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christopher
Were JFK currently 40 and running as he did in his day would he today be a Liberal a Conservative or a Centrist?

Would today's Democratic party even nominate him and could he win that nomination?
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Victoria Silverwolf
Pretty middle-of-the-road, I think.

Strongly liberal on civil rights. Anti-communist. Strongly in favor of the separation of church and state. (He wouldn't give the time of day to the Religious Right -- and neither would Barry Goldwater.) Pro-technology, pro-business, pro-tax cuts. Probably against same-sex marriage, but that has more to do with his time. More of an internationalist than an isolationist. A friend of the United Nations. Popular around the world.

He would be a typical centrist Democrat. With his charisma, he would be nominated in a heart beat.

If this is one of those threads intended to show that the Democratic Party has drifted to the Left, it just ain't so. The whole nation has drifted -- or rather, run as fast as it could --to the Right, and the Democratic Party has just run a little slower than the GOP.

Amlord
I agree with pretty much everything that Victoria said...


...except that he would be (in my opinion) a moderate Republican and not a Democrat. I think he would be in the mold of Newt Gingrich or John McCain: a populist Republican.

Undoubtedly JFK was as patriotic and flag-waving as they come. "Ask not what your country can do for you" seems to be about as conservative a statement as any politician can make.

JFK distanced himself from religion (actually, from the Vatican) simply to get elected. Of course, he was not overly religious and his behind the scenes exploits are the stuff of legend innocent.gif .

I wonder if his don't back down foreign policy would win many Democrats over today...

Would today's Democratic party even nominate him and could he win that nomination?

Today? I doubt it.

JFK was the guy who put American troops into Vietnam (as advisors...). JFK is the guy who didn't back down despite the global consequences during the Cuban Missile Crisis. JFK is the guy who cut taxes--especially for businesses and high tax bracket earners (he dropped the top rate from 90% to 70%).

Would any Democrat today utter these words?

QUOTE
Economic Club of New York on December 14, 1962

Less than a month ago, this nation reminded the world that it possessed both the will and the weapons to meet any threat to the security of free men. The gains we have made will not be given up and the course that we have pursued will not be abandoned. But in the long run, that security will not be determined by military or diplomatic moves alone. It will be affected by the decisions of finance ministers, as well as by the decisions of Secretaries of State and Secretaries of Defense; by the deployment of fiscal and monetary weapons, as well as by military weapons; and, above all, by the strength of this nation's economy, as well as by the strength of our defenses.

<snip>

I'm not talking about a "quickie" or a temporary tax cut, which would be more appropriate if a recession were imminent. Nor am I talking about giving the economy a mere shot in the arm, to ease some temporary complaint. I am talking about the accumulated evidence of the last five years that our present tax system, developed as it was, in good part, during World War II to restrain growth, exerts too heavy a drag on growth in peace time; that it siphons out of the private economy too large a share of personal and business purchasing power; that it reduces the financial incenitives [sic] for personal effort, investment, and risk-taking. In short, to increase demand and lift the economy, the federal government's most useful role is not to rush into a program of excessive increases in public expenditures, but to expand the incentives and opportunities for private expenditures.
http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/j...lubaddress.html


CruisingRam
He would be villified as a left wing liberal, and probably the democratic party would not nominate him as "unelectable" do to his far left ideals in social issues.

He was for civil rights, he was pretty liberal for his day on almost every social issue- and in context of the times- he would be pro-gay rights today, against prayer in school etc and against the right wings attempt to create a theocracy in America .

As there were nearly no differences between the modern policies of Clinton and JFK as far as pragmatic domestic and foriegn policies- Clinton was vilified for his social stance on social issues and personal lifestyle- in fact, I think Clinton is almost the carbon copy of a modern day JFK from his personal life to his personal beliefs- I think JFK wouldn't stand a chance in todays politics due to his private life.
Amlord
I wouldn't be so quick to tout JFK's civil rights record.

He signed no significant civil rights bills into law. He voted AGAINST the 1957 Civil Rights Act (as did most other Democrats). The 1957 Civil Rights Act

Sure, Kennedy gave lip service to civil rights during the 1960 campaign, but the proof is in the pudding. He did put his brother in charge of the justice department and there is no doubt that Robert Kennedy was a strong supporter of civil rights.

On social issues, Kennedy appointed Byron White to the USSC. White's dissent in Roe v. Wade is a strong one in which he claimed the court had created a new civil right: WHITE, J. -- dissenting

QUOTE
At the heart of the controversy in these cases are those recurring pregnancies that pose no danger whatsoever to the life or health of the mother but are, nevertheless, unwanted for any one or more of a variety of reasons -- convenience, family planning, economics, dislike of children, the embarrassment of illegitimacy, etc. The common claim before us is that, for any one of such reasons, or for no reason at all, and without asserting or claiming any threat to life or health, any woman is entitled to an abortion at her request if she is able to find a medical advisor willing to undertake the procedure.

The Court, for the most part, sustains this position: during the period prior to the time the fetus becomes viable, the Constitution of the United States values the convenience, whim, or caprice of the putative mother more than the life or potential life of the fetus; the Constitution, therefore, guarantees the right to an abortion as against any state law or policy seeking to protect the fetus from an abortion not prompted by more compelling reasons of the mother.

With all due respect, I dissent. I find nothing in the language or history of the Constitution to support the Court's judgment. The Court simply fashions and announces a new constitutional right for pregnant mothers [410 U.S. 222] and, with scarcely any reason or authority for its action, invests that right with sufficient substance to override most existing state abortion statutes. The upshot is that the people and the legislatures of the 50 States are constitutionally dissentitled to weigh the relative importance of the continued existence and development of the fetus, on the one hand, against a spectrum of possible impacts on the mother, on the other hand. As an exercise of raw judicial power, the Court perhaps has authority to do what it does today; but, in my view, its judgment is an improvident and extravagant exercise of the power of judicial review that the Constitution extends to this Court.



As far as religion, Kennedy once said : "Whatever issue may come before me as President--on birth control, divorce, censorship, gambling or any other subject--I will make my decision in accordance with these views, in accordance with what my conscience tells me to be the national interest, and without regard to outside religious pressures or dictates. And no power or threat of punishment could cause me to decide otherwise.

But if the time should ever come--and I do not concede any conflict to be even remotely possible--when my office would require me to either violate my conscience or violate the national interest, then I would resign the office; and I hope any conscientious public servant would do the same."

In other words, personal beliefs (i.e. religion) come before public service. I have no doubt that JFK was against a theocracy (as I am and pretty much everyone else is). However:
QUOTE
I believe in an America that is officially neither Catholic, Protestant nor Jewish--where no public official either requests or accepts instructions on public policy from the Pope, the National Council of Churches or any other ecclesiastical source--where no religious body seeks to impose its will directly or indirectly upon the general populace or the public acts of its officials--and where religious liberty is so indivisible that an act against one church is treated as an act against all.
CruisingRam
Yes- but we are talking modern day issues- not issues of the 1960s- and there is no such thing as a "fiscal conservative" in power in the republican party today- they all reside in the Dem party now LOL-

Or are you saying that GW is a fiscal conservative?LOL
ConservPat
JFK would be either a Rockefeller Republican, a Lieberman Democrat or a Libertarian. He's a fiscal conservative, which, unless I've been missing something during the past 200 years, is not a Democratic stance [saying Republicans are fiscally irresponsibe does not, in turn, make you fiscally responsible rolleyes.gif ]...He was hawkish, favored tax cuts, was socially left of center [Peace Corps, Job Corp, etc.] and as Amlord said, used his "conscience" to guide him in some instances...Somehow I think that if GW said something like that, my favorite term, "Christian fundamentalist" would come up...So as I said, he'd be a moderate in either party, or a Libertarian.

The Democratic Party would do the same thing with him as they did with Clinton. He'd be nominated and would run on charisma, not on any platform [which is basically what Kennedy did in the 60's anyway]. Clinton and Kennedy have a bunch of similar traits, so sure, he'd be nominated...But I think he would be exposed as all charm, no content.

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Eeyore
I think JFK was a classic Liberal. I think today he would be considered to the left of his party. He would be hawkish but not necessarily on board for the present foreign policy.

He would be tainted for being a Massachusetts liberal and his politics today would generally be conservative, in the sense of trying to conserve the core elements of the FDR/LBJ liberal programs.
christopher
I also think JFK was a classic Liberal. And I think today he would be considered to the left of his party--the Republican Party.
I don't think he would get a very warm reception from the Left in todays climate and mindset. he would probably be as well recieved as lieberman ( L-I-E-B-E-R-M-A-N ) is these days.
Honestly, If you remove the pandering to the religious right i think and bush and JFK are not that far off from each other.
I mean c'mon bay of Pigs and Iraq...... hmmm.gif
Tax cuts for business--and remember JFK did his because he believed high taxes led to laziness and were too restrictive and caused too much damage(check out Amlord's earlier post:
QUOTE
I'm not talking about a "quickie" or a temporary tax cut, which would be more appropriate if a recession were imminent. Nor am I talking about giving the economy a mere shot in the arm, to ease some temporary complaint. I am talking about the accumulated evidence of the last five years that our present tax system, developed as it was, in good part, during World War II to restrain growth, exerts too heavy a drag on growth in peace time; that it siphons out of the private economy too large a share of personal and business purchasing power; that it reduces the financial incenitives [sic] for personal effort, investment, and risk-taking. In short, to increase demand and lift the economy, the federal government's most useful role is not to rush into a program of excessive increases in public expenditures, but to expand the incentives and opportunities for private expenditures.


Personally i think a Democrat that did an almost complete copy of JFK could probably run very well in the South. I wouldn't go so far as to say sweep it, but I would be confident in predicting taking half.
Eeyore
QUOTE(christopher @ Dec 13 2005, 08:09 PM)

Personally i think a Democrat that did an almost complete copy of JFK could probably run very well in the South. I wouldn't go so far as to say sweep it, but I would be confident in predicting taking half.
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As long as it wasn't JFK himself.
After Cuban Americans Southerners that lived through the JFK years (here I am referring to White Southerners) are among the most anti-JFK people I have ever met.

In Philadelphia, Anniston, Birmingham, and Oxford the local officials sincerely didn't appreciate the intervention of the federal government.

If he were JFK but from Arkansas, say, I could see him taking it.
He was a moderate then. He was a good politician. He would likely be a force in the national party today.
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CruisingRam
Well let's say first say- there can be hawkish liberals (lieberman) and dovish conservatives (buchanan)- so just whether you are hawkish or dovish doesn't really make you a liberal or conservative- all resemblance of "fiscal conservative" went right out the door with Reagan- really, a watershed movement in the rocket scientest conservative vs the religious right conservative- and JFK would have certainly NOT be a conservative by todays religious right conservative definition that is the paramount leader of that movement now. In all reality, we have not had a "fiscal" conservative in office EXCEPT GH bush and Clinton.

You know- deficits are bad and all that- something that Reagan threw right out the window?

Ya- conservativism no longer has anything to do with the economic definitions- it is all about restricting the rights of gays and forcing the nations non-christian and non-religious to conform to thier own pecurliar brand of morality.

I don't think JFK would do well in todays religious right dominated Republican party.
ConservPat
CrusingRam, I'm struggling here. Just because fiscal liberals and religious rightists CALL THEMSELVES conservative does not mean that conservative's definition has changed...it just means that they aren't conservatives. You can make the case that fiscal conservatism is dead in both major parties, but not in the conservative ideology...that's a bit of a stretch. And in saying that, that is just more proof that Kennedy would feel more at home in a party to the right, most likely the Libertarians, though I can see him as a Republican Liberty Caucus Republican as well.

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CruisingRam
QUOTE(ConservPat @ Dec 14 2005, 01:43 PM)
CrusingRam, I'm struggling here.  Just because fiscal liberals and religious rightists CALL THEMSELVES conservative does not mean that conservative's definition has changed...it just means that they aren't conservatives.  You can make the case that fiscal conservatism is dead in both major parties, but not in the conservative ideology...that's a bit of a stretch.  And in saying that, that is just more proof that Kennedy would feel more at home in a party to the right, most likely the Libertarians, though I can see him as a Republican Liberty Caucus Republican as well.

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Because the reality it the religiouis right has 110% control over the republican party- the term "conservative" has been redifined by the MAJORITY of those that consider them "conservative" in a manner that no longer is about fiscal responsibility- but rather a type of religious extremist ideal of goverment but with a christian twist.

When Ronald Reagan was considered a "conservative" despite the being the biggest deficit spender of all time (until this guy we have now) - he basically redifined conservativism to be about "family values" (this from a divorcee that did not speak to some of his kids for years- a horrible family man) - you know, gay marriage- moral majority (single handedly giving the country a new hero in Jerry Falwel) - they basically left the old gaurd conservative of JFK's time such as Barry Goldwater.

This is the reality- just look at the campaign tactics of the conservatives today ( and dems have thier own low tactics- I am more pointing out the religious overtones vs the economic overtones) - where they claimed John Kerry would make the bible illegal? - had they been true conservatives- they would have "scared" more poeple with GWs awesome economic plans vs Kerry's weak tax and spend liberal stuff LOL

The bottom line is- today's conservative ideals are nothing like the day of JFK's, and to be fair- it was also the true Golden age of Liberalism- and really, liberalism from FDR to JFKs death was what was "classic liberalism"- and time of our own golden age as well.

JFK, in reality, like probably many folks from that era, would be dismayed at the idea of airing "dirty laundry" like we do today- oh sure, there were nasty campaigns, but they certainly haven't reached the level it is today- and JFK's cheating certainly would be a problem for him in either party today.
Rancid Uncle
Were JFK currently 40 and running as he did in his day would he today be a Liberal a Conservative or a Centrist? Well, I think JFK was a liberal. If you look at his beliefs they would place him right in the liberal range. But also some of the things he said have been pretty liberal. For example when he accepted the New York Liberal Party Nomination in 1960 he said,
QUOTE
I consider myself to be a "Liberal,"


Would today's Democratic party even nominate him and could he win that nomination?
In the current paradigm Kennedy might a slightly too liberal to win the nomination but I would like to think he would. Kennedy knew how to cut through the politcal mudslinging game and speak directly to the people. That takes charisma and a certain type of courage. But then again, I'm not sure if today Kennedy could win. If I had to pick the Kennedy of the present day, it would be Barrack Obama and nobody is talking about Obama in 2008.
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