Full Version: Carry-conceal legislation: are there limits?
My state's legislature is in session and a new carry-conceal bill has just survived the first round.
1.)Should city ordinances banning or restricting the "right" to carry-conceal be exempt from state laws that state it's allowable?
2.)Do you have a constitutional right to carry-conceal?
3.)If you answered yes to #1, how does it follow that local laws trump state laws?
4.)Scenario--I take my kids to a store/shop that is held-up by a robber. A citizen who carry-conceals whips out a gun, fires, the shell ricochets and kill my child. Do I have a right to sue the citizen? Would I have the right to sue the state? Why or why not?
(University of Nebraska colors)
QUOTE
Lawmakers overcame a filibuster and gave 33-11 first-round approval Thursday to a bill establishing a system allowing Nebraskans to qualify for a permit to carry concealed weapons.
During several days of debate, Senator DiAnna Schimek of Lincoln raised questions about whether local governments could prohibit or further regulate the carrying of such weapons.
The issue could lead to revisions of the measure at the second stage of debate. Legislation must be approved at three stages of consideration to be enacted.
During several days of debate, Senator DiAnna Schimek of Lincoln raised questions about whether local governments could prohibit or further regulate the carrying of such weapons.
The issue could lead to revisions of the measure at the second stage of debate. Legislation must be approved at three stages of consideration to be enacted.
1.)Should city ordinances banning or restricting the "right" to carry-conceal be exempt from state laws that state it's allowable?
2.)Do you have a constitutional right to carry-conceal?
3.)If you answered yes to #1, how does it follow that local laws trump state laws?
4.)Scenario--I take my kids to a store/shop that is held-up by a robber. A citizen who carry-conceals whips out a gun, fires, the shell ricochets and kill my child. Do I have a right to sue the citizen? Would I have the right to sue the state? Why or why not?
(University of Nebraska colors)
1.)Should city ordinances banning or restricting the "right" to carry-conceal be exempt from state laws that state it's allowable?
We’ve had conceal laws in our state for about ten years now, fortunately nothing like your scenario has occurred. Sections 13 and 14 of the link address the restrictions of where concealed weapons are allowed. Most are obvious, courthouses, airports, schools, bars, but an individual business owner has the right to ban concealed weapons as well.
I don’t think it’s practical for a city to supersede the state law in this instance. A licensed weapon owner would have to know the laws where ever they traveled and the restrictions in our state appear to be practical enough to meet the concerns of an individual city.
2.)Do you have a constitutional right to carry-conceal?
Can’t find the initial case where an individual argued the right to carry a concealed weapon. However, since the courts have upheld that the “right to bear arms” applies to individuals and not just a standing military, than I would imagine the right to carry a concealed weapon is merely a restricted extension of that right.
4.)Scenario--I take my kids to a store/shop that is held-up by a robber. A citizen who carry-conceals whips out a gun, fires, the shell ricochets and kill my child. Do I have a right to sue the citizen? Would I have the right to sue the state? Why or why not?
I believe the state would be excluded, else any one injured in a car wreck could sue the state. Not sure who, if any one, would be held liable if it was determined to be in self defense. If I had to guess it would probably the shooter.
We’ve had conceal laws in our state for about ten years now, fortunately nothing like your scenario has occurred. Sections 13 and 14 of the link address the restrictions of where concealed weapons are allowed. Most are obvious, courthouses, airports, schools, bars, but an individual business owner has the right to ban concealed weapons as well.
I don’t think it’s practical for a city to supersede the state law in this instance. A licensed weapon owner would have to know the laws where ever they traveled and the restrictions in our state appear to be practical enough to meet the concerns of an individual city.
2.)Do you have a constitutional right to carry-conceal?
Can’t find the initial case where an individual argued the right to carry a concealed weapon. However, since the courts have upheld that the “right to bear arms” applies to individuals and not just a standing military, than I would imagine the right to carry a concealed weapon is merely a restricted extension of that right.
4.)Scenario--I take my kids to a store/shop that is held-up by a robber. A citizen who carry-conceals whips out a gun, fires, the shell ricochets and kill my child. Do I have a right to sue the citizen? Would I have the right to sue the state? Why or why not?
I believe the state would be excluded, else any one injured in a car wreck could sue the state. Not sure who, if any one, would be held liable if it was determined to be in self defense. If I had to guess it would probably the shooter.
QUOTE(nebraska29 @ Jan 18 2006, 11:57 PM)
4.)Scenario--I take my kids to a store/shop that is held-up by a robber. A citizen who carry-conceals whips out a gun, fires, the shell ricochets and kill my child. Do I have a right to sue the citizen? Would I have the right to sue the state? Why or why not?
(University of Nebraska colors)
(University of Nebraska colors)
You always have a right to sue whomever you'd like for whatever reason, however, the scenario you portray is more than unlikely.
People that have licensed concealed weapons permits are often less-than-amateurs when it comes to personal firearms. In Texas, for instance, you have to go to classes, pass background checks, and be subjected to a testing process. I could say that accidents aren't impossible in this vain, but more than unlikely.
In Texas, you can even make a case that people whom carry licensed handguns are far less likely to commit crime than the general public (or for the most part are more safe to be around).
Check this out
Granted, your scenario discusses accidental death, but frankly I'd be interested in seeing incidents such as these.
Surprise... I have a CHL, but couldn't ever see myself (or any of my peers) pulling out a gun to stop a robbery of a store. Most people that I've encountered in this state that have CHL's , work or live in areas where personal safety might be compromised. I personally used to travel in parts of Dallas, Houston and Austin that were less than warm and fuzzy at night...
QUOTE
1.)Should city ordinances banning or restricting the "right" to carry-conceal be exempt from state laws that state it's allowable?
State law should be the president. And states should allow citizens to carry concealed weapons. A majority of states now allow this and there have been indications that this has reduced the incidence of violent crime – esp. against weomen
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2.)Do you have a constitutional right to carry-conceal?
No case that I am aware of has been brought before the SC. The Second Amendment seems to indicate that you do but many states do not allow it.
QUOTE(nebraska29 @ Jan 19 2006, 12:57 AM)
1.)Should city ordinances banning or restricting the "right" to carry-conceal be exempt from state laws that state it's allowable?
No. Cities are absolutely subordinate to states. If the state's statute does not specifically allow for futher restriction, then an further restriction by the city is highly questionable.2.)Do you have a constitutional right to carry-conceal? Yes. At least you do in Nebraska.
Article 1, Nebraska Constitution
QUOTE
Sec. 1. All persons are by nature free and independent, and have certain inherent and inalienable rights; among these are life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, and the right to keep and bear arms for security or defense of self, family, home, and others, and for lawful common defense, hunting, recreational use, and all other lawful purposes, and such rights shall not be denied or infringed by the state or any subdivision thereof. To secure these rights, and the protection of property, governments are instituted among people, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. (Amended 1988.)
The constitutional problem with CC laws lies with the fact that they are generally adopted precisely because open carry is already prohibited. As such, if open carry is prohibited, any requirement for a CC permit is an infringement.
3.)If you answered yes to #1, how does it follow that local laws trump state laws? They don't "trump" local laws. If the statewide speed limit is 65mph, a locality may not adopt a higher speed limit, but it may adopt a lower one. This condition is generally permitted within the state law on speed limits or chartering jurisdictions, so how it would play out for CC laws is iffy.
4.)Scenario--I take my kids to a store/shop that is held-up by a robber. A citizen who carry-conceals whips out a gun, fires, the shell ricochets and kill my child. Do I have a right to sue the citizen? Would I have the right to sue the state? Why or why not?
(University of Nebraska colors)
You have a right to sue, whether or not you would succeed depends on the specifics of the case. As a general rule however, the suit would fail unless gross recklessness and negligence could be proved. The robber would be charged with murder (the death occurred during the commission of a felony). As for suing the state, on what grounds?
Sorry about the color edit. Was driving me nuts.
As loathesome as I find the concept, yes.
I don't think so. The Second Amendment is clear that we have the right to keep and bear arms, but it's silent on the point of whether or not we can keep them and bear them under our coats. You can bear arms just as well on a gun belt or attached to a sling.
As a matter of practicality, I think concealed carry-- and laws permitting it-- is preferable, but I don't see a Constitutional right to do so.
In the same fashion that if there were a Federal law allowing concealed carry, and a State passed a law prohibiting it, the State law would take priority.
I'm not big on federalism, myself, but that seems to be the way our laws work.
I'd imagine you'd be within your rights to sue the citizen, but unless he behaved negligently, I don't see how you would be able to win. Firing a single shot at an armed criminal doesn't strike me as being negligent behavior, and the citizen has no means of controlling the way his shots will ricochet if he misses the robber.
I don't see any grounds to sue the State whatsoever. You'd have much better luck suing the shopowner-- though I'd hope to Hell that your suit gets thrown out of court. That's almost as bad as the robber himself suing.
QUOTE(nebraska29 @ Jan 18 2006, 11:57 PM)
]1.)Should city ordinances banning or restricting the "right" to carry-conceal be exempt from state laws that state it's allowable?
As loathesome as I find the concept, yes.
QUOTE(nebraska29 @ Jan 18 2006, 11:57 PM)
2.)Do you have a constitutional right to carry-conceal?
I don't think so. The Second Amendment is clear that we have the right to keep and bear arms, but it's silent on the point of whether or not we can keep them and bear them under our coats. You can bear arms just as well on a gun belt or attached to a sling.
As a matter of practicality, I think concealed carry-- and laws permitting it-- is preferable, but I don't see a Constitutional right to do so.
QUOTE(nebraska29 @ Jan 18 2006, 11:57 PM)
3.)If you answered yes to #1, how does it follow that local laws trump state laws?
In the same fashion that if there were a Federal law allowing concealed carry, and a State passed a law prohibiting it, the State law would take priority.
I'm not big on federalism, myself, but that seems to be the way our laws work.
QUOTE(nebraska29 @ Jan 18 2006, 11:57 PM)
4.)Scenario--I take my kids to a store/shop that is held-up by a robber. A citizen who carry-conceals whips out a gun, fires, the shell ricochets and kill my child. Do I have a right to sue the citizen? Would I have the right to sue the state? Why or why not?
I'd imagine you'd be within your rights to sue the citizen, but unless he behaved negligently, I don't see how you would be able to win. Firing a single shot at an armed criminal doesn't strike me as being negligent behavior, and the citizen has no means of controlling the way his shots will ricochet if he misses the robber.
I don't see any grounds to sue the State whatsoever. You'd have much better luck suing the shopowner-- though I'd hope to Hell that your suit gets thrown out of court. That's almost as bad as the robber himself suing.
1.)Should city ordinances banning or restricting the "right" to carry-conceal be exempt from state laws that state it's allowable?
Should it? Yes. It is more democratic that way.
2.)Do you have a constitutional right to carry-conceal?
I believe "bear arms" applies only to "carry."
3.)If you answered yes to #1, how does it follow that local laws trump state laws?
That depends on your constitution. Are your local governments devolved from the state, or is it a federal system where the state may only do what the local governments permit it to do? The local governments are probably devolved, which means the state can do what it wants. The democratic ideal would work the other way around. All powers should be reserved by the people, who then grant certain powers to the city, which in turn would grant certain powers to the county or the state (depending on if the cities wish to have an intermediate government between them and the state). Even so, I am sure the people, and the local governments, would find it better to have state-wide consistency with most, if not all, gun control laws. It is too easy to drive through a dozen different local governments, you cannot be expected to know the possession laws in each one. It could be that when you cross the border of each, you would need to move the gun from your glove box to your passenger seat to the trunk to a safe in your basement.
4.)Scenario--I take my kids to a store/shop that is held-up by a robber. A citizen who carry-conceals whips out a gun, fires, the shell ricochets and kill my child. Do I have a right to sue the citizen? Would I have the right to sue the state? Why or why not?
You can always try, but in this case I feel that you would have to show that the shooter had some level of incompetence, such that he should not have acted in the manner he did. (For example, if he shot in the wrong direction, or if he had no license to carry a gun, or if he had never trained nor practiced firing it.)
Should it? Yes. It is more democratic that way.
2.)Do you have a constitutional right to carry-conceal?
I believe "bear arms" applies only to "carry."
3.)If you answered yes to #1, how does it follow that local laws trump state laws?
That depends on your constitution. Are your local governments devolved from the state, or is it a federal system where the state may only do what the local governments permit it to do? The local governments are probably devolved, which means the state can do what it wants. The democratic ideal would work the other way around. All powers should be reserved by the people, who then grant certain powers to the city, which in turn would grant certain powers to the county or the state (depending on if the cities wish to have an intermediate government between them and the state). Even so, I am sure the people, and the local governments, would find it better to have state-wide consistency with most, if not all, gun control laws. It is too easy to drive through a dozen different local governments, you cannot be expected to know the possession laws in each one. It could be that when you cross the border of each, you would need to move the gun from your glove box to your passenger seat to the trunk to a safe in your basement.
4.)Scenario--I take my kids to a store/shop that is held-up by a robber. A citizen who carry-conceals whips out a gun, fires, the shell ricochets and kill my child. Do I have a right to sue the citizen? Would I have the right to sue the state? Why or why not?
You can always try, but in this case I feel that you would have to show that the shooter had some level of incompetence, such that he should not have acted in the manner he did. (For example, if he shot in the wrong direction, or if he had no license to carry a gun, or if he had never trained nor practiced firing it.)
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