This is breaking news if you don’t watch Fox News! There is a war on Christmas! Retailers are, for the most part welcoming customers with Happy Holidays and refuse to use the term Merry Christmas. I find this act of PC particularly amusing considering almost all retail business sets their profits date as “Black Friday” the day after Thanksgiving, the traditional Christmas shopping season open season.

According to Fox News the retailers from Wal Mart to Kmart think it is a PC tactic to not offend customers of other faiths. Well, it appears a boycott will be called on retailers that refuse to acknowledge the basis for their books black ink before the holiday occurs.

The House of Representatives have even gotten in on the action renaming the national Christmas Tree back to the Christmas from its recent years PC change to Holiday Tree.

I found this amusing so I contacted Wal Mart and told them of the store I shopped and asked they instruct their associates that I would like to be welcomed with a Merry Christmas greeting since they will be cashing in on the holiday and America is predominately a Christian nation. They wrote back and said they want to serve all customers and not offend any and will greet according to the season.

I wrote back and told them I disagree and will ask my friends to superglue nativity scenes and Merry Christmas banners on each of their cash registers. I asked if they would prosecute me and force their Christian employees to scrape the offensive acknowledgement of the holiday from the registers. I told them I would demand a jury trial and the community I live in is 99% Christian. They didn’t answer.

So why the title for this topic? Now, keep in mind I live in Puerto Rico and Spanish is the first language, every time I go to Wal Mart I ask each employee with the blue sign on their back asking “can I help you” the same question, “can you say Merry Christmas?”

Question for debate:

Do you think retailers should acknowledge the traditional holiday by placing nativity scenes and banners of Merry Christmas wishes along with wishes towards other religion traditions?

Would you join in on a boycott of stores that refuse to acknowledge the basis of the season in America?

A private business has the right to do whatever it wants about the holiday season. (Or, if you insist, the Christmas season.) Consumers have the right to boycott any business for any reason. So far, so good.

What you are suggesting -- using superglue to place religious images on cash registers -- is an act of vandalism. You should expect to face legal consequences for it.

How is your suggested action any different from someone like me using superglue to place a sign that says "I hate Christmas" on a cash register? The only difference is that my opinion is in the minority. Does this somehow make my action bad, and your action good?

How is your proposed action any different from a Christmas-lover using superglue to place religious images on my house without my permission? Should I be forced to cover my home with Christmas images just because most people like Christmas?

If you agree that this is not an acceptable action, why is acceptable for you to force a private business to do the same thing?

Can we be honest here? Saying that there is not enough Christmas in the United States is like saying that there is not enough sand in the Sahara. America is drowning in Christmas. The fact that a private business chooses to go the "Happy Holidays" route is, frankly, none of your business, as long as you are not forced to shop there.

In direct answer to the questions for debate:

1. Obviously, retailers should be free to do whatever they like about Christmas.

2. As you can tell, I have no reason to join in such a boycott. If you want to, that's fine. Just be sure that you do not step over the line from a perfectly legal boycott into vandalism.

If I could find a store that chooses to avoid all holiday stuff, I would shop there gladly.

Saying there is a "War on Christmas" is outrageous hyperbole.
Yes, sometimes the government and large corporations won't go out of their way to validate your religious beliefs. Get over it. Not everyone celebrates Christmas and it's not the end of the world when Christmas isn't shoved down their throat. There are worse things in the world than not having complete homogeneity in people's holiday customs.

Do you think retailers should acknowledge the traditional holiday by placing nativity scenes and banners of Merry Christmas wishes along with wishes towards other religion traditions? If they want to they can, but I wouldn't shop in any store with a nativity scene inside.

Would you join in on a boycott of stores that refuse to acknowledge the basis of the season in America? No. Maybe we should remember that whatever religion you are, the real basis of any season is being nice to each other.

To end, if there is a "War on Christmas" it isn't coming from those who don't celebrate Christmas. It's coming from people who do celebrate Christmas and have turned it into a decadent buying and over-eating spree.

First of all, leave it to FoxNews to claim this is a "war on Christmas", but I guess they have to spin people up about something since the side they cheerlead for isn't doing so hot these days

Do you think retailers should acknowledge the traditional holiday by placing nativity scenes and banners of Merry Christmas wishes along with wishes towards other religion traditions?

The traditional holiday huh? You of course mean the traditional Christian holiday since there are several other holidays during this time period too. There is a small religion you might have heard of called Judiasm which celebrates Hanukkah. We also have Kwanzaa and maybe even some holidays I don't know about.

So given that we live in a multi-cultural, multi-religious society why would a business want to alienate a portion of their customers just because Pat Robertson thinks it is the right thing to do?

Businesses could care less about the religious significance of Christmas, that only happens in Norman Rockwell-land. Businesses do very much care about making money and in America the holiday season from Thanksgiving to shortly after New Years is when many businesses make the most money during the year. It is a consumer holiday much more than it is a religious holiday and it has been that way for a long time.

As original as you think you might be in ranting about this people have been saying this for a long time. Check out this quote:



Guess who said that...? Henry Ford... in 1921.

Oh and let's not forget to cover a little Christmas history. First it wasn't celebrated.


Then it was:


Then pagan customs were incorporated:


Then it wasn't celebrated again:


Then it was again:


So as you can see Ol Sarge Christmas isn't even that Christian afterall. Almost every tradition we observe these days comes from pagan tradition or the winter solstice. The church itself has gone for long periods of history without even acknowledging it.

Oh and I really wish the religious right would make up their minds. In the 1970's the fact that companies were commercializing a christian holiday was the outrage of the day. Now they are saying that companies are not recognizing that same holiday (more commercialized than ever).

Would you join in on a boycott of stores that refuse to acknowledge the basis of the season in America?

No.

Wow Ol Sarge, you're really making Christians out to be a gaggle of lawless, bullying hooligans. I wonder what your Lord and Savior would have to say about that? Or maybe the actual teachings of Christ don't matter as much as the ego trip derived from reminding others that YOUR belief system is the majority view.

Not very "Christlike", from what I can tell.



It's sad that anyone would think it's "news" at all, much less a breaking story worthy of an exclamition point. This isn't news, it's somebody's opinion given journalistc trappings and propagated in the hope that uncritical readers will "take up the fight". And apparently it has worked, at least in one case.



You're upset because retailers are eschewing rudeness? Or didn't you realize that it's rude to assume that everyone belongs to the same religion? And that it's bad business for stores to be rude to their customers? Maybe WalMart wants to be as welcoming to the Muslim couple who came to buy a snow shovel as it is to the Christian dad who came to buy his daughter a bike for Christmas.

Would it be fun for you if almost all the stores you shopped at conspicuously assumed that you are a Hindu?



Oh wait you have invoked the magic word ("PC"), which means you get to throw concepts of politeness, consideration, or even good customer relations out the discussion. I forgot how the minute somebody calls something PC, we're all supposed to (again, uncritically) act like we don't care whether we use basic courtesy. Or whether a private company tries to be somewhat welcoming to all of its customers rather than especially welcoming to some of its customers.



How dare they?



Way to spread the Gospel, Ol Sarge. Putting harried hourly employees on the spot over policies they didn't create is a great way demonstrate devotion to Christ's teachings. Oh but I forgot, this isn't about Jesus' teachings, it's about punishing people for not giving your religous sensibilites priority over everyone else's.



Let them if they want, but not on my account.



I wouldn't have anything to boycott because don't see anyone refusing to acknowledge the "basis of the season". I'm sure if you asked, most retailers would readily tell you that the tradition of buying and giving gifts for Christmas contributes significantly to their sales around this time of year. Why would they refuse to ackowledge this?

What I see stores refusing to do is cater to to the unreasonable demands of a whiny subset of the majority religion who have an overgrown sense of 1) entitlement and 2) outrage.

Hey thanks for confirming my suspicions.

I could care less about stores acknowledging Christmas or the birth of Jesus. But, at the same time I was amused by the uproar about it and that is why I wrote Wal Mart and then wrote back to see their reaction to the possibility of a “militant Christian” putting them on the spot... I did ask several Wal Mart employees, “can you say Christmas?” and then smile and ask if they could say it if the manager was there when they returned the smile and gladly said Merry Christmas.

I think most devout Christians dislike the capitalization of Christmas and could care less if stores display or say Merry Christmas or not... My mother was very religious and a Christian but despised the capitalization on the birth of Christ.

I particularly dislike this time of year because it always upsets the budget. I keep my credit cards paid off monthly and save and because of the capitalism, my sons birthday in the same period and the extra celebration here in Jan. of Three Kings Day where gifts are also exchanged it messes up my budget. Likewise, Mother’s Day sucks here because every woman who has squeezed out a baby that you are associated with socially, professionally or through relationship expects a gift. It took quite a bit of hard feelings and several years to stop my wives poor relatives from coming by with gifts at Christmas and Mothers Day but it worked. I can’t say the same for my Children though...

Regardless, I think the uproar on Christmas is to stir up the Christians against the ACLU and liberals... I think if liberal politician supports diversity sensitivity conservatives think of all of those workers in stores and restaurants that can’t speak English and smell funny. Again, I think it is more about herding the cats into anti ACLU thinking of Christmas on government property like schools, government grounds and money.

I think when in America expect Christianity, when in Korea or Japan expect Buddhism. Why the big deal, it is simply amusing to me that anyone could take a strong position on tradition or the change of tradition. Wal Mart's cash registers are safe from this militant pretend Christian.

Do you think retailers should acknowledge the traditional holiday by placing nativity scenes and banners of Merry Christmas wishes along with wishes towards other religion traditions?
I think that retailers should do what they want. As for me being a non-Christian type I have to put up with Christmas music and decorations where ever I go including my work for 2 months a year. Do I like that? Heck no I turn off my radio and put a CD on when I hear the first of hundreds of Christmas songs that blanket the stations this time of year. Do I do anything about this constant bombardment with of Christmas? Besides staying away from all stores during November, December and putting on a CD no. Why, because it is anothers' religious holiday and I have too much respect for others to do anything else.

I will say though when I lived in Israel it was nice one January to realize that I had not seen a single Christmas decoration, heard any Christmas music or even had somebody say "Merry Christmas". That was one of the nicest winters I ever had.

Would you join in on a boycott of stores that refuse to acknowledge the basis of the season in America?
I respond to people that wish me a 'Merry Christmas" one of two ways. Either I wish them a "Happy Hannuakka" or say something along the lines of "I certain hope not!". Just to remind them that though they are a majority not everybody is a Christian.

So no I would not support any such boycott and think that anybody that damages somebody else's property belongs in jail.

Why does everything need to be a vast conspircay by the right or the left? Call me crazy, but the choice of Happy holidays by busineses follows their one and ONLY motivation, to try and alienate as few people as possible so they will come and spend more money.

As to artifically creating an uproar, I suspect it is a couple tired far-right pundits who only get into the spotlight when the rant about the satanic and perfidious evils of the left.



Well, in my mind, when in America expect secularism, which is by far the order of the day.

(Oh, and when in Korea expect secularism, then Christianity, which is the most popular religion in this very secular state)(Oh, and when in Japan expect Shintoism) (Not that any of that actually matters...)

Tis the season to be trivial.

There is no war on the concept of Christmas. There are simply those who see Christmas as either a religious season or a retail opportunity. It's clear that there are those on both sides of the debate who feel passionately theirs is the superior moral position.

America may be a predominantly Christian nation, but as there is no state-sponsored and supported religion, most Americans are not moved by the false call to arms by ideological zealots. By the way, a link to the Fox News story might have been a way to lend some credence to these wildly unsubstantiated claims.

The best way to demonstrate outrage at a store that uses the secular phrase, "Happy Holidays" over "Merry Christmas" would be to take your dollars elsewhere to a store that shares your sentiments, Ol Sarge. It would be an act of vandalism for you to superglue nativity scenes and Merry Christmas banners in a Wal-Mart, K-Mart, Target or any other big box retailer establishment. Should you attempt to do so I would certainly hope store security would escort you off of the premises promptly and press charges against you should you persist in such a course of actions.

Your belief system is yours and yours alone. You have no right to push it upon others who may not share it.

The answers to the debate question are:

1. It is entirely up to the management of a store how or if they observe the Christmas season. Retailers are not in business to reinforce anyone's religious beliefs.

2. No way. I am extremely selective regarding to whom and what type of boycotts I lend support to. This is a purely ideological one driven by right-wing religious orthodoxy and as such holds no appeal to me.

Or to put it another way...

Bah, humbug.

This is not breaking news and the sky isn’t falling. We had a similar discussion last year. Those uppity storeowners think they can go about making a buck without the Right’s moral stamp of approval by choosing the more inclusive “Happy Holiday” theme over “Merry Christmas.” How dare they take the initiative without consulting the Right first? The Right is the champion of privatization and property rights after all, and these storeowners owe the very freedom to make sound business decisions to them.

Do you think retailers should acknowledge the traditional holiday by placing nativity scenes and banners of Merry Christmas wishes along with wishes towards other religion traditions?
Retailers can express their acknowledgement of the shopping season however they see fit, or not acknowledge it at all.

Would you join in on a boycott of stores that refuse to acknowledge the basis of the season in America?
Hell no. I don’t need a store to remind me what I should be celebrating this time of year. The spirit of Christmas, Hanukah, Kwanza, etc., is kept alive through the actions of believers, not thanks to a period economic activity.

Well I think the disdain is towards the ACLU and secularism.


I think you are incorrect about America being secular, please check the link http://wikitravel.org/en/United_States_of_America and view information on the sidebar under the American flag.

In Korea there is a Christian influence but traditionally the nation remains a majority of Buddhist. I lived there for almost ten years in installments and have visited most of the places noted in the links:

http://media.graniteschools.org/Curriculum/korea/
http://www.asiatour.com/korea/e-01land/ek-lan18.htm Actually we are both right with the exception of your stated secular view of Koreans.

Japan has two major religions. They have been co-existing for several centuries and have even complemented each other to a certain degree. Most Japanese consider themselves Buddhist, Shintoist or both. "e2056.html" and "e2055.html" are Japan's
http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e629.html

Ol Sarge, you just about gave this chubby old maid a heart attack with this post. LOL For a minute I thought you were serious. I remembered admiring a point you made once in a thread about education, and then just now I looked at your "very conservative" description and thought "Oh, gosh, is he THAT conservative?" LMAO

Frankly, as a Christian who celebrates Christmas as a religious holiday -- while enjoying the partying and music aspect of it thoroughly -- I am far more offended by the commercialization of Christmas, the gimme-gimme focus on presents, than I would be about not being wished "Merry Christmas" by some store clerk I barely know. In a different thread, someone made the excellent point that we should not allow Fox News to give people who hate their fellow man even more reason to do so. I think wrangling over semantics at this time of year is silly and pointless.

If you celebrate Christmas, you should know that at its heart is "goodwill to all." Wishing people a happy holiday by naming a specific celebration is not a command that they convert to the corresponding religious tradition. It's really no more of a big deal than "Good afternoon" or "How do you do," except that people have MADE it one.

My father is an ordained minister and my mother, may she rest in peace, was an agnostic -- and a talented musician who played the church organ and directed its choir for more than 40 years. They were married 58 years to the day -- she died on their wedding anniversary. People CAN get past religious differences. So, the word from here is, Merry Christmas, Happy Chanukah, Blessed Yule, Joyous Kwanzaa, Season's Greetings, and Happy Holidays. Or, if you prefer, bah humbug. LOL

I think its possible to discuss this without bringing in the ACLU which has absolutely nothing to do with it. The ACLU also isn't secular, they protect the constitution and they take cases where people's religion is being infringed upon and where the government is trying to impose religion on people.

I noticed that you haven't commented on any of the points above which prove the traditions you hold dear aren't Christian to begin with. Gift giving is from pagan times and therefore saying "Happy Holidays" is appropriate.

Amen to that. Christians and non-Christians are free to make a fuss about the commercial-centered Christmas season if they like. We are still a predominantly Christian nation today but our religious identity is not as homogenous as it used to be. At the onset of the commercialization of Christmas businesses shrewdly perceived an opportunity to make money on a religious observance. As more immigrants means our religious identity changes businesses will accommodate the differences for the same result, an opportunity to make money.

Businesses are not motivated to maintain cultural identity dominance; people upset that businesses make decisions based on the chance to turn a profit are.

Again, nighttimer, we agree.

I believe that as Americans, our ability to whine and complain far outweighs our personal resolve when it comes to spending our hard-earned money. If a discount chain doesn't share our religious sentiment, they're awful, of course unless they have a heck of a deal on digital cameras.

Being a particularly religious person, I find it aggravating that the season designed to celebrate a specifically Christian holiday has evolved into something very different. However, this is the United States of America and our neighbors, retailers, and whomever can choose to say what they'd like.

This doesn't mean that we have to associate ourselves with them, patronize their stores, or realize their needs to embrace political correctness. If this is a problem for someone, the best message one can possibly send is to avoid those people and/or organizations whom neglect to keep Christmas as the center of this season.

Living in a large city, but being from a far smaller one, I can tell you that in places like Shreveport, LA., you still hear "Merry Christmas" while you might hear "Happy Holidays" in Dallas.

I did some shopping in Shreveport on the day after Thanksgiving, at Target of all places... and was pleased to hear "Have a Merry Christmas" with it's accompanying southern accent. I have since been to multiple retailers (not on the list) here in Dallas, only to hear "Have a Happy Holiday". At least they acknowledge that I'm there and act like they appreciate the sale... some places you don't even get that nowadays!

What I will say is that if I were of another denomination, or not religious at all, I might not want to spend my whole month of December avoiding stores in order to circumvent the inevitable "Merry Christmas". What if I was Jewish and simply needed a new pair of slacks? My company has an office on Wall st in NYC (as I'm sure I've mentioned entirely too many times) that is predominantly Jewish. Surely during the month there will be some of our partners in crime here in Dallas, and I wouldn't want them to feel out of place... even though I have to say that it irks me that I cannot find anyone that would be offended by bringing back the term "Christmas Party" and now it's "Holiday Party"... whatever. I'll live.

I revel in the Christmas season, as it reminds me of some of the reasons I love America. We see Toys for Tots banners in all of the Starbucks, Angel Trees at work, fundraising at church, and get time to spend with those we love. You see kids in their pre-teens dropping allowances into buckets at school, teen agers volunteering, and people whom may not be "rich" by any means giving what they can for someone with less. Being a religious person, I consider what Jesus would've said in this very time. I can imagine disappointment in the bickering and argumentative nature that some have begun to adopt. Take the 15 minutes that you might've spent arguing with the manager at (insert store name) and call someone that you haven't spoken to recently. Maybe don't look away from that "homeless-looking" person downtown, maybe even stop to say hello. It might mean something to them. Skip lunch a few days and toss that money into the salvation army bucket outside the mall.

I know Christmas time shouldn't be the only time for our hearts to be in the right place, but it's a good reminder for everyone (not just Christians) that regardless of our differences, everyone has similar needs... and who knows how many people are a paycheck or two from the highway. People get laid off, people get sick, etc. It happens. I go home every night to kiss my beloved and the two dogs, go to sleep in a warm bed every night w/ food in my belly... why be upset about some stupid Target mess?

If it bothers you that Target won't put "Christ in Christmas"... don't go there. We all obviously have the internet and the ability to shop online... who wants to fight those lines anyway?

EDITED TO ADD: Go chop down a tree with your kids. The tree farmers need the money, and the kids need to spend time w/ their folks without being concerned about whether they'll get the XBOX360 or not!!

Do you think retailers should acknowledge the traditional holiday by placing nativity scenes and banners of Merry Christmas wishes along with wishes towards other religion traditions?

Yes, but I don't believe they should be forced into it by our government. For people who feel strong enough about this issue, please by all means boycott those establishments.

Would you join in on a boycott of stores that refuse to acknowledge the basis of the season in America?

I am a faithful church going Christian, but I personally don't care enough about this issue to boycott. However, I do recognize and sympathize with the fact that Christmas, and Hanukkah for that matter, have been hijacked by consumerism. Having retailers recognize Christmas would help to remind people of the purpose of the holidays. Not all retailers have boycotted the source of the holidays, my local grocery store has the words 'Merry Christmas' and 'Happy Hanukkah' on their bags.

aevans176 I wrote that I avoid the stores in November and December, but it is not for the reason noted.

I can and do respect the Christian holidays. I am bombarded with Christmas for those two months that is normal, but the reason I stay away from the stores is the people. I get headaches in large, noisy crowds. If that didn't occur then I would have no trouble in venturing forth to the stores. Has nothing to do with the holiday or a few 'Merry Christmas' statements.

Did you look down your nose with Santa glasses hanging low on your nose as you typed... Ol Sarge above?

Not tring to be sensitive or condecending but to get in touch with the store that I feel shares my sentiments you should first read my post #6 at 10:00 AM and smile. Bah Humbug Feliz Navidad y Prospero Ano Nuevo!

I hate to break it to ya in such a jovial and uplifting thread.. but umm... the majority of Americans are Christians.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_prac2.htm
http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html#religions

There are a couple of sources, both showing way better than 3/4 of the population as identifying themselves w/ Christianity...

America, as much as people would like to "brand" it, is largely not a secular society.

And assuming your stats are correct why would a business want to potentially alienate 25% of their customers aevans? Businesses could care less about Christianity or whether Christmas is supposed to be celebrating the birth of Christ. They are in this to make money by encouraging you to get in their stores and spend lots of money on gifts for your friends and family (a pagan tradition by the way a long with having a christmas tree and kissing under misletoe.)

The country may be 75% Christian but there is only a very very small majority that has a significant problem with people not using the word "Christmas" which is why boycotts like this are totally ineffective. During almost every Christmas in recent memory some religious group advocates boycotting stores, it isn't new. Fox News must just be tired of being the "all Natalee all the time" station so they've decided to cover this.


We are by definition a secular society aevans, meaning the government does not endorse religion or follow religious laws. We don't take it quite as far as a country like France, but we are most certainly secular.

I agree with the other members who stated that a private business should handle this matter however they see fit. Personally, wishing someon happy holidays as opposed to a merry christmas is a trite difference. I really don't see one being more secular than the other, but perhaps that is just me.

You posted this on Nov.30th, but O'Reilly stirred the pot earlier on the 28th. Given his angle of attack on his show, I'd say that he only brought up this "outrage" in order to take an aggressive swipe at the likes of George Soros and the ACLU.


Media Matters

Other than O'Reilly's "outrage," I fail to see a groundswell of support for this. Obviously, O'Reilly is just doing this for ratings, as well as to just blow some more hot air at people whom he doesn't agree with.



Actually, I increase my spending at places and on goods that others boycott. Don't like the French? Well, I guess I need new Michelin tires on my car and some of that fine drinking water. Don't like Wal-Mart?, I guess I'll have to put another $100.00 on the 'ol credit card. It's your right not to buy, but I'll try and make up for what you don't spend.

This is one of those instances where I part company with some of my liberal friends--why not call the Christmas holiday Christmas?

I remember the Sunday School lesson on the Gospel account of Jesus knocking over the tables of the merchandisers who sold doves and sheep for sacrifices in the Jewish temple courtyard. He said, "My house shall be called a house of prayer, but you have made it into a den of thieves!"

But neither do Wal-Mart or Target claim that they are temples or houses of prayer.

So while I do not shop at Wal-Mart because of their shoddy ways with their employees and their union-busting tactics, I do not boycott them because they instruct their employees so say their euphemistic "Happy Holidays" or whatever.

Do you think retailers should acknowledge the traditional holiday by placing nativity scenes and banners of Merry Christmas wishes along with wishes towards other religion traditions?

I think that it would be nice for them to do that; however, the reason they have any Christmas anything is to make money. Making money, although many Christians do it, is not a commandment found in the Bible (although making use of what you have is).

Would you join in on a boycott of stores that refuse to acknowledge the basis of the season in America?

Probably not. If I do not like a store's philosophy and practices, it is based on what they are doing the rest of the year. Christmas is not Frosty the Snowman or Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer, yet they are considered Christmas songs. The only way to fight the multiple incursions of secularism in this holy celebration is on an individual, introspective level. Attendance at church on Christmas Eve and singing carols together are two ways to do this. Celebrating Advent with the candles at the dinner table is another way. And to sound trite, just remembering whose birthday we are supposed to be celebrating helps.

But after all of that, you can be sure that the first words your schoolchild will hear the day after Christmas vacation is, "What didja get?"

Merry Christmas to whoever celebrates it!

And the UK is 71% Christian. It it a Christian society? France is 83% Christian. Is it a Christian society?

The US is a secular society regardless of how much a small minority of the far-right is trying to change it. Its institutions, government, policies and laws are secular, and always have been. It was designed with specific safeguards to prevent religious power.

I agree entirely that if asked, the majority (76%) of Americans would self-identify as Christians. Mind you, in a recent Gallup poll, when Americans how religious they were, only 37% of the population identified itself as very or quite religious. This exposes the problem with these surveys, that many people identify themselves as Christian, but in fact never attend church and do not lead what would typically be called a 'Christian' lifestyle.

The majority of Americans DO silf identify as Christians, and the US is a secular society.

I guess Fox News needs to get its you-know-what together before it starts ranting about the "war on Christmas" (PUHleeze). Check out the screen shot of the (butt-ugly) O'Reilly "holiday" ornaments at Fox's site. This is before they realized they'd stepped right in it and hastily changed the listing.



Joke's on you, Billie boy.

Do you think retailers should acknowledge the traditional holiday by placing nativity scenes and banners of Merry Christmas wishes along with wishes towards other religion traditions?

No, because Christmas is a borrowed holiday from pagan times. Christ was not born in December.

Christ Born before December

Retailers already acknowledge the ancient celebration of light for the winter solstice, which occurs on the 22nd this year. They decorate with bright colors, put up the trees and have elves running around promising gifts. I don't think it's up to them to continue an historical error, made on purpose to help convert pagans.

Would you join in on a boycott of stores that refuse to acknowledge the basis of the season in America?

Of course not. But I don't pay that much attention to the winter solstice anyway. I think it is pretty disgusting how people get fooled into overspending this time of year, but then this also happens to be a major part of the economy.

On the other hand, if Christians band together (highly unlikely) for a common goal (force religious myth into the winter celebration of light), then I imagine boycotts might work. But then the economy would go south, so merry crashmas.

Hey! That'd be a good Christmas story plot (scribble scribble).

We've got Christmas cacti blooming, so those are our naturally decorated inside greenery. The ponderosa pine grow all around us like weeds, the sky is full of stars when clear and the neighborhood puts up lots of extra lights, which we enjoy. Add some seasonal foods and drinks, and there you go. Nothing really to boycott. We buy stuff for each other all year round, which is the way it's supposed to be I do believe.

Christmas is for kids. They have the most fun with it, up until the Santa myth gets unveiled. Religion has nothing to do with it, other than the belief in myth. I like the spirit of giving to others less fortunate, and that should also be a year-round thing.

My suggestion to Christians is to dump Christmas. Let it go secular and instead concentrate on Easter. The spring equinox is a more appropriate time to celebrate birth, or rebirth as the case may be. Shoot, do them both! That'd be fun, but get rid of the rabbits and eggs. Why not chocolate incense and myrrh, camels, lambs and wise old guys? That'd be for the birth, maybe the first part of April. Then do Easter Sunday to celebrate the death and ascension. Or maybe that might come first on some years. It is a little confusing.

Meanwhile, there's no church doctrine that says you can't celebrate winter solstice, just as long as you don't do sacrifices to, of or thereby beasts, foodstuffs or relatives.

Voila! Religious contradictions resolved.

One interesting twisted thought I had on this issue: if non-Christians are celebrating Christmas, why would they be offended to hear someone utter the words, "Merry Christmas!"? And how many non-Christians are actually celebrating Christmas? And why? It would be interesting to see the statistics on it. I would hypothesize that the percentage of people not celebrating Christmas to be in the single digits.

Does it really matter? Can you name one business out there that wants to offend between 1 and 10% of their customers (assuming it is that low)? Of course you can't.

The thing you don't seem to understand is that from a business perspective this is a commercial holiday and provides a large percentage of their yearly revenue. They don't care if you are celebrating Christmas, Hanukkah, Kwanzaa, winter solstice or if you just happen to be taking advantage of the sales. From their perspective it makes sense to be as inclusive as possible thus the "Happy Holidays" greeting. You seem to be laboring under the impression that business exists to serve the Christian religion, it doesn't.

Do you think retailers should acknowledge the traditional holiday by placing nativity scenes and banners of Merry Christmas wishes along with wishes towards other religion traditions?

Well, as has been pointed out by several, the "traditional" holiday has nothing to do with Christ. Frankly, I'm all for taking the "Christ" out of "Solstice". But, then, even as a child, I didn't much care for Christmas. I was raised as a Christian and, unlike most of my peers, rather took the teachings to heart. I remember, as a kid, being trotted out in front of visiting relatives to tell them what I wanted for Christmas - usually something like "peace on earth" or "to help poor people". Everyone thought that was so cute. But asking for toys somehow seemed... disrespectful or something. I figured those could be bought with my allowance - or requested for my birthday. For "Jesus' birthday", I thought we should be giving something to Him - or to others in His name. (Yeah, even as a child, I was this annoying.) I also remember finding all of the commercial trappings - Christmas decorations and lights and Muzak carols and all the rest of it - somewhat crass and disrespectful. I did like my mother's sandtarts, though - and wished she'd make them more than once a year.

As I grew older, of course, and learned that Christmas was a totally ersatz holiday to begin with, that it had nothing to do with the actual nativity and was specifically designed by the early church to coopt the celebrations of other religions, I became even more disillusioned. Frankly, I think Christians should focus more on Easter as their central holiday - and I don't mean bunnies and eggs. But, then, that would mean actually approaching their religion like adults, so I don't think we should have any great expectations there.

Personally, I don't really care whether Wal-mart greeters say :"Merry Christmas", "Happy Holidays" or "Go to Hell". I do my best to ignore the "holiday season" altogether and retailers can do whatever they want to pull in more bucks in honor of Christ.

Would you join in on a boycott of stores that refuse to acknowledge the basis of the season in America?

But that would be practically every store in the country! Almost all of them pander to the phony Christian "Holy Day" that coopted Solstice celebrations - whatever they call it. Sorry, the whole Christmas/Holiday controversy is just not that important to me. Don't we have a country to run into the ground?

Whoa, slow down. I didn't say any of those things. What I'm getting at is that the percentage of people offended by Christmas is probably smaller than the percentage of people offended by its secularist take over. If true, shouldn't a business take note of that?

Once again, it doesn't matter. Business is not the same as politics, it isn't about the minority and the majority. Business is about making everyone happy, or as reasonably close as you can come to doing so. You don't want any customer to walk away.

And this "secularist take over" of Christmas isn't breaking news regardless of what Fox News, Bill O'Reilly and Pat Robertson would like you to believe. Things have been like this for a long time because from a business sense Christmas doesn't have anything to do with Christ. I cited a quote from Henry Ford as far back as 1921 talking about it and there was a big to do about all of this in the 70's.

1.) What I think and what reality is are two different things.

2.) Probably not. It is the right of a corporation to identify the solstice holiday as any they wish-- personally I would like to see one African-American owned retailor try to say "Happy Kwanza." I do not like calling a Christmas tree a "Holiday" tree, once a duck, always a duck. But it should be the yea or neigh of any store or person what they choose to identify the holiday as. I personally do not know anyone who is offended by saying "Merry Christmas" or hearing it, my many Muslim friends in fact enjoy Christmas and love hearing/learning about it. I would never fault a company for not saying it but I can understand how and why they do not, personally, I'll never stop saying "Have a Merry Christmas." If we're entitled to freedom of speech and the freedom of expression, I will not pretend to say or do something if I can get away with my personal beliefs... but that is what they are, personal. Companies must take their own position on what base they wish to attract with marketing, be it Christians or not.

Do you think retailers should acknowledge the traditional holiday by placing
nativity scenes and banners of Merry Christmas wishes along with wishes
towards other religion traditions?

They could do that, but I don't think it would improve business. In fact,
it would probably be an eye sore for some non-Christians. Personally,
I think the nativity scene, when it's displayed tastefully, is quite
beautiful. But the holiday has all but lost it's true meaning.
The fact that it's been comercialized beyond return proves that it is holiday
that is based around consumerism, not religion.

Would you join in on a boycott of stores that refuse to acknowledge the
basis of the season in America?

No. The holiday has become something very far from what the original intent
of Christmas once was. And, quite honestly, the spirit of Christmas exists
in the hearts of people, not in the display window at Macy's.

As I mentioned earlier I think the outrage from the Christian right is directed to the ACLU and not retailers. Check out this link I found on a conservative web page that directs the dislike to the ACLU: http://www.wmca.com/weblogs/kmc/date12012005.aspx Some in the religious right reflect on the ACLU’s desire to remove the word God or Christ from the public arena is a method to promote secularism and punishment of Christians as happened in France during the French Revolution shortly after the birth of our nation.

During the French Revolution the Church (Catholic church) was denounced and an event of crystal nights involving the breaking of the church’s stained glass resulted in the Republic Calendar 1793-1805 the French calendar read year 1 through year 12. During this period the secular’s abused the clergy, and developed the criminalization of being Christian and desecrated the church, the period was known as the Reign of Terror instituted by Jacobin Rule.

I looked into the calendar and found that France and most of the free world with the exception of Israel and Muslim nations now recognize the Gregorian calendar based on the Christian calendar. The Christian uses the birth of Jesus Christ as the starting date. According to the source the birth of Christ was originally given as Dec. 25, 1 BC modern scholars place the birth of Christ to be 25 Dec. 4 BC. According to the article (source Microsoft Encarta 99) the principal seasons of the church calendar observed by most Christians are, in order, Advent, Christmas, Epiphany, Lent, Easter, Ascension, Pentecost, and Trinity. I find it noteworthy that France freely recognizes the Christmas holiday with its history of religious persecution and in our nation where religion freedom is guaranteed by the constitution Christmas seems to be a word that must be whispered so as not to offend someone who may believe differently.

How is the ACLU in any way involved with business Ol' Sarge? They aren't and to suggest they are is completely ridiculous. To suggest they are anti-religion is also completely ridiculous and has been disproven in multiple debates here on the subject. The ACLU takes cases to ensure that we have the freedom to practice our religion and they also take cases to keep the government secular - in other words they enforce the Constitution. The Christian right vilifies them because they'd like to see us living in a theocracy and they have a short memory on the cases where the ACLU preserves their right to their religion.

I know that these religious groups have to have some sort of boogey man to keep the donations rolling in but it is pretty ridiculous to try and back them up here, especially on this topic which is about business.

I despise the ACLU for the stance it takes on many cases and think is is representative of a far left agenda. My personal oppinion of the ACLU is that the cases and causes "it selects" supports not a constitution free of religion, rather a nation free of religion. Again, America is a Christian nation and founded on Judeo-Christian values and the ACLU cannot rewrite history any better than the democrats can on information leading up to the Iraq war.

There is nothing secular about America but the far left... if you dissagree then put your backing where your mouth is and endorce a candidate for president that dissavows Christianity and we'll watch their demise together. Demand they run on a ticket to remove the Senate and House prayer, remove "In God We Trust" from out money, remove the "One Nation Under God" from our pledge for to do any less would be unconstitutional.

You, and the nation must recognize secularism in America is a "new thing". If it were not a new thing no change would be necessary. The Christians wouldn't be complaining if change hasn't given them reason for pause. I don't share a religious faith but respect what made our nation great and it isn't secularism, it's Christanity and the laws and leaders that reflect the Christain values. ACLU prasing child molestors, gay marriage and numerous forms of anti social responsibility norms does not, I repeat DOES NOT reflect our elected officials running ticket. True there are nitches of America where a communist or a homosexual may be elected to office but be honest they do not represent the majority of American mainstream thinking do they? If they did then we wouldn't be having this debate. If you truely support the ACLU's agenda then lobby your elected representatives to dissavow Christ as school children are required not to even mention the word Christmas in a school setting. If the kids can't give a candy cane to another kid with a merry christmas greeting or speak it then the congress should not be saying prayers. I implore you and like thinking people to please demand this ACLU standard to be publically announced when running for office to support the secular government you profess exist or just shut up.

Here's the skinny on Christian Christmas:



And here's the source:

History Channel on Christmas

Christians can hate the ACLU all they want, but the historical facts speak for themselves. Christmas is an invented holiday that borrows heavily from ancient traditions. Jesus was not born on December 25th. Christians usurped the older winter holidays for their own designs, and they did this hundreds of years after Christ, not BC.

Christians can insist that the United States is not secular all they want too, but sorry. Capitalism knows no higher power. Actually, its economics in general that knows no higher power, as with mathematics, physics, chemistry and so on.

Politics is different. Religion plays a big part in politics, at least on the surface of things. Some politicians like to make big displays of their religions, others do not. Whatever, the crooks still filter in, don't they. You might even think that all this talk about religion is manipulation. Imagine that in a politician.

So all you retailers out there, have your lowly paid help say Merry Christmas all they want! What difference does it make? Eh, you might lose a few sales. Is that so dang important? And all you Christmas shoppers, boycott the stores that make their lowly paid help say Happy Holidays. The X-Box isn't all that important, is it.

Hey get 'em on eBay for $3,000 a pop. Then you don't have to worry what anyone says.

I’m not denying that Christmas as is associated with retail sales has anything to do with historical fact as I stated in post #6. My contention the uproar is about the secular movement to remove Christ from any public role.

What we are talking about is the removal of an American tradition of openly displaying the acknowledgement of the birth of Christ. The secular progressive agenda led by George and the ACLU use threats of lawsuits where they can use threat to accomplish their goal... I honestly don’t think Christians associate the exchange of gifts with the birth of Christ. I do think the American people as a whole recognize the 25th of Dec. marked on the calendar to mean the date celebrated as the birth of Christ. The association of the holiday with the capitalization on the event should not be cause to erase the connection. The playing of Silent Night and other carols in retail in the past linked the need to shop in the spirit of the Three Kings bringing gifts to the baby Jesus.

The only reason for the uproar is because of the secular drive in government to stamp out acknowledgement of, or endorsement of religion has bled over to an arena where the majority may speak out. There are many examples in local government’s allowing display of religious symbolism of other than Christian. I think the slowest of citizens can see this is not a PC attack of compassion towards minority religions but simply an attempt to remove the curse or whisper word of Christ, which up until recent years was a TRADITION!

I’ll give you odds the Christians win and retailers will once again be openly displaying recognition of the association as they did in the past. With the attention given the subject this year the retailers will get the message earlier in the coming year to acknowledge Christ as in the past or pay the price... If liberals or the far left would subscribe to some conservative sites as I do to liberal sites you would already know several major merchants have promised to do so next Christmas season. With the retail split the leverage for a boycott will be full force next Christmas. Christians, given the viable alternative will cause stores to choose between secular thinking supporting PC and and profit. Those choosing wrong will fall like dominos.

Do you think retailers should acknowledge the traditional holiday by placing nativity scenes and banners of Merry Christmas wishes along with wishes towards other religion traditions?

That sounds like a sound solution. Now the only people offended might be us atheists, but most of us celebrate chrismas anyway.

Would you join in on a boycott of stores that refuse to acknowledge the basis of the season in America?

Why would I want to?

Just wondering - what stops them from doing it THIS season? It's not like issuing a memo to company's employees ordering them to say "Merry Christmas" and start playing Christmas musak takes a year of preparation.
Realistically, though, O'Reilly has been preaching the boycott of "Happy Holidays" retailers since early November; from what I hear, Wal-Mart is having one of it's better holiday seasons... which proves that all the boycotts are only good until the next weekend sale is announced.

I've got a question, does instructing your employees to use "Merry Christmas" instead of "Seasons Greetings" or "Happy Holidays" make it any more sanctified shopping at Wal-Mart, Target, or countless other retail stores? Remember, these retailers are in it to make money, not to spread the message of the birth of the Son of God. And telling some mook that he HAS to give any particular greeting if he is going to work for you is not making it a quality religious experience for him.

So while an employee who might not be Christian (or is maybe a burned-out Christian) may be constrained to give the greeting that the Christian majority wants to hear, does it also not kill the spirit of the message?

Well, no one promised a rose garden... If religion and religious symbols offend you then hook up with the ACLU I understand they are getting a town in AZ, NM or some godforsaken area by the name Three Crosses renamed because it offended an atheist in the town. Hey set your aim high and go for renaming half of the cities in CA and start with San Francisco, which in English equals Saint (Christian) Francisco. Hey maybe start with San Antonio, TX so you get more impact with the incumbent leader of this secular nation

Actually, O’Reilly hasn’t called for a boycott but he did mention that Macys have changed their policy and played a free advertisement for them. True Value Hardware also remains traditional... I understand Walgreens will follow suit...it’s a start.


I don’t think the employees should be instructed one way or the other... but if I were a retailer I would pamper every aspect of my prospective customers by displaying every significant symbol and written greetings representing their particular reason for the holiday. My advertisements would all contain like suggestions for methods of celebrating individual holidays.

Once more, how exactly is the ACLU involved with this so called "war on Christmas" ol Sarge. Unless you have some tinfoil hat theory on how these companies are taking marching orders from the ACLU I'd really like to know how they fit in. It is pretty clear you hate them but you haven't explained how you are doing anything more than ranting about them in an off-topic fashion.

As I wrote in my previous post on this thread, post # 15, I'm not so concerned with being told Merry Christmas at retail establishments, as I don't need religious reassurance from the clerk at Wal-Mart (even as pleasant as it is to hear when said). I even said in the same post:
"What I will say is that if I were of another denomination, or not religious at all, I might not want to spend my whole month of December avoiding stores in order to circumvent the inevitable "Merry Christmas". What if I was Jewish and simply needed a new pair of slacks? My company has an office on Wall st in NYC (as I'm sure I've mentioned entirely too many times) that is predominantly Jewish. Surely during the month there will be some of our partners in crime here in Dallas, and I wouldn't want them to feel out of place"

Maybe by "definition", our society might be secular. We're not governed by the clergy, but it's surely noteworthy that the majority of Americans associate themselves with Christianity... in which case, Christmas, regardless of the celebratory manner, is a Celebration of the birth of Christ. Until the last few years in American history, companies held "Christmas parties", stores had "Christmas sales", and our society embraced the first four letters of the word... Heck, I doubt that it's coincidence that the "Holiday" season in America is centered around Christmas isn't it??? ....lol

Ok, to bring this one full circle, let's talk about decorations in our malls, civic centers, and homes as a nation. You often drive down the street to see Christmas trees, wreaths, and other "Christmas" related decor. The majority of Americans awake on December 25th to presents under trees (Lord willing they can afford it). I don't disagree that our Jewish, Muslim, or otherwise Atheist/Agnostic friends shouldn't be imposed on to any great degree and that "Happy Holidays", as odd as it is to hear, doesn't hurt anyone.

Our celebration of Christmas, with the trees and presents do have roots to Pagan history and the winter solstice, but isn't that how traditions begin afterall?

I'll gladly admit that Happy Holidays doesn't hurt anyone... as long as the "secularists" admit that the "Holiday" season wouldn't even be in existence in the US without Christmas, and that for many (if not a majority) of Americans, that revolves around the birth of Christ.

Sorry Bub--have to disagree fairly strongly here. Christmas is secular--and commercial.
I posted this in another thread but it'll work here rather well.
Christmas Should be More Commercial

Peikoff says it better than i can




You'll enjoy the article Aevans--especially since as a good republican you must surely recognize the effect of capitalism on Christmas and how we as Americans have made the holiday uniquely ours.

Once again at fear of sounding like I repeat myself as if I have Alzheimer's disease, the ACLU has a war on Christianity in any public form from symbols to names of cities. The Christian uproar about retailers not recognizing Christmas, as traditionally in the past links them to far-left PC or the far left ACLU. The ACLU doesn't control how business functions and I have never implied that. I have said Christians frustrated by the ACLU in areas they can't control will release frustration against retailers in an arena they can control.

So their logic is to take it out on those who have no control over what the ACLU does? very Christian of them. Tis the Season after all.

disagree with this as well. America was founded by those who wanted to live on their own terms--some for religious reasons, yes. Unfortunately for your argument they also came here for the simple reason of being able to build their own lives and find their fortunes in a New World not already completely controlled by established factions.
If you were brave enough to make the voyage and then the path to building your own vision--you could do so.

But... if it weren't for the birth of Christ, and it's Christian roots, the holiday wouldn't exist.

Leonard Peikoff isn't the majority of the United States, and the holiday isn't called Chaunkwanzaamas.... is it a coincidence that it happens around the Christmas Holiday?

Is it a coincidence that Government jobs give off the Christmas Holiday, but not Kwanzaa?
http://www.hr.ufl.edu/benefits/vac_hol_sick.htm
http://www.postalmag.com/fromourreaders.htm

How many companies don't give off Christmas? Are they giving time off for shopping??? If it was entirely commercial, why would every business in the US that caters to retail business not be open? This surely would suggest that most businesses and our government wants to encourage people to spend time with their families on that day....

Again, that's my view, the Christians are frustrated with the courts deciding the simplest illogic methods the government is "establishing" a religion when a symbol is in public view has been cause much frustration. We are debating the tradition verses present day of open display of the Christmas wishes and symbols. I speak from my perspective growing up in Happy Daze of the 50's throug current "changes." If you want to debate if America is secular or Judeo-Christian based there is a thread in the Constitution Debate section.

More and more businesses are opening even on Christmas day--My shift ends at 1pm.
Once upon a time Aevans, most businesses were closed on major holidays--this is no longer the case. Christmas is one of the last hold outs--and even it is falling into line.
There are many eateries open on Christmas--entertainment centers are open.
The only reason most businesses are not open is because their workers would riot--and if you would state that's because of the religious remnants of christmas I would have to question your reality. As for
No. We have begun to expect that we get such days off. I would place this firmly in the camp of the weak reasoning of the childish "cause we wanna" than because of burning desires to be in church.

Leonard is irrelevant to this--I just liked how he said it, the central reality is that Christmas is a commercial and almost wholly secular capitalistic holiday. Does it still center on the family? yes it does(you cannot find a better marketing ideal)--but it hasn't been for religious purposes in quite awhile. Christmas is about Santa Claus--not religion.
If the religious aspects were such an important reason perhaps the holiday might be moved to a part of the calender that better meets the timeline of jesus' birth in your bible--somewhere around June isn't it?
Try and strip the secular traditions and pageantry away from Christmas, the trees, santa and gift giving, etc... and see just how long it will last as a holiday.

It looks like the complaints about a secularist Christmas are working:

1. The 'Community Tree' in Witchita Kansas is being renamed the 'Christmas Tree.'

2. Walgreens will no longer ban the word 'Christmas' from its advertising.

3. Lowes is selling 'Christmas Trees' again as opposed to 'Holiday Trees'.

4. Macy's will no longer ban the word 'Christmas' from its advertising.

Source

It would seem my hypothesis from earlier in this thread is turning into more of a theory.