Full Version: Binge drinkers & Booze Hounds?
Guardian news story
The Blair government in London (I refuse to call it "Labour", as they betray most of the core values of the movement) has overhauled the rather antiquated alcohol licensing laws that we have had in the UK since WW1.
If you've never visited, public houses ('pubs') and bars in England & Wales have been legally obliged to close at 11.00pm (10.30pm on Sundays). Off licences generally have to close at 10pm (Scottish bars have for many years had their own laws on this, closer to those in America or the rest of Europe). Nightclubs are usually open for fewer hours, but their 'dancing' or 'music' licences allow them to stay open later, especially at weekends.
And since the last licencing shake-up, about a decade ago, most pubs and clubs have been able to open a few hours later at weekends, though only by special arrangement with the relevent licencing authority.
The origins of these laws stem from WW1, as I said; the idea was to make sure that workers in the munitions factories were not too badly hungover at work from drinking into the small hours.
However, these rules change on 24 November to allow "24-hour licensing". Alcohol vendors, whether 'on-trade' (those selling to people drinking on the premises) or 'off-trade' (predictably enough, those selling to people drinking elsewhere) apply to local authorities (the local council) for a licence to sell alcohol, stating the hours during which they plan to open. Depending on the location, and any local objections, most premises are likely to be granted the hours they apply for.
The new law also provides extra powers to police and licensing authorites to revoke licences, close down problem premises, and so on.
Comparatively few places have applied for round-the-clock licences, but most have asked that they be allowed to open until later than 11.00pm.
So far, so civilised.
However, at the same time as providing responsible drinkers with the opportunity not to be shooed away by staff at 11.20 (there has historically been a 20-minute 'drinking-up time'), many commentators, and some senior policemen, have expressed dismay that town and city centre areas with high-densities of pubs, bars and nightclubs are already sources of trouble.
Something like 70% or more of emergency room admissions, assaults, and arrests after 10pm are alcohol related (one or more parties in any scuffle has usually been drinking).
For some reason, unlike the rest of continental Europe, the British are (and have always been) quite aggressive drunks. The French or Czechs might drink more alcohol, but the average Brit is more likely to cram their consumption into a short time-frame and become loud & agressive because of it.
This 'binge-drinking' culture may or may not be caused by the current licensing regime - the idea that almost 100 years of restricted hours of drinking has trained the British to drink too much too quickly is the main driver behind the government's desire to change things.
Questions for debate:
If you were in charge in your own country, how would you balance the right of people to freely enjoy a legal intoxicant (i.e. alcohol), with the short-term (violence, petty crime and long term (dependency & health problems) effects?
[b]If you have any experience of the British 'at play' (!), how would you suggest the their organise their alcohol licensing?
The Blair government in London (I refuse to call it "Labour", as they betray most of the core values of the movement) has overhauled the rather antiquated alcohol licensing laws that we have had in the UK since WW1.
If you've never visited, public houses ('pubs') and bars in England & Wales have been legally obliged to close at 11.00pm (10.30pm on Sundays). Off licences generally have to close at 10pm (Scottish bars have for many years had their own laws on this, closer to those in America or the rest of Europe). Nightclubs are usually open for fewer hours, but their 'dancing' or 'music' licences allow them to stay open later, especially at weekends.
And since the last licencing shake-up, about a decade ago, most pubs and clubs have been able to open a few hours later at weekends, though only by special arrangement with the relevent licencing authority.
The origins of these laws stem from WW1, as I said; the idea was to make sure that workers in the munitions factories were not too badly hungover at work from drinking into the small hours.
However, these rules change on 24 November to allow "24-hour licensing". Alcohol vendors, whether 'on-trade' (those selling to people drinking on the premises) or 'off-trade' (predictably enough, those selling to people drinking elsewhere) apply to local authorities (the local council) for a licence to sell alcohol, stating the hours during which they plan to open. Depending on the location, and any local objections, most premises are likely to be granted the hours they apply for.
The new law also provides extra powers to police and licensing authorites to revoke licences, close down problem premises, and so on.
Comparatively few places have applied for round-the-clock licences, but most have asked that they be allowed to open until later than 11.00pm.
So far, so civilised.
However, at the same time as providing responsible drinkers with the opportunity not to be shooed away by staff at 11.20 (there has historically been a 20-minute 'drinking-up time'), many commentators, and some senior policemen, have expressed dismay that town and city centre areas with high-densities of pubs, bars and nightclubs are already sources of trouble.
Something like 70% or more of emergency room admissions, assaults, and arrests after 10pm are alcohol related (one or more parties in any scuffle has usually been drinking).
For some reason, unlike the rest of continental Europe, the British are (and have always been) quite aggressive drunks. The French or Czechs might drink more alcohol, but the average Brit is more likely to cram their consumption into a short time-frame and become loud & agressive because of it.
This 'binge-drinking' culture may or may not be caused by the current licensing regime - the idea that almost 100 years of restricted hours of drinking has trained the British to drink too much too quickly is the main driver behind the government's desire to change things.
Questions for debate:
If you were in charge in your own country, how would you balance the right of people to freely enjoy a legal intoxicant (i.e. alcohol), with the short-term (violence, petty crime and long term (dependency & health problems) effects?
[b]If you have any experience of the British 'at play' (!), how would you suggest the their organise their alcohol licensing?
No restricted licensing hours at all. We live in a 24/7 society now and there's no reason that shift workers and others with "odd" work hours should not have the same relaxation opportunities as the rest of us. A tax on alcohol to fund treatment programs for alcoholics and tough laws on drunk driving & alcohol-related violence are all the government should be involved with.
As a Brit living in L.A. which has a 2 am closing time, I see the difference in action. I frequent several local British pubs with a high proportion of ex-pat clientele and I just don't see the kind of intoxication levels I do when I'm back in the UK., sure some get drunker than they should but you don't get that "Power drinking" syndrome, trying to down 6 pints of lager before the Last orders bell. Typically the pubs are near empty by last call, people having had their fill at their leisure and toddled off to bed.
As a Brit living in L.A. which has a 2 am closing time, I see the difference in action. I frequent several local British pubs with a high proportion of ex-pat clientele and I just don't see the kind of intoxication levels I do when I'm back in the UK., sure some get drunker than they should but you don't get that "Power drinking" syndrome, trying to down 6 pints of lager before the Last orders bell. Typically the pubs are near empty by last call, people having had their fill at their leisure and toddled off to bed.
I'm in agreement. My extensive experience with bars, pubs, ginmills and dives is that people tend to change their drinking habits based upon time the establishment will close. When I was a bartender for years we would always get a rush of people twenty minutes or so before closing time. People would purchase drinks just to pound them down in short order. It was never just for the enjoyment of the drink at those times.
One intereting thing I noticed when in England was the time people went out. People were already pushing eachother out the door at 6 PM in order to get to the pub. In the U.S. people shuffle on in regularly at 10:30... (this could be an argument saying that pubs don't need to be open longer as it seems people tend to drink for only about 3-4 hours no matter what time frames you allow them.)
I did, however, notice more of a beer swilling, "I'm on a schedule" attitude to the drinking in England. American college kids can easily hold their own in this regard however.
It is my opinion that the fights and disorderly behavior will diminish as the people get used to the new times. It makes no sense to tell adults that they can't stay out, at a pub with friends, past 10 PM. This is surely a sensible change.
One intereting thing I noticed when in England was the time people went out. People were already pushing eachother out the door at 6 PM in order to get to the pub. In the U.S. people shuffle on in regularly at 10:30... (this could be an argument saying that pubs don't need to be open longer as it seems people tend to drink for only about 3-4 hours no matter what time frames you allow them.)
I did, however, notice more of a beer swilling, "I'm on a schedule" attitude to the drinking in England. American college kids can easily hold their own in this regard however.
It is my opinion that the fights and disorderly behavior will diminish as the people get used to the new times. It makes no sense to tell adults that they can't stay out, at a pub with friends, past 10 PM. This is surely a sensible change.
If you were in charge in your own country, how would you balance the right of people to freely enjoy a legal intoxicant (i.e. alcohol), with the short-term (violence, petty crime and long term (dependency & health problems) effects?
I would probably go with 24/7 allowance as well. I don't drink at all, so it certainly wouldn't have any direct effect on me, but I don't think restricting the time frame in which one is allowed to purchse alcohol does much good. Arizona recently changed their alcohol curfew from 1 a.m. to 2 a.m. (or 2 to 3...can't recall). I am fairly certain that nothing changed statistically in terms of crimes and such - with the exception that maybe most of the 'problems' were happening an hour later. Maybe with a less restrictive policy (or one with no restrictions at all), people will be less inclined to drink themselves silly in a short period of time. I'd think that would be true, but I have little to no personal experience to back up this assumption.
If you have any experience of the British 'at play' (!), how would you suggest the their organise their alcohol licensing?
I don't have experience with British pubs (dh has lots of experience with heavily drinking Brits through his work while in Belgium
), but I know that in Belgium, people were pretty darn sensible when it came to alcohol. I recall people telling us how people would make a night out of eating out (spend 3-5 hours in a restaurant) - drinking and enjoying themselves and staying long enough to sober up. It was so true. I know dh would tell me stories about how the British guys in his office would just pound down beers like they were going out of style...I had no idea that the laws were so restrictive! I'd certainly imagine it has a lot to do with the "drinking culture". I'd think relaxing the insane 11 p.m. rule might do some good...I think the good would probably outweight the bad (at least eventually).
I would probably go with 24/7 allowance as well. I don't drink at all, so it certainly wouldn't have any direct effect on me, but I don't think restricting the time frame in which one is allowed to purchse alcohol does much good. Arizona recently changed their alcohol curfew from 1 a.m. to 2 a.m. (or 2 to 3...can't recall). I am fairly certain that nothing changed statistically in terms of crimes and such - with the exception that maybe most of the 'problems' were happening an hour later. Maybe with a less restrictive policy (or one with no restrictions at all), people will be less inclined to drink themselves silly in a short period of time. I'd think that would be true, but I have little to no personal experience to back up this assumption.
If you have any experience of the British 'at play' (!), how would you suggest the their organise their alcohol licensing?
I don't have experience with British pubs (dh has lots of experience with heavily drinking Brits through his work while in Belgium
), but I know that in Belgium, people were pretty darn sensible when it came to alcohol. I recall people telling us how people would make a night out of eating out (spend 3-5 hours in a restaurant) - drinking and enjoying themselves and staying long enough to sober up. It was so true. I know dh would tell me stories about how the British guys in his office would just pound down beers like they were going out of style...I had no idea that the laws were so restrictive! I'd certainly imagine it has a lot to do with the "drinking culture". I'd think relaxing the insane 11 p.m. rule might do some good...I think the good would probably outweight the bad (at least eventually).
If you were in charge in your own country, how would you balance the right of people to freely enjoy a legal intoxicant (i.e. alcohol), with the short-term (violence, petty crime and long term (dependency & health problems) effects?
Well, here in Denmark most places are already open almost 24/7 (from thursday to saturday). There is one general rule however, and that is that bars must be closed between 2 and 5 am, but special local councils can make exceptions from that rule, and most have no reservations about doing so. These local councils also have the power to close down bars or restrict the opening hours of bars, if they turn out to be sources of problems, but that is rare. In short, I would have no problem with allowing 24/7 sale of alcohol to adults, because I don't see any problems in doing so. Of course there are other rules that should be imposed, that would diminish the problems resulting from people getting intoxicated, but generally Danish people are not mean drunks, neither have I experienced mean english drunks at any of the pubs I have attended in England. Of course I was surprised the first time I was in a bar and the proprietor announced they were closing at 11 pm - we had barely thrown down more than a couple of pints. Luckily you have those "dancing places" that can serve alcohol after 11 pm, or else I would have been bored silly those days in London.
If you have any experience of the British 'at play' (!), how would you suggest the their organise their alcohol licensing?
The behavior of certain individuals should not help impose limits on other people, who might like to enjoy a beer at 2 pm in their favorite pub. Anybody that causes trouble should be banned from the bars they frequent - that is working in my city, where we have a famous "bar-street". Several people, many of them from notorious biker gangs, are banned from attending any bars in that street, and the bouncers as well as the police rigourously enforce these bans. Actually bouncers are required by law to throw out troublemakers, and bars here are obliged to hire licensed bouncers if trouble frequently occurs (or else they might loose their license). This seems to work fairly well. I don't know if you have these kinds of rules in Britain.
edited for grammar
Well, here in Denmark most places are already open almost 24/7 (from thursday to saturday). There is one general rule however, and that is that bars must be closed between 2 and 5 am, but special local councils can make exceptions from that rule, and most have no reservations about doing so. These local councils also have the power to close down bars or restrict the opening hours of bars, if they turn out to be sources of problems, but that is rare. In short, I would have no problem with allowing 24/7 sale of alcohol to adults, because I don't see any problems in doing so. Of course there are other rules that should be imposed, that would diminish the problems resulting from people getting intoxicated, but generally Danish people are not mean drunks, neither have I experienced mean english drunks at any of the pubs I have attended in England. Of course I was surprised the first time I was in a bar and the proprietor announced they were closing at 11 pm - we had barely thrown down more than a couple of pints. Luckily you have those "dancing places" that can serve alcohol after 11 pm, or else I would have been bored silly those days in London.
If you have any experience of the British 'at play' (!), how would you suggest the their organise their alcohol licensing?
The behavior of certain individuals should not help impose limits on other people, who might like to enjoy a beer at 2 pm in their favorite pub. Anybody that causes trouble should be banned from the bars they frequent - that is working in my city, where we have a famous "bar-street". Several people, many of them from notorious biker gangs, are banned from attending any bars in that street, and the bouncers as well as the police rigourously enforce these bans. Actually bouncers are required by law to throw out troublemakers, and bars here are obliged to hire licensed bouncers if trouble frequently occurs (or else they might loose their license). This seems to work fairly well. I don't know if you have these kinds of rules in Britain.
edited for grammar
What? No more cries of "Time, gentlemen, please!"?
1. Here in the USA, laws about the sale of alcohol vary greatly from place to place. Here's just one random example:
Link
The United States is a crazy quilt when it comes to alcohol laws. There are totally "dry" places (you can't buy the famous Tennessee whiskey Jack Daniels in the county where it is manufactured.) There are places where you can get booze anytime you want it.
I favor reasonable restrictions on the use of alcohol, such as an age limit for purchasing it. I would also support strong laws against drunk driving, education in the dangers of alcohol, and so on. I would also support the right of adults to drink responsibly. Certainly, I would support the right -- indeed, the responsibility -- for businesses which provide alcohol to refuse to serve those who are impaired.
2. I have no experience with British pubs. To the typical American, pubs seem "cute" -- places full of old-fashioned wooden furniture, with a lot of colorful characters making witty remarks and singing traditional songs, enjoying a friendly game of darts, and in general being as pleasant as you could imagine. I'm sure that the truth is somewhat different. The new law seems reasonable to me.
1. Here in the USA, laws about the sale of alcohol vary greatly from place to place. Here's just one random example:
Link
QUOTE
PALATKA, FL -- City Commissioners voted Thursday on a new ordinance that will stop 24-hour alcohol sales at some bars and restuarants.
The new law will allow businesses that mostly serve alcohol to stay open from 7 a.m. to 2 a.m. Monday through Saturday, and 1 p.m. to midnight on Sunday.
The new law will allow businesses that mostly serve alcohol to stay open from 7 a.m. to 2 a.m. Monday through Saturday, and 1 p.m. to midnight on Sunday.
The United States is a crazy quilt when it comes to alcohol laws. There are totally "dry" places (you can't buy the famous Tennessee whiskey Jack Daniels in the county where it is manufactured.) There are places where you can get booze anytime you want it.
I favor reasonable restrictions on the use of alcohol, such as an age limit for purchasing it. I would also support strong laws against drunk driving, education in the dangers of alcohol, and so on. I would also support the right of adults to drink responsibly. Certainly, I would support the right -- indeed, the responsibility -- for businesses which provide alcohol to refuse to serve those who are impaired.
2. I have no experience with British pubs. To the typical American, pubs seem "cute" -- places full of old-fashioned wooden furniture, with a lot of colorful characters making witty remarks and singing traditional songs, enjoying a friendly game of darts, and in general being as pleasant as you could imagine. I'm sure that the truth is somewhat different. The new law seems reasonable to me.
If you were in charge in your own country, how would you balance the right of people to freely enjoy a legal intoxicant (i.e. alcohol), with the short-term (violence, petty crime and long term (dependency & health problems) effects?
I'm not sure it's possible to completely eradicate the ill effects of drinking. The United States tried with Prohibition, which was a notorious failure. Some people are going to drink, and that's all there is to it. And a certain percentage of them are going to be violent, boorish and/or dangerous as a result.
I don't drink, mostly because I am on certain medications that preclude it. I do like to have a cocktail once in a while, but I'm not a "bar person." So my opinion is hardly expert.
If you have any experience of the British 'at play' (!), how would you suggest the their organise their alcohol licensing?
When I was in England in 1999, I visited a handful of pubs. I see no real harm in allowing people to drink later than 11 PM; as others have pointed out, 'training' people to slam one beer after another, double quick before the pub closes, does them no favor. If it encourages people to relax, slow down and enjoy themselves more responsibly, it will be all to the good.
I'm not sure it's possible to completely eradicate the ill effects of drinking. The United States tried with Prohibition, which was a notorious failure. Some people are going to drink, and that's all there is to it. And a certain percentage of them are going to be violent, boorish and/or dangerous as a result.
I don't drink, mostly because I am on certain medications that preclude it. I do like to have a cocktail once in a while, but I'm not a "bar person." So my opinion is hardly expert.
If you have any experience of the British 'at play' (!), how would you suggest the their organise their alcohol licensing?
When I was in England in 1999, I visited a handful of pubs. I see no real harm in allowing people to drink later than 11 PM; as others have pointed out, 'training' people to slam one beer after another, double quick before the pub closes, does them no favor. If it encourages people to relax, slow down and enjoy themselves more responsibly, it will be all to the good.
QUOTE(kmsouthern @ Nov 16 2005, 12:11 AM)
Maybe with a less restrictive policy (or one with no restrictions at all), people will be less inclined to drink themselves silly in a short period of time. I'd think that would be true, but I have little to no personal experience to back up this assumption.
I know dh would tell me stories about how the British guys in his office would just pound down beers like they were going out of style...I had no idea that the laws were so restrictive! I'd certainly imagine it has a lot to do with the "drinking culture". I'd think relaxing the insane 11 p.m. rule might do some good...I think the good would probably outweight the bad (at least eventually).
I know dh would tell me stories about how the British guys in his office would just pound down beers like they were going out of style...I had no idea that the laws were so restrictive! I'd certainly imagine it has a lot to do with the "drinking culture". I'd think relaxing the insane 11 p.m. rule might do some good...I think the good would probably outweight the bad (at least eventually).
QUOTE(Vibiana @ Nov 16 2005, 04:38 PM)
When I was in England in 1999, I visited a handful of pubs. I see no real harm in allowing people to drink later than 11 PM; as others have pointed out, 'training' people to slam one beer after another, double quick before the pub closes, does them no favor. If it encourages people to relax, slow down and enjoy themselves more responsibly, it will be all to the good.
I think this idea is behind the change to the law, and I wholeheartedly agree with it. There is already a law against serving alcohol to someone who is already drunk, though it is somewhat sporadically obeyed.
Drink driving is pretty much as universally despised in the UK as in the US - perhaps more so.
I think that, eventually, the British will settle down into more leisurely drinking. However, the "happy hours" and other drinks promotions some of the big pub chains use to shift more alcohol more quickly will have to disappear, as well as the 11 o'clock shut-tap, before the "binge drinking culture" does.
However, I reckon they will be a good few months of increased troublesomeness (?), maybe even a few years, while British drinkers retrain themselves. And next weekend (immediately after the law changes) will be utter Bedlam.
I'm quite looking forward to it, myself *hic*
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