Do you think retailers should acknowledge the traditional holiday by placing nativity scenes and banners of Merry Christmas wishes along with wishes towards other religion traditions?

Retailers will use whatever (legal) marketing scheme they can to increase their bottom line. Christmas is the ultimate consumerist free-for-all. If retailers believe they will improve their sales quota by using nativity scenes or some other religious-like symbolism, then they will. I have no problem with this. Afterall, Christmas is not Christian anymore (if it ever was). It is a retail holiday of massive consumer spending. Walmart is but one temple where acolytes demonstrate their religious fervor celebrating their love of consumption.

Would you join in on a boycott of stores that refuse to acknowledge the basis of the season in America?

Yes, I boycott as many stores that I can during this season. My consumption measurably goes down. While I am a capitalist, I am not a very devout Consumer. I enjoin everyone to boycott Christmas.

In other words basically what you are saying is that because you can't really find anyone to blame for businesses saying "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas" that somehow you are going to bring the ACLU into this and it is their fault? You keep trying to explain yourself Ol Sarge and you keep creating more wild conspiracy theories each time.

You started our ranting about the fact that retailers weren't saying "Merry Christmas" and now you are somehow blaming the ACLU for the whole thing. That is a huge leap of logic that doesn't really follow.

I honestly don't care why the Christians have their feathers ruffeled about Christmas... I have concluded however, that it would be logical for a person to equal out a difference in an arena under their control.

Let's use an example in the news reported on the O'Reilly factor this evening where an atheist is suing to remove crosses of dead police officers along locations where they were killed. The ACLU supports this EDITED TO REMOVE ATTEMPT AT BYPASSING PROFANITY FILTER and you are a survivor of the police officer and if the cross is removed you then see Christmas removed from public view you may want to vent your frustration on a, or a group of retailers.

This whole debate is stupid, the ACLU and the far left is stupid and before the fat guy hits the roof the retailers will have reevaluated where they stand. I may be wrong but I don't think so. Better anger a few seculars and atheists than the masses.

The ACLU represents selectively with few exceptions indicating it has an agenda. I hope the Democratic Party stands in support of the ACLU as a shield for where it stands on all issues related. Now would be a good time to be a consultant to sort this mess out because I'm sure the retailers and the DNC want to select the more popular stance on the issue.

Of course it would. It would not be called Christmas, but civilizations have been celebrating the winter solstice for eons and practically every culture in the world had a late December celebration centuries before Jesus was even a twinkle in God's eye. As has been pointed out, even the Church has not always celebrated Christmas (and some denominations still don't celebrate it, due to its pagan origins). Were it not for the birth of Jesus, we might be celebrating Sacaea or Saturnalia or Yule or, simply, Solstice Day, but you can be damned sure we'd be following the tradition of every civilization since at least the Egyptians by taking time off at the end of the shortening of the days. That's why the early Church decided to arbitrarily set the Mass of Christ on December 25 rather than when Jesus might actually have been born. The roots of the holiday are NOT Christian, they're astronomical.


More and more every year. I'll be working on Christmas - in a store that sells CDs, books, and DVDs. Just about every commercial outlet that I know of in my area will be open on Christmas - gas stations, restaurants, hotels, convenience stores, pharmacies, WalMart, Blockbuster. The only exception I can think of is a couple of grocery stores (and, never fear, they'll do extremely well in the couple of days leading up to the biggest celebration of gluttony in our obese nation's calendar).


Like I said, many of them will be - and more remain open with every passing year. Those that don't will already have had their tills well stuffed by maniacal consumers who are, even now, out in droves, many spending more on non-essentials during the month of December than they do during the rest of the year in its entirety.


Really? I'd think it would suggest that most businesses are simply giving their workers a day off, whether they have families or not. Do we observe the birthday of Martin Luther King, Jr. to encourage people to spend time with their families? Or Columbus Day or New Year's Day or Veteran's Day or President's Day? Some may choose to spend time with their families on those days, but there's nothing implicit in the granting of holidays that they are family-oriented.

As for the government encouraging family time, federal holidays are only applicable to federal employees and the District of Columbia. Individual states and individual employers may choose to observe them or not. And, for that matter, Christmas itself wasn't even a federal holiday until 1870 (and it didn't extend to federal employees outside the capital until 1885). Prompted by a consortium of bankers and businessmen to institute "bank holidays", employees were originally denied pay on those days. When Labor Day was initiated in 1894, the House Committe on Labor declared that "the use of national holidays is to emphasize some great event or principle in the minds of the people by giving them a day of rest and recreation, a day of enjoyment, in commemoration of it". There's nothing in there about "families".

Frankly, I don't care whether retailers acknowledge the traditional holiday with appropriately pagan evergreens or whether they acknowledge the Catholic feast day that was imposed upon it with appropriately religious decorations like crucifixes and fish. But I do wish some retailers would develop a bit of taste. To me, Christmas has always been one of the most hideously ugly times of year - unless, of course, everyone's ghastly decorating efforts are buried by a foot of snow.

It's been some time since "the [Christian] reason for the season" was paramount. This year, like every year for the past half-century or so, the bottom line of the holiday season will be... the bottom line. Trust me, coverage of the Christmas season will be much more about profits than peace - though political pundits on both sides are doing their damnedest to see that Christmas is less about either. It seems that our political and religious leaders and their partisan supporters are far more interested in scoring political points, running down opponents for a variety of reasons, and attacking organizations like the Christian Coalition or the ACLU than they are in, say, the teachings of Christ. The little baby Jesus has become nothing more than a political football. It's as unsurprising as it is sad.

Merry Christmas.

DJD,

Heh, what a victory, eh? So the retailers are going along with the pressure to continue an historical fiction that Christ has anything to do with the winter celebration called various things throughout time. Ah well, if it makes folks feel any better. Some might not, but to hell with them, eh?

I would suggest to Christians that they stop with the tree thing. That is definitely Scandinavian and pagan. The deer thing too. No conifers and no reindeer in the Middle East. Keep to the camels, sheep and wise men. Candles are okay, but olive oil lamps would be better. Olive branches would be good instead of holly. Keep the manger scenes and the star -- those are pretty cool. Also the angels. Mistletoe is a big no-no, it's poisonous and encourages promiscuity. How'd that ever get in the winter celebration anyway? Seems more appropriate for the spring fertility rites.

A recent letter to the editor in a local newspaper encourages Christians to just ignore the greed and gluttony parts of the celebration. That's a pretty healthy idea. Meanwhile, if December is a handy time to celebrate the birth of God, go for it. Just leave the pagan stuff alone. It confuses the children.

Wertz,

I'm summarizing and analyzing a biography on Oscar Wilde. Are you guys related or reincarnated or something? You could be brothers, but a lot better than Willie Wilde (phew, what a name). Here's a drink of cheer to the aesthetics, and God bless La Madre, Speranza! Lilies and sunflowers forever, except those Paris guys and their annoying gloomy decadence.

Good job w/ arguing aesthetics. Some people seemingly will not admit that no holiday of any other religion is taken off by our national government. Christmas, regardless of the retail significance, is still observed by many major retailers, most other businesses, as well as our federal government. Wertz, maybe in your town there are stores open on Christmas, but even here in Dallas there are little more than a restaurant or two and some bars open... generally service related companies and even then with limited hours. Ironically, last year I tried to go to the gym (I used to work our @ 24 hr Fitness) and they were even still closed at 8:30 that night... *I ate entirely too much and was trying to work some of it off*...

The bottom line is that in many major metropolitan areas (well, outside of NYC), even Wal-Mart is most often closed. Guess it's just a coincidence that it falls on Christmas... oh, wait... maybe it's actually because the "Holiday Season" revolves around Christmas.....

So I suppose tradition has no place in holiday celebration?
Guess we ought to just throw away one of the most American holidays as well... how 'bout Thanksgiving?

Anyone know what Thanksgiving really was? Here's a good link...
http://www.new-life.net/thanks01.htm

The bottom line is that in Western Society, we took a culimination of good ideas and local traditions, and here we are at the Christmas season. This is what happened with Thanksgiving, Halloween, etc. Does that diminish the fact that Christmas is still the celebration of the birth of Christ? Does that diminish the fact that across America, millions of Americans make their (sometimes once annual) trip to Church for Candlelight services (or midnight mass, etc)?

Of course not. We can argue diminutive points in hypothetical history (as none of us were there), or we can acknowledge that this holiday wouldn't be a part of American culture without Christianity and it's influence in our great nation. Lest we not forget, that even until very recent times even our schools practiced prayer. Regardless of your view, our country's culture has been anything but secular until recent years.

If a business caters to people of non-Christian decent, sure, saying Merry Christmas might be offensive... but then again, I'm confident that the majority of non-Christians are cognizant of the true meaning of the holiday and would love for people to take a minute to embrace those less fortunate in their surroundings... to take a minute to lay down the bickering and quarrel... and to remember what Jesus stood for in every text, biblical or historical, and that would be Love and Grace.
melikalikimaka everyone....

aevans176,

Going back to the local newspaper's letters to the editor, in today's edition, a Christian reverand points out that the word holiday derives from the two words holy day.

I think this settles the dispute. Saying Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays carries the same sentiment, and that is to acknowledge the holiness of the season. I find this satisfying to both my Christian and pagan influences, plus Jewish, Muslim and a plethora of other winter celebrations of various names. One guy wrote in that he celebrates Yule, which goes from December 20 to January 1. Here's the link:

Gazette Letters 12-06-05

Regarding working on the 25th of December, it's an old industrial revolution tradition of treating employees like dirt. See A Christmas Carol.

Bah Humbug and a Merry Holiday to All!

Edit addition: Gee, I wonder if this will impact Holiday Inn (Holy Day Inn)?

How very arrogant. Some here have actually put forth concrete information about the origin of the winter holiday now known as Christmas, but you dismiss that as "diminutive" and because you state unequivocally that argument is futile because you know that it wouldn't be anything without religion...oh, pardon, not just any religion, just Christianity, that everybody else should just shut up and believe what you believe, because you're right and everyone else is wrong.

This attitude seems to be endemic with the religious folk - believe it because I say so.

Well, excuse me, I'd rather review the facts and decide for myself, thank you. And I believe most intelligent, open-minded people would feel the same.

Christmas is something different to every individual. There have been many posts here about the various celebrations and their origins, and how they have affected the modern holiday known as Christmas. Just because what one person celebrates is different from what you believe does not make it any less valid.

The bottom line is that in Western Society, we take the culimination of good ideas and local traditions, and we keep the parts we like and discard the rest--wanna guess what parts of the Holiday season have been dumped Aevans?

Every year more and more places of business will be open on Christmas day. They will probably stay closed in the morning--but afternoon to late evening they will start opening--Why not take advantage and start earning a profit as soon as possible.

It's not necessarily a part of religious belief, Daffy, but moreover a truth of American history.

If the Holiday Season, as we coin the phrase, wasn't centered on Christmas, why on earth were their Christmas sales until very recent years, why do gov't offices close on Christmas, and why do schools close around Christmas (as opposed to Yom Kippur or any other Holidays)?

You don't have to believe in Christ to understand that this season, in America, revolves around December 25th, which is celebrated by Christians (America's dominant religion by leaps and bounds) as Christ's birthday. It's not a matter of arrogance, but moreover a matter of historical record.

Sure, capitalism has sunk its teeth into the season, and in many cases stores have attempted to include people of other (and a lack there of) faiths by using Happy Holidays. I presume that's ok. It still doesn't negate the fact that the tree stands on the side of the road read "Christmas Trees", many of us attend "Christmas parties", and the season revolves around one day.... December 25.

I don't watch Fox News, but it is hardly breaking news in my mind that the American merchants are capitalists, far more interested in their bottom line than in the promotion of Christmas as a religious holiday.

Of far more interest to me was the news on the television last night that several local churches had decided to have services on Christmas Eve, but none on Christmas day, so that their employees could have the day off to spend it with their families...

Question for debate:

Do you think retailers should acknowledge the traditional holiday by placing nativity scenes and banners of Merry Christmas wishes along with wishes towards other religion traditions?

Would you join in on a boycott of stores that refuse to acknowledge the basis of the season in America?

Bronners in Frankenmuth, Michigan greets you with "Jesus is the reason for the season." and a plethora of nativity scenes and banners of Merry Christmas It is the only store I am aware of that stresses Christmas, and its origins to that extent. If I were to boycott the stores that did not advertise the Christmas Season, and its origins to that point, I would have to travel hundreds of miles to shop. I would find it totally impractical to boycott the local grocery store for instance, and live off fruitcakes and candy canes purchased over the Internet...

I think that people should call it whatever they want but that it is absolutely ridiculous for people to get all huffy if its Christmas or Holiday. I mean there are so many bigger problems in the world and Christmas or HOlidays is not the biggest one by any means. Whatever your religion and beliefs, its still the holiday season and celebrate your religion and shop where you want regardless of what a store is celebrating.

O’Reilly has a “chart on his Web site of stores that use the phrase ‘Happy Holidays,’ along with a poll that asks, ‘Will you shop at stores that do not say “Merry Christmas”?’” (Link). He may be too busy working on that Enemies List to run a “Christmas Under Siege” campaign this year. He also snorted at the economic reasons behind the change.



There you have it. Retailers shouldn’t cater to 20% of potential customers because they’re “nutty.” That kind of customer service is too extreme. A sound economic policy in action.

There is a way Christians who take offense with non-Christians who don’t care for “Merry Christmas” can wash their hands of boycotts; practice that Amendment they love to protect and convert that nutty 20% to one Christian denomination or another. Can they pull it off without more federal assistance for faith-based initiatives?

From the NYTimes article:


Eh. Whatever flushes the voters’ toilets and brings them to the polls. We probably needn’t worry for the meaning of Christmas. Judge Alito will save the holiday if he's confirmed.


O ye Market Forces, thy Power of Buyers and thy Probability of New Entrants, Alito shall smite thee and restoreth dignity to the confirmation of judges to the highest court in the land of the Christ, the son of the one-upon-a-time Living God.

Joking aside I spent a few Christmases in Japan. Most Japanese are, I believe, Buddhists. Being non-Christians the way they embraced a total commercialization of the holiday made me sad. They go all out with the shopping, celebrate all of the trappings and none of the meaning. That’s where this hype for political hegemony will lead us.

Sorry Aevans, I'm going to have to call you on your Dallas comment since I lived there only two years ago.

You are in fact correct that most major retailers are closed on Christmas day, but they are most definitely open until 7 or 8 on Christmas eve and they are open bright and early on the day after Christmas. These very same retailers that you claim are closed because they want employees to spend time with family or because of the religious significance almost always have people working starting in the afternoon on Christmas day to prepare for the following day's sales. Just go ask the manager or even a clerk in Macy's or another department store if they had people working on Christmas day. I'm pretty sure you'll get a yes out of them.

Grocery stores are closed in the morning but usually open by the afternoon to allow you to buy those last minute purchases for your Christmas dinner. Most restaurants are closed but the ones that aren't usually offer a pre-fixed menu.

There was an interesting story on CNN about megachurches:


Why do the churches hate Christmas?

Could it be that perhaps all of these places are closed on Christmas for business reasons? Would you really be shopping at a department store on Christmas day, even if they were open and had sales? I doubt it. Grocery stores are open later in the day usually because people do shop there and they can justify being open.

Don't try and paint Dallas as somehow different than the rest of the country and especially Orlando, FL - they are cut from the same cloth.

The overriding theme you should be seeing here is that pretty much everything done around Christmas by a business is done for business reasons.

The church angle has me confused. At my church (Catholic), Christmas is the biggest attendance day of the year. It is standing room only for all 4 or 5 masses. I'm not sure why these evangelical churches would cancel on such a day...

As for the hullabaloo over "Happy Holidays" versus "Merry Christmas", I don't see the big deal. Even the White House is calling the season "A celebration of all things bright and beautiful" link. White House Christmas cards say "Happy Holidays". link

The first lady was asked:


link

The only time the "C" word is used by the White House (that I have seen) is in connection with a tree or a card (although the actual card does not use the C word).

I don't think it's a big deal. It's political correctness in my mind. Don't want to offend anyone, you know...

It appears Bush has taken part in the War on Christmas.





Any Christian who disagreed with the invasion could've told you that, Mr. Farah.

More likely, in light of Bush's faith-based and pro-life initiatives his religious base is acting like spoiled, shrieking harpies.

Simply put, some churches that CNN happened to poll aren't staying open. Shame on those churches. I'd love to hear a poll of the denominations nationwide to see what the true percentage of closures are. I've never heard of that... and frankly, most Church-goers typically go to Candlelight Services (or midnight mass) the night prior to celebrate the birth of Christ. This year, its a simple coincidence that Christmas falls on Sunday. Attendance might very well be low in that many people celebrate the religious portion of the holiday on Christmas eve... (I'd guess that most Christians would really agree....)

I think you're seeing Capitalism from a very backwards light. Businesses, as a whole, aren't open because Americans wouldn't shop on Christmas. Why on earth is that??? (*tongue in cheek*)....
Maybe it's because they're spending the day with their families!!!! If it was a specifically commercial holiday, the presents would be open and then people would go about their days...Come on CJ, you have to admit that wherever it is that you've worked in your days, most people don't want to work on Christmas! (for good reason...)

I also used the word many when discussing retailers, as most would probably even be appropriate. Malls aren't open, most restaurants, etc...heck, even Kroger by my house will be closed nearly the whole day (they re-open at 3p, but are a 24hr Kroger)...

You're right about businesses doing what's best for businesses, but often that is a direct reflection on the American populus. Very few want to work on Christmas, and even fewer are out patronizing local businesses. It doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to figure out that if there were a demand, the businesses would probably be open... but since there isn't, it's probably a reflection on American society as a whole. People are staying home with loved ones... and again, if it had nothing to do with Christmas, why are all these things happening on December 25th?.... Why not November 10th? Or October 14th??? ...

Even if you take the Christian context away, the holiday still, for many Americans, means something far greater than hitting the Gap to pick up a sweater for the lovely lady at home. It's more a time to revel in the goodness of people that we often miss. It's a time to remember that some people don't have it as good as we, and time to spend precious moments with those we love. Hence... why our nation takes a step back like no other holiday. Trust me, the Super Wal-Mart near my parents house in Shreveport, LA doesn't close any other time. Last year we tried to go get Egg Nog at about lunch time and it was locked up as tight as a drum.... that surely doesn't happen on Memorial day or the 4th of July...

Yes, shame on all those Eastern Orthodox christians who celebrate Christmas on January 7th. Shame on the Armenian Church which celebrates the Epiphany on January 6th rather than the Birth. Shame on the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Puritans for their lack of Christmas celebration. This is not to mention all the non-Christians who may or may not celebrate Christmas. Shame on them too (just in case).


Why don't all businesses stay open 24 hours/day? Are they staying home to celebrate Christmas on, say, the 28th of September?


Wal-Mart is your one-thing sample, is it? My bet is that *all* Wal-Marts are closed on the 25th of December; it's a corporate policy. You can be assured, though, that if the shopping habits of potential customers had a significant spike on the 25th that this corporate policy would change.


Memorial day is not for remembering the honored dead? The 4th of July is not for celebrating the inception of the USA? Certainly, there are businesses closed during these times. Since Wal-Mart is open on those days, we can assume that it is both unpatriotic and anti-military?

Ummm... I'm going to assume that you didn't read the previous posts?

Basically, the nature of the CNN article was that there are many "mega churches" that aren't even going to have service on Christmas Day. Simply put, they expected low turn out and planned to not have services. It wasn't a lack of religious observance, but more a foregoing of the religious nature of the day for practicality (which was the purpose of Cube Jockey posting the piece). I was saying "shame on them", in that they probably should've decided to have Sunday services even in the light of low turn out. that's all...

I think I'll sum up my response to the rest of your post with a little lesson in demand-side economics. In the event that the American people wanted to be able to shop on Christmas day, as in the idea that they maybe didn't have anything "better" to do, stores would be open. However, most stores are not. This is why golf shops (as an example) aren't open at 3am on Tuesday. Simply put, the customers won't be shopping. What I'm saying is that Christmas day is important to the American people for purposes completely aside from commerical interests... as capitalism really speaks for itself. America speaks for itself, even in the face of cynics... Christmas is the only day of its kind in American economics. No other day garners the closing of businesses on this scale. Why is that?

The counterpoint, aevans, is that it is completely irrelevant why people are celebrating Christmas. The point is that people are home and they aren't shopping, although many people do venture out to get groceries late in the afternoon which is why many major branches of grocery stores are open then.

Your "side" in this debate has suggested that businesses have done something wrong by referring to this time of year as "the holidays" instead of "Christmas". What I think has been pretty plainly proven is that businesses do not care one bit about the religious or national significance of this holiday, they care about fattening their bottom line in the 4th quarter. They don't care about the fact that people spend time with their families on this day either, in fact many retail businesses have people working on Christmas day to prepare for sales the following day. Because these same businesses realize that not everyone shopping celebrates Christmas they have chosen to be inclusive and use "Happy Holidays" instead because they want to gain and keep as many sales as possible.

Are you really trying to suggest that sales are so high on this day because of the religious holiday? Sales are what they are because these same businesses have drummed it into us over the decades that we need to get out there and put ourselves in as much debt as possible to celebrate the holiday. Over decades they have shaped the holiday and have turned it into the commercial cash cow it is today.

I don't often watch commercials because I have Tivo and can skip through them, but I noticed a Wal-mart commercial the other day. The basic gist was a family sitting in their living room with a ton of presents under the tree and everything they opened was some nifty electronic gadget (cameras, dvd players, computers, etc). Do you really think that after decades of being exposed to that people haven't been influenced by it to make the holiday what it is today?

I'm saying, Religion or not, the season revolves around one day. Undeniably December 25th. You can debate whether that's religious or not, you can tell yourself that it's about the money and there aren't managers and business owners that allow their employees to be off... even if there would be business (please don't forget, I work for an international company... and people call us on holidays) on those days. If the Holidays were about another religion... why was the "commercial" that you saw a family sitting under a Christmas tree opening presents???

Think what you'd like about commercialization... it's still the commercialization of Christmas!!!!

aevans176,

Ah, the Internet is such a wonderful source of information. I knew the Christmas tree originated in Scandinavia, but it wasn't until German conversion that it came inside. Before Christianity, the revered tree was the oak, but few of them grow in the northern climes. Maples and ash, but not oak. Lots of conifers.

One legend has magic in it, where an oak tree is chopped down and a fir grows from the roots. Eh, I reject that as story-time. But here's a more believable history:

Christmas Tree History

I know your appeal is toward tradition. So's mine, but they are just older traditions than you're using.

While traipsing around the Internet, I ran across the O'Reilly Factor's input on this, and I imagine Mr. O'Reilly's rantings on the subject brought this thread to AD. He claims that all businesses should drop down on their knees in thanks that Jesus was born, for the season brings in the big bucks.

Except the winter season was celebrated way before Jesus and continued to be celebrated even with Christian conversion. It isn't much of a stretch to imagine winter celebrations carrying on even if Jesus had never been born. The central day would be winter solstice, not the arbitrary date of December 25th. Eh, off by a few days, what the heck.

So gather 'round the Christmas tree. It is Christian in that it was used to symbolize the idea of a trinity during German conversion, and maybe that knowledge will help Christians to accept the tree, thinking about the Trinity instead of just a traditional decoration. One meditation that strikes me: What point of the triangle has the Holy Spirit? Apparently, the trees were hung upside down to begin with. Was that symbolism or practicality to keep the trees fresh?

As far as O'Reilly goes, he is just full of hot air as usual. Maybe he should use a Christmas blimp, symbolizing his enormously inflated ego.

This is an interesting thread. I'll admit, I didn't know it would have legs like this!

Do you think retailers should acknowledge the traditional holiday by placing nativity scenes and banners of Merry Christmas wishes along with wishes towards other religion traditions?

I'll just parrot most of the posters so far. Only if they want to. It usually isn't smart business practice to appeal only to any one market, and take the chance of ostracizing others. I like nativity scenes, but I wouldn't avoid a store that didn't display it.

Would you join in on a boycott of stores that refuse to acknowledge the basis of the season in America?

No. Not so long ago, I was watching the news (a rare event), and they showed a clip of a squirrel eating a lollipop. They discussed this squirrel for several minutes. "Can you guess what he is eating? A lollipop! My goodness!" It was obviously filler because there wasn't much to report. Things must be even slower for O'Reilly these days.

Also parroting what others have said...Christmas is more pagan holiday than religious holiday. When Christianity spread, it added traditions to generate more widespread appeal so it would be absorbed more readily. Voila! Winter Solstice, presents, trees, holly, ect. I think this makes it a nicer holiday myself, though for our family we still try to keep it a celebration of Christ's birth.

We're not talking about religion, but moreover that in America, the season revolves around Christmas, the day... December 25th. It's true, undeniable, and no one seems to be able to debate that.

So, Christian or not, why would we have to beesech ourselves to saying Happy Holidays??? If our "Holiday Season" revolves around being off work, shopping for presents, and the majority of US businesses closing on 12/25... what does that have to do with any other holiday? Even in the "commercial" CJ mentioned... it has a Christmas tree. Heck , that was Walmart!!

aevans176,

I see, it's the old narrow it down time. December 25th is the official holiday as defined by US President Grant's declaration of, I believe, 1870. Officially, it is a holiday.

So Merry Holiday is most certainly appropriate. It is a federal holiday, not a federal religious day. Federals can't make official religious days by the First Amendment restriction. But anyone can say Merry Christmas if they want, except maybe store employees who have to follow store rules. Whatever, Christmas, Holiday, it's the same wish. Have a Merry One, eh? I guess that would be the California way

However, I thought it interesting that Christians have a bona fide claim to the Christmas tree. Up until now, I thought it was purly pagan and a usurped symbol.

There's another change going on in my attitude. On some holiday seasons, I've felt like answering Merry Christmas with Up Your's. With all this pushing around, I'm starting to feel like that again, except this time I'll do it with a smile.

Edit reconsideration: Up O'Reilly's! That's the ticket.

The shopping season starts the day after Thanksgiving and ends usually sometime either before or after New Years. There are quite a few holidays in there for multiple religions, plus techniccally you have to count Thanksgiving and New Years. The country might seem to revolve around Dec 25th, but that only makes sense because most people in our country come from a Christian tradition whether they are religious or not. If we had a majority Jewish or Muslim population I'm sure things would be different.

Business wants to commercialize all of these holidays. They want you buying Christmas gifts, they want you buying 8 presents for Hanukkah, they want you buying gifts for your office holiday party, heck they just want you in the store taking advantage of the sales. It makes a lot of sense to say "Happy Holidays" because guess what, there is more than one holiday people are celebrating.

Well, it's good that someone thinks like I do! But the point is that that has nothing to do with saying Merry Christmas over Happy Holidays. All of those stores selling such items as clothing, shoes, electronics, etc. have a responsibility to answer to their customer. If the American consumer seems to be enraged with the term Happy Holidays there will be a reversal to Merry Christmas. Is this fair? Not really. Because, as you so nicely but CJ, the holiday season incorporates many other holidays. If a store wants to say Merry Christmas, I do not have an issue with it, Muslim and Jewish friends I'm close with don't have a problem with it. Granted, we are not the American free republic populace, but I think it serves to prove that if the tables were turned, Christians wouldn't be so ticked off by not saying Merry Christmas... raises the question about Christians in a Muslim country like Iran.

Do you think retailers should acknowledge the traditional holiday by placing nativity scenes and banners of Merry Christmas wishes along with wishes towards other religion traditions?

Would you join in on a boycott of stores that refuse to acknowledge the basis of the season in America?

[/quote]

1. No, retailers should steer clear of favoring one religion over another, or even supporting any religious type displays. What people refuse to acknowledge in their deep dark places is that there is a secular holiday and religous holiday. THe exchange of presents and figures of Santa Claus, Rudolph, the Grinch, elves, all these trappings have no connection to the true Christmas celebration. THe true Christmas celebration is of the birth of Jesus Christ, his promise to save the world from sin. A great many Americans celebrate the "Holidays" with no mention or thought of Jesus, which is fine. THose people are not Christians and they are not celebrating Christmas, they are celebrating the 'Holidays". Please don't confuse the two and don't sully Jesus' name by lumping him in with Santa Claus and all that other claptrap.
2. No, I would not boycott a store that did not acknowledge Christmas. I go to church and worship Jesus in my way, I don't go to the store expecting a religious experience, I am just getting stuff for the family.

JeepMan,

'98 Cherokee Sport with offroad stuff here. It's a Jeep thing, eh?

I like your take because it brings the question to the separation of church and retail store. What does pressuring retail stores prove or accomplish? It proves that the public can intimidate retail stores and accomplishes an act of collective will.

So are these parts of worshipping? Naw, they're fully secular in nature. You've pointed out what ought to be obvious.

Let's see, what would Jesus do? Cast the money changers out of the Temple, that's a for sure. But did Jesus ever preach in the marketplace? I don't remember reading about such an incident. I bet it never happened because he knew that people buying stuff aren't really listening. Today they might be in ugly moods and he'd have to compete with the Christmas muzak.

That's why we have churches and other places of worship in the first place. People get to concentrate for a while on what's truly important without the distractions of blaring sales pitches. Can you imagine the cacophony in ancient markets?

I just happened to be in Bentonville, Arkansas at Wal-Mart world headquarters this week. They had a Christmas tree and lots of Christmas decorations in their offices. And more than one person wished me Merry Christmas. Just thought it was interesting.

I used to work in Japan, where Christmas is a huge holiday, observed by everyone in a secular, consumer-driven way. But they still call it "Christmas" - actually Kurisumasu, which sounds sort of the same. Which doesn't seem to offend any Shintos or Buddhists there.

Very cool. The Buddhists I've known have all been okay with what others believe. Seems to be one of those lower levels of enlightenment.

I'm going with Merry Happy!, as that seems very Korean for some reason. I play a Korean-made electric guitar, so it fits, right?

Yep, works for me.

Well isn't that something. I find it interesting that I was on a conference call with 10 people from York, England yesterday and that they all wished us here in the US a "Merry Christmas". It was ironic because one of the people on the conference call on our end is Jewish. She didn't seem to mind...

I personally haven't been abroad at Christmas, but wonder how the rest of "western society" approaches this holiday season. Is it "Merry Christmas" or Happy Holidays in Europe??

Excellent post Daffy, you just completely demolished any credibility that Fox and O'Reilly had on this, not that it was a credible story in the first place. Wow, maybe I can buy *holiday* souvenirs at the FOX website.

Quite to the contrary. I heard Jackie Mason and others interviewed on FNC basically say "Thanks!" to Christians for giving them a place to practice their own religion without fear.


Jackie Mason on Christmas

I know I'm not bothered by someone saying "Happy Hanukkah", and have said it myself a few times

I am amused by "Kwanza" however, knowing that it was invented quite recently by a social worker and has zero historical basis....

I think they should feel free to do so if they like. And its not just the nativity scenes . Foe example what would one call a Menorah? An interesting candelabra?
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No I would just think they were idiots trying to be politically correct

No. Stores do these things for financial reasons, not political ones. I used to live near a Jewish neighborhood and I certainly wouldn't expect the local grocery store to replace their "Happy Hannukah" sign with a "Merry Christmas" one. Now I live in a largely Baptist area, and during the Christmas and Easter seasons a local automobile dealer has commercials that are nothing but 30 seconds of talking about Jesus. I'm sure he believes in what he's saying and it has the added bonus of being good for business.

Furthermore this entire debate demonstrates the power of mass media influence. If big media would be as hell-bent on, say, getting people to stop littering (for example) as they are on polarizing people by promoting emotionally divisive issues, we'd live in a more civil and sane society.

Your Jewish coworker demonstrated a lot of class. Those who complain about others simply being polite during the winter holiday season are demonstrating boorish behavior.

Here's some history on how this whole Christmas/Holiday thing got started:

Who Started The War and Where

Merry Happy!