QUOTE(TruthMarch @ Feb 22 2006, 05:25 PM)
I've never said the holocaust didn't happen. I certainly never claimed that Jews weren't made to suffer in WW2. But there is no concrete evidence that there were systematic murders in any 'gas chambers'. None. The Russians made the holes in the ceiling. After the war. The Jewish people even say so themselves.
I guess it falls to me to show you the error of your ways.
Let me start by saying, without exaggeration, that you are completely, utterly and staggeringly wrong. Wrong with a capital W, wrong in so enormous and vast a manner that I can only assume you have made literally no attempt to ever learn anything about the topic at hand.
You say there is no evidence that there was systematic murder in any gas chambers. Well, not only is there concrete evidence, there is VAST AMOUNTS of concrete evidence. Staggering, mutually supporting reams of proof from dozens of different sources using a dozen different methods.
Let us start with the most obvious:
-The Gas chambers themselves.
Yes they exist, though they were partially destroyed by the retreating germans in an attempt to hide their crime, they did a pretty poor job. You make the staggeringly wrong claim that 'the jews' admit the Russians made holes in the ceilings after the war. Firstly, please find me ANY source anywhere to back up that absurdly fasle statement. Secondly, if the holes in the ceilings were made after the war, then why do they appear in wartime pictures of the camp? Why do their appear in the original design blueprints of the chambers?
We have unimpeachable forensic proof from the gas chambers, Zyclon-b residue in the walls, we also have hundreds of the mobile gas vans used by the Nazis, purpose built with only one possible use. We have pictures taken from the day of liberation which include a vast pile of empty Zyklon-B canisters over 10 feet high.
-Next, we have the Nazis record keeping.
The Nazis were quite meticulous about the number of people they killed, we have exact death rated in the death camps for 1943 and early 1944. (By Mid 1944 things were starting to fall apart, and some of those record were destroyed) We know exactly how many were killed, we know excatly the weight of hair and gold fillings recovered. Personal items of value were removed and inventoried, and were distributed to the troops. We have the memorandum from Hitler statng that the Waffen SS should get priority for these items. We have train schedules and inventories of people arriving at the camps, how many alive, how many arrived dead. We have letters from the commanders of the Einsatzgruppen writing about numbers shot and killed. We have requests to increase crematoria capacity it Birkinau because people were being gassed faster than they could burned. This is all in chapter and verse, almost all of it came up at the Nuremburg trials, and (most importantly) all has been corroborated by Nazis who were present.
-Which brings us to the next bit of proof: Eyewitness testimony.
We don’t have a couple of shady Jews who are telling some things they saw. We have the corroborated testimony of tens of thousands of survivors, and not just Jews but Homosexuals and communists. We have testimony of survivors, but we also have testimony of Kapos and Senior prisoners, usually non-Jewish prisoners who did the dirty jobs like removing the bodies from the gas chambers after death. We have tens of thousand of people who survived the system, all saying the same thing about what they went through and what they saw and experienced, including Jews and non-Jews.
But if you are one of those nut-jobs who thinks the ‘testemony’ is all some massive Jewish conspiracy (and ignore the non-Jewish survivors) we also have the testimony of American, Soviet and British soldiers who discovered the camps. We have now-unsealed secret reports from Soviet Commissars to higher command and Stalin himself about what they saw, written at the time in the field.
But just in case you think the international Jewish conspiracy (whatever that is) got to all those people too, we have the testimony of the ONE group we can be sure the Jews did not influence, the Nazis themselves. Camp guards, members of SS Totemkopf, camp doctors and nurses, up to and including the Commandant of Auyswitz-Birkinau himself, Rudolf Hoess. What does this man, SS-Obersturmbannführer and personal friend of Eichmann have to say about Aushwitz?
“I have been constantly associated with the administration of concentration camps since 1934, serving at Dachau until 1938; then as Adjutant in Sachsenhausen from 1938 to 1 May 1940, when I was appointed Commandant of Auschwitz.. I commanded Auschwitz until 1 December 1943, and estimate that at least 2,500,000 victims were executed and exterminated there by gassing and burning, and at least another half million succumbed to starvation and disease making a total dead of about 3,000,000. This figure represents about 70 or 80 percent of all persons sent to Auschwitz as prisoners, the remainder having been selected and used for slave labor in the concentration camp industries; included among the executed and burned were approximately 20,000 Russian prisoners of war (previously screened out of prisoner-of-war cages by the Gestapo) who were delivered at Auschwitz in Wehrmacht transports operated by regular Wehrmacht officers and men.”
Hoess is not the only Nazi to confirm this of course, there have been hundreds, all telling the same thing, some speaking with a great deal of pride in their accomplishments. Among them is none other than the Reich Economics Minister, Albert Speer, who spoke following his trial about the Holocaust and its methodology.
-But wait, there’s more. We have the planning documents and origins of the Holocaust.
On January, 20, 1942, Reinhard Heydrich, Himmler's second in command of the SS organization, convened a conference in the Berlin suburb of Wannsee. At the meeting, 15 top Nazi bureaucrats and members of the SS met to coordinate the "Final Solution" in which the Nazis would attempt to exterminate the 11 million Jews of Europe and the Soviet Union. The exact minutes of the conference were kept, in which they discussed the means by which the Jews would be killed, in what order and within what limits if any.
They actually discussed other less extreme options first, like forced emigration and sterilisation, but these were dismissed as being impractical and insufficiently permanent. They discussed what would be done with half-Jews, and Jews married to Aryan Germans. They laid out in great detail their plans for the extermination of European Jewry. We have it all, confirmed by every single surviving member of the meeting at the end of the war.
-Oh but wait, I’m not done. We have the planning and experimentation for killing methodology.
Nobody knew how exactly to kill the Jews, shootings were expensive and caused mental collapse in some soldiers, and the Gas vans were not large enough in scale. So a series of well documented tests were doe on prisoners of war and the handicapped. Most of these experiments took place in Occupied Belarus in late 1941. Dynamite was tried, then various different kinds of chemicals, the requirements (which are all documented) were very specific, a repeatable method of killing large number of people at once, if necessary in a confined space. Zyklon B was one of the later gasses tried, and its success was referred to Heydrich, who then took it to the Wansee conference. We have the notes, expectations and orders as well as test results for all these trials, as well as the testimony of the surviving Germans who took part.
-Lastly, we have the intent and motive
, provided by none other than Herr Hitler himself… These are direct quotes, taken from his speeches or from Mein Kampf itself:"Once I really am in power, my first and foremost task will be the annihilation of the Jews. As soon as I have the power to do so, I will have gallows built in rows - at the Marienplatz in Munich, for example - as many as traffic allows.
Then the Jews will be hanged indiscriminately, and they will remain hanging until they stink; they will hang there as long as the principles of hygiene permit. As soon as they have been untied, the next batch will be strung up, and so on down the line, until the last Jew in Munich has been exterminated. Other cities will follow suit, precisely in this fashion, until all Germany has been completely cleansed of Jews."
Better still: I came to the conclusion that a campaign against the Jews would be as popular as it would be successful. There are few Germans who have not been vexed with the behavior of Jews or else have not suffered losses through them in some way or other. Disproportionately to their small number they account for an immense share of the German national wealth, which can just as easily be put to profitable use for the state and the general public as could the holdings of the monasteries, bishops, and nobility.
"Once the hatred and the battle against the Jews have been really stirred up, their resistance will necessarily crumble in the shortest possible time. They are totally defenseless, and no one will stand up to protect them. I will be their destruction”
Or how about this one from Himmler himself: It is a hard, tough task which demands the commitment of the whole person without regard to any difficulties that may arise. You will be given details by Sturmbannfuehrer Eichmann of the RSHA who will come to see you in the near future. The department taking part will be informed at the appropriate time. The Jews are the eternal enemies of the German people and must be exterminated. All Jews we can reach now, during the war, are to be exterminated without exception. If we do not succeed in destroying the biological basis of Jewry, some day the Jews will annihilate the German Volk.
So, rather than, what Truthmarch said, that there is NO evidence of gas chambers, there is in fact VOLUMINOUS proof of gas chambers, more proof than anyone with two brain cells to rub together could ever need. To even stand up in a public place and make such a comment shows off what can only be described as a staggering ignorance of the topic, one might even go so far as to presume a wilful and intentional ignorance.
There is not a reputable Historian on the planet who denies the holocaust either in substance, methodology or scale. That is because it is a matter of historical fact, proven over and over and over again in a dozen different ways.SO, for those of you who have said in this thread that there is no need to protect the Holocaust through law, that the truth will always win out over lies, I give you Exhibit A: TruthMarch