Full Version: China accuses U.S. of rights abuse.
QUOTE
"We urge the United States government to face squarely their own human rights problems, reflect on their own actions, take practical measures and improve their human rights situation," the report, carried by the official Xinhua news agency, said.
Other abuses involved "secret snooping, police abuse, wrong convictions and the highest ratio of people behind bars", it said.
"The United States has always boasted itself as the model of democracy and hawked its mode of democracy to the rest of the world, but in fact, American 'democracy' is always one for the wealthy and a 'game for the rich'," it said.
Other abuses involved "secret snooping, police abuse, wrong convictions and the highest ratio of people behind bars", it said.
"The United States has always boasted itself as the model of democracy and hawked its mode of democracy to the rest of the world, but in fact, American 'democracy' is always one for the wealthy and a 'game for the rich'," it said.
(source)
Is china correct that the U.S. has human rights abuse problems?
Does China have a leg to stand on?
Is china correct that the U.S. has human rights abuse problems?
Does China have a leg to stand on?
Good one, China!!
Let's see, is murder done by private citizens a human rights violation? Maybe the US government should jail everyone and only let out "approved" citizens. Then murders would go down, I think.
What about wiretapping? Is that a "human rights violation"? I think not. At worst, it is aggressive law enforcement. I'm still waiting for the story of someone being snatched off the street by the G men.
Of course, we need to look at China's definition of rights which include food, clothing and housing for all, but does not include individual liberty. So the fact that there are any homeless in the US is a human rights violation, but people being shot or jailed for being in opposition to the Chinese government is simply law enforcement.
Alas, it is difficult to find stories of Chinese abuses because the media is controlled by the state. Everything you hear from the Chinese is (potentially) propaganda. At least in the US, abuses are reported and corrections (either political or criminal) are possible. No such safeguard exists in the People's Republic.
You see, real human rights violations are such things as officially sanctioned rapes of Falun Gong practitioners.
or jailing scientists for divulging information on AIDS.
or
forced relocation of over a million people.
or
6 protestors killed
or
"We could disappear at any time"
Come on, China...
Does China have a leg to stand on?
Good one, China!!
Let's see, is murder done by private citizens a human rights violation? Maybe the US government should jail everyone and only let out "approved" citizens. Then murders would go down, I think.
What about wiretapping? Is that a "human rights violation"? I think not. At worst, it is aggressive law enforcement. I'm still waiting for the story of someone being snatched off the street by the G men.
Of course, we need to look at China's definition of rights which include food, clothing and housing for all, but does not include individual liberty. So the fact that there are any homeless in the US is a human rights violation, but people being shot or jailed for being in opposition to the Chinese government is simply law enforcement.
Alas, it is difficult to find stories of Chinese abuses because the media is controlled by the state. Everything you hear from the Chinese is (potentially) propaganda. At least in the US, abuses are reported and corrections (either political or criminal) are possible. No such safeguard exists in the People's Republic.
You see, real human rights violations are such things as officially sanctioned rapes of Falun Gong practitioners.
or jailing scientists for divulging information on AIDS.
or
forced relocation of over a million people.
or
6 protestors killed
or
"We could disappear at any time"
Come on, China...
Is china correct that the U.S. has human rights abuse problems?
Unfortunately I think they do. This is what happens when you lower yourself to the level of nations like China. Suddenly, they can look down on you. It doesn't matter to the leadership of China whether or not they are being hypocritical or not. All that really matters to them is that they know there are plenty of people in the world who will draw a moral comparison between the USA and China because of the forced detentions at Guantanamo Bay.
By making this sort of statement, the Chinese are helping to undermine any moral authority the USA might carry in the world forum of the UN. By doing this they weaken the USA and thus strengthen their own position, after all, who will stand against China if the Chinese can point the finger in return?
Does China have a leg to stand on?
No, but it does have a mountain of skulls from which dizzying height the unashamed hypocrites in Beijing can look down upon all around them.
Unfortunately I think they do. This is what happens when you lower yourself to the level of nations like China. Suddenly, they can look down on you. It doesn't matter to the leadership of China whether or not they are being hypocritical or not. All that really matters to them is that they know there are plenty of people in the world who will draw a moral comparison between the USA and China because of the forced detentions at Guantanamo Bay.
By making this sort of statement, the Chinese are helping to undermine any moral authority the USA might carry in the world forum of the UN. By doing this they weaken the USA and thus strengthen their own position, after all, who will stand against China if the Chinese can point the finger in return?
Does China have a leg to stand on?
No, but it does have a mountain of skulls from which dizzying height the unashamed hypocrites in Beijing can look down upon all around them.
QUOTE
Suddenly
There was nothing sudden about the Chinese considering the US as two-faced in relation to their own human rights abuses. They've been pointing it out for years. Also, they have inside knowledge of US abuses from their own Vietnam experience. Most of the planet have no illusions about this. Why do North Americans pretend their forces are wearing white hats when they kill other people? Besides, Gitmo makes China's case by itself.
Is china correct that the U.S. has human rights abuse problems?
Does China have a leg to stand on?
They make a good point. We have a bad habit of trying to push our ideologies onto other countries when we can't even get it right at home. There is so much rhetoric about democracy, yet any given election can disenfranchise as much as half the population simply because the individual they chose to represent them in the government didn't "win" the seat giveaway contest. As a result, the elected end up "representing" a significant number of people who oppose them. This is why smear campaigns are so effective. We can't vote for someone to represent our interests, so we vote against the one who represents it least. Certainly, it could be worse, but it still is not a democracy.
The prisons are pretty bad, too. We like to lock people up instead of finding more creative punishments. Caught a thief? Put him on parole until he repays triple the value of stolen goods and damages plus interest. Garnish his wages if you have to. He doesn't need to be in prison. Drunk driver? Take away his license. Public indecency? Fine them. Drug possession? As if possession of non-lethal substances should even be a crime. None of these offences alone suggest that the individual is so dangerous that they must be removed from society.
It's nice to see that China isn't trying to say that they have it right, because they don't. This is simply a way for them to say that we should judge ourselves and set an example.
Does China have a leg to stand on?
They make a good point. We have a bad habit of trying to push our ideologies onto other countries when we can't even get it right at home. There is so much rhetoric about democracy, yet any given election can disenfranchise as much as half the population simply because the individual they chose to represent them in the government didn't "win" the seat giveaway contest. As a result, the elected end up "representing" a significant number of people who oppose them. This is why smear campaigns are so effective. We can't vote for someone to represent our interests, so we vote against the one who represents it least. Certainly, it could be worse, but it still is not a democracy.
The prisons are pretty bad, too. We like to lock people up instead of finding more creative punishments. Caught a thief? Put him on parole until he repays triple the value of stolen goods and damages plus interest. Garnish his wages if you have to. He doesn't need to be in prison. Drunk driver? Take away his license. Public indecency? Fine them. Drug possession? As if possession of non-lethal substances should even be a crime. None of these offences alone suggest that the individual is so dangerous that they must be removed from society.
It's nice to see that China isn't trying to say that they have it right, because they don't. This is simply a way for them to say that we should judge ourselves and set an example.
QUOTE(crashfourit @ Mar 9 2006, 07:01 AM)
Is China correct that the U.S. has human rights abuse problems?
Domesticaly, I don't know.
But, on the international stage; America has proven to be capable of terrible things; even when we overlook the events of the "Cold War". America has seen fit to support dictators to "defend democracy" and bomb civilians to "promote peace".
China has a point BUT...
QUOTE(crashfourit @ Mar 9 2006, 07:01 AM)
Does China have a leg to stand on?
... when it come to human rights, China is no better, if not worse. I seriously doubt that this was an act of compassion. History tells us that superpowers and potential superpowers are not moved by the cries of the suffering. Besides China has a long record of human rights violations.
Geez, do we have to go through this every year? I remember responding to a similar thread last year. The bottomline is this:
1. Yes, China has a lot of problems, some of which can be blamed on the government, like censorship of media, lack of independent oversight of law enforcement, and limits on free speech; but many abuses are often acts of individual officers or a corrupt few. And the government does prosecute some of those abusers, as is detailed in the U.S. State Department's 2005 Report on Human Rights in China:
2. It is as hypocritical for the U.S. to criticize China when Gitmo and Abu Graib is going on and when someone who wrote the "Torture Memo" got promoted to a cabinet position, as it is for China to criticize the U.S. on human rights.
1. Yes, China has a lot of problems, some of which can be blamed on the government, like censorship of media, lack of independent oversight of law enforcement, and limits on free speech; but many abuses are often acts of individual officers or a corrupt few. And the government does prosecute some of those abusers, as is detailed in the U.S. State Department's 2005 Report on Human Rights in China:
QUOTE
"During the year police continued to use torture to coerce confessions from criminal suspects, although the government made efforts to address the problem of torture. A one-year campaign by the Supreme People's Procuratorate (SPP) to punish officials who infringed on human rights, including coercing confessions through torture or illegally detaining or mistreating prisoners, ended in May. The campaign uncovered more than 3,700 cases of official abuse.
A series of wrongful convictions in murder cases came to light in which innocent persons were convicted on the basis of coerced confessions. Among them, Nie Shubin of Hebei Province, who was executed in 1995 for a murder-rape, was exonerated in January after the true killer confessed. She Xianglin of Hubei Province was exonerated in March of murdering his wife in 1994 after she reappeared alive and well. The SPP campaign resulted in the prosecution of 1,924 officers and 1,450 convictions. Among them, a Gansu Province police officer was sentenced to life in prison in January for torturing a suspect to death. In June three Yunnan Province police officers were sentenced to one year in prison for torturing a suspect and rendering him disabled. At the campaign's conclusion, the SPP announced that preventing coerced confessions was its most important supervisory priority. Scholars advocated reform of police interrogation practices. In one highly publicized experiment, officials ordered audio and videotaping of police interrogations. Suspects in a few locations were offered the opportunity to have a lawyer present during interrogation. "
A series of wrongful convictions in murder cases came to light in which innocent persons were convicted on the basis of coerced confessions. Among them, Nie Shubin of Hebei Province, who was executed in 1995 for a murder-rape, was exonerated in January after the true killer confessed. She Xianglin of Hubei Province was exonerated in March of murdering his wife in 1994 after she reappeared alive and well. The SPP campaign resulted in the prosecution of 1,924 officers and 1,450 convictions. Among them, a Gansu Province police officer was sentenced to life in prison in January for torturing a suspect to death. In June three Yunnan Province police officers were sentenced to one year in prison for torturing a suspect and rendering him disabled. At the campaign's conclusion, the SPP announced that preventing coerced confessions was its most important supervisory priority. Scholars advocated reform of police interrogation practices. In one highly publicized experiment, officials ordered audio and videotaping of police interrogations. Suspects in a few locations were offered the opportunity to have a lawyer present during interrogation. "
2. It is as hypocritical for the U.S. to criticize China when Gitmo and Abu Graib is going on and when someone who wrote the "Torture Memo" got promoted to a cabinet position, as it is for China to criticize the U.S. on human rights.
I think there is a topic here which is getting mudled because of the unreasonable compaiason.
Yes, the US has human rights abuses. At home and abroad, they have been engaged in activities some of which have come to light and courts. There is no question there is blood on the hands of the administration.
HOWEVER, if (to make a metaphor) the Bush administration went for a drunk joyride and got into an accident puting some pedestrians in the hospital: China (to make a metaphor) broke into somebody's home and tortured the family to death, then did it again to another house.
There is no framework or realm of compairason for the two, and to discuss them in the same sentence is outragious. Thats not to say that what the US has done is not wrong; it is, and that wrong cannot be ignored or pushed aside. But seriously.
Ask the most rabid, anti-Bush-Jr person here... would they rather be a political dissident in the US or in China? Yeah, I thought so.
Yes, the US has human rights abuses. At home and abroad, they have been engaged in activities some of which have come to light and courts. There is no question there is blood on the hands of the administration.
HOWEVER, if (to make a metaphor) the Bush administration went for a drunk joyride and got into an accident puting some pedestrians in the hospital: China (to make a metaphor) broke into somebody's home and tortured the family to death, then did it again to another house.
There is no framework or realm of compairason for the two, and to discuss them in the same sentence is outragious. Thats not to say that what the US has done is not wrong; it is, and that wrong cannot be ignored or pushed aside. But seriously.
Ask the most rabid, anti-Bush-Jr person here... would they rather be a political dissident in the US or in China? Yeah, I thought so.
QUOTE(Vermillion @ Mar 11 2006, 06:32 AM)
HOWEVER, if (to make a metaphor) the Bush administration went for a drunk joyride and got into an accident puting some pedestrians in the hospital: China (to make a metaphor) broke into somebody's home and tortured the family to death, then did it again to another house.
... The more accurate metaphor should be: China stayed in his house and tortured his own family, don't you think? Afterall, China has not been involved in any external armed conflicts lately.
QUOTE(Vermillion @ Mar 10 2006, 01:32 PM)
I think there is a topic here which is getting mudled because of the unreasonable compaiason.
Yes, the US has human rights abuses. At home and abroad, they have been engaged in activities some of which have come to light and courts. There is no question there is blood on the hands of the administration.
HOWEVER, if (to make a metaphor) the Bush administration went for a drunk joyride and got into an accident puting some pedestrians in the hospital: China (to make a metaphor) broke into somebody's home and tortured the family to death, then did it again to another house.
There is no framework or realm of compairason for the two, and to discuss them in the same sentence is outragious. Thats not to say that what the US has done is not wrong; it is, and that wrong cannot be ignored or pushed aside. But seriously.
Ask the most rabid, anti-Bush-Jr person here... would they rather be a political dissident in the US or in China? Yeah, I thought so.
Yes, the US has human rights abuses. At home and abroad, they have been engaged in activities some of which have come to light and courts. There is no question there is blood on the hands of the administration.
HOWEVER, if (to make a metaphor) the Bush administration went for a drunk joyride and got into an accident puting some pedestrians in the hospital: China (to make a metaphor) broke into somebody's home and tortured the family to death, then did it again to another house.
There is no framework or realm of compairason for the two, and to discuss them in the same sentence is outragious. Thats not to say that what the US has done is not wrong; it is, and that wrong cannot be ignored or pushed aside. But seriously.
Ask the most rabid, anti-Bush-Jr person here... would they rather be a political dissident in the US or in China? Yeah, I thought so.
However- another angle is this: would you rather live under a regime set up in your country under China or the US? Would you even be able to tell which was worse? I mean- you study history Vermillion- US has a horrible record of backing regimes that commit massive crimes against humanity, and then protecting them when they finally get deposed- i.e.- the shah of Iran, Noriega, Pinochet etc etc.
I think America has a habit of having others do our dirty work for us- and we need to dwell on that for a bit. It is very similar to this "rendering" thing we are doing- were we capture someone, and then, take them to some country were torture is okay.
Hey "We" didn't ACTUALY DO the torturing- we just took them to someone that would.
Is china correct that the U.S. has human rights abuse problems?
Does China have a leg to stand on?
Certainly the US had done some things in the Cold War we cannot be proud of but to compare us to China where 100s of thousands of people have been murdered by the government and where people are not free today – is ludicrous.
Does China have a leg to stand on?
Certainly the US had done some things in the Cold War we cannot be proud of but to compare us to China where 100s of thousands of people have been murdered by the government and where people are not free today – is ludicrous.
I am not buying the "hey, they torture MORE than we do" line- just because the economy of scale is different- doesn't make it right. And allowing other countries to do our torturing is still just as evil as actually doing the torturing. We have to stop allowing OUR leaders to use "plausible deniability" as a back door avenue to torture and killing.
Okay- America didn't directly start the purge of Pinochet- but, instead, we installed and supported Pinochet. Does that make us less culpable than actually BEING Pinochet?
The US goverment didn't DIRECTLY give Saddam chemical weapons- but was instrumental in lifting the ban for them so our companies, french and german companies could freely do business with Saddam and allow him to arm himself with these weapons. We are no less culpable by saying "well, the Germans actually sold them the most"- because, had we actively fought his armament of NBC weaponry- he would probably have never obtained them from western goverments in the first place.
yes, in our FORIEGN policy- we are as bad as China- we just do it differently so we can claim innocence
Okay- America didn't directly start the purge of Pinochet- but, instead, we installed and supported Pinochet. Does that make us less culpable than actually BEING Pinochet?
The US goverment didn't DIRECTLY give Saddam chemical weapons- but was instrumental in lifting the ban for them so our companies, french and german companies could freely do business with Saddam and allow him to arm himself with these weapons. We are no less culpable by saying "well, the Germans actually sold them the most"- because, had we actively fought his armament of NBC weaponry- he would probably have never obtained them from western goverments in the first place.
yes, in our FORIEGN policy- we are as bad as China- we just do it differently so we can claim innocence
Look, the issue is one of scale and comparability. The logic here seems to be:
"The US does bad things, including torture. China does bad things, including torture. Therefore the US is the same a China."
That argument makes no attempt to consider scale, rule of laws or relative freedoms. You might as well replace China with Soviet Russia. Yes, technically both the Us and Soviet Rusia did bad things. No question. But that does not mean they are at all comparable, or if they are the compairason should be very one sided...
"The US does bad things, including torture. China does bad things, including torture. Therefore the US is the same a China."
That argument makes no attempt to consider scale, rule of laws or relative freedoms. You might as well replace China with Soviet Russia. Yes, technically both the Us and Soviet Rusia did bad things. No question. But that does not mean they are at all comparable, or if they are the compairason should be very one sided...
QUOTE(Vermillion @ Mar 14 2006, 09:17 PM)
Look, the issue is one of scale and comparability. The logic here seems to be:
"The US does bad things, including torture. China does bad things, including torture. Therefore the US is the same a China."
That argument makes no attempt to consider scale, rule of laws or relative freedoms. You might as well replace China with Soviet Russia. Yes, technically both the Us and Soviet Rusia did bad things. No question. But that does not mean they are at all comparable, or if they are the compairason should be very one sided...
"The US does bad things, including torture. China does bad things, including torture. Therefore the US is the same a China."
That argument makes no attempt to consider scale, rule of laws or relative freedoms. You might as well replace China with Soviet Russia. Yes, technically both the Us and Soviet Rusia did bad things. No question. But that does not mean they are at all comparable, or if they are the compairason should be very one sided...
Vermillion I find it nice to agree with you for a change! You hit the nail on the head. Most countries have done things they will never be proud of but also are not SOP for them whereas some regimes are quite willing to do these things all the time including to their own citizens.
I do not believe we use torture at Gitmo but we certainly don’t try to make our captives comfortable either (and we don’t have to). It will be interesting to see just how aggressive the US gets if/when we are hit again and more American civilians are murdered. Tactics like those used on 9/11 have a way of hardening the heart.
QUOTE(Vermillion @ Mar 15 2006, 02:17 AM)
Look, the issue is one of scale and comparability. The logic here seems to be:
"The US does bad things, including torture. China does bad things, including torture. Therefore the US is the same a China."
That argument makes no attempt to consider scale, rule of laws or relative freedoms. You might as well replace China with Soviet Russia. Yes, technically both the Us and Soviet Rusia did bad things. No question. But that does not mean they are at all comparable, or if they are the compairason should be very one sided...
"The US does bad things, including torture. China does bad things, including torture. Therefore the US is the same a China."
That argument makes no attempt to consider scale, rule of laws or relative freedoms. You might as well replace China with Soviet Russia. Yes, technically both the Us and Soviet Rusia did bad things. No question. But that does not mean they are at all comparable, or if they are the compairason should be very one sided...
So, in the context of this topic, whats the actual difference between China and the USSR...?
"We urge the United States government to face squarely their own human rights problems, reflect on their own actions, take practical measures and improve their human rights situation," the report, carried by the official Xinhua news agency, said.
While I would make no argument that the U.S. has an entirely clean record with respect to human rights, China lecturing the U.S. about human rights violations is the very definition of "the pot calling the kettle black."
I seem to recall China waging genocide for decades in Tibet, and similar human rights violations in the Xinjiang Province...
While I would make no argument that the U.S. has an entirely clean record with respect to human rights, China lecturing the U.S. about human rights violations is the very definition of "the pot calling the kettle black."
I seem to recall China waging genocide for decades in Tibet, and similar human rights violations in the Xinjiang Province...
Is china correct that the U.S. has human rights abuse problems?
Good God, yes. While these abuses have escalated considerably on the domestic front in the past five years, the US has been guilty of the convenient application of human rights globally for decades.
Does China have a leg to stand on?
While it's tempting to say "Physician, heal thyself" here, the fact that China - China, for God's sake - feels they are in a position to question our rights abuses should give us pause. It should also make us take a long, hard look at our policies and our leadership rather than leading us to simply attack the messenger.
Good God, yes. While these abuses have escalated considerably on the domestic front in the past five years, the US has been guilty of the convenient application of human rights globally for decades.
Does China have a leg to stand on?
While it's tempting to say "Physician, heal thyself" here, the fact that China - China, for God's sake - feels they are in a position to question our rights abuses should give us pause. It should also make us take a long, hard look at our policies and our leadership rather than leading us to simply attack the messenger.
This is a simplified version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.