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Cube Jockey
This topic is in part a continuation of this discussion. Since the old discussion was closed the issue certainly hasn't gone away and in fact has picked up some steam.

The whistleblower that was the source for the NY Times story that originally started all of this has finally stepped forward and his name is Russell Tice. ABC News has a writeup on it and a short 5 to 10 min video segment. Some interesting excerpts:
QUOTE
President Bush has admitted that he gave orders that allowed the NSA to eavesdrop on a small number of Americans without the usual requisite warrants.

But Tice disagrees. He says the number of Americans subject to eavesdropping by the NSA could be in the millions if the full range of secret NSA programs is used.

"That would mean for most Americans that if they conducted, or you know, placed an overseas communication, more than likely they were sucked into that vacuum," Tice said.


The same day The New York Times broke the story of the NSA eavesdropping without warrants, Tice surfaced as a whistleblower in the agency. He told ABC News that he was a source for the Times' reporters. But Tice maintains that his conscience is clear.

"As far as I'm concerned, as long as I don't say anything that's classified, I'm not worried," he said. "We need to clean up the intelligence community. We've had abuses, and they need to be addressed."


He will be testifying in Congress on this matter, a date is not yet set as far as I know.

Questions for debate:
1. Is this a violation of our constitutional rights? Why or why not?

2. What outcome do you believe a congressional investigation into the matter will have?
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Amlord
1. Is this a violation of our constitutional rights? Why or why not?

There are strong arguments (given in the last debate on this topic) that if the surveillance is limited to at least one component being foreign then the President has the authority to do this under the Constitution. Such surveillance could not be used in a criminal prosecution.

I do not want to rehash that entire debate.

If there is something further (as Tice alludes to) then we must re-evaluate the argument.

2. What outcome do you believe a congressional investigation into the matter will have?

The hearings will likely be closed door. I also think that there needs to be a Supreme Court decision on this. The Congressional hearings will be the vehicle for bringing a case about.

Furthermore, Tice will be prosecuted (and convicted) of leaking classified information. What he should have done was bring his complaint to his Senator or Representative, which would have avoided the crime of disclosing classified information.
Lesly
Here’s a good Slate article concerning whistleblowers:
QUOTE
Are you allowed to leak government secrets to expose an illegal act?

No. According to federal whistle-blower protection law, members of the intelligence community are not protected if they divulge classified information to anyone without the proper security clearance, even if they think they have evidence of a crime. They can, however, pass along what they know to higher-ups and internal auditors within the bureaucracy without fear of retaliation. Provided they go through the proper channels, they can also spill the beans to a member of Congress who has the appropriate clearance.

If identified, the Times' leakers might argue that the information they divulged was improperly classified. Executive Order 13292, which covers secret national-security information, says that nothing can be classified so as to "conceal violations of law, inefficiency, or administrative error." With this in mind, they might claim that the domestic wiretap information wasn't actually secret, since it had been classified incorrectly.

Executive Order 13292 also says that if you're authorized to have classified information and that you, "in good faith, believe its classification status is improper," you are "encouraged and expected to challenge the classification status." That means that you should pass along your concern to higher-ups or an appeals panel, without fear of retribution. Federal employees also have a general obligation to pass along evidence of official misconduct through official channels. … This obligation wouldn't apply to leaks to the press unless the information had been improperly classified.

National security whistle-blowers are rarely brought up on criminal charges, since it's very hard for the government to prove that a leaker intended to break the law. (Only one official has ever been convicted of leaking classified information to the press.) The whistle-blowers are more likely to face administrative sanctions—they might lose their security clearance, for example, or get fired.

QUOTE(Amlord @ Jan 11 2006, 01:52 PM)
What he should have done was bring his complaint to his Senator or Representative, which would have avoided the crime of disclosing classified information.
*

How? If Rockefeller (D-WV) can be believed Bush forbade discussing the super duper extra secret program with other ranking members on the Senate Intelligence Committee. That’s what is supposed to happen. Graham (D-FL) was committee chairman at the time. He says he wasn’t informed. How should we believe Tice was told different?

Is this a violation of our constitutional rights? Why or why not?
Yes. I’ll just refer to the first thread.

What outcome do you believe a congressional investigation into the matter will have?
SCOTUS review is necessary since confusion is abound on FISC’s ruling of two PATRIOT amendments to FISA as constitutional. SCOTUS may clear Tice if he can prove proper channels of communication were blocked. I won’t hold out for the alternative, sentencing Tice and Bush/Cheney.
TedN5
1. Is this a violation of our constitutional rights? Why or why not?

Of course it's a violation of our constitutional rights and an illegal program supposedly justified by the doctrine of executive unitary power. This pernicious doctrine represents one of the greatest threats to constitutional government that has ever existed in the United States. The NSA spying was part of a much larger pattern of actions also justified in the same way including legal memos justifying torture and the signing letter the president issued when he signed the Defense Appropriation's Bill that contained the McCain Amendment re-outlawing torture. (In essence the signing letter claimed that the President had the inherent authority to authorize acts of torture despite the legislation).

The NSA electronic spying should also be considered in conjunction with the NSA surveillance of protest groups. (See this Raw Story Article). This particular group was associated with the Quakers (a huge threat to national security).

QUOTE
"The NSA confirmed, because of a FOIA request I filed, that indeed it has files on peace and justice groups," Obuszewiski said. "However, the Agency is refusing to release the information unless I pay $1,915. What might be in these files?"

A second NSA document on the letterhead of the National Security Agency Police and authored by NSA Police Major Michael E. Talbert is dated Oct. 3, 2004. It is an action plan for the "threat of a demonstration hosted by a group known as Pledge of Resistance - Baltimore." They note the demonstration is part of the "Keep Space for Peace Week." The NSA action plan includes plans for four days, but six activities being planned by the NSA before the day of the demonstration have been redacted.



2. What outcome do you believe a congressional investigation into the matter will have?

I generally resist doing any crystal ball gazing but, in this case, I will suggest a likely course of events. Secret congressional hearing will be held. Because they are secret the Republican majority in both houses will issue reports excusing the spying on citizens. The Democrats will issue minority reports critical of the threat to civil liberties but their reports will be so heavily redacted that they will have little impact on the public.

What hope there is to reclaim the Republic from a blotted executive lies with the criminal investigations of both the executive and Congress being carried forward by professionals in the Justice Department. We may yet experience the curtailment of these investigations by the Attorney General.
Amlord
QUOTE(TedN5 @ Jan 11 2006, 03:17 PM)


The NSA electronic spying should also be considered in conjunction with the NSA surveillance of protest groups.  (See this Raw Story Article). This particular group was associated with the Quakers (a huge threat to national security).


That doesn't look like NSA spying to me. It looks like a police report stemming from the fact that the group was going to protest the NSA. It keeps referencing NSA Police Operations---i.e. security.
Ted
QUOTE
Questions for debate:
1. Is this a violation of our constitutional rights? Why or why not?


Let’s see what the extent of the listening is. I am with Bush and support the listening to overseas calls made by folks we have reason to suspect would hurt us.

QUOTE
2. What outcome do you believe a congressional investigation into the matter will have?

Depends on what the truth in the matter really is. This man should IMO be prosecuted for leaking classified info and given the maximum sentence for the crime.
Lek
QI: Yes it's a violation. Search (snooping, peeking, fishing) without warrant is in violation of a "street english" understanding of the 4th amendment of the Const. against "unreasonable search and seizure". I advocate a direct "street english" interpretation as it would be made by us common men of the Commons, and not the many Court "interpretations", such as those allowing electronic emanations from a home computer to be "received/snooped". (I am aware that I am taking a stand on Court's right(s) for Const. review in making my comment. I find that such a review is not specified to any part of federal gov't. Const. missions, and therefore that it is a right of the states and/or the people.)

Q2: I would expect a Congressional review to be a rather shallow, business mostly as usual, but possibly/hopefully restraining NSA and the Presidency from Warrantless "electronic fishing"; but, I don't expect it will go as deep as I personally want.
Remember, there are crooks in gov't. just as elsewhere, and the temptation to use essentially trade secret, insider trading, personal asset attack, etc., by the "worker bees" is too much of a temptation to allow. I would hope such a review would result in a clearer delineation of missions and functions for investigations by CIA, FBI, Homeland Def Dept, etc., and would open public debate and review on these missions, and turfs, as a result.
Bikerdad
Questions for debate:
1. Is this a violation of our constitutional rights? Why or why not?
No. Why would eavesdropping on the conversations and communications of foreigners who have declared their intent to kill us be a violation of our rights? laugh.gif

2. What outcome do you believe a congressional investigation into the matter will have? My guess would be that it will blow up in the faces of Congressional members who push for the investigation.
Cube Jockey
It looks like Tice stepping forward is already leading to additional information on this matter. There are two stories out today that debunk two common talking points surrounding this debate.

1. Bush did this in response to 9/11

2. Clinton and others did it too

Both of them are false.

TruthOut has a story published today that cites documentary evidence that Bush was authorizing this sort of tapping on American citizens immediately after taking office, before 9/11.
QUOTE
The National Security Agency advised President Bush in early 2001 that it had been eavesdropping on Americans during the course of its work monitoring suspected terrorists and foreigners believed to have ties to terrorist groups, according to a declassified document.

The NSA's vast data-mining activities began shortly after Bush was sworn in as president and the document contradicts his assertion that the 9/11 attacks prompted him to take the unprecedented step of signing a secret executive order authorizing the NSA to monitor a select number of American citizens thought to have ties to terrorist groups.

~snip~

What had long been understood to be protocol in the event that the NSA spied on average Americans was that the agency would black out the identities of those individuals or immediately destroy the information.

But according to people who worked at the NSA as encryption specialists during this time, that's not what happened. On orders from Defense Department officials and President Bush, the agency kept a running list of the names of Americans in its system and made it readily available to a number of senior officials in the Bush administration, these sources said, which in essence meant the NSA was conducting a covert domestic surveillance operation in violation of the law.


Now moving on to the "Clinton did it too" talking point... Bloomberg News has a story there:
QUOTE
Former President Clinton said Thursday that he never ordered wiretaps of American citizens without obtaining a court order, as President Bush has acknowledged he has done.

Clinton, in an interview broadcast Thursday on the ABC News program ''Nightline,'' said his administration either received court approval before authorizing a wiretap or went to court within three days after to get permission, as required by law.

'We either went there and asked for the approval or, if there was an emergency and we had to do it beforehand, then we filed within three days afterward and gave them a chance to second guess it,'' Clinton told ABC.
Devils Advocate
I admit I haven't read the entire thread from last time before it closed, but this caught my eye and I just needed some help here. Could I please get a source on this?

QUOTE(Bikerdad)
Why would eavesdropping on the conversations and communications of foreigners who have declared their intent to kill us be a violation of our rights?


I wasn't aware we were eavesdropping on people who explicitly stated, on some sort of record apparently, that they wanted to kill us (which I assume is Americans). If you could show me that, and where it says that both parties were not US citizens that would be great.

QUOTE(Bloomberg News)
'We either went there and asked for the approval or, if there was an emergency and we had to do it beforehand, then we filed within three days afterward and gave them a chance to second guess it,'' Clinton told ABC.


I'm not so sure I'd take his complete word for it. I think his statement would hold more sway if others backed him, or records came out supporting this claim. He might be saying this only because he knows NSA records are classified and can't be revealed (I don't actually know if this is the case, just a possibility and idea). Although, I hope Clinton is being honest and this is the truth.

1. Is this a violation of our constitutional rights? Why or why not?

Yes, a warrant was not issued even after the three day grace period. That's the law at the moment as I understand it, and the administration has broken it.

2. What outcome do you believe a congressional investigation into the matter will have?

I would hope some sort of repercussions are handed out, I mean, a law seems to have been broken. But for some reason I don't think that will happen.
Google
Just Leave me Alone!
QUOTE(Ted @ Jan 11 2006, 05:02 PM)
Let’s see what the extent of the listening is.  I am with Bush and support the listening to overseas calls made by folks we have reason to suspect would hurt us.
*


I agree with Ted that I support the listening to overseas calls made by folks we have reason to suspect would hurt us. I am NOT with Ted in the sense that I am not with Bush on this issue.

1. Is this a violation of our constitutional rights? Why or why not?

Right to be secure in your person. Lets remember that FISA courts were set up as an independent check on abuse of wiretaps by the President. The whole point was to stop what Kennedy and Nixon did which was wiretap political enemies. ph34r.gif The administration turning in the names of the suspected dangerous people within 72 hours after they start tapping to a secret court that in its history has only rejected 5 of some 19,000 eavesdropping requests is not an undue burden. This is not something that would cripple the War on Terror. What I want to know is why people feel that this President has the right to override such a small check on government power? Would you want future Presidents to have this much power? Without the FISA check, how do we know that the President isn't just using our tax dollars to get dirt on anyone who disagrees with him? unsure.gif
TedN5
QUOTE
(Amlord)
That doesn't look like NSA spying to me. It looks like a police report stemming from the fact that the group was going to protest the NSA. It keeps referencing NSA Police Operations---i.e. security.


Security means informing the local police and having them present to control demonstrators. With pacifists like Quakers, even that would have not been necessary. This may not have been electronic intercepts carried out by skilled technicians but it was NSA personnel (Defense Department employees) spying on civilians exercising their constitutional right to demonstrate.

QUOTE
Documents turned over by the NSA indicate that the group was closely monitored. In one instance, the agency filed reports approximately every 15 minutes from 9:30 AM to 3:18 PM on the day of a demonstration at the National Vigilance Airplane Memorial on the NSA Campus in Maryland.

According to an NSA email dated July 4, 2004, the agency collected license numbers and descriptions and the number of people in each car and filed a report about them gathering in a church parking lot for the demonstration. NSA agents also logged their travel to the demonstration, including stopping as a gas station along the way. A canine dog unit was used to search a minivan when it was stopped on the way to the demonstration - nothing was found.

NSA officials even reported on the balloons being inflated for the demonstration and the content of their signs
(From the RawStory Article cited above).
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