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Billy Jean
http://www.dailybulletin.com/news/ci_3430815

QUOTE
Police face Mexican military, smugglers

Mexican soldiers and civilian smugglers had an armed standoff with nearly 30 U.S. law enforcement officials on the Rio Grande in Texas on Monday afternoon, according to Texas police and the FBI.
Mexican military Humvees were towing what appeared to be thousands of pounds of marijuana across the border into the United States, said Chief Deputy Mike Doyal, of the Hudspeth County Sheriff's Department.

Mexican Army troops had several mounted machine guns on the ground more than 200 yards inside the U.S. border -- near Neely's Crossing, about 50 miles east of El Paso -- when Border Patrol agents called for backup. Hudspeth County deputies and Texas Highway patrol officers arrived shortly afterward, Doyal said.

"It's been so bred into everyone not to start an international incident with Mexico that it's been going on for years," Doyal said. "When you're up against mounted machine guns, what can you do? Who wants to pull the trigger first? Certainly not us."

An FBI spokeswoman confirmed the incident happened at 2:15 p.m. Pacific Time.


What is it going to take for the government to secure our border with Mexico?

What is the solution to maintain a secure boarder?

Do you consider the actions of "renegade" Mexican military units an 'act of war' or just a sign of their governments lack of control of it's forces?
Google
deathalive
QUOTE
What is it going to take for the government to secure our border with Mexico?


Seeing as how I live not 200 miles from the border, I have to say that our side has plenty of force and is gaining more everyday. It is the mexican side that needs a little bit of reinforcement.

QUOTE
What is the solution to maintain a secure boarder?


There is no set solution to keep a totally secure border. Neither side has the manpower for that. But If both sides give a little its better than one side trying to hold all the weight.

QUOTE
Do you consider the actions of "renegade" Mexican military units an 'act of war' or just a sign of their governments lack of control of it's forces?


Now here we have a failure to communicate. My cnn.com report says that they were merely men dressed as army soldiers. We don't know for sure that they were really soldiers. So I can't say that it was "renegade" action or an act of war.
aevans176
QUOTE(Billy Jean @ Jan 24 2006, 01:14 PM)
What is it going to take for the government to secure our border with Mexico?

What is the solution to maintain a secure boarder?

Do you consider the actions of "renegade" Mexican military units an 'act of war' or just a sign of their governments lack of control of it's forces?

*



I think that I'm nearly neck deep in disgust for the Mexican government, considering the millions of dollars in Aid that we send each year.

Being a Marine reservist in Dallas, I can tell you that there had to be a deployable unit within a short flight's distance of the border. The military works nearly completely off contingency plans of just this nature. I personally don't know who or where from... but by the tone of the article, you'd believe that this has been discussed once or twice.

In this circumstance, I believe that we should've deployed a Nat'l guard unit/Regular Military unit to disperse of the Mexican Military vehicles and personnel. The border patrol units should've called for back up, and a gun ship should've been called in to use force in the face of the armed standoff.... a message has to be sent. Vincente Fox needs to know that if they don't take "care of this", his people will be handled in a less than amicable fashion.

If the Mexican vehicles knew that the border patrol meant business, and that they wouldn't/couldn't be bullied, I imagine that there would be a more sincere reverence for the border and such types of action.
Ted
QUOTE
What is it going to take for the government to secure our border with Mexico?


What is the solution to maintain a secure boarder?

Do you consider the actions of "renegade" Mexican military units an 'act of war' or just a sign of their governments lack of control of it's forces?


Clearly we will have to use the military to secure the border. The fact that the Mexican military is a s corrupt as the Mexican Police and the Mexican government in general should be no surprise to us. I would consider this situation very seriously and put Mexico on notice that the next time there is this type of incursion by their Military (renegade or not) we will respond with our full military capability.


I think the Mexican government knows all about this practice and is complicit with it just as they are regarding illegal aliens crossing the border.
Blackstone
What is it going to take for the government to secure our border with Mexico?

What is the solution to maintain a secure boarder?


The most important thing we need to do is make it absolutely clear that no guest worker program will allow illegal aliens already in the country to sign up and participate here. Any guest worker proposal must only be made available to people in their own countries, so that they have an incentive not to jump the border. Obviously, many desperate people will still try, but not everyone who crosses into the country from Mexico does so because he's desperate. If we can reduce the number by providing disincentives, that will make it easier for the Border Patrol to control those who are left, and hopefully that should have a snowball effect.

We also should increase funding for the Border Patrol. We can take it from the TSA (Thousands Standing Around), whose main contribution to airline security has been to make passengers' lives more miserable, and not much else.

Do you consider the actions of "renegade" Mexican military units an 'act of war' or just a sign of their governments lack of control of it's forces?

It may not have been officially authorized by the Mexican government, but I don't think they're really all that eager to do anything about it either. But either way, it was unacceptable, and if it happens again, we're justified in responding in a way that Mexico won't like.
Stefan Fargus
What is it going to take for the government to secure our border with Mexico?

Lobby Reform. Until the power of lobbyists in Washington is depleted to a great extent, those that lobby against border protections will continue to have their way. The companies that they represent hire cheap, foreign labor, and they'll go to great lengths to ensure they have a steady supply of it, legal or not.

What is the solution to maintain a secure boarder?

Technology. Infrared sensing devices can be placed along the borders (note the pluralization) to monitor for illegal crossing and dispatch local authorities accordingly. This, in addition to stepped up patrols, and even local militias under strict regulation would be more than adequate in stemming the flow of illegal aliens over the border. Fencing is an empty, overpriced pork deal for a big contractor, and little more, in my opinion. It will accomplish nothing, as it has in areas that are already fenced along the border that are riddled with openings and holes dug beneath them.

Do you consider the actions of "renegade" Mexican military units an 'act of war' or just a sign of their governments lack of control of it's forces?

I think to suggest that it's an act of war might be a bit strong, but it would be fair to say that such actions will likely serve to further strain relations between our country and theirs. It would not be the least bit surprising to find out that the government of Mexico knows about and condones the activity of their military units because they know they'll continue to get away with it.

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It should be mentioned that the incident you refer to is not at all unique. According to Lou Dobbs Tonight on CNN, incursions onto American soil by the Mexican military have occurred more than 200 times. Sadly, I couldn't find anything on his website specifically mentioning this, but I did find this article that mentions it: Here

QUOTE
The Inland Valley Daily Bulletin of Ontario, Calif., reported Tuesday that the incident included an armed standoff involving the Mexican military and suspected drug smugglers. The incident follows a story in the Bulletin on Jan. 15 that said the Mexican military had crossed into the United States more than 200 times since 1996.


Something needs to be done a decade or more ago about this problem. Our elected officials seem unwilling to do anything about it to this day, despite an overwhelming, national majority that wants to see our borders secured. If they don't do something about it before November, it's likely that a large number of them are going to find themselves joining the ranks of the unemployed.

Polls regarding immigration here.
Ted
QUOTE
What is it going to take for the government to secure our border with Mexico?
stefan

Lobby Reform. Until the power of lobbyists in Washington is depleted to a great extent, those that lobby against border protections will continue to have their way. The companies that they represent hire cheap, foreign labor, and they'll go to great lengths to ensure they have a steady supply of it, legal or not.

It may not be that simple. Lots of people take advantage to cheap “under the table” labor including our Congress people. Here is an interesting perspective.

Why Journalists Support Illegal Immigration
By Reed Irvine and Cliff Kincaid | March 5, 2003
More and more people in higher paying jobs can now afford to hire immigrants who will work for below the minimum wage
Michael Lind says journalists do not oppose illegal immigration because they benefit from it. Lind, a senior fellow at the New America Foundation, said journalists belong to an affluent class in America that employs immigrant maids, nannies and gardeners. "People like me are the great beneficiaries of this," he said "There's a buyers' market in inexpensive unskilled labor…"

http://www.aim.org/media_monitor/A402_0_2_0_C/
Centurion
While some would argue that immigrants are just coming to seek a better life, they are usually the ones enslaving them. The poor immigrants are being duped by the rich into coming here.
Jaime
QUOTE(Centurion @ Feb 9 2006, 09:20 PM)
While some would argue that immigrants are just coming to seek a better life, they are usually the ones enslaving them. The poor immigrants are being duped by the rich into coming here.
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Welcome. We discourage posting one-liners, as they are not constructive. Please bring substance to the debates. Thanks.

Topics:

What is it going to take for the government to secure our border with Mexico?

What is the solution to maintain a secure boarder?

Do you consider the actions of "renegade" Mexican military units an 'act of war' or just a sign of their governments lack of control of it's forces?

George
What is it going to take for the government to secure our border with Mexico?Well, being that 10 of the 80 million people of Mexico are already here, I would say it is too late for that. It may very well be an idea to ask Mexico to cede to our union as a territory with the incentive of becoming states.

What is the solution to maintain a secure boarder?If we are to truly shut down the border, the fastest method and being we are at war and who knows who is crossing, would be to place the military along the border.

Do you consider the actions of "renegade" Mexican military units an 'act of war' or just a sign of their governments lack of control of it's forces?Yes, as I cannot see any excuse being provided for the loss of control of the Mexican military having a reasonable value. if the government of Mexico cannot control their own military then why should be trust them in any matter. Regardless of whether Mexico is actually attacking our states or is unable to control the attacking of our states, it is an act of war on the sovereignty of our constitution and thus it is mandatory that our federal government respond in kind. Being the order states are having to call up their army to protect their state is a clear indicator of the federal government not fulfilling the constitutional mandate of protecting each state from invasion. Are we so far down the road of ignoring the constitution that we are accepting the ignoring as law?
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bucket
I think I might be all alone in my opinion at ad.gif on this topic.

I am a big proponent of free and fair trade, and I do not believe that people should be excluded from this concept.

To me to take a liberal and progressive view of trade one must also do so for migration.

I am for open borders so I don't feel further restriction is the answer.

Sleeper
QUOTE(bucket @ Feb 11 2006, 12:43 PM)
I think I might be all alone in my opinion at ad.gif on this topic.

I am a big proponent of free and fair trade, and I do not believe that people should be excluded from this concept.

To me to take a liberal and progressive view of trade one must also do so for migration.

I am for open borders so I don't feel further restriction is the answer.
*



But Bucket don't you think that the radical arm of Islam would use an open border to get into our contry and as a means to smuggle in weapons to achieve their war against us?
skeeterses
What is it going to take for the government to secure our border with Mexico?
Given the flow of illegal immigrants that come to America, I think we would have to resort to Draconian measures to secure the border. Draconian measures could include planting landmines and shooting illegal immigrants on sight. If the Federal Government continues turning a blind eye to the illegal immigrants, eventually angry unemployed Americans are going to start using deadly force against the illegal immigrants.
bucket
QUOTE(Sleeper)
But Bucket don't you think that the radical arm of Islam would use an open border to get into our contry and as a means to smuggle in weapons to achieve their war against us?


I think Jihadists exploit all freedoms we have in our societies in order to wage war against us...but I don't feel we should always consider their desires or objective when shaping and constructing our own desires and objectives for the future.

I think our best defense against the Islamofascists is to defend ourselves against their vision of the world, which does not include the mixing and free association of the people of the world.
Ted
QUOTE
Bucket
To me to take a liberal and progressive view of trade one must also do so for migration.

I am for open borders so I don't feel further restriction is the answer.


Does this mean you favor completely open borders? If this was the case our population today could be over 500 million easily. And with no restrictions we would have no control as well.

How would we support and pay for this type of migration? No country in the world does this. Over and above the cost is the security issue. Not enforcing our laws could cost us many lives.


This study is one of the first to estimate the total impact of illegal immigration on the federal budget. Most previous studies have focused on the state and local level and have examined only costs or tax payments, but not both. Based on Census Bureau data, this study finds that, when all taxes paid (direct and indirect) and all costs are considered, illegal households created a net fiscal deficit at the federal level of more than $10 billion in 2002. We also estimate that, if there was an amnesty for illegal aliens, the net fiscal deficit would grow to nearly $29 billion.

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

Then add to this the cost to STATES:

Cost of illegal immigration in California estimated at nearly $9 billion

By: EDWARD SIFUENTES - Staff Writer
California's nearly 3 million illegal immigrants cost taxpayers nearly $9 billion each year, according to a new report released last week by the Federation for American Immigration Reform, a Washington, D.C.-based group that promotes stricter immigration policies.

Educating the children of illegal immigrants is the largest cost, estimated at $7.7 billion each year, according to the report. Medical care for illegal immigrants and incarceration of those who have committed crimes are the next two largest expenses measured in the study, the author said.
Pro-immigrant groups and Latino researchers dispute the federation's findings, calling them biased and incomplete.

Jack Martin, who wrote the report, said Thursday that the $9 billion figure does not include other expenses that are difficult to measure, such as special English instruction, school lunch programs, and welfare benefits for American workers displaced by illegal immigrant workers.
http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2004/12/06...6_5812_5_04.txt

The chilling costs of illegal migration reach like an octopus into every aspect of our lives. Illegal aliens displaced American workers at a cost in excess of $133 billion dollars last year according to Harvard Professor George Borjas.
http://www.newswithviews.com/Wooldridge/frosty2.htm




bucket
QUOTE(Ted @ Feb 13 2006, 09:27 PM)
 

Does this mean you favor completely open borders?  If this was the case our population today could be over 500 million easily.  And with no restrictions we would have no control as well.   
 
How would we support and pay for this type of migration?  No country in the world does this.  Over and above the cost is the security issue.  Not enforcing our laws could cost us many lives.   





It is funny I used to debate this topic a lot at another site and still years later the same info is cited. Borjas is misquoted and misrepresented a lot.

I think your argument mostly embraces or pushes forward the idea that welfare is bad, or the welfare state is costly. I don't really feel it is so much an argument against free immigration but instead focuses on the costs of welfare.

I understand that in order for a open immigration to work, that it would have to be constructed and applied much like a free trade agreement.

Are you against free trade Ted? If not I am curious how you separate the two.

Ted
QUOTE
Bucket
Are you against free trade Ted? If not I am curious how you separate the two.


Actually I am not at all against free trade Bucket nor am I against immigration. All of us have immigrants in our family trees. What I am against is illegal and unrestricted immigration.

We need to do what most countries in the world do including Canada and all of Europe. That is to be selective about who we let in, and this does not mean we only let in college grads either but it does mean that we don’t have an open border.

Canada restricts entry and actually advertises around the world for the skilled people it needs. We on the other hand ignore millions of unskilled illegal aliens coming into the country while the better folks wait in line.

I am really angry that Mexico actually encourages their people to come to this country illegally.

A Mexican government agency is to issue some 70,000 maps marking main roads and water tanks for people wanting to cross illegally into the US. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2006/01/25/m...he_n_14433.html
In early 2005 this same government-funded agency distributed 1.5 million comic book-style pamphlets for illegals that give them safety tips on how to safely cross the desert into the U.S. Detractors of this Mexican government policy ask the obvious question: What is next; Will the Mexican government now start buying illegal aliens, once they are inside the U.S., bus tickets to California, New York and Florida?
http://freedomfolks.blogspot.com/2006/01/m...mmigration.html

What is happening here is WE are paying to support the poor in Mexico while their government does little to deal with the problem. They are exporting their poverty, and sometimes crime, to the US. It has to STOP.
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