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moif
A man was kidnapped in France recently. His name was Ilan Halimi and he was a 23 year old Parisian Jew. For twenty days his captors tortured him until finally, after having tormented the man's family with numerous ransom demands and obsene anti semitic insults, they left his broken and burned, naked body tied to a tree, in public, for the Police to remove. Link.

If you haven't heard about this awful crime, then its probably because it is not being reported in the main stream European media. Indeed on the BBC you can read about all the terrible aspects of being a Muslim in the squalid ghettos of France or an African in Moscow, but you'll be hard pressed to find any mention of Ilan Halimi.

In fact, you'll be hard pressed to find much mention of anti Jewish crimes at all, unless of course the offender is a highly placed politician who has a voice too loud to ignore... but even then the incident receives very little attention.
Last year a Mosque in Sweden was found to be distributing Anti Jewish propaganda, tapes and literature but this news was not relayed to the general public outside of Sweden. Even here in Denmark where we have seen our own anti semitic attacks, the news of such crimes goes largely ignored.

Just over a year or so ago, the French Prime Minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin told Jewish community leaders 'not to worry about anti semitism. Not to be afraid'. He said this even as France was moving to ban Islamic satelite channels (including one owned and run by Hezbollah) for airing anti semtic programmes including a series based on the 'The Protocols of the Elders of Zion'. Link. Link.

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How serious is anti semitism in Europe today?

If, as the evidence suggests, the bulk of anti semitic crimes are being carried out by Muslims, just what responsibility does the rest of Europe bear?


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QUOTE(Hew York Sun)
...there is one part of what was once the West that Europeans loathe more than their own: the United States. Europe's largely unaccountable political class and the Islamists are brought together by a shared hostility to the United States. In fact, they tend to fear America far more than Al Qaeda. Western Europe's left-wing lumpen-intellectuals, Mr. Bawer notes, are "half in love with tyranny." The British House of Commons even gave a minute of silence for the memory of the slain Hamas leader Sheik Yassin. Anti-Americanism, Mr. Bawer and Ms. Berlinski note, is increasingly the political glue that holds Europe together,if only to repudiate the American cowboys who had the bad taste not only to liberate the Continent repeatedly but to surpass it in the process. Thus Europeans invariably defend antiquated labor practices that restrain job creation as an alternative to "the American [read: savage] condition."

Worse yet, criticism of Muslims - even when they engage in female genital mutilation, honor killings, or attacks on gays and Jews - is almost invariably defined as "Islamophobic."This has led the Danish journalist Helle Brix to comment bitterly, "If at some time in the not-too distant future fundamentalist Muslims began rounding up Jews, it would be racism to resist."
Link.

Is this perspective valid? Is Europe, gripped by anti semitic and anti American attitudes becoming an actual threat to the USA?

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Here is a PDF concerning European anti semtisim at some length for any one who requires further reading.
Google
Changeling
Do you believe there is a serious problem with anti semitism in Europe?

Being a "European", i have not heard nor seen anything regarding "anti semitism" in Europe. The only time i hear anyone talk about it, its usually americans wanting to insult Europeans for one reason or another (jealousy perhaps? who knows).

Of course we have our amount of crimes, but what i understand the entire of EU (450 million people) have less crime then the entire U.S (~300 million).


Europe do have a massive problem with the Muslims coming and destroying their host countries, yes, but this is another topic. (and related to Islam).

Is this perspective valid? Is Europe, gripped by anti semitic and anti American attitudes becoming an actual threat to the USA?

Well, if we dont stop the massive immigration of the parasites there will be no "western world" left. The muslims must be dealt with, either sent away from Europe, or forced to actually contribute to society. Unfortunately, this is not something they want to do, they want it like home (look at Iraq, and you get a clear picture).

I think the States should start accepting some Muslim immigrants for once. Perhaps then they would understand the problem.
Julian
How serious is anti semitism in Europe today?

Very serious. Depressingly, it's as serious as it ever has been - Jews have been persecuted, tortured, murdered and demonised by segments of society in Europe for at least a millennium. It's just on a smaller scale these days, as there are fewer Jews in Europe than there used to be (not just down to Hitler, though he was the nadir; pretty much every European culture has been beastly to it's Jewry at one time or another).

QUOTE
Indeed on the BBC you can read about all the terrible aspects of being a Muslim in the squalid ghettos of France or an African in Moscow, but you'll be hard pressed to find any mention of Ilan Halimi.


BBC coverage of this story. Your assertion in this particular case isn't really fair. Six stories on one murder abroad? The BBC are hardly part of the problem. If they were slow on the uptake, they were not much slower than you, moif.

If, as the evidence suggests, the bulk of anti semitic crimes are being carried out by Muslims, just what responsibility does the rest of Europe bear?

The equal enforcement of existing laws against all perpetrators of crimes against proerty and the person. Whether the victim is Jewish or not.

Is this perspective valid? Is Europe, gripped by anti semitic and anti American attitudes becoming an actual threat to the USA?

Before I go into details, I think anti-Semitism is a problem in Europe, and there's no denying that there are strong indications that white neo-Nazis are far less of a problem in this regard than some segments of Muslim Europe, purely because of the relative numbers involved.

But I'm not all that sure that this case is evidence that Europe is particularly gripped by anything. Islam is scarred by a strong anti-semitic element, certainly. There are people in Europe who are outright anti-American (just as there are anti-Europeans and anti-semites in the USA)

My own view is that Europe is a problem centre for this purely inasmuch as it's about the only place left in the world where large numbers of Muslims mix on a more-or-less equal footing with a smaller number of Jews. (The equality factor doesn't really happen so much in the middle East, which is part, but not all of, the problem in the first place.)

I think what this particular case also highlights is that Third World immigrants into Europe are not being well integrated (it looks like Cote d'Ivoire is the source of the gang who carried out this horrible murder, where just over a third of the population are Muslim, but two thirds are not. I haven't read anywhere what the religious affiliation of the lead suspect is yet, but then I'm being fed a blinkered anti-Semitic antiAmerican agenda by the BBC. Apparently wink.gif wink.gif ).

Europe is doing something wrong in the way it's immigration policy works, and too often we get situations where cultural traditions from the home nations are tolerated beyond sensibility. (Hence honour killings, gang rapes, and the well-rehearsed problems we've talked about before, but also the murdering and dismembering children and leaving them to float down the river of major cities because of superstitions about witchcraft in African Christians. There are problems of integration in Europe of immigrants. Period. Not just immigrant Muslims.)

There may be some things we can learn from the Ellis Island, expectation of integration that characterised American immigration in the 19th and 20th centuries. but even that wasn't entirely successful - the Mafia is a cultural tradition brought in from the home country that eluded the conforming influence of integration into America.

But to address the question, what I think is very widespread in Europe is a strong distaste and dislike for Zionism and the racial and religious segregation that modern Israeli Zionism espouses. And there are deep differences in opinion, some founded on real issues, and some on old-fashioned ignorance and prejudice, on both sides of the North Atlantic Ocean about the other side.

I think that this gives myriad false perspectives, including:
  • That anti-Zionism and a dislike for or criticism of the actions of the state of Israel are one and the same as virulent anti-Semitism.
  • To some immigrants whose opinions are straightforwardly anti-Semitic, that they will fit right in to a Europe that often loudly criticises Israel and Israelis
  • To many Americans, raised with "if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all", Europeans are not exclusively and unstintingly full of praise for America, therefore they must be anti-American
  • To Europeans unfamiliar with the US Republic structure, with it's electoral colleges and so on, that the the US government may not always, and maybe even usually does not, represent the views and opinions of the majority of ordinary Americans. This is more than a little hypocritical, as we're quite used to a disconnectedness between people and government this side of the pond. I think Europeans too often take an idealised view of the US aim for "government of the people, by the people, for the people", contrasts that with the often much messier and less lofty constitutions in Europe, and think that whatever the US government does or says must[/b] be the directly expressed will of the people. This is naive. But the other reason we do that is, of course, that Europeans are as ignorant and prejudiced as anyone else, they just have different culturally 'acceptable' way to express it, just as Muslims tend to anti-Semitism or anti-Westernism, Americans to whoever the government and media tell them is the national enemy [i]du jour, etc.
RedCedar
I'm not European so I have no idea.

From what I understand, France is like 10% Muslim right? So it doesn't surprise me that that would happen in Paris of all places.

The one incident recently that I can remember of Jews being attacked in the US was by an Arab in California. But then again, there was a Jew who was planning on bombing a mosque in the USA as well. So go figure.

There's always some background noise of antisemitism in the US as well. I don't know how bad it is in Europe, but with the larger, more violent muslims that are present in Europe I can understand why there may be more antisemitism.

Using one incident in Paris, in a country that has so many muslims (notably ARABS), is hardly proof that anti-semitism is horrible in Europe.

I could use this story to show how bad the Israelis are and how anti-americanism may be a problem in Israel:

American Woman Killed by Israeli Bulldozer

The murder of Rachel Corrie is tragic. She was an American activist committed to peace and justice throughout the world. Her family stated that, "Rachel was filled with love and a sense of duty to her fellow man, wherever they lived. And, she gave her life trying to protect those that are unable to protect themselves."

Demand an investigation!

The tragic event was photographed >>


Rachel Corrie Killed
Sleeper
QUOTE(RedCedar @ Feb 25 2006, 08:25 AM)
I could use this story to show how bad the Israelis are and how anti-americanism may be a problem in Israel:

American Woman Killed by Israeli Bulldozer

The murder of Rachel Corrie is tragic. She was an American activist committed to peace and justice throughout the world. Her family stated that, "Rachel was filled with love and a sense of duty to her fellow man, wherever they lived. And, she gave her life trying to protect those that are unable to protect themselves."

Demand an investigation!

The tragic event was photographed >>


Rachel Corrie Killed
*



This story is completely detached from the one Moif posted. This woman put herself in harms way by sitting in front of bulldozers and being told to leave the area. The man in moifs story was kidnapped, abused, and burned... big difference. Also there are different stories from different eye witnesses in the bulldozer story.

I really don't understand the animosity against Jewish people.
moif
QUOTE(Julian)
That anti-Zionism and a dislike for or criticism of the actions of the state of Israel are one and the same as virulent anti-Semitism.
Before I write anything further, I'd like to address this first.

This is a point that is often (if not nearly always) raised by those who virulently attack and/or criticize Israel* and by itself the point is correct for there is no automatic connection between criticizing a state and criticizing an ideology.

However, this argument, or principle, must be applied equally and universally if it is to hold true.

In my experience, the majority of those who criticize Israel are nearly all on the left of centre in the political spectrum and their criticism is almost exclusively directed towards Israel. They are (in my experience) never directed towards, for example, Turkey. Turkey, with its foundation on other people's lands and attitudes towards these ethnic minorities has a very similar history to Israel, and yet Turkey is apparently immune to the criticism of the European left.

Why? Whats the big difference that sets Israel and Turkey so far apart?

I am not exagerating when I say I have never seen or heard of any socialist demonstration against Muslim/Arabic aggression or terrorism. On the contrary I have seen many examples of European socialists glorifying in the armed Muslim/Arabic 'resistance' against Israel without regard for those crimes and actions by those whom I can only term as terrorists but whom the left appear to believe are 'freedom fighters'.

The latest such example, here in Denmark, is a T shirt company, openly supported by socialist politicians, which has now been charged with selling T shirts, bearing the 'logo's' of known left wing terrorist organizations and passing on a share of the profits to these terrorist groups. Of course, there is nothing new about Europeans funding unrepentent anti Israeli terrorists.

Criticizing Israel is one thing, but when you only criticize Israel and even go so far as to support, either through demonstrations or by financial means, those who are working to destroy Israel, then you are not just criticizing Israel.

You are in fact participating in attacks against a democratic nation.


QUOTE(Changeling)
Being a "European", i have not heard nor seen anything regarding "anti semitism" in Europe. The only time i hear anyone talk about it, its usually americans wanting to insult Europeans for one reason or another (jealousy perhaps? who knows).
I have seen examples of anti semitism. Many times.

Perhaps its because you live in a part of Europe which is free of such crimes or maybe its just because you never took the time to take note of it... I don't know. What I do know is that much of the modern anti semitism in Europe masquerades itself as legitimate criticism of the state, or government of Israel. When I first came back to Denmark as a 16 year old (I grew up in the UK) one of the very first unusual things I noticed in the city of Århus (where I was born) was a wall upon which some one had written in large white letters, Boykot Israel. That was in 1986.

Its much faded now, but that graffiti is still there today.

I don't know who wrote that graffiti or why, but what I do know is that there is a long standing tradition of criticizing Israel in the European left. Recently for example, a leader of the Norwegian socialists, the Minister for Finance no less, admitted to boycotting Israel, moving Condoleeza Rice to threaten Norway with serious political consequences as a result. Suffice to say there doesn't appear to be any Norwegian ministers boycotting Saudi Arabia, Syria or Iran.

Nor do I recall any graffiti any where calling for the boycott of any other nations, not even the most despicable dictatorships you care to mention.

Israel is regarded in a different light by the European left.

Why?

Here is another curious example:
QUOTE(Jerusalem Post)
Oxford University is this week holding an "Israeli Apartheid week." Hosted by the Palestinian Society, and sanctioned by the university's student union, flyers state it is to commemorate the "30th anniversary of the international convention on the suppression and punishment of the crime of apartheid."

Fliers show a caricature of two Israeli soldiers beating a Palestinian man with maps of Israel, stated as Palestine, and South Africa. The conference's themes are apartheid and Zionism, divestment and resistance.

Ilan Pappe from Haifa University, an advocate of a one-state solution and boycott of Israeli institutions, will speak on "Resisting Apartheid: Divestment and Solidarity" on Friday. Chairing the meeting is Prof. Steven Rose, a major supporter of an academic and cultural boycott of Israel.

Other speakers include Prof. Gabi Piterberg from University of California at Los Angeles, who spoke on Monday night on "Zionism and Apartheid." Piterberg, an Israeli anti-Zionist, added his signature to a petition in 2003 calling for divestment from Israel.

On Wednesday, Karma Nabulsi, a politics fellow at Oxford and former PLO representative, will talk about "Palestinian Resistance." In a recent article, Dr. Nabulsi's accused Britain and Europe of "funding Israel's occupation and expansion."
Link.

"Palestinian Resistance." ...a. k. a. terrorism.

I find it strange that a famous British University should devote an entire week to Israeli apartheid. Do you suppose they also have a week devoted to the victims of Palestinian rocket attacks or suicide bombers? Some how I doubt it. It seems to me that its only terrorism when a Jew is responsible. When its a Muslim committing murder its billed as 'Palestinian Resistance'.

One mans terrorist is another man's freedom fighter... but a hero to the radical left.


QUOTE(Sleeper)
This story is completely detached from the one Moif posted. This woman put herself in harms way by sitting in front of bulldozers and being told to leave the area. The man in moifs story was kidnapped, abused, and burned... big difference. Also there are different stories from different eye witnesses in the bulldozer story.
Detached in one sense perhaps but not in another... After all, why exactly do so many people, both from Europe and the USA go to Palestine to intervene on behalf of people who would gladly murder them to further their own agenda's?

When was the last time you heard of a political activist who went to Israel to act as a human shield against Palestinian rocket attacks?


One last point...
QUOTE(Julian)
BBC coverage of this story. Your assertion in this particular case isn't really fair. Six stories on one murder abroad? The BBC are hardly part of the problem. If they were slow on the uptake, they were not much slower than you, moif.
Yeah, but if you already know the name of the dead man then why would you need to make a search?

Its easy enough to use a search function and find those stories the BBC posted one day and then dumped in an archive. Try going to the BBC Europe page though and check out the many articles relating to Muslims in Europe that have remained on that page for weeks now.

They even have a special section devoted to Muslims in Europe with articles related directly to France. These pages are full of stories relating to the hardship of Muslims, their lack of opportunities in Europe, the hardships they face, Islamophobia, etc, etc.

And not one mention of anti semitism any where to be seen...

...coincidence?

hmmm.gif


* I'm not referring to you personally Julian.
RedCedar
QUOTE(Sleeper @ Feb 25 2006, 11:13 AM)
This story is completely detached from the one Moif posted.  This woman put herself in harms way by sitting in front of bulldozers and being told to leave the area.  The man in moifs story was kidnapped, abused, and burned... big difference.  Also there are different stories from different eye witnesses in the bulldozer story.

I really don't understand the animosity against Jewish people.


Different perspectives? Well I'm sure there are different perspectives to the jew in paris being tortured as well. No?

I have no animosity toward jews, if that's what your implying. But I definately understand how animosity exists.


QUOTE(moif)
In my experience, the majority of those who criticize Israel are nearly all on the left of centre in the political spectrum and their criticism is almost exclusively directed towards Israel. They are (in my experience) never directed towards, for example, Turkey. Turkey, with its foundation on other people's lands and attitudes towards these ethnic minorities has a very similar history to Israel, and yet Turkey is apparently immune to the criticism of the European left.


Wow, I'm sure "left" in Europe means something much different than "left" in the US. The left in the US is definately a friend of jews and Israel. In fact, two outstanding congressmen from where I live are Jewish and both are lefties.

My guess is that many see Israel as an occupation where Turks, despite being despots to their minorities, are not occupiers. People see Israel as Russian jews, German jews, French jews, asian jews, etc. etc. all taking land that doesn't belong to them and pushing people aside who "belong" there.

I agree, there are a lot worse oppressive gov'ts out there. How about Russia? China? India?

I'm surprised there's not more guilt in Europe about WW2 and the treatment of jews. God knows the US suffers severe guilt over slavery.



droop224
MOIF are you actually implying that the Jews get more bad PR than muslims??

Simply put I think that is ludicrous. Think of this, the norm in America... can't speak for Europe, but from what I have seen it still holds true.. When a palestinian attacks a Israeli it is a terrorist attack... Palestinian tactics are considered "terrorism". Notice how only the "far" or "radical" left (as seen by many) would dare use terms, such as resistance or freedom fighter.


QUOTE
After all, why exactly do so many people, both from Europe and the USA go to Palestine to intervene on behalf of people who would gladly murder them to further their own agenda's?


Because they follow their heart's, not their wallets. The left... especially the far left... doesn't usually think "my people first", but rather "all people together", at least in theory, if not in practice.

QUOTE
How serious is anti semitism in Europe today?


It's not serious at all. What is serious, is the lessening of support for Israel by much of the populace in european countries and America. Now some may equate anti semitism with anti judaism further with anti israel.

I'm against Israel, it's got nothing to do with them being jews. And if someone were to call me racist I would be forced to ask... which race??? the white race??

Because at the end of the day that is what I believe people are beginning to learn. It was what I learned that turned me against Israel at the age of 22-23. Israel is just another example of Europeans coming to a land where brown people dwell, they come with bigger guns and greater technology, planting a flag and saying..."This is my land now, do something!!!"

So why is it the left is more anti-Israel, well it is not because they are more racist... actually it is because the left is less racist. We all have a degree of Racism to us, and I know that is generalizing, but I believe it to be virtually inevitable not to have any degree... even if it is just the smallest bit of pride to be who you are to include your race.

The left however is less likely to give the pass that Israel needs. The left will look first at... how does a country with only 20% arabs find itself in the middle of the Middle East. How did Islam spread over all the Middle East except for Israel? And then we look into it and sure enough... Europeans invaded and planted a flag.

Those who are more racist are more likely to just look over this as a small thing... you know the crowd that goes... "What's wrong with that." There are people like this in America, too. They see our military bases all around the world and they think to themselves..."so what's the big deal"

So now your dealing with a left that relates more to idealism rather than realism I do what I should vs. I do what I want.

Would you teach your kids... if you are strong enough to take someones toys do it... most would say no. Ideally we believe this to be good. Someone on the left is going to use that same ideal and apply it and when it comes to Israel, find Israel to be oppressive and untrustworthy. However someone on the right (european or American) might see the benefits to having Israel on the middle east and gloss over israel's transgressions due to race, money, or good home grown propaganda.

But like I said... me personally I don't see how you can know of the mass infiltration of Europeans and the subsequent giving of Arab land to them and find that to be O.K.
Ultimatejoe
For what it is worth, a simple genetic screening of any ashkenazi jew (most of the European jews) would reveal that their genetic "heritage" is the same as the Arabs that you would call brown. Time and limited penetration of the caucasian genotype has lightened the skin somewhat, but an Israeli would be pretty hard to distinguish from an Arab (not the same as a muslim... I find the way people move between the two terms interchangeably concerning) from a Jew genetically unless you were to look for a very specific set of markers.

Now this post may seem technical and pointless... and to a degree it is. That is because trying to attribute "racial" or "genetic" characteristics to a population in assigning some moral playing-field is useless and futile.

QUOTE
are you actually implying that the Jews get more bad PR than muslims??


I don't think so. There is anti-semitism, which is extremely pervasive in Europe (and to a degree in North America, stronger than most of us here care to admit) which paints Jews and Muslims collectively. Rarely are the two groups linked together in the minds of those who are anti-semitic (except for more radical right-wing hate-types.) However, the same state of mind which allows someone to think of all muslims as "towelheads" (to use the least offensive moniker I can think of) is the same that allows people to think of Jews as poisoning the middle east and running global financial institutions.

Unfortunately there is another undercurrent of anti-semitism which is unique to Europe, which has existed really since the Diaspora. Jews are tolerated, but are always perceived of as an outsider... not so much in that they are isolated or different, but that their allegiances lay elsewhere. The persecution of Jewish people has undergone numerous permutations, but each time there was an element of political distrust. The same is true of today, thanks to modern Zionism and a healthy helping of ignorance. In the last twenty years or so, Muslims are being treated the same way.

The reason why there is an apparent difference in how these two groups are treated is two-fold. First, as I said, antisemitism towards Jews predates Islam, let alone Muslims arriving in Europe en masse. It has always had a foothold there, and likely always will. Second, there are a lot more Jews out there than muslims. This creates two dynamics: it forces politicians and the media to be much more concilliatory, and it allows certain muslims (certainly not the whole) the freedom to operate without worrying about upsetting their neighbours... Since the 1930's (in North America, 1950's in Europe) Jewish groups have worked actively to establish ties to other religious denominations and social groups precisely because they were always in a position of weakness, and what happened in Europe illustrated just how tenuous their position was. Islamic groups like the one moif describes do not have to worry about staying on good terms with their neighbours because of the size of the larger group.

I would like to take a minute to address Zionism, if I may. It is true that Zionists, sensing the coming crisis in Europe and Russia, changes within the Ottoman empire, and using newfound economic strength began actively pursuing the goal of "returning" to Israel in the hopes of rebuilding a homeland. It is also true that these same Zionists engaged in illegal and sometimes nefarious practices to do so. But these facts need to be tempered with the broader truths of the time. The vast majority of immigrants to Palestine and later Israel were not doing so to take the land of someone else, or to engage in any sort of pseudo-religious political project, but really to find a home. If my dad's parents were able to tell you why they headed for Israel after they left the DP camps, they wouldn't have anything to say about Zionism or Eretz Israel. They'd probably tell you that they had nowhere else to go.

The fact is that Palestine had been a political football since the Kingdom of Judea collapsed two millenia ago. It has been conquered by the Egyptians, Persians, Phillistines, Greeks, Romans, Israelites, Arabs, Turks (Ottoman AND Seljuk), Christians, and British. Jews and "Palestinians" have a claim to the land, and while the process has obviously been disastrous, make no mistake that most of the animosity stems from the fact that the current "king of the hill" is vastly outnumbered by other would be claimants.
Amlord
Interestingly, I saw a program on Discovery last night called "Hate Rock" which showed how white supremacist groups are using music to convey their message.

These groups of course are not only pro-white, they are anti-black and anti-Jew. They semi-openly praise Adolf Hitler and his ideology.

The popularity of these groups is growing in Europe. The financial backing often comes from the United States (or is it just that the profits flow to the US?).

Hate Rock Online: New Tool for Racists and Anti-Semites

I see a lot of anti-Semitism in Europe. I see it to a lesser extent in the US. It isn't limited to Muslims.
Google
moif
QUOTE(droop224)
MOIF are you actually implying that the Jews get more bad PR than muslims??
Truth be told I don't know. I'm not sure what you mean by PR. To my mind, public relations are something you actively engage in rather than receive.

If you mean that the Muslims receive a better treatment in the hands of the European media though, then yes, I am forced to conclude, from the events of the last fifteen or so years that Muslims in Europe, receive a much better treatment than Jews. In the last few years this has been never more clear than in France where several Jews have been murdered in distinctly 'racist' murders by Muslims and yet no mention of these crimes has appeared in the mainstream European media.

Contrast to this the hysteria which surrounds even the smallest slur against the Muslim community of Europe, then I think its evidently clear that European Jews are being mistreated both by those who attack them and those who choose to look the other way.


QUOTE(droop224)
Simply put I think that is ludicrous. Think of this, the norm in America... can't speak for Europe,
This thread is not about America. It is specifically about the attitudes towards Jews in Europe. What is 'ludicrous' is to think you can look at America's situation and then use that to debate Europe's attitude.


QUOTE(droop224)
but from what I have seen it still holds true.. When a palestinian attacks a Israeli it is a terrorist attack... Palestinian tactics are considered "terrorism". Notice how only the "far" or "radical" left (as seen by many) would dare use terms, such as resistance or freedom fighter.
Not in Europe... not unless you count the BBC or Oxford college as belonging to the 'radical left'.


QUOTE(droop224)
It's not serious at all. What is serious, is the lessening of support for Israel by much of the populace in european countries and America. Now some may equate anti semitism with anti judaism further with anti israel.

I'm against Israel, it's got nothing to do with them being jews. And if someone were to call me racist I would be forced to ask... which race??? the white race??
So, whats your position on Turkey then? Turkey was founded over an existing Greek state. Constantinople, now named Istanbul is a European city, taken by the Muslim Turks. Hagia Sofia was built as a Christian cathedral.

In the same time frame as the existence of Israel, Modern Turkey has also tried to annex the Greek island of Cypress and to this day holds half the island under military occupation.

Why are you so concerned with just Israel?


QUOTE(droop224)
Because at the end of the day that is what I believe people are beginning to learn. It was what I learned that turned me against Israel at the age of 22-23. Israel is just another example of Europeans coming to a land where brown people dwell, they come with bigger guns and greater technology, planting a flag and saying..."This is my land now, do something!!!"
Well, even if this ridiculously simplistic explanation carried any validity, I'd still have to ask why European aggression gets you all worked up whilst Muslim aggression doesn't?

Are you so divorced from history that you believe the status quo is all that carries validity? That older greivances don't count unless they fit into your (apparent) socialist world view?

The Muslim Turks attacked Europe several times. They invaded us. Why do you think there are Muslims in Bosnia and Kosovo? Those people didn't just convert out of piety. They were forced to become Muslims by the Turks.

Not that this matters. Its besides the point because Israel is not a European colony. Israel was not founded by 'Europeans with bigger guns'. It was founded by Jews, from all over the world, including a small million or so who were ethnically cleansed out of the rest of the Middle East!

It says a great deal about your position that you regard Israel with such a blinkered view as to claim it is a state founded by Europeans. For what its worth, my maternal grandfather was an advocate for the re-creation of a Jewish homeland. He was a French Jew who had fled to England after the first world war. He was an astute old fellow who understood that the Jews were always going to lose because they had no land. He spent the latter half of his life, along with others like him, trying to set up a Jewish homeland on the island of Malta.

My point here is that the European Jews were not the sole cause of the foundation of Israel. They weren't even all in accord with it. Israel was founded by Jews from all over the world, from Africa, Asia, the Middle East, and the America's as well as from Palestine itself. The European Jews were only one portion of the founders of Israel and the only thing that set them apart is that they had the lessons of the Holocaust to motivate them.


QUOTE(droop224)
So why is it the left is more anti-Israel, well it is not because they are more racist... actually it is because the left is less racist. We all have a degree of Racism to us, and I know that is generalizing, but I believe it to be virtually inevitable not to have any degree... even if it is just the smallest bit of pride to be who you are to include your race.

The left however is less likely to give the pass that Israel needs. The left will look first at... how does a country with only 20% arabs find itself in the middle of the Middle East. How did Islam spread over all the Middle East except for Israel? And then we look into it and sure enough... Europeans invaded and planted a flag.

Those who are more racist are more likely to just look over this as a small thing... you know the crowd that goes... "What's wrong with that." There are people like this in America, too. They see our military bases all around the world and they think to themselves..."so what's the big deal"

So now your dealing with a left that relates more to idealism rather than realism I do what I should vs. I do what I want.

Would you teach your kids... if you are strong enough to take someones toys do it... most would say no. Ideally we believe this to be good. Someone on the left is going to use that same ideal and apply it and when it comes to Israel, find Israel to be oppressive and untrustworthy. However someone on the right (european or American) might see the benefits to having Israel on the middle east and gloss over israel's transgressions due to race, money, or good home grown propaganda.

But like I said... me personally I don't see how you can know of the mass infiltration of Europeans and the subsequent giving of Arab land to them and find that to be O.K.
I find your world view to be extremely biased and utterly corrupted by your apparent left wing beliefs.

First of all, you argue that the left is not racist because Israel is not defined by race, but then you ask how does a country with only 20% Arabs find itself in the middle of the Middle East?

If your anti Israeli position is not based on a racial perception of the Israeli's then why should the ethnic make up of the state of Israel matter so? As far as I can see it only matters in as much as it gives you a foundation for which to build your anti Israeli position.

Then you ask 'how did Islam spread over all the Middle East except for Israel?' Well how do you think it spread? By religious conviction? Do you suppose Islam is so persuasive and intellectually sound that people simply convert because they have been convinced by the light of God?

No. Islam, much like Christianity once did, spread right across the Middle East through war and oppression and forced conversion. The reason why Israel is only 20% Arab is because the Israeli Jews moved into the Palestine in large numbers. Any neutral look at the head count of Palestine one hundred years ago will reveal it had a fairly low population density. In those days the region belonged to the Ottoman Turks and they eventually lost it when they sided with Germany against the western allies in the first world war. In other words, the Ottoman Turks... the Muslims... attacked Europe, not the other way around. They lost Palestine to the British fair and square. The Ottoman empire was not some small political power, helpless before the might of superior European firepower. It was a partner to those European powers who lost the First World War.

The people who lived in Palestine then were a mix of beduoin, Jews, Arabs and others. They had no state, no infrastructure, no government and no autonomy. When the British took over, the Jews saw their chance and they took it. They founded the state of Israel and Jews from all over the world migrated there.

So, when you ask how did Islam spread right across the Middle East but not Israel, then there is your answer. Because Israel pushed Islam back.

What I'd like to ask you is why is that a problem for you? What gives Islam pre-eminance over Judaism? As far as I can see, neither is all that important. The Jews are a seperate race of people from the Arabs only because they have been defined as such by those who wish to justify their destruction.

As UJ points out, there is no real difference between a Jew and an Arab. The only difference is in which faith they hold.

Israel has demonstrated it will tolerate Arabs. As you yourself point out, they make up 20% of the population of Israel. There is not one single Arabic or Turkish neighbour to Israel which can say the same thing about Jews.

ph34r.gif


However, this thread is NOT about Israel, so getting back on topic again... you have also made some remarks regarding 'the left' and how it perceives the problems between the Jews and Muslims.

To answer this, consider how the murders of Jews in France by Muslims have been portrayed... or not portrayed as the case often is, in the European media with the absolute hysteria regarding the recent Mohammed cartoons. The European media, like any other is divided into various groupings with political tendencies, but in my opinion, the European middle ground is much further to the left of the American centre. In Europe, Socialist politicians and the 'left wing' media have come out strongly against the Mohammed cartoons. George Galloway has even described them as being 'worse than 9/11 and the London bombings combined'. Link.

In Sweden (a left wing state if ever there was one since its been run almost exclusively by the Social democratic party since 1936) the police were used to actually shut down a server because a nationalist fringe party had posted their own Mohammed cartoon. Link.

In the meantime, in France...
QUOTE
After a European Union poll found that nearly 60% of Europeans consider Israel the greatest threat to world peace, the British Broadcasting Corp. on November 26, asked if anti-Semitism is really increasing. “There was outrage and shock over the recent EU poll,” observed Robert Wistrich, director of Jerusalem’s Vidal Sassoon International Center for the Study of anti-Semitism. Many Israelis consider mainstream labeling of “Israel as a Nazi state” a sort of anti-Semitism.

But the BBC gave the final word to Vienna’s Edward Serotta. The increasingly “shrill” debate often “paints the entire European continent as a cesspool of hatred for Jews,” griped the Central Europe Center for Research and Documentation director. “One prominent Jewish leader recently said the climate was just like 1933 - this is absolutely absurd.”

Oh really? Serotta made this bizarre claim precisely a week after two Paris Jews were brutally murdered and disfigured—because they were Jewish. A minor tabloid, Le Parisien, reported the grisly events. But not a single major French newspaper—Le Monde, Figaro or Libération—covered the stories, according to an interview with a victim’s mother, distributed by Rosenpress in Revue-Politique.com. In one case, the police advised the family not to call the crime anti-Semitic.
Link.
Why not call such crimes anti semitic?
When a French Muslim slits his neighbours throat twice, gouges his eyes out with a fork then runs around screaming, 'I'm going to heaven! I've killed my Jew!"

...how is this not anti semitic?
Because the Muslim may also be a person who speaks a semite language?
So what? The fact is, he is a murderer whose crime is one based on a perception of religion and race.

That was two years ago. The BBC still doesn't like to make a distinction between Islam and anti Jewish violence. None of its online articles regarding Muslims in France make any note of Muslim attacks against Jews.

ph34r.gif


But don't lets confuse France with Europe. This issue is not limited to the French. Looking back at Sweden provides more examples of how the left wing Swedes choose to ignore anti Jewish aggression in the Muslim population. When the Swedish police raid mosques they often find anti Jewish propaganda, but this is seldom commented upon by the Swedish media.

And consider this:
QUOTE
Teachers in the suburbs of the major Swedish towns report widespread and brazen hostility against Jews among groups of Arab and Muslim students. These students view the Holocaust as Zionistic propaganda, express admiration for Hitler and regret that he didn't succeed in killing more Jews. The problem is aggravated by the almost complete silence which is surrounding this form of jew-hatred. Sverker Oredsson, a professor of History, and the researcher Mikael Tossavainen write on a new report about the subject which is presented today.

Most Swedes believe that anti-Semitism is an extinct problem in our country. They are aware that prejudices and hatred aimed at Jews have regrettably occured in the past in Sweden but that is now seen as part of history. Most Swedes believe that our society has evolved and that we are more enlightened today. Most Swedes believe that Jews today don't meet more prejudices than Danes or smålänningar (people living in the Swedish province Småland).

[snip]

The problem is furthermore aggravated by the almost complete silence which is surrounding this form of Jew-hatred. If anti-Semitism among Arabs and Muslims in Sweden is discussed at all in Swedish media and debate, it tends to be in the form of trivializations or denials of the problem.
(translated) Link. (PDF)
Its quite difficult to find this reported in Swedish or Danish, let alone in English, but here is an American, though much less comprehensive, example for your reading pleasure: Link.

Sweden, with its 70 year reign of Socialist democracy is the perfect of example of the left wing attitude towards Jews.

ph34r.gif


Through out Europe there is a bias that holds Muslims to a different standard than all other people. The European political elite, backed up almost completely by the European media continues to attack anything and any body, regardless of context, which might be construed as Islamophobic.

At the same time, these same politicians and journalists continue to turn a blind eye to the harsh reality of anti Jewish violence at the hands of Muslims.


Why?





Lesly
QUOTE(Amlord @ Feb 28 2006, 09:05 AM)
Interestingly, I saw a program on Discovery last night called "Hate Rock" which showed how white supremacist groups are using music to convey their message. These groups of course are not only pro-white, they are anti-black and anti-Jew.  They semi-openly praise Adolf Hitler and his ideology.

The popularity of these groups is growing in Europe. The financial backing often comes from the United States (or is it just that the profits flow to the US?).
*

This book review article somewhat ties into UJ’s post and IMO helps explain to some degree why U.S. anti-Semitism is being exported to Europe. I remain unmoved about Holocaust denial speech laws. While I’m not sure whether those laws ironically help foster anti-Semitism, I think the repressed atmosphere towards politically incorrect speech and the politicians’ reluctance to take complaints about violence and immigration seriously is creating a backlash.

QUOTE(Slate.com)
Bawer's real spleen is reserved, however, for those European elites who up to now have ignored the growing threat to their democracy while blaming their problems on the United States and Israel. The Europeans he encounters remain heirs of the 1968 revolt, embracing childish anti-establishment politics that blames the world's problems on capitalism and America, even as Muslim youths attack Jews and gays in their own midst. National leaders cozy up to Arab authoritarians and ignore popular complaints about crime in immigrant communities in hopes of buying peace for themselves. Those like Pym Fortuyn, the gay Dutch politician who was the first to say clearly that Muslims were a threat to the central Dutch values of openness and pluralism (and who was assassinated by an animal-rights activist), are denounced by the media and academic elites as fascists and racists.

Denunciations like that are precisely what Buchanan and Blankley alas invite, rather than help deflect, with incendiary warnings and unrealistic proposals that only promise to fuel intolerance. […]

Yet the deeper source of Europe's failure to integrate Muslim immigrants, as Bawer recognizes, is not trendy multiculturalist ideas embraced by the left, but precisely Buchanan's blood-and-soil understanding of identity—a mind-set that until five years ago prevented a German-speaking third-generation Turk from acquiring citizenship because he didn't have a German mother. According to Bawer, "Europeans … will allow immigrants into their country; they'll pay high taxes so that their government can dole out (forever, if necessary) rent support, child benefits. … But they won't really think of them as being Norwegian or Dutch. And they'll rebel mightily against the idea of immigrants living among them as respected, fully equal professionals." American identity, by contrast, has from the beginning been more creedal and political than based on religion or ethnicity. Newly naturalized Guatemalans or Koreans in America can proudly say they are Americans. Pat Buchanan may not like it, but that is precisely what rescues us from the trap the Europeans are in.

- Europe vs. Radical Islam: Alarmist Americans have mostly bad advice for Europeans
RedCedar
QUOTE(Lesly @ Feb 28 2006, 10:59 AM)
that is precisely what rescues us from the trap the Europeans are in.


I agree. For all the europeans that say multiculturalism can't work, the US is proof that it has worked.

Although some could argue that the US is a melting pot and that eventually this leads to one culture, a combination of cultures that is uniquely American.

I always found it odd that an arab would be proud to say he's French. French is not only a nationality but an ethnicity. Unlike the US, I can see why European countries want to keep the same "race", that's their identity. You see the same stuff in India when they violently attack people celebrating Valentines day. I guess if the white guy does it then it's racist and xenophobic, but when the brown guy does it, it's because of the infringement of the white man on THEIR culture.


droop224
QUOTE
For what it is worth, a simple genetic screening of any Ashkenazi Jew (most of the European Jews) would reveal that their genetic "heritage" is the same as the Arabs that you would call brown. Time and limited penetration of the Caucasian genotype has lightened the skin somewhat, but an Israeli would be pretty hard to distinguish from an Arab.


I would say it depends on which Israeli you choose to pick. Would you pick an Ashkenazi Jew?? I don't know about the rest of AD'ers here, but it is pretty easy for me to distinguish Arafatfrom a Sharon... by color or facial features. Sharon has a distinctly Caucasian look to him. What about and American or European Ashkenazi Jew would they also be indistinguishable from an Arab.?

Not only is the Ashkenazi Jew the majority of Jews in Europe, but they are the majority in both America and in Israel. And they are Caucasians. They are White not Arab. For fellow debaters here is a link to their history
QUOTE
... are Jews descended from the medieval Jewish communities of the Rhineland. Many later migrated, largely eastward, forming communities in Germany, Poland, Austria, Eastern Europe and elsewhere between the 10th and 19th centuries. From medieval times until the mid-20th century, the lingua franca among Ashkenazi Jews was Yiddish or Slavic languages such as the (now extinct) Knaanic, and they developed a distinct culture and liturgy influenced by interaction with surrounding nations.

Although in the 11th century they comprised only 3% of the world's Jewish population, Ashkenazi Jews accounted for (at their highest) 92% of the world's Jews in 1931 and today make up approximately 80% of Jews worldwide



The problem I have with the way your first paragraph comes out is that it seems misleading to me. By stating "a simple genetic screening of any Ashkenazi Jew (most of the European Jews) would reveal that their genetic "heritage" is the same as the Arabs that you would call brown. " it almost seems like you are implying that Jews and Arabs are the same. In fact one post later MOIF states.

QUOTE
As UJ points out, there is no real difference between a Jew and an Arab. The only difference is in which faith they hold.


Which couldn't be less true. Even if the fact that both Arab and Ashkenazi Jew can trace their "heritage" to the Middle East...so what. How many people can trace their "heritage" to the Middle East or Northern Africa.... Seeing that scientists believe life started there. Also allow me to bring another curve ball to you all. If the Jew and the Arab are descendents of the same people... how can it be anti-Semitic to support the Arabs in their struggle against Israel… Wouldn’t the Arabs be Semitic as well???

You don't think race is a big deal... but I think it is for this debate as I'll explain later.

You spoke earlier of the interchanging of terms... I think this is important.

Here is how I see it

Jew=Christian=Muslim=Buddhist... so on
Arab=African(Black)=European(white)=Asian.... so on
Judaism=Christianity=Islam=Buddhism... so on
Israeli=American=German=Mexican...

Tell me if you have a problem with any of these.

I think it is very easy to be misleading by switching terms around and interchanging them, so I want to make boundaries on myself as well as anyone else, especially Moif cause he interchanges like it is going out of style. Just to give you an example:

Moif

QUOTE
The reason why Israel is only 20% Arab is because the Israeli Jews moved into the Palestine in large numbers. Any neutral look at the head count of Palestine one hundred years ago will reveal it had a fairly low population density


Now does that make sense to any one here?? How can you be an Israeli Jew before there is an Israel?? Is it me or did he purposely avoid saying "European Jews moved into Palestine"

You see the Jew is not a race, it can be considered a culture, at most. Jews only make up 10% of the worlds Semitic people, so even if you were against Jews you wouldn't necessarily be "anti-Semitic", you could just be anti Jew. Sure bonehead Nazi groups like to call the Jews a race, and to a great extent I think Jew Perpetuate this myth so that they can call people "racist" or "anti-Semitic". But in truth the same thing that makes a Jew a Jew is the same thing that makes a Christian a Christian and a Muslim a Muslim. That something is their spiritual following. An Arab is not a Muslim it just so happen many Muslims are Arabs.

To be sure many Jews have had limited relations outside their culture, but so have the Amish... they're not a race unto themselves either, though it may seem that they are at times.


I can't type much tonight but I want to explain why race is so important to this topic.

If we allow for anything anti Israel to become anti Semitic then we have been duped. And what I think is on the rise in America and in Europe is a form of anti-Zionism.. which is the movement that led to the creation of Israel. I personally am against Zionism.

I am against the creation of Israel, it was wrong. Europeans migrated to the Middle East, used their influence with other Europeans to create the country and give it legitimacy.

A country was made in the middle of Arab people in the middle of Arab lands... how many Arab countries voted for the creation of Israel??? Was it 2... 1... 0!!!

You can not divorce the action of Europeans invading the Middle East and creating a country from the current events. The Jews had plenty of places to go. Like Britain or the U.S. Majority of Jews live inside of Europe and the U.S. They are not disabused; in fact, they are doing quite well for themselves.

So to sum up what I am saying. Race is important in understanding why people have a problem with israel and support for Israel. As more people realize this is not a fight that has gone on for thousands of years, which more people do than don't, but is actually a recent (relatively speaking) conflict that is due from whites migrating to the Middle East and creating a country with the help of other Whites, you will see more and more people stand up against the invaders. If nothing else, the left, generally speaking, sees the invader as the aggressor.

The animosity is not against the Semitic people, so it is not anti-Semitic.
The animosity is not against Judaism, so it is not anti-Jewish.

The animosity is against the Zionist philosophy.
The animosty is against the racist idea of Whites have Supremacy, therefore whatever they do is good (might makes right)
Sevac
I my experience there is some Anti-Semitism is Europe today, but I have not noticed that as a major problem in our time. As long as the head of the Jewish Community points his finger to a deputy of the Parliament who then has to resign for speaking out against Israel I doubt there will be tolerance towards Anti-Semitism.

Jews in Europe have this "victim quality", which makes them special what leads to high coverage of anti-Jewish acts. Esp. Germany has a very submissive attitude towards Jews and prosecutes acts against Jews very thoroughly.
I can only make that observation for Germany, and esp. after 9/11 and the following anti-muslim tendencies in society have proven to be favorably for Jews and their cause.

However, extremism against foreigners in general is problematic and widespread.
English Horn
QUOTE(droop224 @ Mar 6 2006, 02:01 AM)
You see the Jew is not a race, it can be considered a culture, at most.  Jews only make up 10% of the worlds Semitic people, so even if you were against Jews you wouldn't necessarily be "anti-Semitic", you could just be anti Jew.  Sure bonehead Nazi groups like to call the Jews a race, and to a great extent I think Jew Perpetuate this myth so that they can call people "racist" or "anti-Semitic".  But in truth the same thing that makes a Jew a Jew is the same thing that makes a Christian a Christian and a Muslim a Muslim.  That something is their spiritual following.  An Arab is not a Muslim it just so happen many Muslims are Arabs. 


I went through this many many times with my co-workers. You're indeed correct, Jew is not a race, it is a nationality. For whatever reason, being Jewish in United States means practicing Judaism, which is incorrect - one can be a Christian Jew, or Buddhist Jew, etc. A vast majority of Jews from former Soviet Union are not religious at all. However, they all share the same ancestry, which makes them a nationality. A child can be born in Germany to Polish parents; does the geographical location of a child's place of birth makes him German? Because of his ancestry this child is still Polish. A Jew may or may not practice Judaism; a religion can not define a nationality.

QUOTE(droop224 @ Mar 6 2006, 02:01 AM)
You can not divorce the action of Europeans invading the Middle East and creating a country from the current events.  The Jews had plenty of places to go.  Like Britain or the U.S.  Majority of Jews live inside of Europe and the U.S.  They are not disabused; in fact, they are doing quite well for themselves.


Jews in Germany were doing quite well for themselves, too, all the way until 1933. And after 1933, they had plenty of places to go - when the receptive governments were in the mood to accept them. Unfortunately, in cases such as St. Louis when hundreds of refugees were denied entry to either Cuba or United States and had to return back to welcoming gates of Dachau and Treblinka. Or the famous case of the Exodus 1947 in which British troops sent thousands of Jews back to France and, eventually, to Germany. Also, after the war, thousands of displaced Jews from Eastern Europe found their homes occupied when they returned "home" to their towns in Poland, Romania, etc. They were NOT welcome back.
loreng59
QUOTE(English Horn @ Mar 6 2006, 09:36 AM)
QUOTE
I went through this many many times with my co-workers. You're indeed correct, Jew is not a race, it is a nationality. For whatever reason, being Jewish in United States means practicing Judaism, which is incorrect - one can be a Christian Jew, or Buddhist Jew, etc. A vast majority of Jews from former Soviet Union are not religious at all. However, they all share the same ancestry, which makes them a nationality. A child can be born in Germany to Polish parents; does the geographical location of a child's place of birth makes him German? Because of his ancestry this child is still Polish. A Jew may or may not practice Judaism; a religion can not define a nationality.

*


Okay anti-semitism has nothing to do with being a semite. It is a term that is used exclusively to describe hatred of Jews period.

Second, there are no Christian Jews, or Buddhist Jews, etc. Either one is Jewish or not. Groups like 'Jews for Jesus' have another term, called Christian.

As for being religious a vast majority of Israel is not. They are referred to as secular. No less Jewish than the observant Jews, but just not practising their religion.

QUOTE
Not only is the Ashkenazi Jew the majority of Jews in Europe, but they are the majority in both America and in Israel. And they are Caucasians. They are White not Arab. For fellow debaters here is a link to their history
from droop224.

Not correct on two points. Both originated in Europe. Sephardic Jews came from Spain originally and settled mainly under Muslim rule throughout the Ottoman Empire because of the Inquistition and are currently the largest percentage of Jews in Israel.

The best I can say is Judaism not a nationality since that would be indicative of a country. It is also not a race since there are people of all races and there is no distinction due to race. It is a religion, but more than that it is a culture. Though it has many different threads since traditions in regions vary to a huge degree.
English Horn
QUOTE(loreng59 @ Mar 6 2006, 10:32 AM)
Okay anti-semitism has nothing to do with being a semite. It is a term that is used exclusively to describe hatred of Jews period.

Second, there are no Christian Jews, or Buddhist Jews, etc. Either one is Jewish or not. Groups like 'Jews for Jesus' have another term, called Christian.

As for being religious a vast majority of Israel is not. They are referred to as secular. No less Jewish than the observant Jews, but just not practising their religion.


Well, I don't want to go into a "who is Jewish and who is not" debate here, but as far as I know, to be considered Jewish one has to have a Jewish mother. Says nothing about practicing religion.
Like every other nationality, Jews have their own culture, distinct physical and facial features, etc. However, one can be Italian and be a protestant; one can be Arab, and be a Catholic; similarly, one can be a Jew and be a Christian. It just so happends that the religion (Judaism) is associated with and practiced primarily by one nationality (Jews). Doesn't mean that every Jew has to practice Judaism.
moif
QUOTE(droop224)
QUOTE(moif)
The reason why Israel is only 20% Arab is because the Israeli Jews moved into the Palestine in large numbers. Any neutral look at the head count of Palestine one hundred years ago will reveal it had a fairly low population density
Now does that make sense to any one here?? How can you be an Israeli Jew before there is an Israel?? Is it me or did he purposely avoid saying "European Jews moved into Palestine"
Its just you.

I was making a distinction between those Jews who went to Israel and those who didn't. I did not purposely avoid saying "European Jews moved into Palestine" because the Jews who went to Israel were not all from Europe.

Indeed, many were natives to Palestine.


QUOTE(droop224)
You see the Jew is not a race, it can be considered a culture, at most. Jews only make up 10% of the worlds Semitic people, so even if you were against Jews you wouldn't necessarily be "anti-Semitic", you could just be anti Jew. Sure bonehead Nazi groups like to call the Jews a race, and to a great extent I think Jew Perpetuate this myth so that they can call people "racist" or "anti-Semitic". But in truth the same thing that makes a Jew a Jew is the same thing that makes a Christian a Christian and a Muslim a Muslim. That something is their spiritual following. An Arab is not a Muslim it just so happen many Muslims are Arabs.
Isn't that what I just said, and to which you took exception?

Didn't I just write that there is no real difference between Jews and Arabs except their faith... ?

What is 'race' anyways but an excuse to create divisions? Race has nothing to do with anything. Its a bogus argument that people fall back on to justify hatred towards other groups.

There is no difference between Jews and Arabs or Turks or Greeks or Somali's or even Inuit. The only differences are cultural ...like religion.


QUOTE(droop224)
I can't type much tonight but I want to explain why race is so important to this topic.

If we allow for anything anti Israel to become anti Semitic then we have been duped. And what I think is on the rise in America and in Europe is a form of anti-Zionism.. which is the movement that led to the creation of Israel. I personally am against Zionism.

I am against the creation of Israel, it was wrong. Europeans migrated to the Middle East, used their influence with other Europeans to create the country and give it legitimacy.
I would argue that the vast majority of people don't have the first clue as to what 'zionism' is so I take issue with your argument that most people speak out against Israel because they are 'anti zionists'.

It is my experience that most people, here in Europe, who speak out against Israel, do so for two main reasons. The first is they do not distinguish between the two sides any more. A common held belief here is that both parties are now equally guilty.

The second is a prevailing argument that Israel, as a democracy, holds a greater responsiblity to push for peaceful co-existance.

The only people I have ever heard refering to the matter of 'zionism' have been the same extreme left wing provo's who justify violent street demonstrations and violence against the Police.

For what its worth, I disagree with both commonly held opinions that Israel is more to blame than the Palestinians. The ease and frequency with which the Palestinians resort to using deliberate terrorist violence against civilian targets far out weighs any violent reaction on the part of the Israeli's.


QUOTE(droop224)
A country was made in the middle of Arab people in the middle of Arab lands... how many Arab countries voted for the creation of Israel??? Was it 2... 1... 0!!!
So what?

How many of these Arab country's were themselves voted on when they were created? ...especially considering how many of them were created by colonial Europe.


QUOTE(droop224)
You can not divorce the action of Europeans invading the Middle East and creating a country from the current events. The Jews had plenty of places to go. Like Britain or the U.S. Majority of Jews live inside of Europe and the U.S. They are not disabused; in fact, they are doing quite well for themselves.
Your argument is so far removed from reality that if I were to use the same principle, I might just as well argue that Anatolia belongs to the Greeks and the Turks should get out of European lands!

I can 'divorce the Europeans invading the Middle East', simply because, in the case of Israel it never happened. Israel was founded by native Jews just as much as it was by the Jews from the whole of the rest of the world.

It seems to me that you have a hang up about Europeans... especially, 'white' Jewish Europeans that has absolutely nothing what so ever to do with your claimed agenda of being 'anti zionist' and which makes a mockery of your argument regarding race. Clearly you are not so much motivated by 'anti zionism' as you claim but by the 'anti Europeanism' to which your post promotes.


QUOTE(droop224)
So to sum up what I am saying. Race is important in understanding why people have a problem with israel and support for Israel. As more people realize this is not a fight that has gone on for thousands of years, which more people do than don't, but is actually a recent (relatively speaking) conflict that is due from whites migrating to the Middle East and creating a country with the help of other Whites, you will see more and more people stand up against the invaders.
You've just contradicted yourself again.

First you say that 'the Jew is not a race' then you say that race is important. Well if 'the Jew' is not a race then why is race so important to you?


QUOTE(droop224)
If nothing else, the left, generally speaking, sees the invader as the aggressor.
This is the kernal of the problem of European anti semitism.

'The Left' does indeed base its prejudice against israel on this perception. So much so in fact that it is willing to put aside all other considerations, facts and incidents to maintain it.

Muslims can run amok in European cities, carry out assault, torture, murder and terrorism against Jews and European socialists say nothing what so ever about it. Muslims can kill our intellectuals, murder and rape our women and children. Assault and hold entire schools hostage and carry out suicide bombs against our infrastructure, and all the while 'the Left' whines about Israel.

Israel is a modern, well run, productive nation, with fair laws and and open tolerance to a significant Arab minority within its borders. It is threatened and hated by its Muslim Arabic neighbours, not one of whom compares favourably when we consider democracy, law and civil rights.

Those who openly oppose Israel will often point out that both sides are equally to blame, but although you'll often see anti Israel demonstrations in the cities of Europe, you won't see anti Palestinian demonstrations.

Its this distinct distinction that betrays the anti Jewish bias in the European socialist heart.


QUOTE(droop224)
The animosity is not against the Semitic people, so it is not anti-Semitic.
The animosity is not against Judaism, so it is not anti-Jewish.

The animosity is against the Zionist philosophy.
The animosty is against the racist idea of Whites have Supremacy, therefore whatever they do is good (might makes right)
No. You have it backwards.

Right makes might. There is a reason why the strongest nations on Earth are all democracies.

Israel is not a European state.
It is not a European colony.
It is not even a European political client.
It was not founded 'by Europeans', it was founded by Jews, some of whom were Europeans.


I'd also like to point out that the Semite people are not a single ethnic unit. The word Semite describes the languages spoken, not the ethnic culture of those involved. Jews and Arabs are both Semitic people because their languages share lingustic similarities stemming from a common source. That is all.

The term 'anti semitic' came about because the nazi's misused the original terminology.


And finally I'd like to add that the validity of the state of Israel has very little to do with the topic of this thread.

In Europe, people on the left often use this argument in order to justify their attacks on Israel, but as I feel I have pointed out and repeated, these same people are silent, to the point of criminality, on Islamic terrorism, both in the Middle east and here in Europe.

If 'anti zionism' really is a cause for concern, then 'anti Islamism' ought to be at least an equal concern.

And it isn't.

The only logical conclusion for this is because the 'zionists' pose a greater threat than the 'Islamists'. which they don't. The idea that a democratic and law abiding nation like Israel, simply by virtue of its existance, some how justifies violent attacks, all over the world is morally bancrupt and repugnant.


FreedomFries

How serious is anti semitism in Europe today?

Like others have mentioned, I think it is important to make some distinctions when talking about anti semtism:

First there is the Palestinian - Isreali conflict. One of the reasons Europeans often get called anti-semitic is because they critisize Isreal. This annoys me terribly. A lot of Europeans feel that Isreal takes actions against the Palestinians that cannot be condoned even in the name of national security. This does not mean that they are anti jewish or actively dislike the people of Isreal. I think it is important that that we can critisize Isreal without being countered by "not true, you people are just anti semitic". Unless you have a very black and white view of the conflict, I dont think you can deny that Isreal has made mistakes in handling the Palestinians, and has gone as far as violating human rights. (note that im not approving palestine terrorists, just saying Isreal isnt blameless either). Here I must agree with moif, there seems to be a pro-Palestinian slant in some European media, but this seems to pertain only to the middle east conflict. I don't see pro-muslim anti jewish propaganda on the media I m watching. The only thing I m seeing is an increasingly critical attitude towards Israel. This is a different issue from anit semitism in Europe. Among Europeans the idea seems to live that Israel should alter its millitary policy and that the palestinian population (NOT terrorist groups) deserves humanitarian aid. Anyone who defines this as anti semitism, might be better of looking at their own prejudices.



Secondly: Anti jewish feelings in Europe itself. Here one has to make the distinction between the general European populace and the minority of Muslim immigrants.

Among the general populace anit-semitism is rare I think. People might have issues with some of Israels actions, but not with jewish people. Jewish people living in Europe tend to be seen as well integrated and go unnoticed. The only anti semtitism I know of, is among neo nazi groups that hate anyone not white and christian. Among the average European there seems to be a much stronger anti muslim feeling. Immigration mainly from Turkey and Marrokko has created a muslim minority in a lot of European countries. This minority is seen by a lot of Europeans as unwilling to integrate, and having a high rate of crime. Gangs of young muslims harassing people have also contributed to a sense of insecurity among people. This has caused anti muslim feelings and an increase in popularity of (extreme) right wing political parties in western europe (eg. Pim Fortuyn in Holland, Vlaams Belang in Belgium, Front National in France ). European media and polical parties have tried to go against this muslim dislike. This is what I think has created what moif seems to consider pro-muslim media. Currently there is a climate in Europe were it isn't politcally correct to critisize muslims. People avoid making statements about problems caused by the muslim minority from fear of being called racist. Now this is not really a pro-muslim/anti-jewish bias, it is a (poorly conceived in my view) reaction to actual racial tensions. Many Europeans are not happy with this, and this was one of the things that motivated pro-free speech rallies during the mohammed cartoon fiasco. Also regardless of the fact that it is difficult to talk about perceived problems with the muslim community I ve never seen any evidence that media are refusing to report anti-semitic crimes (also see later).

Among muslims living in Europe there do seem to live a lot of anti-jewish feelings. Recently there also seems to be an increase in anti-jewish attacks commited by extremist muslims. Now these muslims are generally viewed by Europeans as radicals, and most Europeans I ve talked to view them as a problem rather than jewish people. I agree that this is a problem, but I dont see how the actions of a minority should lead to the characterisation of the whole of Europe as anti-semitic.

If, as the evidence suggests, the bulk of anti semitic crimes are being carried out by Muslims, just what responsibility does the rest of Europe bear?

Personally I dont see how Europe can be held accountable unless these crimes are actively promoted or allowed to go unpunished. I don't think either is the case.

And in reply to moif:
I don't know what media you are watching but in Belgian media anti-jewish crimes get a lot of attention, even if they happen in other European nations. (and I've never heard anyone condoning them) It even seems to me that the very fact that a crime might be inspired by anti semitic feelings, makes it newsworthy. Ive seen reports on the Belgian national news of anti semitic incidents that would not have made the news but for the fact that they targetted jews (Note: Im not claiming that anti semtic crimes get more attention, just that all hate crimes are more likely to be in the news and that they certainly dont seem to be covered up like you imply.)

Is this perspective valid? Is Europe, gripped by anti semitic and anti American attitudes becoming an actual threat to the USA?

Anti american feelings are on the rise in Europe, this seems to be true. But I believe this is largely due to G. Bush and recent political events. Europeans have had a dislike for certain aspects of American politics for a long time, and recent events (war on terror, iraq) have deteriorated this matter. But a threat? I dont see how. As I said , there is a dislike of certain American actions, I dont see a burning hatred or will to destroy the US among the general European population. This is also a different issue from anti-semistism, just like anti isreali feelings.

The radical muslim population might be an actual threat, and they are seen as such by a lot of Europeans. As ive said before I dont think you can hold Europe (or even muslims in general) accountable for the actions of this minority.
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