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RedCedar
QUOTE
Advocates of legalizing illegal aliens and increasing legal immigration argue that there are no Americans to fill low-wage jobs that require relatively little education. However, data collected by the Census Bureau show that, even prior to Hurricane Katrina, there were almost four million unemployed adult natives (age 18 to 64) with just a high school degree or less, and another 19 million not in the labor force. Perhaps most troubling, the share of these less-educated adult natives in the labor force has declined steadily since 2000.


http://www.cis.org/articles/2006/back206.html

My question:

Despite obvious polls showing that Americans want an end or a slowdown of immigration, legal or otherwise, why is there no politician taking up this position?

And how badly are we hurting ourselves by continuing to let this continue?
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lederuvdapac
Despite obvious polls showing that Americans want an end or a slowdown of immigration, legal or otherwise, why is there no politician taking up this position?

Only two reasons pop into my head at the moment: a) some politicians actually support illegal immigration for economic reasons and cool.gif anyone who seems like they oppose illegal immigration is deemed racist by hispanic groups. And in US politics, the last thing you want is to be framed as a racist.

And how badly are we hurting ourselves by continuing to let this continue?

Well like most issues there are two sides to this. We lose a ton of money in healthcare and education but the cheap labor that they provide could theoretically be just as valuable. I know people are going to say that they take American jobs and I am in no way a supporter of illegal immigration but they do do jobs normal Americans don't and the unemployment rate in this country is so low that it is obvious that there are jobs out there for the taking.
RedCedar
QUOTE(lederuvdapac @ Mar 23 2006, 10:49 AM)
Well like most issues there are two sides to this. We lose a ton of money in healthcare and education but the cheap labor that they provide could theoretically be just as valuable. I know people are going to say that they take American jobs and I am in no way a supporter of illegal immigration but they do do jobs normal Americans don't and the unemployment rate in this country is so low that it is obvious that there are jobs out there for the taking.


I don't think you read the link. There are indeed few and fewer jobs for the uneducated and poor native AMericans. You may want to read the link and respond again. The UE numbers are not really a good representation of how many people are TRULY unemployed.
London2LA
QUOTE
Well like most issues there are two sides to this. We lose a ton of money in healthcare and education but the cheap labor that they provide could theoretically be just as valuable. I know people are going to say that they take American jobs and I am in no way a supporter of illegal immigration but they do do jobs normal Americans don't and the unemployment rate in this country is so low that it is obvious that there are jobs out there for the taking.Case in point


I hire illegal immigrants. Its not that I want to, its just that if I want a gardener then thats who is willing to do that job. Americans and any other legal residents are more than welcome, I've just never had one apply. Its not that the money is bad, I pay $100 per month, he's here about an hour so I figure he can do 6 jobs a day, he works 6 days a week so thats 6 X 6 X $100 = $3600 per month cash, thats $43K per year. Imagine if these guys were paying taxes!.

I can only conclude that no-one other than illegals are willing to do that kind of hard work, the money is certainly not to be looked down on, heck thats more than I make some years as a freelance software engineer. I suspect that if all the illegals were suddenly gone tomorrow, I wouldn't suddenly see the neighborhood full of Americans with leaf-blowers.

RedCedar
QUOTE(London2LA @ Mar 23 2006, 01:45 PM)
QUOTE
Well like most issues there are two sides to this. We lose a ton of money in healthcare and education but the cheap labor that they provide could theoretically be just as valuable. I know people are going to say that they take American jobs and I am in no way a supporter of illegal immigration but they do do jobs normal Americans don't and the unemployment rate in this country is so low that it is obvious that there are jobs out there for the taking.Case in point


I hire illegal immigrants. Its not that I want to, its just that if I want a gardener then thats who is willing to do that job. Americans and any other legal residents are more than welcome, I've just never had one apply. Its not that the money is bad, I pay $100 per month, he's here about an hour so I figure he can do 6 jobs a day, he works 6 days a week so thats 6 X 6 X $100 = $3600 per month cash, thats $43K per year. Imagine if these guys were paying taxes!.

I can only conclude that no-one other than illegals are willing to do that kind of hard work, the money is certainly not to be looked down on, heck thats more than I make some years as a freelance software engineer. I suspect that if all the illegals were suddenly gone tomorrow, I wouldn't suddenly see the neighborhood full of Americans with leaf-blowers.
*



Maybe locals assume you're paying much less. And what do you expect to be done in that hour?

If you're in California then maybe you couldn't find someone. I worked landscaping while going through college and it wasn't that much money per hour but I worked 60+ hours/week and ended up with some big checks.

All that work is now being done my Mexicans for much, much less....I assume. Those were jobs that got kids through college, now just aren't there.

People can say there would be no native Americans who would do that stuff after seeing only Mexicans doing it....but I did that work. I'd do your gardening for $43K/year....WHERE DO YOU LIVE?? tongue.gif

I think it's nonsense that Americans wouldn't do that work. Unless you have a very liberal welfare system where you live, there are poor people that need to eat.

Personally, I think McDonalds is 1000X worse than doing landscaping or gardening. I'd gladly go back to gardening and give up cube job now.

Ted
QUOTE
My question:

Despite obvious polls showing that Americans want an end or a slowdown of immigration, legal or otherwise, why is there no politician taking up this position?


Because the 12,000,000 here and the people they work for now have political power. The polls on the Democrat side also see the opportunity to get some extra votes since their research shows illegal aliens would vote for them over Republicans. Obviously industries that reap the benefit of cheap labor are all over their congress people to let them all in.

QUOTE
And how badly are we hurting ourselves by continuing to let this continue?


There is no doubt that the flood hurts workers in whatever industry they work in. The idea they all do jobs Americans won’t do is ludicrous. Our economy gets a double hit by these people. They take jobs at lower wages and deprive citizens of jobs. These citizens must then collect unemployment or welfare. The illegal aliens cost us a ton of money in healthcare and services and what is worse they pay little or no taxes and send most of their earnings out of the country. We are literally supporting the Mexican economy doing this at great expense to ourselves.

Even liberal economist Paul Samuelson and other feel this is a net negative for the country and our legal workers.

President Bush and some members of Congress have proposed legalizing illegal aliens and substantially increasing legal immigration. Economic theory predicts that increasing the supply of labor in this way will reduce earnings for natives in competition with immigrants. This study examines the economic impact of increases in the number of immigrant workers by their education level and experience in the work force, using Census data from 1960 through 2000. Statistical analysis shows that when immigration increases the supply of workers in a skill category, the earnings of native-born workers in that same category fall. The negative effect will occur regardless of whether the immigrant workers are legal or illegal, temporary or permanent. Any sizable increase in the number of immigrants will inevitably lower wages for some American workers. Conversely, reducing the supply of labor by strict immigration enforcement and reduced legal immigration would increase the earnings of native workers.http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/back504.html
JeepMan


My question:

Despite obvious polls showing that Americans want an end or a slowdown of immigration, legal or otherwise, why is there no politician taking up this position?

And how badly are we hurting ourselves by continuing to let this continue?

*

[/quote]


Of course AMericans want a slowdown, they are here now, they enjoy the benefits of being American, they just don't want anyone else to share in the good times, what a bunch of selfish idiots. These polled people who by the majority want a end or slowdown to immigration, do they have any constructive ideas on how to do this, no, they just complain and whine. No politician would want to restrict immigration because it means more votes, more chance to swell bloated, failed government programs.

Humans breed, it is what we do. Humans look for more space, better land, better climate, more freedom. America offers this, at least right now. In 20 years, we'll be like China or India, crowded and polluted like nobody's business.
A left Handed person
Despite obvious polls showing that Americans want an end or a slowdown of immigration, legal or otherwise, why is there no politician taking up this position?

This premise is false.

Thinking now about immigrants -- that is, people who come from other countries to live here in the United States: In your view, should immigration be kept at its present level, increased or decreased?

Present level: 35%

Increased: 15%

Decreased 47%

Unsure: 4%


Which comes closest to your view about what government policy should be toward illegal immigrants currently residing in the United States? Should the government deport all illegal immigrants back to their home country, allow illegal immigrants to remain in the United States in order to work but only for a limited amount of time, or allow illegal immigrants to remain in the United States and become U.S. citizens but only if they meet certain requirements over a period of time?

Deport all: 18%

Remain for a limited time: 17%

Remain if meet certain requirments: 63%

Unsure: 2%


Politicians are somewhat afraid of this issue, because they can't take a stand on it without alienating at least one large voter base.

Whats happening right now is that they can't agree on what do, and as a result are alienating both sides simultaniously...

And how badly are we hurting ourselves by continuing to let this continue?

Since you state it as "ourselves", I won't get into a side arguement about foreign well being.

I will however go into the issues of practicality, and consumer benefit.

To begin with our unemployed population is not large enough to replace all of the jobs taken by illegal immigrants. Therefore, it is literally impossible for us to pick up the slack of a deported immigrant population of 12 million.

Also, whilst lowering the supply of workers will increase their salaries, it will also make products more expensive, and therefore hurt the consumer.
TruthMarch
There is one important piece of thought which needs to be considered in reference to the so-called "illegal aliens" flooding into the US. Martial law. We all know there are limits on the freedoms which used to be a given pre-911. We see it in the Patriot act and Bush's decision to illegally listen in on private conversations. That's undeniable.
Here's where it gets very realistic.
Americans are a paranoid bunch. "Communism is the enemy!" "Drug lords are the enemy!" "Terrorists are the enemy!". Always a group to fear. To fully impose martial law in the US, there needs to be a calamity in and/or against Americans, which can be pinned on a particular group, this time being terrorists. This is difficult to piece together right now so I will just capsulize it by saying illegals and major (black Muslim) street gangs will one day find themselves elevated, in the MSM, to being captains in Al-Queda and a scary new enemy who needs to be put down. All they need is a few "illegals" to wreak bloody havok somewhere in the US, leading to serious casualties the American public will scream to avenge.
Another footnote to this is the policy of granting green cards to immigrants who enlist in the US military. Or maybe more accurately, they get to the absolute top of the waiting list.
aevans176
QUOTE(TruthMarch @ Apr 19 2006, 09:10 AM)
There is one important piece of thought which needs to be considered in reference to the so-called "illegal aliens" flooding into the US. Martial law. We all know there are limits on the freedoms which used to be a given pre-911. We see it in the Patriot act and Bush's decision to illegally listen in on private conversations. That's undeniable.
Here's where it gets very realistic.
Americans are a paranoid bunch.  "Communism is the enemy!" "Drug lords are the enemy!" "Terrorists are the enemy!". Always a group to fear. To fully impose martial law in the US, there needs to be a calamity in and/or against Americans, which can be pinned on a particular group, this time being terrorists. This is difficult to piece together right now so I will just capsulize it by saying illegals and major (black Muslim) street gangs will one day find themselves elevated, in the MSM, to being captains in Al-Queda and a scary new enemy who needs to be put down. All they need is a few "illegals" to wreak bloody havok somewhere in the US, leading to serious casualties the American public will scream to avenge.
Another footnote to this is the policy of granting green cards to immigrants who enlist in the US military. Or maybe more accurately, they get to the absolute top of the waiting list.
*



I think this one deserves a big HUH???

Black Muslim Street Gangs and Illegals will be in the same vain as Al Qaeda??? Ok... immigrants aren't granted a faster green card, but do have an expedited naturalization.

The thing about immigrants in the military is that they contribute as much as naturalized citizens, historically speaking.
QUOTE
Historically, immigrants have made significant contributions to defense of America:

More than 20 percent of the recipients of the Congressional Medal of Honor in U.S. wars have been immigrants, a total of 716 of the 3,406 Medal of Honor recipients have been immigrants.


500,000 immigrants fought in the Union Army during the Civil War.


A special regimental combat team made up of the sons of Japanese immigrants was the most decorated of its size during World War II.


Major U.S. weapons, such as a more advanced ironclad ship, the submarine, the helicopter, and the atomic and hydrogen bombs were developed by immigrants.


After the passage of Section 329 of the Immigration and Nationality Act, 143,000 non-citizen military participants in World Wars I and II, and 31,000 members of the U.S. military who fought during the Korean War, became naturalized American citizens, according to White House statistics


Illegal immigration isn't a paranoia, but moreover a growing problem in the US. It affects our safety, economy, and overall soverignty as a nation. I can't imagine another place where natural born citizens defend protesters who fly the flags of other nations openly, so as to mock the nation in which they reside.
Google
Ted
QUOTE
Despite obvious polls showing that Americans want an end or a slowdown of immigration, legal or otherwise, why is there no politician taking up this position?
Because they are beholden to one group or another. Both parties to the businesses that use the illegal labor and Dems to the Unions who hope to add them to their ranks. IMO Dems also feel that they win the most votes if/when these folks can vote.

QUOTE
And how badly are we hurting ourselves by continuing to let this continue?

A lot – to the tune of over a trillion dollars in the decades ahead. Illegal aliens cost working class folks and legal aliens jobs and lower the pay scale in any industry they are in heavily.

entspeak
QUOTE(London2LA @ Mar 23 2006, 10:45 AM)
QUOTE
Well like most issues there are two sides to this. We lose a ton of money in healthcare and education but the cheap labor that they provide could theoretically be just as valuable. I know people are going to say that they take American jobs and I am in no way a supporter of illegal immigration but they do do jobs normal Americans don't and the unemployment rate in this country is so low that it is obvious that there are jobs out there for the taking.Case in point


I hire illegal immigrants. Its not that I want to, its just that if I want a gardener then thats who is willing to do that job. Americans and any other legal residents are more than welcome, I've just never had one apply. Its not that the money is bad, I pay $100 per month, he's here about an hour so I figure he can do 6 jobs a day, he works 6 days a week so thats 6 X 6 X $100 = $3600 per month cash, thats $43K per year. Imagine if these guys were paying taxes!.

I can only conclude that no-one other than illegals are willing to do that kind of hard work, the money is certainly not to be looked down on, heck thats more than I make some years as a freelance software engineer. I suspect that if all the illegals were suddenly gone tomorrow, I wouldn't suddenly see the neighborhood full of Americans with leaf-blowers.
*



Umm... perhaps this makes you feel good to think that this individual is making so much money and that you are actually paying well. But your math is off. Are you saying he only works for you once a month? You pay him $100 for an hour's work? If he only works for you once a month and manages to find 5 different people to work for that day and 6 others to work for the rest of the 6 days then he is making – not $3600/month, but $3600/week and $187,000/year. Of course, that would mean he would have 6 different clients each day during the month.

However, I think it more likely that when you say he works 6 days a week, you mean he works 6 days a week for you for about an hour a day. This means he is 6 hours a week for you... roughly 24 hours a month. This means you are paying him about $4/hour – well below minimum wage. If he does 6 jobs a day in the same manner, 6 days a week he's making $600 dollars a month... $7200/year. Sounds enticing. Yeah, I'd want that job. wacko.gif

So, yeah... the money's bad... the money's crap and you should be ashamed of yourself. It's no wonder you're not getting legal residents and citizens. Any citizen or legal resident with basic math skills would turn you down in a heartbeat.
RedCedar
QUOTE(entspeak @ May 2 2006, 09:59 AM)
But your math is off. 


Yeah, it doesn't really make much sense. I didn't read it that closely, but the figures are a bit confusing.

If he says he's there an hour and gets paid $100, uh that's $100/hr? Or $200,000/year? Indeed just about ANY american would do that work for that cash.

I'm not sure why people think mowing a lawn or gardening is dirty work. It sure beats being a cube jockey who has to track down dead beats or being a telemarketer.

I'm guessing $100/month is for more than 1 hour of work.

As for "no Americans would be in the streets with leaf blowers" I can point my digital camera out my window and take a snap shot of my non-illegal neighbors who have their own landscaping (really grass cutting) business that keeps food on their table. By bringing in illegals and paying them nothing, you're hurting them.
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