Full Version: Bush and 9/11
QUOTE
TedN5. Griffin again pointed out that the hijacker who was suppose to be flying the plane was reputed to be a terrible pilot and would have had to perform a 270 degree turn with a rapid decent followed by a ground skimming run at the Pentagon. Numerous experienced airline pilot have indicated that they are not sure they could have done this and some have indicated that no inexperienced pilot could have.
I don't know about the 270 degree turn but a pilot I talked to is quite sure that the inexperienced pilot of flight 77 crashed into the Pentagon using the planes auto-pilot. I'll leave it to the pilots here to explain how that would have worked.
I've read Griffin and he pretty much covers the same ground as most of the conspiracists. I am sorry to see that Amy Goodman, who I highly respect, gave him air time. It may come back to haunt her in terms of her credibility.
My husband just got back from a TDY, and saw an old friend of ours. It turns out he is in the Washington DC guard and was the de facto mission commander over Washington skies on 911. He was circling over for seven hours.
So, all of the conspiracy "Gee! How could witnesses have heard planes when no flights were allowed in the skies after the Pentagon was hit?" is nonsense. Military planes were all over the place, to include fighters, tanker aircraft, helicopters, and even an AWACS made it out eventually (the closest ones were at Tyndall AFB in Florida).
Edited to add:
Honestly, I must wonder at this point what precisely do people think happened with the Pentagon? There was some sort of emergency procedure in the hall of Secret Agency
stating:
'Quickly! When two passenger planes hit the WTC, fire a missile directly into the wall of the Pentagon!
Or alternately....bring over some supersecret aircraft from hangar X to fly into the Pentagon! I've got it! A drone aircraft....fire some explosives! Anything! Just make sure a wall of the Pentagon comes down immediately after two passenger planes fly into the WTC!!!!! We can blame it on another passenger plane!'
I see. So, let me get this straight...highly reputable scientists with PhDs in the field analyzed this personally and are wrong, but some random guy who says he has an engineering degree and read the press clippings on which he has based his information second-hand is right? In that case, we have engineers on this very forum, maybe you should listen to what they say.....
So, all of the conspiracy "Gee! How could witnesses have heard planes when no flights were allowed in the skies after the Pentagon was hit?" is nonsense. Military planes were all over the place, to include fighters, tanker aircraft, helicopters, and even an AWACS made it out eventually (the closest ones were at Tyndall AFB in Florida).
Edited to add:
Honestly, I must wonder at this point what precisely do people think happened with the Pentagon? There was some sort of emergency procedure in the hall of Secret Agency
stating:'Quickly! When two passenger planes hit the WTC, fire a missile directly into the wall of the Pentagon!
Or alternately....bring over some supersecret aircraft from hangar X to fly into the Pentagon! I've got it! A drone aircraft....fire some explosives! Anything! Just make sure a wall of the Pentagon comes down immediately after two passenger planes fly into the WTC!!!!! We can blame it on another passenger plane!'
QUOTE(TedN5)
Of course the witnesses saw an aircraft, but what kind? Eye witness accounts are notoriously inaccurate in the details. To settle this issue we need an authoritative answer to such evidence as this from an aerospace mechanical engineer.
I see. So, let me get this straight...highly reputable scientists with PhDs in the field analyzed this personally and are wrong, but some random guy who says he has an engineering degree and read the press clippings on which he has based his information second-hand is right? In that case, we have engineers on this very forum, maybe you should listen to what they say.....
I hear ya Mrs P- but I tell you, it was earily quiet up here. We have some of the busiest airports in the country- and it was so, so quiet. No jumbo jets, just the military jets, and only the fighters, no transports. No small airplane traffic, at all!
If anything can be called funny those first few days, it was the air stories coming out of "the bush".
Small airplanes, out of radio contact, flying back to civilization, met in the air by F-15s and escorted home, with the F-15s barely able to stay in the air!
I talked to one of the pilots during that very quiet time, and he said he about soiled his pants, he had no indication of the F-15s, until they swooped up beside him, and started motioning for him to turn on his radio. Then they told him the whole horrible story, and he flew in shock all the way to Galina, the forward nuke plane base, and was grounded there.
so some planes did indeed fly!
If anything can be called funny those first few days, it was the air stories coming out of "the bush".
Small airplanes, out of radio contact, flying back to civilization, met in the air by F-15s and escorted home, with the F-15s barely able to stay in the air!
I talked to one of the pilots during that very quiet time, and he said he about soiled his pants, he had no indication of the F-15s, until they swooped up beside him, and started motioning for him to turn on his radio. Then they told him the whole horrible story, and he flew in shock all the way to Galina, the forward nuke plane base, and was grounded there.
so some planes did indeed fly!
QUOTE(Dingo @ May 18 2006, 05:26 PM)
QUOTE
TedN5. Griffin again pointed out that the hijacker who was suppose to be flying the plane was reputed to be a terrible pilot and would have had to perform a 270 degree turn with a rapid decent followed by a ground skimming run at the Pentagon. Numerous experienced airline pilot have indicated that they are not sure they could have done this and some have indicated that no inexperienced pilot could have.
I don't know about the 270 degree turn but a pilot I talked to is quite sure that the inexperienced pilot of flight 77 crashed into the Pentagon using the planes auto-pilot. I'll leave it to the pilots here to explain how that would have worked.
I'm a private pilot, but I haven't flown much since 9/11, and almost all my time was in a little Cessna 172. I don't have any personal experience with these big Boeings. But Patrick Smith, author of Salon.com's Ask the Pilot column tackles this question:
QUOTE
Reality: As I've explained in at least one prior column, Hani Hanjour's flying was hardly the show-quality demonstration often described. It was exceptional only in its recklessness.
. . .
"They'd done their homework and they had what they needed," says a United Airlines pilot (name withheld on request), who has flown every model of Boeing from the 737 up. "Rudimentary knowledge and fearlessness."
"As everyone saw, their flying was sloppy and aggressive," says Michael (last name withheld), a pilot with several thousand hours in 757s and 767s. "Their skills and experience, or lack thereof, just weren't relevant."
"The hijackers required only the shallow understanding of the aircraft," agrees Ken Hertz, an airline pilot rated on the 757/767. "In much the same way that a person needn't be an experienced physician in order to perform CPR or set a broken bone."
That sentiment is echoed by Joe d'Eon, airline pilot and host of the "Fly With Me" podcast series. "It's the difference between a doctor and a butcher," says d'Eon.
. . .
"They'd done their homework and they had what they needed," says a United Airlines pilot (name withheld on request), who has flown every model of Boeing from the 737 up. "Rudimentary knowledge and fearlessness."
"As everyone saw, their flying was sloppy and aggressive," says Michael (last name withheld), a pilot with several thousand hours in 757s and 767s. "Their skills and experience, or lack thereof, just weren't relevant."
"The hijackers required only the shallow understanding of the aircraft," agrees Ken Hertz, an airline pilot rated on the 757/767. "In much the same way that a person needn't be an experienced physician in order to perform CPR or set a broken bone."
That sentiment is echoed by Joe d'Eon, airline pilot and host of the "Fly With Me" podcast series. "It's the difference between a doctor and a butcher," says d'Eon.
Smith also discusses the alleged lack of wreckage at the Pentagon, and some other topics mentioned in this thread. Check it out.
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