine (the
Palestinian radio station in East Jerusalem) to edit out the lies and fabrications of atrocities that never happened. He told them: "We must capitalize on this great opportunity!""

And so goes the Nakhba, and it adds a whole new meaning to what it means to capitalize on this great opportunity...

And to stick with Melanie's site, as to why Gaza camps, at least initially so:

"'Moreover, we have information from a famous source, Yassir Arafat himself (his authorized biography, by Alan Hart, Arafat: Terrorist or Peace Maker) that the Deir Yassin lies were spread "like a red flag in front of a bull" by the Egyptians. Then, having terrorized them with these stories, the Egyptians proceeded to disarm the Arabs of the area and herd them into detention camps in Gaza (today’s Gaza refugee camps). Why did the Egyptians do this? According to Arafat, it was to get the Arabs out of the area because the Egyptians wanted a free hand to wage their war."

And for why we still have the camps, (1) they make for good propaganda and (2) as with me, who is settled in and has a life here in the US and thus has no strong desire to ever return to the sod of ancient Ireland, so too with our Palestinian friends, i.e., take them out of camps and put them in homes they can truly call their own in the West Bank and within a generation all this talk of "return" will end, and some just cannot have that result.

Oh, and note the cruelest of cruel ironies. Those on the Palestinian side who want to keep the camps for purposes of both propaganda and keeping alive a cause they believe worth dying and killing for, well, since they still have their kith and kin in those camps, there's just that much more room for Jewish/Israeli settlement, is there not?

Lastly, if you bear with me, I will give you Mr. Nusseibeh's first name, and the complete name of that male resident of Deir Yassin who was interviewed for the documentary. And if allowed by forum rules, I will post their comments from their interviews that made it into the documentary.

Sorry, found a part of it on another discussion board [http://www.emigrant.ie/boards/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=print_topic;f=2;t=004630]:

"Contrary to claims from Arab propagandists at the time and some since, no evidence has ever been produced that any women were raped. On the contrary, every villager ever interviewed has denied these allegations. Like many of the claims, this was a deliberate propaganda ploy, but one that backfired. Hazam Nusseibi [my note, but should be "Nusseibeh"], who worked for the Palestine Broadcasting Service in 1948, admitted being told by Hussein Khalidi, a Palestinian Arab leader, to fabricate the atrocity claims. Abu Mahmud, a Deir Yassin resident in 1948 told Khalidi "there was no rape," but Khalidi replied, "We have to say this, so the Arab armies will come to liberate Palestine from the Jews." Nusseibeh told the BBC 50 years later, "This was our biggest mistake. We did not realize how our people would react. As soon as they heard that women had been raped at Deir Yassin, Palestinians fled in terror."

Now that I see the name, that's it, Abu Mahmud [alternate spelling now that the aberrant neuron is now back with me, Abu Mahmoud], our man from Deir Yassin. If it were up to me, he could return home, should he so choose. He, for one, could live in peace with our Jewish/Israeli friends, or so it seems to me from his demeanor and remarks as observed and broadcast in the noted documentary.

Sorry, one more. Another link for the quote reprinted on the other discussion board:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsourc...r_yassin.html#7

And note the footnote to the original source, i.e., the BBC.

How would you characterize the level of anti-semitism in United States? Non-existent, low, moderate, or high?
It's relatively low. Compared to other places around the world like Saudi Arabia or France the USA doesn't have a lot of anti-semitism. Most of America's virulent anti-semitism comes from ignorant fringe groups with no credibility. There is some, more subtle, anti-semitism among the elite where Jews aren't allowed to join exclusive country clubs and such but as mild as that is, it's starting to fade away.

Unlike other civil rights organizations and despite its own motto which calls for "justice and fair treatment for all citizens", ADL concentrates exclusively on anti-semitism. Do you think that there's a need for powerful, well-funded organization such as ADL to defend Jewish people in United States and abroad?
During the entire history of western society there has been widespread anti-semitism. Just look at the Middle Ages when Jews were accused of drinking the blood of christian children and abusing communion wafers or at the Spanish inquisition when Jews were expelled from Spain and tortured, or the pogroms in Russia, or the holocaust. This history of oppression is ingrained in the Jewish consciousness. Now I'll agree that currently anti-semitism is much less prevalent then it has been but every Jewish person in the world has a stake in preventing flare ups in anti-semitism. The ADL is very important in fighting anti-semitism, even if it's relatively minor. But today it's vandalizing synagogues, tomorrow it's putting people to death for abusing communion wafers.