It's not exactly a cheery subject, but the apparent suicide of James Dungy, the 18-year-old son of football coach Tony Dungy of the Indianapolis Colts, has shaken the sports world. It is a grim reminder that during this season of happiness and joy there are many people who succumb to "the dark night of the soul" and decide to end their life.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/foot...n.ap/index.html

Why?

I cannot understand what it would take to drive a young man to kill himself. I can't begin to know what demons could drive someone to prefer the finality of death over the possibility of life.

I have a friend who twice attempted to commit suicide when she was a teenager. Once she took a overdose of pills and the second time she sat in a bathtub and slit her wrists. The scars are visible on her wrists to this day. The scars on her psyche are not as visible.

To this day, she looks upon the act of suicide as a dignified alternative than wasting away from a crippling disease or slipping into a degenerative mental state.

I see it as a permanent solution to a temporary situation. But what do I know?

The questions for debate:

1. Under what circumstance(s) would suicide be preferable to you than life?

2. Do you know anyone that committed suicide or tried to?

3. It seems to take a "celebrity" to get our attention about people taking their own lives. Is the act of suicide a underreported problem?

1. Under what circumstance(s) would suicide be preferable to you than life?

I don't know if I would ever. i might say that if I ever got seriously ill and the pain was incredible or the disease was a slow wasting one that left me trapped inside myself I would.

but I don't think i would. I am not religious and honestly never consider the afterlife or if there is or isn't one. I am however terminally optimistic--even as sarcastic and cynical as I admittedly am.
Take full body paralysis--they actually have a chip now that implants in the frontal lobe and allows you to move a cursor across the screen--so at the least you can communicate. Sure its not on the market now but really how much longer?
I have read the most amazing results of some of the spinal repair stuff they are having success with--sure Superman never walked again and then Died. But really--how much longer before they at least return some control--I'd believe not much longer and definetely in my life time.


The ones who do so because of some type of emptiness in their soul or love unrequited

At the very least i would recommend trying religion. It seems to work for a lot of people and helps them find whatever it is they cannot find on their own. Sense of purpose or the belief that at least one person out there loves you -- So if you need that give it a try. life is too much of a miracle --and this comes from a cynical sarcastic atheist who questions everything. never give up cause it always gets better.
I have been on top and I have been on a park bench. It always gets better.

Love

Are they really worth it? I mean REALLY sure they might feel guilty for a little while --but they'll get over it and you'll still be DEAD
think about it.
They WILLget over you.
and then the only ones still affected are the ones who really love you and they are now hurt for life. If you're really that shallow it might be the clue you need to undertand why they left you. How Dull.

Again try religion at the very least--or get a puppy. Unconditional love remember.


2. Do you know anyone that committed suicide or tried to?
Yes and their family to this day is a shell and sad to see. Imagine life with no color.


3. It seems to take a "celebrity" to get our attention about people taking their own lives. Is the act of suicide a underreported problem?
I think in the end Human Beings are optimists. Inside out heart of hearts we all believe that not only will it get better, but that it was always supposed to be better and somehow we got lost.

I worked for a short time as a Deputy in a small rural County in Nebraska. The time I spent in Law Enforcement was during the Farm Crisis in the late 70's early 80's.

During the 18 months of duty I investigated 6 suicides, one of which was the Husband of an ex High School Girlfriend. The Horror that a suicide puts a family through is incredible. I wake up at night remembering, not so much the suicide scene, but the faces of the loved ones that I had to go tell the news to.

After witnessing this first hand, answering the question "under what circumstances would you commit suicide" is easy:

The circumstance, for me to commit suicide, simply does not exist.

Can I understand why these, mostly good, hardworking farmers committed suicide? Not really, but when the song "Rain on the scarecrow" came out, it at least tempered my anger toward them for forcing me to be the bearer of the worse possible news.

Under what circumstance(s) would suicide be preferable to you than life?

I guess if I had a terminal illness that put me in a position where I was living
a pitiful existence and a huge burden on my family. Or if I was in so much
pain that I couldn't bear it any longer. The only other scenario that I can think
of that would drive me to that emotional solution would be the loss of my children.
I think all parents will feel me on this one. I cannot imagine a life without my
kids and I wouldn't want to live.

Do you know anyone that committed suicide or tried to?

Yes I do. When I was in high school I knew a guy who was the sweetest and
nicest person. He was very handsome and intelligent, and was sought after by
many girls. I don't remember him ever dating. Years later, I learned that he
had killed himself. I believe it was because he was homosexual and couldn't
come to terms with it. He was nineteen when he ended his life.

Also, my mom has a friend who suffered from depression, on and off, for years.
He finally got himself on anti-depressants, and within months he took his life.
How's that for treating emotional problems with drugs.

It seems to take a "celebrity" to get our attention about people taking their
own lives. Is the act of suicide a underreported problem?

That's a good question. I guess it's one of those issues that is tough to think
about or even talk about.

1. Under what circumstance(s) would suicide be preferable to you than life?

If I was carrying around some deep dark secret that ate at me night and day to the point where I just hated myself I might consider death to life as a way of erasing all the shame, I pray to God I will never do anything that makes me hate myself as I have seen others do.

Also I would definitly consider suicide under instead of pain of torture from some sort of enemy, any searches done con signifigance, perhaps with a major defeat in war if I were a great General.. Of course these are wildly absurd circumstances but I can't say that they might never happen, especially with my penchant for traveling to far off places.

2. Do you know anyone that committed suicide or tried to?

Yes. I'm sure everyone knows someone or knows someone, who knows someone. It can be incredibly painful depending on how close you were, but in the end people move on.

3. It seems to take a "celebrity" to get our attention about people taking their own lives. Is the act of suicide a underreported problem?

Death is incredibly private in our culture and suicide is incredibly shameful to people's families, it's not exactly something you wanna go around talking about. Nor is it something I care to hear about in the news regularly. It's very private and should remain that way.

My heart goes out to the boys family. So sorry to have to hear of someone rocked by this kind of revelation only days before Christmas. Few things could be worse.

1. Under what circumstance(s) would suicide be preferable to you than life?

Tough question. I suppose if I were diagnosed with a terminal illness that destroyed the quality of my life, I would consider it. Or if I were losing my mind; I think that would be worse than any physical disease.

I find Virginia Woolf’s last words to be poignant in that regard:

2. Do you know anyone that committed suicide or tried to?

Several, including an attempt by a family member (though it was prior to my birth).

Oddly, the one that knocked me for a loop was a guy I had dated briefly after my divorce. The breakup was still too raw for me to be dating, so it didn’t work out, but we parted on friendly terms. The mutual friend who had set us up told me one day that after charging all his credit cards to the limit buying things for his young daughter, he checked into a motel with a gun and shot himself. The housekeeper found him still alive, but barely, and he died shortly after. Turns out he had inoperable stomach cancer.

The weirdest one was an artist I spent a wild and crazy weekend with in San Francisco (an unrelated and irrelevant factoid: he had an uncanny resemblance to David Bowie). We were at his friends’ house chatting, and I don’t know how the subject of suicide came up, but it did, and he pulls up his sleeves and shows these long, nasty vertical scars from his wrist to his elbow. Freaked me out.

3. It seems to take a "celebrity" to get our attention about people taking their own lives. Is the act of suicide a underreported problem?

I believe it is. Adolescent suicides in particular. Why do so many young people think life isn’t worth living? I think a big part of the problem is the lingering social stigma that mental illness still has. No one wants to be diagnosed as “crazy”, or are ashamed of being seen as "weak", so a lot of treatable mental illnesses go untreated. I think that stigma also attaches itself to other precipitators of suicide; marital problems, domestic violence, all kinds of abuse, sexual identity issues, social acceptance, substance abuse, financial difficulties. I think a lot could be accomplished if we didn’t just have to be so damn perfect all the time! If our society was more tolerant...

Something I found surprising is that the notion (guilty of believing this myself) that suicides increase during the holidays is false! I could relate to that notion, with all the forced cheer, family tension, excessive drinking, etc. etc., but it seems not to be so. Source: Snopes (But a Japanese study did find that suicide rates went up after a holiday.)

1. Under what circumstance(s) would suicide be preferable to you than life?
I can be all sure of myself and say that I would never commit suicide because I have been through tough times and know what the other side looks like. But having gone through some dark days, I know that what I went through was not nearly as bad as what others have or might have gone through. I honestly don't know what I would do in a situation that looked medically hopeless, for example. I don't think I would because I seek out experiences, but I just don't know.

2. Do you know anyone that committed suicide or tried to?
Yes, a woman I knew committed suicide almost on her mother-in-law's front lawn, and it drove her surviving children and husband into despair. I have never gotten the whole story (straight), and it was about ten years ago. The children are still hollow-eyed.

3. It seems to take a "celebrity" to get our attention about people taking their own lives. Is the act of suicide a underreported problem?
I'm sure it is. According to some friends of mine who live there, the reason that Sweden's suicide rate is so high is because suicides actually get reported as suicides over there.

It seems like it takes a celebrity to get our attention about anything.

1. Under what circumstance(s) would suicide be preferable to you than life?

There was a time when I was in my twenties that I considered it very seriously. Although it was never diagnosed in me, I think it was due to a postpartum depression that was never adequately dealt with. At the time, I wanted to escape from a life situation I considered untenable.

2. Do you know anyone that committed suicide or tried to?

Yes, both actually. The one who tried is still alive and wouldn't consider it now, even though she has gone through some very rough times (including a life-threatening illness) since then.

The other one, who did commit suicide, was very close to me. It was extremely hard for me and the rest of the family. I felt betrayed, and I wondered if there was something I could have done to have stopped it. His favorite song was "Don't Fear the Reaper." To this day, I hate that song.

3. It seems to take a "celebrity" to get our attention about people taking their own lives. Is the act of suicide a underreported problem?

It doesn't take a celebrity for us to focus on suicide. At least it doesn't for me. But I do think that it still is not talked about a lot due to the feelings I described in answer #2. I nullified my vote, because I feel that I would not commit suicide under any circumstances, but the thought might still be a problem under some very difficult circumstances.

About carrying a guilt that one poster referred to, I do not believe that is necessary. My faith, Catholicism, provides for confessing sins or wrongs to a priest who keeps them confidential. The criterion for confession is feeling sorry for what one has done wrong and seeking forgiveness. There is a penance (something to help right that wrong--or at least to bring peace to the penitent's mind if the wrong cannot be rectified for the person wronged) prescribed by the priest, and absolution is granted to a person who is truly sorry and wants to be forgiven by God. I have found peace in the sacrament of reconciliation, which this is called.


Protestants (and anybody else) can confess their sins and wrongdoings directly to God (as can Catholics, for that matter). It is a matter of what is going to help you more.

But if you're feeling at the end of your rope, tell somebody. Sometimes it helps just to get some perspective from someone else. A lot of times depression has to do with a brain chemistry imbalance. The time is past for it to be dismissed as some kind of character flaw.

Edit: A person who is seriously ill and feels worthless because of it needs to consider that his/her illness often brings out the best in people around them, qualities that wouldn't otherwise come out. In this way, the ill person can actually improve life for others. Otherwise selfish people have found within themselves a compassion and determination to do good when someone close to them is suffering. In that sense, suffering does have a purpose. Whether suffering is God's will or not is beyond my comprehension (although I tend to think that suffering is not God's will), but my faith tells me that good things can and do come out of virtually any bad situation.

1. I can think of all kinds of nightmarish scenarios where I would consider punching my own ticket preferable to living a life of misery, pain and loss. If anything were to happen to my wife and children I might prefer death to life. Then again, I still have enough religious teaching in me to fear burning in hell for the sin of killing myself.

Then again, I have seen film and photos of people jumping from the inferno of the World Trade Center on September 11. When faced with two horrible ways to die--burnt alive or smashed by a plummet off a skyscraper---which horrible way would I choose? Perhaps the one that promised the quickest end and least pain.

Then again, I recall vividly how my mother lost her health, her dignity and finally her life in a slow slide in a senior "care" facility after suffering a crippling stroke. A life without the hope for a better tomorrow is not one I would wish to live. I'm no Dr. Kervorkian, but there's something to be said about punching your own ticket rather that wasting away flat on your back drugged, delirious and doing your business in an adult diaper.


2. It's hard to grow up and not know someone who took their own life. It's usually because they had a secret they couldn't share or deal with. Maybe they couldn't come out of the closet. Sometimes it's because they've been physically or sexually abused by a father or husband. Of course, there are times when you can't think of a single reason to get your butt out of bed and face the new day. So you don't. You write a suicide note about 20 pages long, swallow a bunch of pills and hope they find your body before the flies and maggots do.

I read an article on how the Golden Gate Bridge is a |"suicide magnet." Maybe because the grandeur of the bridge is such a compelling contrast to the ugliness of self-destruction.

The Golden Gate Bridge is the world's No. 1 suicide magnet, in part because it makes suicide so easy. People jump and kill themselves there, an average of 19 a year. In the peak year, 1977, there were 40 suicides. Some dive not expecting obscurity or oblivion but a kind of grace -- a welcoming body of water that inducts the jumper into nature.

"I'd heard the water just sweeps you under," Ken Baldwin of Angels Camp in Calaveras County, who survived his jump in 1985, told the New Yorker magazine.

In fact, there's nothing peaceful in a jump from the bridge. Once a person dives, depending on where he or she jumps, the body plummets 240 to 250 feet in four seconds, traveling about 75 mph, and hits the water with the force of a speeding truck meeting a concrete building. Some die instantly from extensive internal injuries; others drown in their own blood.

The jump is fatal 98 percent of the time. The Chronicle's research indicates that at least 1,218 suicides were reported between the time the bridge opened, on May 27, 1937, and this past Friday. Local mental health experts believe that number could be higher, considering the suicides who jump and go undetected, their bodies floating out to sea.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c...MNG2NFF7KI1.DTL

3. Anyone remember when Andy Rooney dissed Kurt Cobain after he committed suicide? The sad, unhappy fact that Cobain had exactly the worst personality to cope with the demands of fame didn't seem to matter to Rooney. There is a lot of shame, suspicion and rumor that floats around when someone famous dies at their own hand. There's a buzz to it for awhile and then it kind of fades away until the next one.

How many old people who die alone in their homes kill themselves? That kind of story never makes the news unless it's a murder-suicide. If suicide remains a place we don't want to go to, it's partially because we understand so little of the reasons that drive someone to take their own life.

The death of James Dungy is not going to change that.

1.) None. Life is far too important to lose or voluntarily take. I will never condemn another's choice but certainly I would mourn their passing and never accept the reality of their choice/weakness.

2.) Yes I do.

3.) It sure is a problem and it seems to be glorified when a celebrity ends their life. Other than the romantic outlook on it that some mediums are conveying, I would say that it is no more a problem that it has been since time began.

I wouldn't classify that as exactly suicide, at least not in the classic sense, and especially not like in the Dungy case. It's a bit like a bleeding scuba diver choosing to attempt to get to the surface before his air runs out even though he has to swim through a school of sharks.

The death doesn't leave loved ones behind asking "why?"



I can almost guarantee this. I suspected several times that Law Enforcement, in neighboring counties reported a few as Hunting Accidents to save the family the stigma.

1. None.

2. Yes.

3. The act of suicide is the ultimate selfish act. Bar none. Those who consider it should try a tactic of reversing the self obsession that got them thinking that way in the first place. They should volunteer to help others. Donate. Engage in charity. Anything to change the focus from their own miserable lives to helping someone else. And, maybe, just maybe, they will find that they are not so miserable after all. In this day and age there are effective therapies for pain. There is a plethora of mental health care providers. There is ALWAYS another day.

The act of suicide an ultimate act of selfishness? People who are manically depressed or completely hit rockbottom should volunteer to help others, through donations? I am really offended by this simplistic view. It seems that you really do not know what it is like for these people just to make it through another day. Its obvious that, luckily, you never been in such a desparate situation.

Nobody wants to kill himself, but for some people life is just too hard to cope with. I had an aunt who committed suicide by jumping in front of a train. She was the kindest and nicest woman I have ever known, but she just couldn´t cope with the harsh reality of her life and all the mean and dishonest people living in it. There is not one day that I do not think about her and it makes me deeply sad when I realize how much she must have suffered in her life. Never ever judge people who committed suicide. Mourn for them and realize the unbelievable pain that drove these people to such an act.

Suicide is painless, as the tune goes.

Ever wonder about the strange traffic accidents that happen? Had one here where a little pickup went head-on into a semi, no apparent reason. I bet a lot of suicides are masked in traffic fatality stats.

Colorado has a high rate of suicide, nobody seems to know why. Over this past year there were two that I know about close by, both involving a parent taking their kids lives first, and both were tied to economic problems in the family. When we're happy, or at least okay, with the way things go in life, it's pretty hard to understand. From what I've experienced with this, two things have to be present:

Hopelessness and depression.

Chemical imbalances in the brain can bring on clinical depression, and that might lead to suicide if untreated, and as I imagine, something traumatic happens like the loss of a loved one -- spouse, child, maybe parent -- someone so close as to be a part of self. So let's add a third:

Psychological pain.

Yep, it's all in your head, isn't it. Pain that is. Cut the nerves, no more pain. Certain drugs block the pain, others produce pleasure, some do both. Our brains respond to chemicals either produced in the body or at the drug factory.

Another way to do suicide is slowly, as in drinking or mething oneself to death. Doing risky things can be another way, and that would be having a death wish. But then, life leads inevitably to death, so there are degrees to taking on risk. Some are necessary, others borderline, and then there's the full tilt boogey with the Grim Reaper. For me, jumping out of a perfectly good airplane is over the edge. Others find it to be fun sport, and others do it for a living (airborne).

Attempted suicide is, and I'm pretty sure stats back this up, usually a cry for help. Serious suicide is more efficiently done (shotgun blast to the head and the such) and is done to get the hell out. I find it difficult to judge serious suicide as selfish. What reward is the person getting, other than release from pain so severe that I can't possibly have a clue? Except I do, an amount anyway. Enough to suspend my judgement.

Danny Gatton, a legendary guitarist from the 1950s, blew himself away with a shotgun. So did Ernest Hemingway. These guys were serious about leaving this Earth, but I doubt they expected any type of reward. Without reward, can we say that someone is being selfish? The death leaves pain for others to work through, that's for sure. Any kind of death does. Was it selfish for my parents to die, my brother, my sister? Hey, they might have gotten rewards too, but I can't say any of their deaths were selfish. Still, each one left its measure of pain for those of us left behind to deal with.

Yep, welcome to life. It starts out in pain and ends in pain, with doses of pain along the way. Obviously for most people, they can endure the pain. Otherwise, there'd be nobody here. Other people don't do so well for a bunch of reasons. Some die as a part of their sport or profession, or just driving around, and we don't consider these suicides usually. But they could be.

Bottom line: Suicide is far more common than we'd like to believe. Clever people can mask it, others don't give a damn, and I suppose a few want to get their names on the news. I would call that insanity. Oh, another possible motivation is martyrdom. Mostly though, I see it happening from overwhelming psychological pain, hopelessness and depression. I've been close a few times, but apparently not close enough because I am writing this.

BLAM! No, just kidding. It's really not a joking matter, except if you're Penn or Teller. website

One other thing, and that's figuring out a reason to live. I think that's highly important beyond expecting life to hand a reason over. Some are automatic, like having kids. Others have to be sought out. One thing that has worked for me is taking on a study that lasts forever, like music. Computers fit in there too, as do motorcycles somehow. Or is that my death wish No, I do believe the death wish is in computers while oncall.

Yet another: Copping an attitude helps, as Winona sings about. It's the true Blues. Don't let the crumb-bums [one more cute attempt at profanity AM, and it's coal in your stocking! - SC ] get you down.

I would have to say country music of course

TO be serious on the subject, I would have to say there is no single cause of suicide. More or less suicide can happen to anyone anywhere it seems like, or that history has proven that. I would say like so many problems in general its most likely stress related.

Except that it isn't. The person whom I mentioned in my previous post took an overdose of prescription medication. He didn't just "fall asleep." His body was found in a small patch of woods. There were multiple scratches on him from his flailing in the brambles. The autopsy ruled that he died from aspiration pneumonitis: choking on his own vomit.

The time of death comes for all of us; of this we are certain. It is a tragedy when people decide to end their lives because life has somehow become unbearable. AuthorMusician, I appreciate the sentiment about not letting the crum-bums get you down. And you're right; we'll never know how many auto accidents and people failing to stop running away from police officers in pursuit were actually out to kill themselves.

Suicidal people are ill. Their perspective is so narrow that they are unable in many cases to see alternatives to their destructive actions, and they often labor under the delusion that nobody cares for them.

It seems to me that it would take a person who is well-insulated from the rest of the world to only be cognizant of someone else's suicide because it comes on the news. Sometimes it takes a lot of courage to just hang on, but there are still surprises, good ones, and blessings in this world when we do.

The questions for debate:

1. Under what circumstance(s) would suicide be preferable to you than life?

If a change in the law forced me to annul my current marriage and return to living with my ex-wife...

2. Do you know anyone that committed suicide or tried to?

I was raised to believe in the privacy of the ballot box. My parents voted in every election. Nonetheless, they not only never told us who they had voted for, discussion of politics was a taboo subject in the house. (My older brother ran for President of his High School Senior class, but was told to stay after school and manufacture his campaign posters there. I know he lost, but I never heard by what margin.)

Nonetheless, I voted "5. I would never commit suicide." as it was closeest to the non-existent option of, I can't imagine at this point that I would attempt it again...

A couple of decades back, co-workers, a supervisor, and one of the corporate shrinks all told me that I needed to "talk to someone in the psychology dept." Anyone who said "Good Morning" to me got growled at, (GOOD MORNING IS AN OXYMORON!) and I worked hard at avoiding human contact on the way to my office in the morning. I arrived after a power outage one morning, noticed my clock was off by several hours, and did what one did to set a clock 20 years ago. I reached for the phone and dialed time. The recording had been changed overnight. It began, "Good Morning, at the tone..."

I borrowed someone else's phone to call my boss and explain that I had proven that a concrete wall was more durable than my telephone. He placed me on hold, got ahold of the Psychology dept., found a therapist willing to clear her schedule for the day, and drove me there...

As we talked; she assured me that as a diabetic, not only were the amount of donuts and banana splits I ate likely to kill me, but appeared to her to be a suicide attempt... Over a period of months, I came to accept her prognosis, and I finally filed for divorce.

I met a young woman in church a few weeks later on her first full day in the city. (She was to start a new job on Monday.) She persuaded me to stop smoking with a single statement, "I don't date smokers." On Monday morning, I discussed having met her with my therapist. I was told that I should find the young woman and talk further with her. "If she can accomplish that in a single conversation, you're wasting both my time and yours by talking to me." So, I walked back to church after school, checked the guest register to see how to reach her, walked out to her apartment to leave a note, and she surprised me by opening the door. She has often told me that my impact on her was comparable. We have known each other for nearly 19 years now, and been married for nearly 18 years. Hope is something that she gives me on a daily basis. I tend to eat one or two banana splits a year now insted of at least one daily...

3. It seems to take a "celebrity" to get our attention about people taking their own lives. Is the act of suicide an underreported problem?

The act of suicide is probably an underreported problem...

A coroner will most likely rule a death anything else if possible, because a ruling of suicide generally negates insurance policies, impacts survivors, and even limits the option of where the body can be buried. There is anecdotal evidence that in countries that had capital punishment, people would commit murder, confess to a priest, obtain absolution, and then confess to the police. "God will forgive a murderer his sins, but not a suicide."

Attempted suicide, I have been told was once a capital offense...

A "celebrity" suicide is not as apt to get my attention, by the way, as an attempt by a friend or an acquaintance. One memorable poem, which I heard a poet read decades ago, dealt with his decision to attempt suicide. He was standing on a bridge, ready to jump, when a policeman told him that he was attempting to jump off the wrong side of the bridge. "All of the successful attempts have been made from the other side of the bridge." He went to the library to confirm that the policeman was not lying to him, and learned that at the time, every successful attempt at suicide by jumping off The Golden Gate Bridge, had been made from the other side of the bridge. Every Sunday morning, I get a poem e-mailed to me from him. He is currently in his 7th year of a battle with cancer, and fighting to continue living.

When you step back from a decision to attempt suicide; even for a moment, one often discovers that your problems had a solution, and that life is worth taking the chance to live.

1. Under what circumstance(s) would suicide be preferable to you than life?

I have occasionally wished that I were not alive, mainly because I am a socially inept, habitual hermit, with almost no ambition whatsoever. Non-existence doesn't bother me, and the main complicating factor as far as committing suicide goes for me, is how it will effect the people I know. I'm in some ways very popular/well known at the school I go to, and therefore, me dieing would likely upset a lot of people. I have therefore opted, to put off making a final decision on this, until I am 18, and have graduated. People in my class, and the classes above me, will be moving on with their lives, and thus I probably won't hurt them to much. People not moving on, will at least not have to stare at an empty seat. Hurting my parents and relatives is of course unavoidable. suicide contains a lot of hurtful symbolism, so I may try to make it look like an accident. Only problem there is, I want my college money to go to charity, it would be difficult to make that clear, without making it clear that my death was intentional?

Anyways, enough rambling....

Hopefully, i'll solve my problems before i'm 18, and therefore won't have to do any of the above.

2. Do you know anyone that committed suicide or tried to?

I knew a girl who cut herself once. Never quite learned why though. She was (when I knew her) rather emotionally unstable. Every now and then, she would come into the special ed room, inexplicably crying.

3. It seems to take a "celebrity" to get our attention about people taking their own lives. Is the act of suicide a underreported problem?

If it was reported more often, people maybe might be nicer to outcasts...

Dude, you need help. You have ambition. Unfortunately, it's seriously misplaced.

I'm not qualified to give medical advice, but in my opinion, you need to seek professional help. Now.

1. I have come to the conclusion that suicide is an ethically acceptable choice when one is experiencing extreme suffering which cannot be treated, and which will end only with death. This excludes almost every kind of strictly emotional pain which I can think of. Emotional pain is either the result of mental illness, which it is possible (if difficult) to treat, or the result of life experiences. We know, from seeing human beings who have survived horrors beyond our imagining, that emotional pain which is not the result of mental illness can become bearable, with time and support from others. We also know that some physical diseases result in extreme suffering which will not respond to any treatment, and that the patient will never experience anything but extreme suffering until death ends it. Under such circumstances, I cannot condemn those who choose to end their lives, nor those who assist them.

2. No. I am very lucky.

3. Yes. Here is one sad example.

Link



For a left Handed person:

I hope you will listen to the words of one who has always been socially inept and a loner.

I know what a living hell high school can be for those of us who are more sensitive than others might be to social rejection. The fact that you tell us that you are popular in some ways proves that there is good reason for hope.

High school ends. I would never suggest that your pain is not real, or that it is not serious. However, I can tell you that time, although it does not heal all wounds, makes them bearable.

You have my best wishes.

What's wrong with being a hermit?

But seriously, all the "problems" that you just listed can be addressed. If you want to learn to play golf or play tennis, do you just "wish" it to be so and suddenly gain those talents?

You need to get out there and practice. Hit some balls. Miss some shots. Take a few risks. And you know what? It gets easier and easier to hit the ball the more you practice. Why? Because EVERYONE else shares many of the same insecurities that you do.

I know that when you're under 18, a year is a significant amount of time. You are changing rapidly and 1 year represents a significant percentage of your non-child life. But a year really isn't that long. It gets shorter as you get older. Be a little patient. Rome wasn't built in a day. People can't change overnight. Your perspective will change as you grow older.

Look at the bright side. Your life can be incredibly rich down the road if you follow a path of growth and discovery. The saddest thing is a person who has seen and done it all and who is jaded. Nothing excites them anymore. If you've not gotten out much, haven't experienced many people or circumstances, look at all the upside that you potentially have in the future!

Look at me. I was once a painfully shy, socially inept, physically unattractive, massively insecure nerd. After decades of effort, I'm not shy anymore.

My advice is to start focusing on something beyond yourself. It may be a "cause". It may be people less fortunate than yourself. It may be others with similar interests. What you will find when you do that is (1) people are pretty similar and most suffer from the same things that ail you and (2) the more you reach out to others, the more people will return the favor. It's a win-win situation in many cases.

Keep your chin up. I'm sure you'll do fine.

PE,

Yep, agreed. On the suicide is painless thing, the song is about psychological pain, where physical pain is not only irrelevant, it might be a welcomed reminder of being alive. I've had the will to live knocked back into me a few times along the way. There is no cure better for suicidal thinking than getting royally ticked off, at least for me. Dang crummies!

I think that's to say the psychological pain never exceeded the physical. Our aversion to physical pain is normal, and when that aversion goes away, we are sick puppies indeed. I don't think we've found the aspirin for heartache yet, not the pill that takes the pain away. The pills we have only mask the pain, probably because, and I'm really getting out on a limb here, the pain is in the soul, not the mind or body.

So with this consideration, would suicide actually be painless, or would the soul carry the pain onward, unresolved? While I'm out here on this limb swaying in the breeze, what the heck. It is so. There is no easy way out.

PS: Hey, where'd these bags of helium come from? Up and away in my beautiful baloon

1. Under what circumstance(s) would suicide be preferable to you than life? If I were so sick that life was unbearable or painful.

2. Do you know anyone that committed suicide or tried to?
Yes.

My brother in-law's mother and a close family friend. My brother in-law's mother was severely depressed and had been in and out of the hospital. It happened just after she had been released.

The family friend was 23 years old. The one year anniversary is coming up and I am still broken up about this..


3. It seems to take a "celebrity" to get our attention about people taking their own lives.
Is the act of suicide a underreported problem?
Call me a pessimist but I don't see even a celebrity suicide as helping draw enough attention. People (generally) will read the story, think how sad, and forget about it.

A left Handed person Please talk to someone. There are people who care about you.

I have very little computer access time (traveling, right now staying with the in-laws and their house is undergoing renovation), but i wanted to address this one briefly.

1. Under what circumstance(s) would suicide be preferable to you than life?

If I had a terminal illness with a lot of pain and a non-existent quality of life, I would probably end it if I could. Otherwise, I can't think of a reason, aside from some sort of catastrophic loss (such as Doomed mentioned).

2. Do you know anyone that committed suicide or tried to?

When I was 13, my oldest brother shot himself in the head. There was only one bullet in the chamber, so we assume he played Russian rullet every night until he succeeded.

Later, when I was in college, a close friend of mine shot himself in the head during military basic training, after his girlfriend broke up with him. He didn't die, but injured a part of his brain and is paralysed from the waist down. That happened when he was 18, so he has been paralysed for almost half of his life now.

3. It seems to take a "celebrity" to get our attention about people taking their own lives. Is the act of suicide a underreported problem?

I'm not sure. I very rarely bring up the subject of my brother. Honestly, I think it is underreported because it tends to be a sort of dirty family secret. We don't bring him up in conversation, and haven't in over 20 years. It's as though he never existed, and I think that's the way most (non-famous) families tend to keep it.

I once read about the experiences of an American soldier in a POW camp during the Vietnam war. He spent several years as a prisoner, and sometimes encountered soldiers who would just lie down and decide to die. They wouldn't speak, they wouldn't eat, they just shut down completely. He initially tried to talk them into living, attemting to cheer them up any way he could and provide them with hope. It did't work. Finally, he asked the fellow inmate if he could have his blanket after he was dead. That enraged the man so much, he clung to his blanket and decided to live! I don't think I could ever try that sort of tactic on a suicidal person (I'd be too afraid it would backfire and I'd never forgive myself), but from my own experience with bouts of depression I believe it's a potentially very effective one. Constructively applied, goal-oriented anger has a way of driving out despair.

Grr...my father in law is evicting me from the computer so I can't finish my thoughts....that's all for now.

This is a touchy subject for me. I have been hospitalized twice in my life for clinical depression and have been actively suicidal on a number of occasions in my life. I also have relatives and friends who have committed suicide.

My first experience with suicide was in 1968, when I was three years old, and my beloved maternal stepgrandfather killed himself. Of course, at that age, I wasn't told the manner of his death, but I learned it later on. My mother's birth father had died when I was a tiny baby, so the stepgrandfather was the only one I knew.

The following year, my maternal grandmother stopped taking the medication she was supposed to take for heart disease, and died within weeks. Again, it was a while before I knew she had meant to kill herself.

In the 1980s, I was active in the gay and lesbian community and knew a lot of guys who had AIDS. A handful of them committed suicide rather than die the way they'd seen their friends and lovers go, and having seen that myself, I can't say I blamed them. I lost over two dozen friends to AIDS and ARC, and young people today who only know AIDS as a chronic disease that can be controlled with drugs are lucky they didn't see the days when it was a death sentence, period.

Another gay friend of mine, Matt, killed himself a dozen or so years ago over a failed relationship. He and I worked together and he was heavily closeted. A few days before he killed himself, he had me type and notarize some legal papers for him (at the time, I worked for lawyers) cutting his ex-lover out of his affairs. I thought this was a good sign, only to find a few days later that he'd been 'tying up loose ends.' His funeral was one of the most emotionally shattering experiences I've ever witnessed. His family were devastated. He was a young, very beloved man and he left a lot of broken hearts behind him.

I know that as a Christian, I should probably oppose suicide, having seen the heartache it causes among survivors, but there is just enough secular humanist in me to believe that a person should have ultimate control over his/her own life. Who am I to speak for someone who is, for example, quadriplegic or otherwise severely compromised by disease or injury, or someone who is schizophrenic or severely mentally ill and cannot bear to live another day?

And yet I know that in my worst depths, I am glad no one ever 'gave me permission' to kill myself. I would have missed out on some supremely happy experiences if I'd given in to my despair.

P.S. to "A Left Handed Person" --

I have been in your shoes. I was the outcast of my classes from first grade on through to junior year, when my parents put me in a private school after I told them I was dropping out, period, because I couldn't stand the ostracism and abuse anymore. Like you, I was a hermit and a loner in many ways, some of which I have kept right through to adulthood. I am forty now and have never married or had children, and I believe part of the reason is the way I was treated by other kids, growing up.

The people who are making you an outcast are jerks, period. There will always be people like them in the world and you've just got to learn to ignore them, say the hell with them, and make your own life. Believe it or not, they're as insecure as you are deep down inside -- but at least you have the decency to express your insecurity in ways other than victimizing others.

As others have said, high school does end. Once it's over with, you won't have to see those people again and you can start living life on your own terms as an adult. Dig in your heels, get good grades, and get on with your life. The heck with 'em.

I'll be praying for you. My heart goes out to you, because I surely do know what you're going through.

A left-Handed person: You have every right to be who you are, even if it means not conforming to the attitudes and behaviors of your peers.

It has been mentioned before: We all have times in our lives where we wonder if others would be better off without us. We have times of loneliness and suffer from lack of purpose.

It sounds like you are depressed, especially when you mention having almost no ambition. But just maybe it is because you haven't found what it is that will be the passion of your life! I for one would be a lot happier to read that you will resolve to hang in there for a few decades if necessary to find what that passion is. But don't do it for me or anybody else. Do it for you.

Unless you believe in reincarnation, you live your life just once on this earth. Death will always be there at the end of your life; you don't have to invite it. I am not suggesting that you start to fear the unknown on the other side of the death experience; I am suggesting that you give life a chance until you no longer have that chance and you suffer the fate of every generation before yours.

I will be thinking of you and hoping you will hang in there to see what happens, rather than cutting it short before it gets interesting.

People should just listen to ladytron more often, it makes life so much better

Really. I have had to endure situations that are a constant load of stress, and basically after a bit of having no escape from it you can become depressed or sad at least, or feel rage and or anger. Basically at these points I just generate a bag of tricks to help me deal. Like my job involves a constant amount of labor, and I don’t get to see my wife nearly as much as I would like, or be at home for that matter. These aspects can lead to having negative feelings going on, besides of which stress really just ruins on health, which of course ties into your state of mind.

I think many times, that these situations of stress, over time or from a cumulative point of view are what lead people to ending lives. I have had no such thoughts, but I can witness it basically lead other people to having less then favorable behavior, even becoming violent towards other employees. The big struggles for me is how to dissipate such and not bring it home. Overall, for me again, I find the best strategy is to take the emphasis of the survival of it all, to make it so its not so important, or to remember that there are other ways of it, and that my day to day existence where I work is not life or death for my health and my loved ones.

As it stands, I do not know how many happy people make the choice to off themselves. I will say that most situations in life can be worked out, or gotten away from that does not involve the person fleeing life in the sense of running away from your problems. I have been lucky enough to experience a great majority of what your central nervous system can feel in regards to the human experience, from great loss and sadness to great happiness and fulfillment, within each it is just basically that, its being alive and to me learning how to understand being alive. More or less like touching a flame, and why it burns, I try to live my life that way and its a basic and very successful personally philosophy. If for some reason you start to feel greatly depressed, odds are its something in your life that is causing it, and because you can feel it, you can come to understand what it is, give it a name and deal with it.

I of course will not say this will work for everyone, but it works for me, and day to day, I find a way to keep the smile why not being ignorant of my surroundings, it comes down to your perspective of a great many things that can in a way determine how they come off somatically. The brain is a feeling thing, its also a learning thing.

I do know that people then end their lives, will never know how life will be for them five years down the road, which could be utterly different then it is now, and overall, there are people out there that do care, and would like to help. I avoid at all costs attempting to play that role, simply because its not my place and I don’t understand enough, and could cause more harm then good, but they do exist. I had a friend that was becoming self destructive, got into drugs, did not know how to be responsible with such and began to ruin his life. Eventually he got off that stuff, simply because I was supportive, and I told him to take a vacation, go see the world, it was almost like six months, he spent sometime in California, but now day to day he goes to work, lives life and no longer is buried in a state of self destroy, but of course that is dependent on the persons situation.

Simply stated, here's the proximate problem:

I have bad habits.

This results in me being a socially inept, lazy, careless, habitual isolationist.

Here's improximate problem:

I am in most respects, ambivalent to my problems, I am therefore unable to find the proper intitiative to solve them.

I have plenty of potential, but it is in most areas going to waste. I have intellectual curiosity, a good memory, and an ability to learn things quickly. I however don't apply myself to my schoolwork. I can sing to such a level, that someone has even called me an opera prodigy. I however tend to oversing, and wear out my throat (which is bad if you do it often enough). While my over hyper-activity bother some people, it amuses others. I have a sizable fan base. I have also had my fair share of opportunity with girls. However, I lack the self advocacy to solidify relationships.

And I could go on and on. Anyways, the point is, that I am screwing up life, and death doesn't frighten me. Maybe, i'll shape up, but then again, maybe I won't.

This sounds to me to be almost exactly, word for word, the early day biographies of hundreds of people that went on to become some of the greatest Human Beings that ever walked this planet.

It would be a very boring world if we all looked alike, spoke alike and thought alike. Today you feel out of place, out of step with your peers. Tomorrow that will change, it always does. Life happens, just be ready when it does for you.

1. Under what circumstance(s) would suicide be preferable to you than life?

I really can't answer that question. I've never experienced the type of pain that would really warrant such an act. I mean, that would have to be it -- I would have to be in excruciating pain from which there was no relief.

This is not to say that the thought hasn't crossed my mind. I've been to some pretty low places in my life and... it has crossed my mind. In the end, I've been fortunate enough to realize that things change.

2. Do you know anyone that committed suicide or tried to?

I've known 2 people who committed suicide.

The first was a music producer. After an argument with his wife, he went into his bedroom and shot himself. I have no idea why he decided to do it or what the argument was about.

The second was a club promoter I knew. He had AIDS. The most selfish thing about this suicide was that he asked a mutual friend to come over to his house and keep him company. He took a bottle of sleeping pills and my friend discovered him in the morning.

3. It seems to take a "celebrity" to get our attention about people taking their own lives. Is the act of suicide a underreported problem?

It is a common problem, which is why it is under-reported. It's like crime. You don't hear about every criminal act because they are common occurrences . Only the sensational ones make the news. The same is true here. I'm sure in small towns, suicides make local news... but that's about it -- unless, of course, it's someone famous or related to someone famous.


---------------------------------

A Lefthanded person,

I'm sorry, man... but there isn't a lamer excuse for choosing to end one's own life -- and I've tried to use it myself. You've basically described me at that age in your description of yourself. You're a teenager. Be a teenager. Teenagers screw up their lives daily. At least that's what they believe... either they're screwing it up or their parents are screwing it up -- pick your poison. That's just childhood. Deal. Easy to say - hard to do, I know... but hey.... I don't know what else to tell you. If you're so equanimous about death... try being that way about life -- it's much more interesting that way.

The idea that you would even consider ending your life because you're smart but don't apply yourself is just... it's ridiculous... it's absurd... it's lame. It is an insult to the many perfectly good clinically depressed people who commit suicide because they don't know any better. Apathy is a silly excuse for suicide. It's an easy way to avoid responsibility, is all. "I'll just kill myself... that'll keep me from screwing up my life." Yeah, that's some great logic right there. I know, I've been through that thought process. You are not screwing up your life... you are growing up -- there's a difference.

It's an easy way to avoid responsibility, is all.

My point exactly. Mind you, the above compelled me a while ago, not to think about the aforementioned possible suicide at age 18 to much right now, as the above provides to much of a scapegoat for me to not work harder now. Is this whole thing pathetic? Maybe, and i've never claimed to be worthy of pity, but it more or less comes down to this:

I don't find the prospect of death repulsive, and my life is likely to be an empty one.

In essence, my intellects killed me, in allowing me to form the above rationale, and in being so adept at destroying my worry, and as such my ability to form the drive needed to solve problems.

You've basically described me at that age in your description of yourself.

You had more or less no friends, and didn't care about it?

Friends? Or people I knew. There's a difference. I had very few friends... maybe one real one. However, being an outcast can be a self-fulfilling yet undesired state of existence, I've since found.

I was learning to read Beowulf in Old English and absorbing the Norton Anthology of Poetry at UC Berkeley when I was in the 7th Grade. My teacher handed me Kafka's Metamorphosis in the 5th Grade. I got great test scores in math and science... all without doing much of my homework. I got great SAT scores and still, I ended high school with a 2.53 Grade point average. Apathy. Actually appreciating what I could do with my intellect did not come until I was a couple of years into college.

Your intellect has not killed you. If you believe that your intellect -- in allowing you to accept the prospect of death and to believe your life is going to be empty -- has killed you, then your intellect has only proven to be beyond your ability to understand it -- beyond your wisdom. Which is quite common in young people who have intellects such as your own.

Do not blame your laziness on your intellect -- that is an insult to your intellect. And you have absolutely no idea where you're life is going to head... that's part of life. To claim at your age that your life is going to be an empty one is... well, apart from being a completely normal and understandable sentiment coming from someone of your age and intellect (at least to me)... is still absurd and only goes to show that you ain't as smart as you think you are, buddy. So, don't go trying to be.

Sorry, but the "my genius killed me" argument doesn't fly.


No, it's not pathetic... it's lame and...


good, because you're getting no pity from me. You don't need it.

Friends? Or people I knew. There's a difference. I had very few friends... maybe one real one.

Not to be melodramatic, but that is one more then me. I do have a fair number of people I know, but none that I see outside of school.

However, being an outcast can be a self-fulfilling yet undesired state of existence, I've since found.

Individualism can be a source of pride, but being an outcast means you miss a lot.

Sorry, but the "my genius killed me" argument doesn't fly.

I don't consider myself a genius, and when I refer to my intellect, I really refer to my mind, and with it myself. That was kinda just a side tangent, and it wasn't meant to shift blame from myself.

I reason, that my life is mine to lose, and therefore losing it, is not immoral in itself. True, my death may cause some considerable despair, but I can balance that out by having my college funds given to charity. Sent to the right place at the right time, that could save lives, and as such cancel out the detrimental effects of me dieing.

Generally speaking, I really don't think all that much about this, as (as I previously stated) thinking about it a lot, provides to much of an excuse for not attempting self improvement, as a pre-determined death absolves me from worrying about the consequences of not shaping up.

To claim at your age that your life is going to be an empty one is...

Is perhaps overly deterministic, and yes typical. But I don't believe my situation is typical, as social apathy is very uncommon at my age.

Yes change does occur, but with me it will only occur if it is within myself, and if undergo no major change within the next a year and half (which is a very long period of time for someone my age), there is chance that I never will.

Only if I had tried ever angle possible to solve the problem. If their was a possibility of resolution, you might as well hang in there. Otherwise, death is appropriate.

Personally, I would have to wait until my parents died first. Even if they have their problems, they are really the only people who have cared about me up until this point.

Never

Because suicide is so common, it naturally because less of a news article. When a celebirity dies, that is such an oddity. Reporters investigate reasons for the celeberties choice etc. and it becomes a huge news article. Because suicides are common, it isn't special and therefore doesn't make headlines.

Just a fact of life.

Well, if everything you said is correct before, I'm you in about a year and a half. And man, does it not get easier. I can only tell you to try everything you can. It seems utterly pointless, I know, but you have to try. If you can overcome this hurdle, you can overcome anything.

It's my toy, so I can destroy it if I want to. Sounds like a similar thought, but a life is soooo much more precious than an I-Pod or an X-box or Battle Bots.



If you don't like not having a good friend, you can make one. It does, however, involve some time on your part devoted to the friendship. The fact that you feel you are friendless at this time can certainly be remedied--by you. Caring about somebody else is a good way to start a friendship.



First of all, if you know that your death will cause despair, then don't you actually have people who CARE ABOUT YOU?

Secondly, cold hard cash does not compensate adequately for the loss of a life; it never did. Ask people who get wrongful death settlements when they lose a loved one due to someone else's negligence or purposeful action.

So you're trying to reduce the value of your life to dollars and cents to some unknown beneficiaries? Or are you developing a martyr complex? A true martyr, unlike these delusional suicide bombers, does not take his or her own life. It is an unavoidable consequence to making a stand for a cause. What is your cause other than being dissatisfied with the way your life has played out so far?

Sorry, but if it is within your power (and it is) to change the course of your life to where you feel better about it, then killing yourself is being a QUITTER. I think it is time you faced up to the fact that it is not tragically romantic, heroic, or painless (to you or your family) to take your own life. Quitting, especially when God has given you some abilities you haven't even begun to use, is lame.

Don't be lame. As Darth Vader said, "Fulfill your destiny."

It's my toy, so I can destroy it if I want to. Sounds like a similar thought, but a life is soooo much more precious than an I-Pod or an X-box or Battle Bots.

It's always been within my realm of belief, that a life ruined, is worse then a life lost. Regardless, no matter how precious my life is, it is mine to do with as I please, and that is backed by the physical reality that I control my own body.

If you don't like not having a good friend, you can make one. It does, however, involve some time on your part devoted to the friendship.

I have no knowledge of the difficultys of maintenance, as I have never had anything to maintain.

The fact that you feel you are friendless at this time can certainly be remedied--by you. Caring about somebody else is a good way to start a friendship.

I hate no one, admire a few, and respect, and care for, all. My problem lies not in emotional apathy towards others or their circumstances. My problematic apathy instead lies in caring about my own circumstance. This is not to say i'm a selfless saint, but on impulse, I can be very sacrificial, and there is barely a day that goes by, when I do not cry for some empathetic reason or other.

First of all, if you know that your death will cause despair, then don't you actually have people who CARE ABOUT YOU?

My parents of course care for me, but I believe to most of my peers, my death would be more of the death of a mascot then a friend.

Secondly, cold hard cash does not compensate adequately for the loss of a life;

6 million children under the age of 5 die each year from starvation. A million die from aids. Other millions die from treatable diseases. Money can buy lives, and if my death saves lives, then it is not immoral.

I think it is time you faced up to the fact that it is not tragically romantic, heroic, or painless (to you or your family) to take your own life.

I'm not pretending to be heroic. The suicide i'm contemplating is a cowardly action.

Cool. Have fun with that. It is interesting to find an intellect so laced with ignorance, but... hey... as you say... it is your life. Just never claim that your intellect killed you -- your ignorance killed you. And some starving kids will get some money for it -- that is, of course if you're parents decide to give it to them. I mean, I'm assuming that it is your parents money... right? Not yours? So generous you are with other people's money. Genius... now that's some true altruism right there. Just don't forget to subtract the cost of a funeral. So, have a ball, kid. But know this: you kill yourself, it isn't a cowardly act -- not in your case -- it's an act of ignorance. You don't believe this and I don't have the energy nor any further desire to explain it to you. You will either get over yourself or you won't. So, have fun, kid. Social apathy is not typical for a 14 year old with an above average intellect... yeah... tell me another one.

I just bought the book Final Exit by Derek Humphry a couple of weeks ago at Barnes & Noble... found in the "self-help" section no less . I was pretty struck by his need to reiterate that the point of his book was to help only people who are terminally ill exit this world at the time and relatively painless manner of their choosing, and that committing suicide for emotional or mental reasons was completely unjustified. I wondered who he was to sit there and quantifiably judge terminal physical pain as somehow being more validated than terminal mental distress... as I consider depression a potentially terminal illness.

Anyways.

1. Under what circumstance(s) would suicide be preferable to you than life?

Suicide, for me, is usually always preferable to life in the end. Short-term, life is preferable, which is why I'm still living - but long-term, suicide is how I would like to die. I don't want to get old and I don't want to see people around me die, and really it's just something that I simply feel in my core is going to happen and that's the way it should be. I've accepted that, save an accident or homicide, that eventually I will kill myself. It's something that's given me a lot of peace, and actually helped my depression to some degree. I don't have to take everything to heart. I don't face pain or personal challenges with trepidation because I know that I have the power to end it any time I choose.

2. Do you know anyone that committed suicide or tried to?

The only person I know who actually completed the act of suicide was a girl I used to eat lunch with under the bell tower at my old high school. She started eating there before I did, and the first time I ate there I smiled at her when she looked up and she just looked at me, and I immediately proclaimed her a you-know-what. We never ever talked to each other, she would just sit there and draw and write and I'd just eat. She killed herself by a shotgun and I was struck by how insensitively people talked about it the next day. For a few months afterward, I was really upset because I wished I had simply talked to her or reached out to her or something. I think I could have really helped her because I was going through the exact same thing.

Probably everyone I consider a friend has tried to commit suicide at one point or another... that's just the kind of people we are. We probably all suffer from some degree of depression, but some people I know aren't depressed so much as they just have an indescribably terrible life situation. Those people self-medicate with drugs and alcohol, and the rest of us numb ourselves through other addictions.

It's really not as bad as it sounds, but it reads kind of... hopelessly.

3. It seems to take a "celebrity" to get our attention about people taking their own lives. Is the act of suicide a underreported problem?

I don't think suicide is a problem at all. I have yet to hear anyone give me one good reason why we should not have the right to end our own lives. Selfishness is not against the law, and everyone possesses some degree of it. I can only speak about suicidal behavior from the perspective of someone who becomes suicidal due to severe chemical and hormonal imbalances rather than life events or situations, but as someone who has severe depression and PMS I realize how difficult it is for someone who is not mentally ill to comprehend exactly how deeply and strongly it affects you. Unlike with physical illnesses, there is no set method on how to cure depression and in fact some drugs for depression actually increase the risk of suicide. The illness of depression feels and operates completely differently from the kind of depression a normal, healthy human being might get from being dumped, or from being fired, or some other situational event. It actually changes your mind. It is nothing volunteering, or going for a jog, or hanging out with friends and family can even begin to affect. It is this heavy cloud of complete despair, so heavy that you actually react slower because it is just weighing your cognitive functions down, so heavy that you can barely hold your head up in class, so heavy that it almost seems like your vision is darker. Everything just becomes bleaker. I'm doing a terrible job of describing what happens when it sets in and that's because there really is no way of describing severe clinical depression, you just have to feel it and then you'll immediately know when you're there how badly it affects you.

It is so easy for people who aren't mentally ill to sit there and judge and offer advice to people who aren't. I'm not referring to people in this thread, but rather society in general. I cannot force my brain and the way it operates to change. I am someone who has always prided myself on having a lot of control but there are times when I have absolutely none, not a single iota of control that can compare and fight against that dark cloud when it sets in. It grips me and all I can do is try to wait it out, curled up and shaking in a fetal position on my bed. It is that bad, it physically hurts me.

I don't intend for this to become a thread about me, but I'm trying to offer my own personal insight onto suicide because I spend a lot of my time either thinking about it or in a suicidal state. When I first read the story about James Dungy, I almost immediately concluded that he was either bipolar or clinically depressed. If there was nothing obvious going on in his life that would contribute to a state of depression severe enough to commit suicide to end, then the obvious conclusion is that the depression was caused from within.

Nighttimer stated in his opening post that "I cannot understand what it would take to drive a young man to kill himself. I can't begin to know what demons could drive someone to prefer the finality of death over the possibility of life." The funny thing about depression and suicidal thoughts and behaviors is that is doesn't have to even have a catalyst. There are some days that actually go relatively well and those are the days when I'll have some of my most intense, frequent suicidal thoughts and desires. Sometimes, it's just something that you up and do, and I know that probably doesn't make sense to a lot of people but that's the best way I can explain it. Personally, I'm almost certain I will never take my life in a time of despair, but just one day when I'm feeling fine, calm, at peace with the world and will just decide to do it while I'm not a complete emotional wreck.

I understand that there are drugs, many different drugs and different ways of effecting and combating depression out there and I've been on most of them. Some of them make me absolutely numb inside, so numb I want to kill myself anyway because I can't feel anything. Some of them give me an artificially bubbly, "nothing anyone says or does can affect me" personality that I'm just not comfortable with. Some of them do nothing. Some of them give me muscle spasms and weight gain. I am extremely wary of drugs to combat depression, not only because of recent reports of them making teenagers more suicidal, but also because I was on one anti-depressant or another from the time I was 9 until I was 18 and to this day I wonder how much havoc being on those kinds of chemistry-altering drugs wrecked on my still-developing brain and body that I don't know about and never will because there simply haven't been enough studies done about the long-term and developmental effects of the drugs I was forced to take.

I like to think of myself as a pretty level-headed, rational person who happens to suffer from a mental illness. I don't think mentally ill people who commit suicide are irrational. I think they're tired of the pain, tired of the judgements from people who have no idea what it's really like and not just "feeling blue," tired of the medical establishment coming out with another miracle cure and then lying about or withholding information about the severe side effects, and last but not least tired of being told how selfish they are when they try to talk about their feelings about suicide. Who can these people really, truly turn to when their doctors are obligated by law to commit them and everyone else is all too eager to judge them?

Suzy, that was one of the most powerful statements i've ever read...certainly one of the most memorable I've ever seen on this board. I don't know anyone closely that suffers from depression, but I feel I now have a slightly better understanding of the darkness that sufferers of depression feel. Overwhelming.

I don't know you, and I don't have any illusions about how much impact anything I say will have on you. But I do have this to say in response. The fact that you have not yet decided to end your life in the face of such unbelieveable pain means you have great strength and courage, but most of all you have HOPE. Whatever drives you to have that hope, hang on to it. The treatment DOES exist to make you feel better. Its simply a matter of time to find it.

In the meantime draw strength from the fact that people do care about you, worry about you and pray for you.

Good luck and God bless...

Stan

Hello Suzy. I'm very glad to see your post here. You've been missed. You covered a lot of ground here but I'm going to focus on your first and last paragraphs.

I'm familiar with Derek Humphry and Final Exit. (Did the cashier arch an eyebrow when you bought the book?) I have no interest in reading the book at this time, but at some point I might. I do agree with him that suicide based on emotional or mental reasons is unjustified. Too often we make decisions based upon our mood of the moment. Sometimes that means we take a gun and shoot the spouse who has just informed us they cheated with our best friend. Sometimes that means we put the gun in our mouth, pull the trigger and blow off the back of our head.

Either act is spurred by the emotion of the moment. At a time like that you're operating on pure passion and not thinking in a calm, reasoned and critical manner. That's exactly the wrong time to make a life altering---or ending---decision. Humphry and I both understand that. As a intelligent and rational woman, I believe you do as well.

I'm not presumptive enough to sit here in front of my computer and delude myself I can give you the reason why suicide is not the viable option you think it is Suzy. If you are not terminally ill, then you are not going to find Humphry's book terribly useful.

I know she wasn't one of your contemporaries, but I wonder are you familiar with Phyllis Hyman? At one point Phyllis was voted by a British music magazine as the Most Popular Vocalist over Aretha Franklin, Whitney Houston and Anita Baker. Now she's just a tragic footnote. Like you, she was a talented Black woman. Like you, she was an outsider even among her own race. Like you, she made an indelible impression upon anyone that ever heard her beautiful, soaring vocals. Unlike you, (yet) she committed suicide in 1995.

http://www.soulwalking.co.uk/Phyllis%20Hyman.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phyllis_Hyman

There seems to be more than a few parallel lines between Hyman's life and death and your anguish, Suzy. I think you might find she expresses in her music some of the emotions you are currently experiencing.

We are in total agreement on your point, I consider depression a potentially terminal illness. So do I. However, it is difficult to compare depression with cancer or Alzheimers or some lingering, wasting disease. Most people cannot grasp being so depressed that death seems a compelling alternative to going on living. Depressed cannot be seen, touched or readily observed by the casual observer. Deep down in the darkness though it can hurt just like any physical pain.

But depression is disease and it is a disease that can be treated. It helps though if the person who is depressed wants to be treated. Or is the misery easier to cope with than waging the struggle to get well.



I'm of the belief that if you have a toothache, there's no shame in admitting that it hurts and you need to see a dentist. So, if you're hurting emotionally, why should there be any shame in admitting it and seeing a psychologist?

I've seen a psychologist twice in my life. Once when I was unable to cope with the death of my mother and when I was gripped with anger and frustration due to racial animus while I was a student at Ohio State University. It ain't easy owning up to being in dire straits emotionally, but I honestly believe one of the reasons I'm here today instead of locked away in a prison or lying dead under the earth is because I knew I couldn't heal myself, the mood was not going to fade and the hurt was deep inside me.

Suzy, just as you have people who care about you on this board who have never met you, you have people in your real non-Suzy Steamboat life that care about you far more. If you're as self-aware and knowledgable as you believe you are then I'm only saying here what you already know.

Pain is not unique. Your is unique within your own world, but whatever it is that has poisoned your spirit is not unique. Everybody gets hurt. Everybody fails. It's just a matter of who among us can pull ourselves back from the brink and not go over. Just because you see a psychologist does not mean they're going to put you on some drug treatment. If that's not what you want, then let the person that is working with know you don't want any type of chemical booster shot.

I don't think there are any miracle cures or happy pills that cure depression. I don't think telling people they should "snap out of it" or compare their lot in life to poor suffering people in some Third World hellhole.

Feelings of sadness, emptiness and futility is not "sick" or "wrong." Believing that tomorrow won't be better than today doesn't mean you're ready to be fitted for a jacket that ties in the back. There is nothing wrong when it seems like the whole world is sexist and racist, full of violent psychopaths and greedy fools who are concerned only with assessing more money and power than bettering the life of other people. I can't begin to guess some of the things you go through as a young, Black woman who doesn't quite fit in either the White or Black world. I can't begin to guess how you cope with the ordinary acts of sexism, racism and just plain stupidity that can drive you crazy.

It's okay if you think the glass is half-empty instead of half-full, Suzy. Really it is.

What's NOT okay is quietly surrendering to the demons. While you may understand why James Dungy chose to end his life far better than I, Suzy, it doesn't mean that he was right to do so. And it doesn't mean that you're right if you do the same.

I would encourage you to seek out a therapist or counselor at your school. I'm sure they provide such services or can direct you to an agency that does. I hope you will make the effort and take these words from the heart because that's where they are coming from. If you want to defeat your depression, you have to define it first and you can't do that kind of self-analysis all alone. You have to reach out and find some help. Be it from a friend, relative, trained professional or a teacher or minister you respect, FIND THAT HELP because it's there for you if you are willing to accept it.

So are your friends here at America's Debate that value you not only as a skillful, smart and witty debater, but also as a quality human being.

Keep ya' head up.

I came accross this discussion while searching for a way to commit suicide but make it look like an accident.

Over the last 5 years I have suffered from panic attacks which have worsened as time has passed. Every single aspect of my life has suffered. I used to be a really outgoing person, loved heading out and socialising ... I now sometimes find it hard to go into a shop myself to buy a newspaper. Unless I have plenty of alcohol prior to doing anything I tend not to socialise.
I have (had) a really good job but it has got to the point that I can no longer go to meetings, meet people etc and because of this I have recently been demoted, losing my privileges (company car, petrol allowance etc). This means I am going to really struggle to afford to get to work in the future. About a year ago I bought a house along with my brother, which we both live in, and again I cannot see myself been able to afford this. I have worked for the company since I left school. I am unqualified and know I will not get another job offering the same salary I am on now.
I saw my doctor about my problem a year and a half ago and despite some initial interviews I am still waiting to see someone to help me with my problem. A year and a half! I am from the UK and do not have private health insurance. Even if I started seeing someone tomorrow I think it is too late to salvage my career.

I cannot see any hope for the future whatsoever. I will loose my job meaning I will loose my house, letting my brother down. I cannot even apply for other jobs because of my condition. I think because I dislike the person i have become so much I end up taking it out on the people closest to me, I have pushed nearly all my family away through arguments and my total hatefullness.

I love my mother sister and girlfriend very very much and do not wish them to know I have committed suicide, this is why I want it to look like an accident. My brother would also get insurance if I died accidently.

I'm not sure why I wrote this here and i apologise for it being so scatty - thats just the way my head is at the moment.

I am not sure where I will go from here, I guess time will tell.

C

CME,

Your life is worth so much more than the sum total of its parts. And you are very capable of change, when you have the right stimulus.

But when you can't find within yourself the strength it takes to make a change, and when the options you have seem very limited and unacceptable, you can still reach out to others for help. I reached out to others and it changed my life enough that I hung in there. I will be celebrating my 53rd birthday this year, and I've been through some rough stuff: my sons were kidnapped by their father and I was unable to raise them, the deaths of my parents, being fired from a job, going through a divorce, being widowed once, and being diagnosed with cancer last year.

Please talk to a psychologist or a religious person (Correction: a spiritual person or a person of faith)--make it somebody who doesn't know you and your family--and talk about your life. Sometimes it just helps to talk. What have you got to lose?

And stick around in AD--there's always something interesting to talk about here--you are most certainly welcome.

I will be thinking about you and praying for you.

Does your Country have the equivalent to our "Americans with disabilities" Act? If so you might be protected at work and to some extent with your Real Estate.

Check with your local City Government, they would have the information.

Are you a Veteran, if so the Military might be able to help.

Do you attend a church? See if they have help available.

Check these sources out. There is help out there, but sometimes it's simply hard to find.

Even if you are not a member of a Church, they often have people who specialize in these types of issues, free and on a non religious basis.

I for years volunteered in a Lutheran support group for Divorced and Separated individuals. I was not Lutheran, and a good number of participants were not religious. We simply did not care, we just wanted to help.

My best to you.

Red

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