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Aahz
QUOTE
Best of AD Award Winner: Best Topic: Constitutional Debate (tie), 2002-2003


Something interesting happened yesterday.....99.98% of armed American citizens harmed no one with their firearms. Wait that isnt the interesting part coz that happens everyday the interesting part is that in a country where Guns are totally outlawed 700% of the privately held firearms were used to harm someone....Now that is a feat ..Film at eleven...wink.gif


GBYA

Aahz
Google
JonBon
So what are you saying? That if a million people own guns legally and only 2000 use them to shoot other people, such a figure is both statisticaly and morally insignificant?
Jaime
Aahz - we closed the other debate partly because it was no longer being taken seriously.

What exactly do you want to debate?
Aahz
Well Jaime Jonbon has got a good start...smile.gif

Jonbon,

No that is not what I am saying. What I am saying is that statistics are what the statistician wants to show more times than not. It is only a way of starting conversation there is a name for it I used to know...LOL But it was bait.

What I also think it illustrates is that in England for instance the removal of the peoples freedom to own firearms has resulted in an escalating crime problem. In fact a UN report stated that one is more likely to be the victim of a mugging, street thuggery or property crime in England than any other industrialized nation. In fact European countries consistently rank higher than the US in this category. Australia and Wales were also mentioned. The USA has more deaths by firearms but when one considers the number of firearms in America, put at 300,000,000 by some estimates probably closer to 200,000,000, that is almost a firearm per person. We are generally pretty darn safe with them. If you include accidental, non fatal and Suicides gun wounds in America was around 40,000 last year. Down considerably from a peak in 97 (3 years after the 94 ban). 40,000 into 200,000,000 is .02% How much closer could one expect to get to perfect? Yet the people are still free to enjoy their firearms and is the most well defended nation on earth. What is the problem with that? Through education and firearm safety classes by the NRA Guns injuries are falling at a steady rate.


gtg

Aahz


OH BTW only 11,000 approximately, were not Law enforecement of one kind or another. So if you take away Law enforcement which because we are dealing with privately held firearms we should to be statistically accurate...wink.gif The number is even smaller something like .005% of privately held firearms were used to injure another human. So yes I guess I am saying I am willing to take that risk in order to enjoy my freedom...smile.gif
Hercules
Oooooh I'm glad this is here! biggrin.gif

What statistics that are not shown, and probably never will, is the crime that is thwarted with a privately owned and licensed firearm.

I live in Texas. I had just received my CHL (Concealed Handgun License). Seriously? The reason I got the CHL was so that I could legally stop by the gun shop, restaurant, etc. on the way to the range and/or the hunting lease (Law says with no CHL, straight to the event, straight home. NO STOPS)

I had just returned from the range where I was practicing with several handguns and also my shotgun. A little teenage punk actually tried to mug me on my front lawn with a knife......He had a quick change of heart when I had my pick of a 9mm, .357 or the 12 gauge. He soon came to his senses and ran off. Is this type of event statiscally recorded anywhere? I don't believe so.

IMHO. One of the reason people in Texas are a little safer is that criminals don't know which one of us is armed. biggrin.gif
Dontreadonme
QUOTE
Is this type of event statiscally recorded anywhere? I don't believe so.

I know that the NRA tracks and publishes this information, and I THINK it comes from the Department of Justice, but I will have to check on that.
Hercules
QUOTE(Dontreadonme @ Feb 13 2003, 03:16 PM)
QUOTE
Is this type of event statiscally recorded anywhere? I don't believe so.

I know that the NRA tracks and publishes this information, and I THINK it comes from the Department of Justice, but I will have to check on that.

Sorry, I can't see as how. Police that I reported the incident to only inquired about a description and a possible known location of the kid. They wrote down no information as to how I scared him off.

They were curious to look at the guns, but only to admire them (I had a new Baretta)

Sorry, I just don't see how this type of info can be used statistically....at least not in Texas.
Dontreadonme
Found this from http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/hvfsdaft.htm:

QUOTE
During the same period an estimated annual average of 62,000
violent crime victims (approximately 1 percent of all violent
crime victims) used a firearm in an effort to defend
themselves. In addition, an annual average of about 20,000
victims of theft, household burglary or motor vehicle theft
attempted to defend their property with guns.

In most cases victims defending themselves with firearms
were confronted by unarmed offenders or those armed with
weapons other than firearms.  During the six-year period,
about one in three armed victims faced an armed offender.


Still looking for more data.
Hercules
GREAT info, DTOM! Thanks!

I'm curious to their source. I wonder if those figures only take into account when the victim had to discharge the firerm?

I'm sure the police officers would've had to take more info had I had to actually shoot a warning shot or even shot at the kid........

I still think most most go unreported or at least under-reported....I dunno question.gif question.gif question.gif
Dontreadonme
Here is another great brief from the National Institute of Justice.
http://www.ncjrs.org/txtfiles/165476.txt

I would agree that certainly not all instances are reported to the police, or even if they are, not reported in statistical surveys.
Google
Hercules
More good stuff!

Encourage everyone to read.

Some of the things that stuck out to me were the unlocked portion of guns out there. Please buy a gun safe and keep them locked up when not in use.
Hercules
Interesting poll!
http://www.historychannel.com/

Please see the poll on this site. Don't know how long it'll be there.

As of today in the a.m.
Which right or freedom is most crucial to America's democratic way of life?
Freedom of religion 7% 1351 votes
Freedom of speech 20% 3791 votes
Right to bear arms 67% 12542 votes
Right to due process 4% 691 votes
Right to trial by jury 2% 422 votes


Total: Total Votes: 18,797
otseng
QUOTE(Hercules @ Feb 13 2003, 09:18 AM)
I had just returned from the range where I was practicing with several handguns and also my shotgun. A little teenage punk actually tried to mug me on my front lawn with a knife......He had a quick change of heart when I had my pick of a 9mm, .357 or the 12 gauge. He soon came to his senses and ran off.

Haha. laugh.gif I would've picked the 357. That reminds me, I need to go to the range more....
Hercules
LOL! otseng. Usually I would've too. But the 9mm had the clip with the personal defense rounds already loaded. A slap in the butt and a tug on the slide were all that was needed vs. loading that .357M revolver.

Plus the 9mm is a big gun in physical size compared to the .357M. Kid had noooooo idea what caliber it was.

....I've been keeping my eyes open for that little twerp. I still think he was semi-drunk (Obviously he was stupid).
ConservPat
Here's how I feel, you either have to completely crack down, and allow absolutely no one from getting guns or you have to make it so that almost everyone can get a gun, so that armed robbers, murderers, ect will be differed from pulling out their gun.

CP us.gif
Ultimatejoe
QUOTE(Hercules @ Feb 13 2003, 02:18 PM)
Oooooh I'm glad this is here!  biggrin.gif

What statistics that are not shown, and probably never will, is the crime that is thwarted with a privately owned and licensed firearm.

I live in Texas. I had just received my CHL (Concealed Handgun License). Seriously? The reason I got the CHL was so that I could legally stop by the gun shop, restaurant, etc. on the way to the range and/or the hunting lease (Law says with no CHL, straight to the event, straight home. NO STOPS)

I had just returned from the range where I was practicing with several handguns and also my shotgun. A little teenage punk actually tried to mug me on my front lawn with a knife......He had a quick change of heart when I had my pick of a 9mm, .357 or the 12 gauge. He soon came to his senses and ran off. Is this type of event statiscally recorded anywhere? I don't believe so.

IMHO. One of the reason people in Texas are a little safer is that criminals don't know which one of us is armed.  biggrin.gif

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Texas have one of the highest crime rates among the 50 states?
Dontreadonme
Ok....Texas is ranked 17th according to http://www.morganquitno.com/dang00.htm.

Surprisingly New Mexico is the most dangerous state by this ranking.
According to http://www.packing.org/ New Mexico has no CCW law, while Texas does.

Hmmmm....could there be a correlation?
ConservPat
If you are an armed robber and you know that buying guns is easy to do and then you might be a lttle tenative if you know your next victim might be packin' heat.

CP us.gif
Hercules
QUOTE(Ultimatejoe @ Feb 15 2003, 11:19 PM)
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Texas have one of the highest crime rates among the 50 states?

NOPE! ----- The death penalty helps too, IMHO (That's a different thread ) biggrin.gif



"Make owning guns a crime and only criminals will have guns."
Ultimatejoe
Your evidence being?
Hercules
Yes Texas does rank high on crime index numbers. That I won't argue. Sorry, but living in Maryland, New York and Florida. I FEEL safer in Texas (That's me!)

However since the debate is over gun control let's look at those statistics

2001 Crime Index:Source: U.S. Dept of Justce, FBI
California=296503
Florida=176993
Texas=142792
Pennsylvania=72155
North Carolina=70959
New Jersey=53720
Illinois=51267
New York=48489
Arizona=45546
Ohio=43162

California, New Jersey, New York and Illinois have some of the most restrictive gun control laws on the books. So why are they still high on the list??? Obviously resticting one's right to legally own a firearm didn't help. Time to look elsewhere to blame crime on.
Ultimatejoe
Nobody blames crime on gun laws or the lack thereof, at least I haven't seen that here. I am wondering what evidence you have that it restricts crime?

But my last question was in reference to the death penalty.
Hercules
As I said, the death penalty is for another thread and that was IMHO.

Most of the more gun-restrictive states blame guns for their crime problems.

California and New York being two of the most restrictive.

I thought I spotted the link here, maybe not. Recently Los Angeles decided to restrict all .50 caliber rifles, citing they were too powerful and could only be used as "Sniper" rifles for criminal activity.

Ironically, they then sent their own .50 caliber in for service to the man they would not listen to at their City Council meeting.

Here's a link to Ronnie Barrett's letter to the LAPD concerning servicing that rifle. Love him or hate him, it is kinda stupid to ban a man's product and then ask for service on the very product they banned. blink.gif

Barrett's letter to the LAPD
ConservPat
QUOTE(Conservpat @ Feb 16 2003, 05:11 PM)
If you are an armed robber and you know that buying guns is easy to do and then you might be a lttle tenative if you know your next victim might be packin' heat.

CP  us.gif

Oh, and there is that whole right to bear arms thing in the Constitution, shouldn't that be enough?

CP us.gif
DaytonRocker
QUOTE
Oh, and there is that whole right to bear arms thing in the Constitution, shouldn't that be enough?


A collective right, yes.
Izdaari
But the Justice Dept. now says it's an individual right, and some recent court rulings have said so too. I already knew that, but it's nice to see the government waking up to the correct interpretation of the Constitution.
DaytonRocker
QUOTE
But the Justice Dept. now says it's an individual right, and some recent court rulings have said so too.


The justice department could say the moon is made out of green cheese, but it really doesn't matter. It's what the courts says.

You are referring to the Emerson case. The Supremes punted this case because they would have had to overturn it. Emerson was long considered a renegade case. Somehow, it got through the appeals court and held on.

But note, there have been a least 2 cases after that and they have stuck with the US v. Miller case as everybody has. Emerson has not set a precedent because although it was a federal court, the Supreme Court has ruled that the right to bear arms is directly tied to the militia (in the Miller case).

If the second amendment were truly an individual right, no gun control law would have ever stuck. And every single one of them has.
LFTHNDTHRDS
I believe you are misinterpreting the Miller case, as do most anti-gunners. The Miller case is a very poor arguement for the case against guns because all the miller case determines is that Mr. Miller was in posession of a sawed-off shotgun. Since a sawed-off shotgun is not considered to be a useful weapon to "the militia", he does not have the right to own it.
Tell me. How does this determine that only "the militia" can have guns? How does it also determine that "the militia" is anything other than "every able bodied person"?
If anything, this case makes it mandatory to own "useful" weapons.
Izdaari
As LFTHNDTHRDS said: that's all Miller determined, and I can't find too much fault with Miller, though I can with the way subsequent courts have misapplied it. I'm well aware that many court cases have badly misinterpreted the Second Amendment. What the Founders meant though was an individual right, and I will hold to that interpretation no matter what any court says.

Nor are courts the ultimate arbiters - there are three branches of government with roughly equal powers for a reason. Sometimes the Legislative branch can and does overrule the Judicial, and sometimes the Executive branch does - which makes what the Attorney General thinks very, very relevant. As Andrew Jackson once said, "[Chief Justice] John Marshall has made his decision, now let him enforce it."

If the courts persist in misinterpreting the Second Amendment as a collective right, I'll continue to push for a political solution to overrule them. Possibly even a new right to bear arms amendment without language subject to misinterpretation if that becomes politically feasible.
Ultimatejoe
You should point out that the quote you take from Jackson was used as a preface for him forcefully relocating thousands of natives to take their land.
Izdaari
I don't know that that matters. The point is that the three branches of government have quite a bit of power to overrule each other, and that point stands whether the use Jackson made of it was admirable or ignoble.
Ultimatejoe
I'm attempting to demonstrate how the checks-and-balances system isn't necessarily equal. As the Trail of Tears demonstrates the judiciary can rule all it wants but the President can still *** NOTICE: THIS WORD IS AGAINST THE RULES. FAILURE TO REMOVE IT WILL RESULT IN A STRIKE. *** on their ruling.
Izdaari
Same thing I was saying, Ultimatejoe. For good or ill, just as you say, the President can *** NOTICE: THIS WORD IS AGAINST THE RULES. FAILURE TO REMOVE IT WILL RESULT IN A STRIKE. *** on their ruling if he wants. I think we can agree that the Trail of Tears was for ill. And likewise if the Congress doesn't like a ruling they can legislate around it. The Supremes like to think they're the final arbiters, but it ain't necessarily so.
DaytonRocker
QUOTE
I believe you are misinterpreting the Miller case


Wow...maybe I am. And so has every court outside of Emerson. And Robert Bork was wrong. Oh yeah, and Chief Justice Warren Burger misinterpreted it as well.

Excuse me, but that statement is ludicrous. The Miller case was based on the plaintiff's failure to demonstrate that such a firearm "at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia" (which the Court recognized to be "all males capable of acting in concert for the common defense").

It clearly ruled the second amendment a collective right. You can spin the "organized" vs. "unorganized" militia all day but the militia was clearly defined as a common defense (and able bodied males between the ages of 18 and 45).

No gun control law has EVER been struck down. This is because the Constitution trumps all and the Constitution does not give individual rights to own a firearm regardless of whatever was in the Federalists papers that never made the final cut (after all, there were anti-Federalists that included John Adams).

A predominately conservative Supreme Court had the opportunity to conclusively rule on this issue in the Emerson case. They didn't, because they didn't need to. It's been conclusively ruled 30 times since 1929. They didn't need to beat the same dead horse.
Izdaari
QUOTE(DaytonRocker @ Mar 11 2003, 06:33 PM)
QUOTE
I believe you are misinterpreting the Miller case


Wow...maybe I am. And so has every court outside of Emerson. And Robert Bork was wrong. Oh yeah, and Chief Justice Warren Burger misinterpreted it as well.

Excuse me, but that statement is ludicrous. The Miller case was based on the plaintiff's failure to demonstrate that such a firearm "at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia" (which the Court recognized to be "all males capable of acting in concert for the common defense").

It clearly ruled the second amendment a collective right. You can spin the "organized" vs. "unorganized" militia all day but the militia was clearly defined as a common defense (and able bodied males between the ages of 18 and 45).

No gun control law has EVER been struck down. This is because the Constitution trumps all and the Constitution does not give individual rights to own a firearm regardless of whatever was in the Federalists papers that never made the final cut (after all, there were anti-Federalists that included John Adams).

A predominately conservative Supreme Court had the opportunity to conclusively rule on this issue in the Emerson case. They didn't, because they didn't need to. It's been conclusively ruled 30 times since 1929. They didn't need to beat the same dead horse.

From The Second Amendment & The U.S. Supreme Court by Stefan B. Tahmassebi:

"In Miller v. Texas, the defendant challenged a Texas statute on the bearing of pistols as violative of the Second, Fourth, and Fourteenth Amendments. The problem for Miller was that he failed to timely raise these defenses in the state trial and appellate courts, raising these issues for the first time in the U.S. Supreme Court. While the court held that the Second and Fourth Amendment (prohibiting warrantless searches), of themselves, did not limit state action (as opposed to federal action), the court did not address the defendant's claim that these constitutional protections were made effective against state government action by the Fourteenth Amendment, because Miller did not raise these issues in a timely manner. The Court, thus, left open the possibility that these constitutional rights were made effective against state governments by the Fourteenth Amendment. Lastly, it should be noted that in this case, as in the other Supreme Court cases, the defendant was not a member of the Armed Forces, and yet the Supreme Court did not dismiss Miller's claim on that ground; thus, Miller, as a private citizen, did enjoy individual Second Amendment protection, even if he was not enrolled in the National Guard or Armed Forces."

The article cites a number of other Supreme Court cases that support individual gun rights. Which incidentally makes it clear that your claim that "No gun control law has EVER been struck down" is false since some of those cases did exactly that.

See also The Unabridged Second Amendment by J. Neil Schulman.
Mike_Raffone
QUOTE(DaytonRocker @ Mar 11 2003, 09:33 PM)
It clearly ruled the second amendment a collective right.

Please expound further on that position using the case of Aymette v. State, 2 Humphreys (Tenn.)
DaytonRocker
Straight from the ruling...

QUOTE
In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a 'shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length' at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense. Aymette v. State of Tennessee, 2 Humph., Tenn., 154, 158.


The Miller Ruling
Mike_Raffone
QUOTE(DaytonRocker @ Mar 12 2003, 08:36 PM)
Straight from the ruling...


I am quite familiar with the Miller decision. Your quote of the "absence of evidence" paragraph with its cite of Aymette does not address my request.

I wanted you to examine and explain your conclusion that Miller endorses the collective rights view, through the filter of the Aymette decision which the Miller court used to decide the status of Miller's shotgun.

How can you say you understand Miller without an understanding of the case they used to form their opinion?
DaytonRocker
Aynette? The bowie knife guy back in the 1800's?

That was a circuit court (something lower than the 30 or so federal and supreme rulings since Miller), debating the British Bill of Rights of 1689.

That ruling was used in Miller to exemplify the meaning of a common defense. Aynette was using the state constitution which basically said, all the white guys can be armed. The British Bill of Rights was all the protestant males. Our militia was all able-bodied males 18 to 45.

But anyhow, Miller didn't debate the purpose of the Militia...something Aynette tried to do. Aynette attempted to show (which no court since has ever followed) that these constitutional rights provided by the British, the feds, and the states were there to NOT eliminate the need for a standing army, but provide a means to violently overthrow the government.

Miller used Aynette to show how the second amendment was intended for the common defense. 225 years later, we're still debating exactly what that common defense is.

I personally think "well-regulated" means supplied and trained. My counterparts think it means having a loaded shotgun in your truck while sucking down Budweisers.

Thomas Jefferson stated in one of the Federalist papers that "..no man shall be disbarred from owning a firearm..." or something to that effect. All the anti-federalists (which included John Adams) blew a gasket and wouldn't allow that. The NRA's interpretation of the second amendment encourages mob rule...something John Adams vehemently opposed.
DaytonRocker
QUOTE
Thomas Jefferson stated in one of the Federalist papers that "..no man shall be disbarred from owning a firearm..." or something to that effect.


Geez, did I get THAT one wrong!

Jefferson did not have a hand in the Federalist papers. Jefferson said that in his draft of the Virginia Constitution:

"No freeman shall be debarred the use of arms (within his own lands or tenements)."
--Thomas Jefferson: Draft Virginia Constitution with (his note added), 1776. Papers, 1:353

Madison was a federalist, along with Hamilton, et al. However, my points with the anti-Federalists still stand.

Lastly, none of Madison's or Jefferson's often quoted statements made the final cut.
DaytonRocker
QUOTE
Something interesting happened yesterday.....99.98% of armed American citizens harmed no one with their firearms


That is an excellent statistic - until you get to the "population" portion.

.02% of 285,000,000 is 5,700,000. Statistically, there are the same amount of guns as there are people. So, almost 6 million people WERE harmed because of guns. That .02% doesn't look as small anymore.

That also discounts the 535,000 violent crimes committed by someone with a gun (meaning, the gun did nothing. But holding a gun to a person's head facilitated the crime).

But, let's look at knives. In my house, there are 3 of us and we have roughly 20 knives total in the kitchen (steak knives, butter knives, etc). Now, go to http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/weapons.htm and look at the difference in homicides by guns and knives. About 10 times the amount of knives (at least) are available to the same population with half to a third of the crime.

.02% of almost 300 million is a horrible statistic. Six million people may not be a lot to you, but I think that is genocide.
LFTHNDTHRDS
I agree 100% with you Dayton!
QUOTE
But, let's look at knives. In my house, there are 3 of us and we have roughly 20 knives total in the kitchen (steak knives, butter knives, etc). Now, go to http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/weapons.htm and look at the difference in homicides by guns and knives. About 10 times the amount of knives (at least) are available to the same population with half to a third of the crime.


Thank you for offering this spectacular arguement!

Following this statement to its logical conclusion, the more legal weapons one has, the less likely it is they will be used in a crime.

Proof? YOU OFFER IT YOURSELF!. Knives are not illegal. You yourself have 20. Why would someone attempt to rob, rape, or kill you with a knife? Kinda stupid huh?

However, in some areas, pistols are illegal. Good thing for a murderer to have. (From the murderer's point of view). Heck, they're illegal. Don't have to worry about the VICTIM shooting back! All he or she can legally have is a KNIFE!

Last time I checked, it was illegal to kill people. Since murderers don't really care, what makes you think they'll follow the gun laws?

Do you think John Hinkley really thought about what he was doing? I mean, owning a pistol in D.C. is illegal, not to mention carrying it CONCEALED. And he didn't even have a PERMIT! Man! The nerve of some criminals! They should pay closer attention to the laws!
gandalfh
It is incredible how people can't see how taking guns away from law abiding people results in more deaths because then only the police and criminals have guns.

It really is a no brainer. There are not very many police officers. There are a lot of criminals. There are FAR more law abiding citizens than police officers and criminals added together. You average law abiding citizen has a much better chance of being in the right place at the right time to prevent a crime, especially when they are the intended victim.

Number of times I have been saved by the police: NEVER. They almost always show up after the crime occurs. Except of course on television, which is where the liberals of this country get their votes, from people who think television is reality.
Number of times I have been saved by my .45: Once. I woke up to the sound of someone working the lock on my door, they didn't leave when I said "I'm calling the cops!" They continued working on the lock (it was slowly turning). They left in a hurry after I said "Leave now" followed by the sound of my .45 jacking a shell into the chamber.
DaytonRocker
The fatal flaw with your "if guns are outlawed, only outlaws would have guns" argument, is that you assume everybody is a decent law abiding citizen.

Nobody with half a brain has a problem with a decent responsible person owning a gun to defend themselves. That's not really much of an issue.

The problem is, this same "right" you claim you have covers all the irreponsible idiots as well. Here's a news flash: A person is not a criminal until AFTER a crime has been commited. Until then, they get to use that "right" to infringe on other's rights of basically, breathing.

Not to disappoint our astute math major, but my statistics show the opposite of what he/she claims. Guns are used disproportionally in violent crimes. Otherwise, we would have 10 times (or 20...depending on how many knives are in your house) the amount of violent crimes.

In any case, I do not beleive firearms should be outlawed. In fact, I beleive in conceal and carry and know that it is an effective deterrent of crime (contrary to what the gun grabbers will tell you).

I don't think it's too much to ask that a person show some reasonable proof that the guns they own are in safe hands. It's not a perfect system, but it beats letting anyone with a clean record and pulse from stockpiling all the weapons they want or giving them to their kids or criminals.
unabomber
with $1000 and a couple hours time I could have any thing from a simple .22 to an AR-15 (civy version of the m-16) gun laws only keep the guns out of the hands of law abiding citizens. look at britain: out lawed alomosst all guns (you can have certain target shooting pistols and rifils, but they must always be locked up and I think you have to keep them at the target range) violent crime rose by something like 400%! same as australia, and geuss what? criminals can still get guns in these countries! switzerland has a mandatory two year militia duty, and all males over the age of 18 are required to keep m-16s in their homes: breakins and violent crimes are nearly nonexsistant. or even look here at home: new york and LA have strict gun laws, yet gun violence is sky high in these cities. vermont, florida and others made it easy to get legal handguns, and allow concealed carry, and crime dropped dramaticly in these places.

also, why are gun crimes higher then knife crimes? well, I think Chris Rock nailed it on the head: any punk can fire from across the room, it takes a man to get close enough to stab!

oh and if gun ownership is a collective right, it is by default, an individual right (as it is many individuals that make up a collective) and if I cannot privately own guns, and neither can my neighbor or his neighbor, how can the collective own any guns? the state will provide them to the miliotia I guess you could say. but that isn't how a militia works: the militia provides itself with everything it needs to wage war: from clothes to packs, to food, to weapons; EVERYTHING. the militia is supposed to be able to fight all enemies foreign and domestic. they cannot do this if they must rely on the state for arms the state is an enemy to the people, like it is now? (you think they will let militia muster? hellllll no!)

I would bet a portion of that .02 percent were accidental shootings, people using their weapons in self defence, and of course some were shootings by criminals (at most 2 million are in the probably in the last catagory. likely lower) and he didn't say 99.98% of all gun owners harmed noone in a crime. (or put another .02% of gun owners harmed someone today for VARIOUS reasons)

amendment 2 explicity states "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" the "people" could mean one person, or all of them.
Hercules
Some law abiding, gun owning citizens also must be educated citizens. I'm not saying they must have a college education. When obtaining my CHL I had to take a gun safety course as well as a range test before I could qualify.

Many states now require a hunter's safety course before allowing a hunting license.

I prefer more educating and teaching over banning.
DaytonRocker
QUOTE
amendment 2 explicitly states "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" the "people" could mean one person, or all of them


No, it says "To ensure a well regulated militia" before the other stuff. I realize this is a deal breaker for you (and the reason the NRA leaves it out), but that's what it is.

The second amendment was written to prevent the federal government from disarming the state militias.

That is tough to dispute if you've actually studied the federalist AND anti-federalist papers. The second amendment, as written, was a compromise between the two.

So, in looking for a way to turn this into a right to mob rule and violently overthrow our government, we've went to "it depends on what the meaning of 'is' is" by attempting to redefine the militia.

The militia, at the time of the framing, was all able-bodied males between the ages of 18 and 45. Each was to be armed with specific items and train reguraly.

Well gee - that's tough now. Some of us can't spend a weekend a month training. Some of us are older than 45. Half of us are female. How do we fix that?

Easy. State that if you own a gun and don't belong to the national guard, are older than 45, or female, we belong to the UNORGANIZED militia!! Yippee!! Problem solved.

However, I'm still waiting on how simply owning a gun is well regulated. Something tells me, I'll be waiting for a while.
Izdaari
Didn't read this link earlier, did you? Ok, here it is again.

The Unabridged Second Amendment by J. Neil Schulman.
DaytonRocker
Your sources:
J. Neil Schulman - award-winning author of novels


My sources:

The most conservative judges I could find:
"[The] National Rifle Association is always arguing that the Second Amendment determines the right to bear arms. But I think it really is the people's right to bear arms in a militia. The NRA thinks it protects their right to have Teflon-coated bullets. But that's not the original understanding. - Robert H. Bork, former Federal Appeals Court Judge (Distinguished Lecture Series, UC Irvine, 3/14/89) "

The Second Amendment “has been the subject of one of the greatest pieces of fraud, I repeat the word ‘fraud’, on the American public by special interest groups that I have ever seen in my lifetime.”
- Warren Burger, former U.S. Supreme Court Chief Justice


And then, all the other judges who, just like Judge Bork and Cheif Justice Marshall, seem to lack as much legal knowledge as Schulman

COURT DECISIONS SUPPORTING THE MILITIA
INTERPRETATION OF THE SECOND AMENDMENT

U.S. SUPREME COURT
U.S. v. Miller, 307 U.S. 174 (1939)
Lewis v. United States, 445 U.S. 55 (1980)

U.S. COURTS OF APPEALS
U.S. v. Wright, 117 F.3d 1265 (11th Cir.), cert. denied, 522 U.S. 1007 (1997)
U.S. v. Baer, 235 F.2d 561 (10th Cir. 2000)
U.S. v. Oakes, 564 F.2d 384 (10th Cir. 1977), cert. denied, 435 U.S. 926 (1978)
U.S. v. Swinton, 521 F.2d 1255 (10th Cir. 1975), cert. denied, 424 U.S. 918 (1976)
U.S. v. Hancock, 231 F.3d 557 (9th Cir. 2000), cert. denied, 121 S. Ct. 1641 (2001)
U.S. v. Finitz, 234 F.3d 1278 (9th Cir. 2000), cert. denied, 121 S. Ct. 833 (2001)
Hickman v. Block, 81 F.3d 98 (9th Cir.), cert. denied, 519 U.S. 912 (1996)
U.S. v. Lewis, 236 F.3d 948 (8th Cir. 2001)
U.S . Farrell, 69 F.3d 891 (8th Cir. 1995)
U.S. v. Hale, 978 F.2d 1016 (8th Cir. 1992), cert. denied, 507 U.S. 997 (1993)
U.S. v. Nelsen, 859 F.2d 1318 (8th Cir. 1988)
Cody v. U.S., 460 F.2d 34 (8th Cir.), cert. denied, 409 U.S. 1010 (1972)
U.S. v. Decker, 446 F.2d 164 (8th Cir. 1971)
U.S. v. Synnes, 438 F.2d 764 (8th Cir. 1971), vacated on other grounds, 404 U.S. 1009 (1972)
Gillespie v. City of Indianapolis, 185 F.3d 693 (7th Cir. 1999), cert. denied, 528 U.S. 1116
(2000)
Quilici v. Village of Morton Grove, 695 F.2d 261 (7th Cir. 1982), cert. denied, 464 U.S. 863
(1983)
U.S. v. McCutcheon, 446 F.2d 133 (7th Cir. 1971)
U.S. v. Napier, 233 F.3d 394 (6th Cir. 2000)
U.S. v. Warin, 530 F.2d 103 (6th Cir.), cert. denied, 426 U.S. 948 (1976)
U.S. v. Day, 476 F.2d 562 (6th Cir. 1973)
Stevens v. U.S., 440 F.2d 144 (6th Cir. 1971)
U.S. v. Johnson, Jr., 441 F.2d 1134 (5th Cir. 1971)
Love v. Pepersack, 47 F.3d 120 (4th Cir.), cert. denied, 516 U.S. 813 (1995)
U.S. v. Johnson, 497 F.2d 548 (4th Cir. 1974)
U.S. v. Rybar, 103 F.3d 273 (3rd Cir. 1996), cert. denied, 522 U.S. 807 (1997)
U.S. v. Graves, 554 F.2d 65 (3rd Cir. 1977)
Eckert v. City of Philadelphia, 477 F.2d 610 (3rd Cir.), cert. denied, 414 U.S. 839 (1973)
U.S. v. Tot , 131 F.2d 261 (3rd Cir. 1942), rev'd on other grounds, 319 U.S. 463 (1943)
U.S. v. Toner, 728 F.2d 115 (2d Cir. 1984)
U.S. v. Friel, 1 F.3d 1231 (1st Cir. 1993)
Thomas v. City Council of Portland, 730 F.2d 41 (1st Cir. 1984)
U.S. v. Cases, 131 F.2d 916 (1st Cir. 1942), cert. denied sub nom., Velazquez v. U.S., 319 U.S.
770 (1943)

U.S. FEDERAL DISTRICT COURTS
Golt v. City of Signal Hill, 132 F. Supp. 2d 1271 (C.D. Cal. 2001)
Olympic Arms v. Magaw, 91 F. Supp. 2d 1061 (E.D. Mich. 2000)
U.S. v. Willbern, 2000 WL 554134 (D. Kan. Apr. 12, 2000)
U.S. v. Bournes, 105 F. Supp. 2d 736 (E.D. Mich. 2000)
U.S. v. Boyd, 52 F. Supp. 2d 1233 (D. Kan. 1999), aff’d, 211 F.3d 1279 (10th Cir. 2000)
U.S. v. Henson, 55 F. Supp. 2d 528 (S.D. W. Va. 1999)
U.S. v. Visnich, 65 F. Supp. 2d 669 (N.D. Ohio 1999)
U.S. v. Caron, 941 F. Supp. 238 (D. Mass. 1996)
Moscowitz v. Brown, 850 F.Supp. 1185 (S.D.N.Y. 1994)
U.S. v. Kruckel, 1993 WL 765648 (D.N.J. Aug. 13, 1993)
Krisko v. Oswald, 655 F. Supp. 147 (E.D. Pa. 1987)
U.S. v. Kozerski, 518 F.Supp. 1082 (D.N.H. 1981), cert. denied, 496 U.S. 842 (1984)
Vietmanese Fishermen's Association v. KKK, 543 F.Supp. 198 (S.D. Tex. 1982)
Thompson v. Dereta, 549 F.Supp. 297 (D. Utah 1982)
U.S. v. Kraase, 340 F.Supp. 147 (E.D. Wis. 1972)
U.S. v. Gross, 313 F.Supp. 1330. (S.D. Ind. 1970), aff'd on other grounds, 451 F.2d 1355 (7th
Cir. 1971)

STATE COURTS
Arnold v. Cleveland, 616 N.E.2d 163 (Ohio 1993)
State v. Fennell, 382 S.E.2d 231 (N.C. 1989)
U.S. v. Sandidge, 520 A.2d 1057 (D.C.), cert. denied, 108 S.Ct. 193 (1987)
Kalodimos v. Village of Morton Grove, 470 N.E.2d 266 (Ill. 1984)
Masters v. State, 653 S.W.2d 944 (Tex.App. 1983)
City of East Cleveland v. Scales, 460 N.E.2d 1126 (Ohio App. 1983)
State v. Vlacil, 645 P.2d 677 (Utah 1982)
In Re Atkinson, 291 N.W.2d 396 (Minn. 1980)
State v. Rupp, 282 N.W.2d 125 (Iowa 1979)
Commonwealth v. Davis, 343 N.E.2d 847 (Mass. 1976)
Burton v. Sills, 248 A.2d 521 (N.J. 1968), appeal dismissed, 394 U.S. 812 (1969)
Harris v. State, 432 P.2d 929 (Nev. 1967)
Izdaari
Instead of attacking the author of the article, how about dealing with the material presented therein, hmm? He may not be any kind of authority but the point of it is that he consulted an eminent authority and presented what that authority said, the substance of which you apparently don't want to deal with.


QUOTE
[Copperud:] "The words 'A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state,' contrary to the interpretation cited in your letter of July 26, 1991, constitutes a present participle, rather than a clause. It is used as an adjective, modifying 'militia,' which is followed by the main clause of the sentence (subject 'the right', verb 'shall'). The to keep and bear arms is asserted as an essential for maintaining a militia.

"In reply to your numbered questions:

[Schulman:] "(1) Can the sentence be interpreted to grant the right to keep and bear arms solely to 'a well-regulated militia'?"

[Copperud:] "(1) The sentence does not restrict the right to keep and bear arms, nor does it state or imply possession of the right elsewhere or by others than the people; it simply makes a positive statement with respect to a right of the people."

[Schulman:] "(2) Is 'the right of the people to keep and bear arms' granted by the words of the Second Amendment, or does the Second Amendment assume a preexisting right of the people to keep and bear arms, and merely state that such right 'shall not be infringed'?"

[Copperud:] "(2) The right is not granted by the amendment; its existence is assumed. The thrust of the sentence is that the right shall be preserved inviolate for the sake of ensuring a militia."

[Schulman:] "(3) Is the right of the people to keep and bear arms conditioned upon whether or not a well regulated militia, is, in fact necessary to the security of a free State, and if that condition is not existing, is the statement 'the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed' null and void?"

[Copperud:] "(3) No such condition is expressed or implied. The right to keep and bear arms is not said by the amendment to depend on the existence of a militia. No condition is stated or implied as to the relation of the right to keep and bear arms and to the necessity of a well-regulated militia as a requisite to the security of a free state. The right to keep and bear arms is deemed unconditional by the entire sentence."

[Schulman:] "(4) Does the clause 'A well-regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,' grant a right to the government to place conditions on the 'right of the people to keep and bear arms,' or is such right deemed unconditional by the meaning of the entire sentence?"

[Copperud:] "(4) The right is assumed to exist and to be unconditional, as previously stated. It is invoked here specifically for the sake of the militia."

[Schulman:] "(5) Which of the following does the phrase 'well-regulated militia' mean: 'well-equipped', 'well-organized,' 'well-drilled,' 'well-educated,' or 'subject to regulations of a superior authority'?"

[Copperud:] "(5) The phrase means 'subject to regulations of a superior authority;' this accords with the desire of the writers for civilian control over the military."

[Schulman:] "(6) (If at all possible, I would ask you to take account the changed meanings of words, or usage, since that sentence was written 200 years ago, but not take into account historical interpretations of the intents of the authors, unless those issues can be clearly separated."

[Copperud:] "To the best of my knowledge, there has been no change in the meaning of words or in usage that would affect the meaning of the amendment. If it were written today, it might be put: "Since a well-regulated militia is necessary tot he security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be abridged.'

[Schulman:] "As a 'scientific control' on this analysis, I would also appreciate it if you could compare your analysis of the text of the Second Amendment to the following sentence,

"A well-schooled electorate, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and read Books, shall not be infringed.'

"My questions for the usage analysis of this sentence would be,

"(1) Is the grammatical structure and usage of this sentence and the way the words modify each other, identical to the Second Amendment's sentence?; and

"(2) Could this sentence be interpreted to restrict 'the right of the people to keep and read Books' only to 'a well-educated electorate' — for example, registered voters with a high-school diploma?"

[Copperud:] "(1) Your 'scientific control' sentence precisely parallels the amendment in grammatical structure.

"(2) There is nothing in your sentence that either indicates or implies the possibility of a restricted interpretation."

Professor Copperud had only one additional comment, which he placed in his cover letter: "With well-known human curiosity, I made some speculative efforts to decide how the material might be used, but was unable to reach any conclusion."

So now we have been told by one of the top experts on American usage what many knew all along: the Constitution of the United States unconditionally protects the people's right to keep and bear arms, forbidding all governments formed under the Constitution from abridging that right.


As for the rest of the argument from authority...

Bork is certainly a conservative but a peculiar authoritarian kind of conservative. Which is not to say he's not a fine legal mind, but hardly someone I'd find politically sympatico. If Burger was a conservative at all, he was a Jerry Ford kind of conservative.

I am aware of the cases, but I hardly see a point to merely producing a list of cases.
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