Full Version: On this day in History
On the sunny afternoon of 11/22/63, President John F. Kennedy was struck down by a sniper as his motorcade was just ending a tour of downtown Dallas, TX.
Much speculation has surrounded this case for decades. The "official" version was that a disaffected left wing radical, Lee Harvey Oswald, shot Kennedy and that he acted alone.
The questions for debate are
1. Did Oswald kill JFK and did he act alone?
2. Was there a conspiracy. If so, who killed JFK?
Much speculation has surrounded this case for decades. The "official" version was that a disaffected left wing radical, Lee Harvey Oswald, shot Kennedy and that he acted alone.
The questions for debate are
1. Did Oswald kill JFK and did he act alone?
2. Was there a conspiracy. If so, who killed JFK?
QUOTE(lordhelmet @ Nov 22 2005, 12:21 PM)
On the sunny afternoon of 11/22/63, President John F. Kennedy was struck down by a sniper as his motorcade was just ending a tour of downtown Dallas, TX.
Much speculation has surrounded this case for decades. The "official" version was that a disaffected left wing radical, Lee Harvey Oswald, shot Kennedy and that he acted alone.
The questions for debate are
1. Did Oswald kill JFK and did he act alone?
2. Was there a conspiracy. If so, who killed JFK?
Much speculation has surrounded this case for decades. The "official" version was that a disaffected left wing radical, Lee Harvey Oswald, shot Kennedy and that he acted alone.
The questions for debate are
1. Did Oswald kill JFK and did he act alone?
2. Was there a conspiracy. If so, who killed JFK?
Mmmh LH these are not the easiest questions.
The truth is still out there but propably we will not find it ourselves. These two questions have been tackled by many reknown scholars, but it hardly brought any answers. There is still alot of disagreement. In my opinion it will always be a mystery (or we have to find new and clear evidence that could change the general opinions). 1. Did Oswald kill JFK and did he act alone?
Difficult to give a clear answer. One thing that is known is the fact that Oswald could never have acted on his own. (it is scientifically impossible!) The fact that he played a part in the assasination at all is still questionable.
What we know for a fact is that JFK was killed by long-ranged shots from different angles. From that we can conclude that the assasination has been planned and set in motion by a group of people. Who these people were I will leave in the middle at this moment because it will be speculation, although I must admit that the CIA is looking really suspicious.
2. Was there a conspiracy. If so, who killed JFK?
Was there a conspiracy?; probably: who killed JFK? The million dollar question! Even if I had strong suspicions: I lack the proof, just like all the other eminent history professors who tried to answer this question before us.
QUOTE(Renger @ Nov 22 2005, 08:47 AM)
Difficult to give a clear answer. One thing that is known is the fact that Oswald could never have acted on his own. (it is scientifically impossible!) The fact that he played a part in the assasination at all is still questionable.
What we know for a fact is that JFK was killed by long-ranged shots from different angles. From that we can conclude that the assasination has been planned and set in motion by a group of people. Who these people were I will leave in the middle at this moment because it will be speculation, although I must admit that the CIA is looking really suspicious.
Why is Oswald acting alone a "scientific impossibility?" Please explain. Also, all of the forensic and physical evidence disputes the notion that JFK was killed by shots from "different angles". All of it matches Oswald's gun and the trajectory of all shots was from the rear right. Furthermore, all of the spent ammunition (fragments, etc.) was matched to Oswald's ammunition.
Please clarify what you are talking about.
1. Did Oswald kill JFK and did he act alone?
Yes on the first and I have no idea whether he at least told someone before hand.
2. Was there a conspiracy. If so, who killed JFK?
No conspiracy in the sense of more than one person being involved with the killing. Oswald clearly was the lone killer. All the bullets and shells are traceable to his gun. A couple of problems still attend the Warren Commission conclusions.
1. The president's head snapping backward in the Zapruder film which would suggest a shot from the front.
2. The trajectory of the bullet that passed through Kennedy first, hit Connally and then took a few twists and turns before exiting. Connally himself insists each man was hit by separate bullets.
Problems aside, a greater burden rests with the conspiracy theorists to develop an alternative narrative based on solid evidence. So far all have failed. Not one shell was found in the vicinity of the grassy knoll etc. Jack Ruby knowing some Mafia boss or public official or Oswald for that matter doesn't prove a damn thing.
Yes on the first and I have no idea whether he at least told someone before hand.
2. Was there a conspiracy. If so, who killed JFK?
No conspiracy in the sense of more than one person being involved with the killing. Oswald clearly was the lone killer. All the bullets and shells are traceable to his gun. A couple of problems still attend the Warren Commission conclusions.
1. The president's head snapping backward in the Zapruder film which would suggest a shot from the front.
2. The trajectory of the bullet that passed through Kennedy first, hit Connally and then took a few twists and turns before exiting. Connally himself insists each man was hit by separate bullets.
Problems aside, a greater burden rests with the conspiracy theorists to develop an alternative narrative based on solid evidence. So far all have failed. Not one shell was found in the vicinity of the grassy knoll etc. Jack Ruby knowing some Mafia boss or public official or Oswald for that matter doesn't prove a damn thing.
QUOTE(lordhelmet @ Nov 22 2005, 02:22 PM)
Why is Oswald acting alone a "scientific impossibility?" Please explain. Also, all of the forensic and physical evidence disputes the notion that JFK was killed by shots from "different angles". All of it matches Oswald's gun and the trajectory of all shots was from the rear right. Furthermore, all of the spent ammunition (fragments, etc.) was matched to Oswald's ammunition.
Please clarify what you are talking about.
Please clarify what you are talking about.
You are kidding me, right? Three words: single bullet theory (also known as the magic bullet theory).
QUOTE
The single bullet theory (also known as the magic bullet theory by the majority of critics and conspiracy theorists) is the crucial element of the Warren Commission theory that only one assassin shot during the assassination of President John F. Kennedy.
The theory, generally credited to Warren Commission staffer Arlen Specter (now a US Senator), posits that a single bullet, known as "Warren Commission Exhibit 399" (also known as "CE399"), caused all of the non-fatal wounds in both President John F. Kennedy and Governor John Connally. It is an important theory because there was not enough time for one shooter to fire twice in the apparently very brief time between the injuries of the two men. The 1979 House Select Committee on Assassinations Report agreed with the theory, but differed on the time frame.
The theory, generally credited to Warren Commission staffer Arlen Specter (now a US Senator), posits that a single bullet, known as "Warren Commission Exhibit 399" (also known as "CE399"), caused all of the non-fatal wounds in both President John F. Kennedy and Governor John Connally. It is an important theory because there was not enough time for one shooter to fire twice in the apparently very brief time between the injuries of the two men. The 1979 House Select Committee on Assassinations Report agreed with the theory, but differed on the time frame.
...
QUOTE
Critics claim that a bullet that passed through several layers of clothing and flesh, destroyed a five inch (127 mm) section of a rib, broke a wrist radius bone, and shed metal fragments (some of which are buried with Connally) could not be in such nearly pristine shape, especially given that the, supposedly, same type "headshot" bullet, according to the Warren Commission, completely broke apart after passing through only two layers of less-dense skull bone.
Critics also point out that the only known examination of Kennedy's back wound, the first wound attributed to the nearly pristine bullet, is from the Bethesda pathologists, who noted a steep forty-five to sixty degree downward angle and no exit. Taking into consideration the 3-degree decline of Elm Street at the time of the Warren Commission's single bullet, the "Oswald window" was only about twenty degrees above Kennedy at the time.
Critics also point out that the only known examination of Kennedy's back wound, the first wound attributed to the nearly pristine bullet, is from the Bethesda pathologists, who noted a steep forty-five to sixty degree downward angle and no exit. Taking into consideration the 3-degree decline of Elm Street at the time of the Warren Commission's single bullet, the "Oswald window" was only about twenty degrees above Kennedy at the time.
Or maybe two words will suffice: grassy knoll
QUOTE
Some assassination theories have concluded that a shot or shots came from the north grassy knoll during the assassination. The House Select Committee on Assassinations investigation from 1975 to 1979 concluded that an unknown assassin fired the third of four shots fired at President Kennedy from behind the picket fence on the grassy knoll and that "there was a probable conspiracy in the assassination of President Kennedy."
1. Did Oswald kill JFK and did he act alone?
2. Was there a conspiracy. If so, who killed JFK?
On balance, I tend to think that Oswald probably did kill JFK and probably was acting alone.
If there was a conspiracy, I think it was less to do with the killing of JFK himself and more to do with the killing of Oswald.
After all, with him out of the way, people's imaginations were free to run riot, which would maybe have been less likely to happen had there been a formal criminal trial.
I find it a lot easier to believe that there was an official conspiracy to kill a nobody who somehow managed to outwit the entire Secret Service and intelligence community charged with Presidential defence, and an official conspiracy to create endless rumours and conjectures of shadowy plots involving the Mob, senior politicians, the military, communists and hig-placed civil servants.
Failing to stop such a shadowy conspiracy was a lot easier for the public to forgive, and a lot easier for an government agency to live with, than failing to stop a lone gun nut who had already come to official attention several times.
Certainly, there was a lot of dishonesty surrounding the JFK assassination. In my experience, though, people are far more likely to be dishonest to cover up their own foolishness, ignorance or imcompetence than they are to cover up their own malice. Genuine malice is, I believe, quite rare, thankfully.
These days, we're all a lot more cynical of the competence of public servants - for example we find it a lot easier to believe that the security services were briefed about some suspicious Arabs taking flying lessons in Florida.
NB For those who still insist that the JFK assassination, and even 9-11, had covert governmental support, please refer to Hanlon's Razor in my sig. The security services didn't kill JFK, they just screwed up and then tried to hide that fact. That said, Oliver Stone made a good movie, though I personally believe it to be a mostly fictional account.
2. Was there a conspiracy. If so, who killed JFK?
On balance, I tend to think that Oswald probably did kill JFK and probably was acting alone.
If there was a conspiracy, I think it was less to do with the killing of JFK himself and more to do with the killing of Oswald.
After all, with him out of the way, people's imaginations were free to run riot, which would maybe have been less likely to happen had there been a formal criminal trial.
I find it a lot easier to believe that there was an official conspiracy to kill a nobody who somehow managed to outwit the entire Secret Service and intelligence community charged with Presidential defence, and an official conspiracy to create endless rumours and conjectures of shadowy plots involving the Mob, senior politicians, the military, communists and hig-placed civil servants.
Failing to stop such a shadowy conspiracy was a lot easier for the public to forgive, and a lot easier for an government agency to live with, than failing to stop a lone gun nut who had already come to official attention several times.
Certainly, there was a lot of dishonesty surrounding the JFK assassination. In my experience, though, people are far more likely to be dishonest to cover up their own foolishness, ignorance or imcompetence than they are to cover up their own malice. Genuine malice is, I believe, quite rare, thankfully.
These days, we're all a lot more cynical of the competence of public servants - for example we find it a lot easier to believe that the security services were briefed about some suspicious Arabs taking flying lessons in Florida.
NB For those who still insist that the JFK assassination, and even 9-11, had covert governmental support, please refer to Hanlon's Razor in my sig. The security services didn't kill JFK, they just screwed up and then tried to hide that fact. That said, Oliver Stone made a good movie, though I personally believe it to be a mostly fictional account.
QUOTE(Renger @ Nov 22 2005, 10:33 AM)
QUOTE(lordhelmet @ Nov 22 2005, 02:22 PM)
Why is Oswald acting alone a "scientific impossibility?" Please explain. Also, all of the forensic and physical evidence disputes the notion that JFK was killed by shots from "different angles". All of it matches Oswald's gun and the trajectory of all shots was from the rear right. Furthermore, all of the spent ammunition (fragments, etc.) was matched to Oswald's ammunition.
Please clarify what you are talking about.
Please clarify what you are talking about.
You are kidding me, right? Three words: single bullet theory (also known as the magic bullet theory).
QUOTE
The single bullet theory (also known as the magic bullet theory by the majority of critics and conspiracy theorists) is the crucial element of the Warren Commission theory that only one assassin shot during the assassination of President John F. Kennedy.
The theory, generally credited to Warren Commission staffer Arlen Specter (now a US Senator), posits that a single bullet, known as "Warren Commission Exhibit 399" (also known as "CE399"), caused all of the non-fatal wounds in both President John F. Kennedy and Governor John Connally. It is an important theory because there was not enough time for one shooter to fire twice in the apparently very brief time between the injuries of the two men. The 1979 House Select Committee on Assassinations Report agreed with the theory, but differed on the time frame.
The theory, generally credited to Warren Commission staffer Arlen Specter (now a US Senator), posits that a single bullet, known as "Warren Commission Exhibit 399" (also known as "CE399"), caused all of the non-fatal wounds in both President John F. Kennedy and Governor John Connally. It is an important theory because there was not enough time for one shooter to fire twice in the apparently very brief time between the injuries of the two men. The 1979 House Select Committee on Assassinations Report agreed with the theory, but differed on the time frame.
...
QUOTE
Critics claim that a bullet that passed through several layers of clothing and flesh, destroyed a five inch (127 mm) section of a rib, broke a wrist radius bone, and shed metal fragments (some of which are buried with Connally) could not be in such nearly pristine shape, especially given that the, supposedly, same type "headshot" bullet, according to the Warren Commission, completely broke apart after passing through only two layers of less-dense skull bone.
Critics also point out that the only known examination of Kennedy's back wound, the first wound attributed to the nearly pristine bullet, is from the Bethesda pathologists, who noted a steep forty-five to sixty degree downward angle and no exit. Taking into consideration the 3-degree decline of Elm Street at the time of the Warren Commission's single bullet, the "Oswald window" was only about twenty degrees above Kennedy at the time.
Critics also point out that the only known examination of Kennedy's back wound, the first wound attributed to the nearly pristine bullet, is from the Bethesda pathologists, who noted a steep forty-five to sixty degree downward angle and no exit. Taking into consideration the 3-degree decline of Elm Street at the time of the Warren Commission's single bullet, the "Oswald window" was only about twenty degrees above Kennedy at the time.
Or maybe two words will suffice: grassy knoll
QUOTE
Some assassination theories have concluded that a shot or shots came from the north grassy knoll during the assassination. The House Select Committee on Assassinations investigation from 1975 to 1979 concluded that an unknown assassin fired the third of four shots fired at President Kennedy from behind the picket fence on the grassy knoll and that "there was a probable conspiracy in the assassination of President Kennedy."
I'm not kidding you. The single bullet theory is not a "theory"... it is "fact". The 160 gr. 6.5mm FMJ bullet behaved as designed. Both men were hit by the same bullet which was the second, not the first show (which missed). The explains Connally's version and the wounds on both men line up perfectly during the instant of the second shot. The bullet evidence, clothing evidence, and the oblong entrance wound on Connally (which shows a bullet tumbling after hitting something else) all corroborate this version.
The most recent recreations of this crime, including 3D modeling used in crime investigations today, show exactly the same thing.
The wound to Kennedy's head was made from behind. Period. The backward snap of Kennedy's head occurred after he was dead and the damage done. It was a reaction to the injury.
Grassy knoll? Go there yourself and see how unlikely a place for an assassin that is. Anyone shooting from there would be completely obvious. The place is a parking lot and it was in 1963. The "acoustic" evidence, put before the House Select committee at the 11th hour that allegedly indicated a "grassy knoll" shot has been completely refuted by the National Academy of Science.
At the end of the day, there is a lone nut. A lone left wing nut. His missed once but hit twice. And changed history.
QUOTE(lordhelmet @ Nov 22 2005, 05:57 PM)
I'm not kidding you. The single bullet theory is not a "theory"... it is "fact". The 160 gr. 6.5mm FMJ bullet behaved as designed. Both men were hit by the same bullet which was the second, not the first show (which missed). The explains Connally's version and the wounds on both men line up perfectly during the instant of the second shot. The bullet evidence, clothing evidence, and the oblong entrance wound on Connally (which shows a bullet tumbling after hitting something else) all corroborate this version.
The most recent recreations of this crime, including 3D modeling used in crime investigations today, show exactly the same thing.
The wound to Kennedy's head was made from behind. Period. The backward snap of Kennedy's head occurred after he was dead and the damage done. It was a reaction to the injury.
Grassy knoll? Go there yourself and see how unlikely a place for an assassin that is. Anyone shooting from there would be completely obvious. The place is a parking lot and it was in 1963. The "acoustic" evidence, put before the House Select committee at the 11th hour that allegedly indicated a "grassy knoll" shot has been completely refuted by the National Academy of Science.
At the end of the day, there is a lone nut. A lone left wing nut. His missed once but hit twice. And changed history.
The most recent recreations of this crime, including 3D modeling used in crime investigations today, show exactly the same thing.
The wound to Kennedy's head was made from behind. Period. The backward snap of Kennedy's head occurred after he was dead and the damage done. It was a reaction to the injury.
Grassy knoll? Go there yourself and see how unlikely a place for an assassin that is. Anyone shooting from there would be completely obvious. The place is a parking lot and it was in 1963. The "acoustic" evidence, put before the House Select committee at the 11th hour that allegedly indicated a "grassy knoll" shot has been completely refuted by the National Academy of Science.
At the end of the day, there is a lone nut. A lone left wing nut. His missed once but hit twice. And changed history.
It is interesting how you try to refute my point with absolutely no source to back up your story.
I know more then enough of the difficulties surrounding an historical reconstruction of the assasination of JFK. (I am a historian btw.) I said in my opening post that probably we will not find the answers to your question, and have tried to emphasise the fact that one should be really careful to make conclusions.
You on the other hand seem to know for sure that Oswald did it (source?). You reject the single bullet theory without giving any clear evidence (source?). Same thing happens when you try to explain that the backward snap of JFK's head was just a "reaction of the injury" instead of another shot in his head (source?). And again it happens when you try to refute the grassy knoll theory. (source?)
LH. If you are so adamant as to the facts, then why did you bother posing the questions?
What is to debate here? There is no conclusive evidence to support either theory as far as I can see. Oswald may have shot Kennedy, he may have been working along with other snipers or he may have been operating on command from some other source. Its hard to tell when he was so conveniently murdered by a man who then conveniently committed suicide.
I have also seen documentaries using the 'latest 3d technology' that showed the exact opposite. I've even seen a documentary that 'proved' Kennedy survived
and not so long ago I saw armies of Orcs invading Gondor...
Fancy animation proves nothing.
The most important lesson of the Kennedy assassinations to me is just how readily the American people accepted these murders.
What is to debate here? There is no conclusive evidence to support either theory as far as I can see. Oswald may have shot Kennedy, he may have been working along with other snipers or he may have been operating on command from some other source. Its hard to tell when he was so conveniently murdered by a man who then conveniently committed suicide.
QUOTE
The most recent recreations of this crime, including 3D modeling used in crime investigations today, show exactly the same thing.
So what?I have also seen documentaries using the 'latest 3d technology' that showed the exact opposite. I've even seen a documentary that 'proved' Kennedy survived
and not so long ago I saw armies of Orcs invading Gondor... Fancy animation proves nothing.
The most important lesson of the Kennedy assassinations to me is just how readily the American people accepted these murders.
QUOTE(Renger @ Nov 22 2005, 01:17 PM)
QUOTE(lordhelmet @ Nov 22 2005, 05:57 PM)
I'm not kidding you. The single bullet theory is not a "theory"... it is "fact". The 160 gr. 6.5mm FMJ bullet behaved as designed. Both men were hit by the same bullet which was the second, not the first show (which missed). The explains Connally's version and the wounds on both men line up perfectly during the instant of the second shot. The bullet evidence, clothing evidence, and the oblong entrance wound on Connally (which shows a bullet tumbling after hitting something else) all corroborate this version.
The most recent recreations of this crime, including 3D modeling used in crime investigations today, show exactly the same thing.
The wound to Kennedy's head was made from behind. Period. The backward snap of Kennedy's head occurred after he was dead and the damage done. It was a reaction to the injury.
Grassy knoll? Go there yourself and see how unlikely a place for an assassin that is. Anyone shooting from there would be completely obvious. The place is a parking lot and it was in 1963. The "acoustic" evidence, put before the House Select committee at the 11th hour that allegedly indicated a "grassy knoll" shot has been completely refuted by the National Academy of Science.
At the end of the day, there is a lone nut. A lone left wing nut. His missed once but hit twice. And changed history.
The most recent recreations of this crime, including 3D modeling used in crime investigations today, show exactly the same thing.
The wound to Kennedy's head was made from behind. Period. The backward snap of Kennedy's head occurred after he was dead and the damage done. It was a reaction to the injury.
Grassy knoll? Go there yourself and see how unlikely a place for an assassin that is. Anyone shooting from there would be completely obvious. The place is a parking lot and it was in 1963. The "acoustic" evidence, put before the House Select committee at the 11th hour that allegedly indicated a "grassy knoll" shot has been completely refuted by the National Academy of Science.
At the end of the day, there is a lone nut. A lone left wing nut. His missed once but hit twice. And changed history.
It is interesting how you try to refute my point with absolutely no source to back up your story.
Sorry, I meant to. Here are several
Single Bullet Theory
JFK online
Exponent
QUOTE(moif @ Nov 22 2005, 01:23 PM)
LH. If you are so adamant as to the facts, then why did you bother posing the questions?
For the same reason people go to the driving range. Throw a ball down and smack it 250 yards. Today is 11/22. That date is etched in my brain. But, if anyone wants to debate me on the facts, I welcome it.
QUOTE(moif @ Nov 22 2005, 01:23 PM)
What is to debate here? There is no conclusive evidence to support either theory as far as I can see. Oswald may have shot Kennedy, he may have been working along with other snipers or he may have been operating on command from some other source. Its hard to tell when he was so conveniently murdered by a man who then conveniently committed suicide.
The facts are there if you bother to look at them. When you take away the noise, the conclusion is inescapble. Oswald committed two murders that day and one attempted murder.
QUOTE(lordhelmet @ Nov 22 2005, 06:24 PM)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennedy_assassination_theories
QUOTE
1. The two official government investigations have confirmed that the security around Kennedy's motorcade had been considerably reduced from its customary levels.
2. Instead of the front of Kennedy's face being blown away by an exit wound consistent with him taking a head shot from the rear by Oswald, the back of President Kennedy's skull, on the right hand side, was blown out as if shot from the front.
3. Almost immediately after the assassination, the federal government's official position was to stop any discussion about a conspiracy to kill Kennedy.
4. Oswald denied killing the president and was immediately murdered himself after he stated he could prove the picture of him holding the alleged murder weapon had been faked by pasting his head on a photograph of the body of someone else holding the alleged murder weapon.
7. Many people have pointed to the Warren Commission's single bullet theory causing all but one of the wounds in both Kennedy and John Connally, as unlikely. While some ballistic evidence has suggested that such a bullet trajectory was possible, this particular point is a source of much contention and disagreement. The biggest problem with the single bullet theory posited by the Warren Commission and the HSCA in 1979, is at the autopsy examination, the only wound noted to Kennedy's back was below the neck of Kennedy; and was less than a finger-length deep; and the bullet angled downward at from a 45 degree angle to a 60 degree angle. Nevetheless, under the single bullet theory the bullet was supposed to have exited the front of Kennedy's throat and the inflicted multiple wounds to Connally.
8. The scenario of two shooters is supported by the eye witnesses. A large number of witnesses who were standing in the front of Kennedy heard the shots coming from the front. In contrast, those down the road to the back of Kennedy heard the shots coming from the back. Therefore, all the members of one of the two groups of witnesses, would have to have been wrong under the one shooter theory.
9. According to the House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA), the accoustical evidence preserved on tape establishes two shooters.
2. Instead of the front of Kennedy's face being blown away by an exit wound consistent with him taking a head shot from the rear by Oswald, the back of President Kennedy's skull, on the right hand side, was blown out as if shot from the front.
3. Almost immediately after the assassination, the federal government's official position was to stop any discussion about a conspiracy to kill Kennedy.
4. Oswald denied killing the president and was immediately murdered himself after he stated he could prove the picture of him holding the alleged murder weapon had been faked by pasting his head on a photograph of the body of someone else holding the alleged murder weapon.
7. Many people have pointed to the Warren Commission's single bullet theory causing all but one of the wounds in both Kennedy and John Connally, as unlikely. While some ballistic evidence has suggested that such a bullet trajectory was possible, this particular point is a source of much contention and disagreement. The biggest problem with the single bullet theory posited by the Warren Commission and the HSCA in 1979, is at the autopsy examination, the only wound noted to Kennedy's back was below the neck of Kennedy; and was less than a finger-length deep; and the bullet angled downward at from a 45 degree angle to a 60 degree angle. Nevetheless, under the single bullet theory the bullet was supposed to have exited the front of Kennedy's throat and the inflicted multiple wounds to Connally.
8. The scenario of two shooters is supported by the eye witnesses. A large number of witnesses who were standing in the front of Kennedy heard the shots coming from the front. In contrast, those down the road to the back of Kennedy heard the shots coming from the back. Therefore, all the members of one of the two groups of witnesses, would have to have been wrong under the one shooter theory.
9. According to the House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA), the accoustical evidence preserved on tape establishes two shooters.
LH could you please explain me why you neglected this evidence in your argument?
As I said before this topic is difficult, even for reknown scholars. It has proven to be, extremely difficult to form an objective and realistic reconstruction of the Kennedy assasination. You do not have the answers to this historical question, neither do I. Nobody knows for sure (except the people who took part in it).
QUOTE
Renger. 1. The two official government investigations have confirmed that the security around Kennedy's motorcade had been considerably reduced from its customary levels.
Which proves absolutely nothing.
QUOTE
2. Instead of the front of Kennedy's face being blown away by an exit wound consistent with him taking a head shot from the rear by Oswald, the back of President Kennedy's skull, on the right hand side, was blown out as if shot from the front.
Check this out.
Third bullet head shot from behind
QUOTE
3. Almost immediately after the assassination, the federal government's official position was to stop any discussion about a conspiracy to kill Kennedy.
Governments are in the business of maintaining public stability. They probably wanted a smooth presidential transition without a lot of suspicion and panic. Makes sense.
QUOTE
4. Oswald denied killing the president and was immediately murdered himself after he stated he could prove the picture of him holding the alleged murder weapon had been faked by pasting his head on a photograph of the body of someone else holding the alleged murder weapon.
I guess it makes more sense to imagine that a guy who committed a hit-and-run killing outside of public visibility would be inclined to admit he was responsible for the assassination of the president.
Ruby's demented retaliation and his reasons and the circumstances have been thoroughly reported and analyzed and don't require any conspiracy to explain.
QUOTE
7. Many people have pointed to the Warren Commission's single bullet theory causing all but one of the wounds in both Kennedy and John Connally, as unlikely. While some ballistic evidence has suggested that such a bullet trajectory was possible, this particular point is a source of much contention and disagreement. The biggest problem with the single bullet theory posited by the Warren Commission and the HSCA in 1979, is at the autopsy examination, the only wound noted to Kennedy's back was below the neck of Kennedy; and was less than a finger-length deep; and the bullet angled downward at from a 45 degree angle to a 60 degree angle. Nevetheless, under the single bullet theory the bullet was supposed to have exited the front of Kennedy's throat and the inflicted multiple wounds to Connally.
Yes the theory does have some unlikely elements even pushing aside some of the inaccurate alleged "facts" peddled by many conspiracy theorists. The only problem is there is no other theory around that is at all consistent with the available evidence. Unlikely beats impossible or think Occam's Razor. Again here is the link offered above that goes into the single bullet matter.
Defense of the second shot single bullet theory
QUOTE
8. The scenario of two shooters is supported by the eye witnesses. A large number of witnesses who were standing in the front of Kennedy heard the shots coming from the front. In contrast, those down the road to the back of Kennedy heard the shots coming from the back. Therefore, all the members of one of the two groups of witnesses, would have to have been wrong under the one shooter theory.
Funny that they all HEARD but didn't SEE. You'd think that with all the witnesses around the shooter or at least the gun would have been seen by someone. And no picture of so much as smoke coming from the grassy knoll area; no physical evidence - nothing. The fact is witnesses gave lots of contradictory accounts.
QUOTE
9. According to the House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA), the accoustical evidence preserved on tape establishes two shooters.
Subsequent accoustic experts have debunked the House Committee conclusions using the same evidence. In addition the WC establishes a pretty solid basis for its 3 shot theory.
QUOTE
Fairly comprehensive FAQ on the Kennedy assassination.
Of the approximately 200 witnesses whose statements were taken by
the WC, 88% said they heard three shots, 5% said they heard more than
three. Only 2% reported hearing shots coming from more than one lo-
cation, but the issue is complicated somewhat by the echoes created by
the buildings surrounding the Plaza. Three shells were discovered on
the sixth floor "sniper's lair" to bolster the theory that three shots were
fired.
Of the approximately 200 witnesses whose statements were taken by
the WC, 88% said they heard three shots, 5% said they heard more than
three. Only 2% reported hearing shots coming from more than one lo-
cation, but the issue is complicated somewhat by the echoes created by
the buildings surrounding the Plaza. Three shells were discovered on
the sixth floor "sniper's lair" to bolster the theory that three shots were
fired.
QUOTE
As I said before this topic is difficult, even for reknown scholars. It has proven to be, extremely difficult to form an objective and realistic reconstruction of the Kennedy assasination.
It's not really that difficult if you stay close to the hard evidence. And commonsense should tell one that a large scale secret conspiracy would have been revealed by now, given what we know about people. Or at least we would have been presented with a plausible alternative narrative to the one offered by the Warren Commission based on the known evidence. No on both counts. Slam dunk!
QUOTE(lordhelmet @ Nov 22 2005, 06:21 AM)
1. Did Oswald kill JFK and did he act alone?
2. Was there a conspiracy. If so, who killed JFK?[/b]
2. Was there a conspiracy. If so, who killed JFK?[/b]
Granted, the time of which in question comes well before my time, but we shall assume my own personal research and history lessons have not lied to me...
1.) Oswald did indeed assassinate President Kennedy. Whether or not he seriously did act alone is subject to a vast amount of controversy, the likes of which I cannot offer a concrete answer, but shall instead provide evidence leaning to either view point:
Oswald was acting alone:
QUOTE
They (Rahn and Larry Strudivan) base their results on a review of ballistic and chemical analysis of the recovered bullet fragments. Furthermore, they prove statistically that the odds of additional successful gunmen are 2 to 3 percent at best and one in a million at worst. Results of their research were published in this month’s issue of the Journal of Radioanalytical and Nuclear Chemistry.
According to the Warren Report, three shots were fired on that fateful day in November. Since Oswald’s bolt-action rifle required 2.3 seconds per shot and the shots were fired within 4.8 seconds, conspiracy theorists, assuming that Kennedy was hit by the first shot, claim that it would have been difficult, if not impossible, for Oswald to act alone.
Rahn and Sturdivan show that a three-hit scenario is ruled out by the neutron activation data. They further argue that Oswald’s first shot most likely missed the president’s car completely. This provides at least 4.8 seconds between the two shots that hit, making it an easy feat.
<snip>
The first large bullet fragment, found on the stretcher, had a deformed, but complete shell with jacket markings on the jacket. It was a perfect match to Oswald’s rifle. The second large fragment, which had bounced onto the front seat contained lead, and some jacketing with some markings and brain tissue. It, too, was a perfect match to Oswald’s rifle.
According to the Warren Report, three shots were fired on that fateful day in November. Since Oswald’s bolt-action rifle required 2.3 seconds per shot and the shots were fired within 4.8 seconds, conspiracy theorists, assuming that Kennedy was hit by the first shot, claim that it would have been difficult, if not impossible, for Oswald to act alone.
Rahn and Sturdivan show that a three-hit scenario is ruled out by the neutron activation data. They further argue that Oswald’s first shot most likely missed the president’s car completely. This provides at least 4.8 seconds between the two shots that hit, making it an easy feat.
<snip>
The first large bullet fragment, found on the stretcher, had a deformed, but complete shell with jacket markings on the jacket. It was a perfect match to Oswald’s rifle. The second large fragment, which had bounced onto the front seat contained lead, and some jacketing with some markings and brain tissue. It, too, was a perfect match to Oswald’s rifle.
Source 1
Oswald was part of a conspiracy:
QUOTE
A total of 7 impulses were caught on the tape, but citing budgetary constraints, the HSCA only had 4 of them analysed. The analysis concluded that all 4 were gunshots, two of them occuring within 1/2 a second of each other, too close to be fired by one man. Comparisons of the echoes with test shots fired in Deakel Plaza confirmed that at least one of the recorded shots had indeed been fired from the Grassy Knoll. Needless to say, the existance of 5, rather than just 3, gunshots destroyed the Oswald as lone gunman cover-up.
<snip>
New research has shown that the report that dismissed the audio recording of the gunshots was itself deeply flawed, and ignored evidence that confirmed both the locatrion and time of the recording as being in Dealey Plaza at the time of the JFK assassination. This means that the original House Select Committee on Assassinations conclusion is the correct one. There were at least four gunshots in Dealey Plaza, two of them within 1/2 second of each other, and at least one of the shots came from the Grassy Knoll.
<snip>
New research has shown that the report that dismissed the audio recording of the gunshots was itself deeply flawed, and ignored evidence that confirmed both the locatrion and time of the recording as being in Dealey Plaza at the time of the JFK assassination. This means that the original House Select Committee on Assassinations conclusion is the correct one. There were at least four gunshots in Dealey Plaza, two of them within 1/2 second of each other, and at least one of the shots came from the Grassy Knoll.
Source 2
2.) Given my inability to time travel and find out or have access to secret government documents: I am unable to provide a real answer to the question. Based on information I am given, I have to respect modern science enough to dismiss the conspiracy theory and make way for the future, after all, how can we expect to prevent a future assassination if we are still investigating an old one. The fact of the matter is, that is if science has proven that it were in fact possible for the gunshots to have been fired within the precise intervals caught on recordings and visual documentation of the assassination itself, there is little alternative but to side with modern-day science... or come up with a conspiracy theory that the government used science to invent some wack-job theory about that, too.
This is a simplified version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.