Full Version: Radio host loses job for racial slur...
From the article:
Lenihan was heaping praise on Rice and said this:
Within 20 minutes, he was fired.
To add insult to injury, Lenihan has been suspended from the Logan College of Chiropractic in Chesterfield, where Lenihan he is an instructor. He has been suspended while the school reviews his conduct.
In my opinion, this is PC correctness run amok. My questions for debate are:
Should Dave Lenihan have been fired from his job?
What response from his employer(s) would have been appropriate?
QUOTE
Dave Lenihan, who was in his second week as a morning show host on KTRS (550 AM), was fired Wednesday after saying the word “coon” while describing why U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice would fit well as commissioner of the National Football League.
Lenihan was heaping praise on Rice and said this:
QUOTE
She's been chancellor of Stanford. She's got the patent resume of somebody that has serious skill. She loves football. She's African-American, which would kind of be a big coon. A big coon. Oh my God. I am totally, totally, totally, totally, totally sorry for that. I didn't mean that. It was just a slip of the tongue. She's definitely got all the attributes to be commissioner. I'm really sorry about that.
Within 20 minutes, he was fired.
To add insult to injury, Lenihan has been suspended from the Logan College of Chiropractic in Chesterfield, where Lenihan he is an instructor. He has been suspended while the school reviews his conduct.
In my opinion, this is PC correctness run amok. My questions for debate are:
Should Dave Lenihan have been fired from his job?
What response from his employer(s) would have been appropriate?
Any other job it may be ok, but the guy represents the radio station and other people so unfortunately it's his problem.
The fact that he let it out that he may think of COndi as a coon will always leave doubt. THe radio station is just protecting themselves. It's kind of hard to defend even if it was a mistake.
When you're selling anything, even air time, you don't want to alienate anyone or give the wrong impressions.
Tough luck for the guy. If he let that fly who knows what might come out some other time that he really didn't mean. Time to find a new profession.
The fact that he let it out that he may think of COndi as a coon will always leave doubt. THe radio station is just protecting themselves. It's kind of hard to defend even if it was a mistake.
When you're selling anything, even air time, you don't want to alienate anyone or give the wrong impressions.
Tough luck for the guy. If he let that fly who knows what might come out some other time that he really didn't mean. Time to find a new profession.
Should Dave Lenihan have been fired from his job?
Well it appears he made a Freudian slip. Placed in context, the word "coon" was apparently supposed to be "coup". I would say if that is all there is to it then the firing from his radio talk job is definitely excessive, particularly since he apologized right afterwards. But of course I don't have the full background. If he had a pattern of racial put downs and a determination was made that the slip was not in fact a slip then you have a different ball game.
What response from his employer(s) would have been appropriate?
As to his being suspended from teaching chiropracty, if he was in fact prejudice but didn't bring his prejudices into the classroom I think that raises an interesting question about whether activities that are legal but objectionable in one area can be used to disqualify you in pursuing your profession in another unrelated area, particularly if you have been thoroughly professional in performing your job.
Well it appears he made a Freudian slip. Placed in context, the word "coon" was apparently supposed to be "coup". I would say if that is all there is to it then the firing from his radio talk job is definitely excessive, particularly since he apologized right afterwards. But of course I don't have the full background. If he had a pattern of racial put downs and a determination was made that the slip was not in fact a slip then you have a different ball game.
What response from his employer(s) would have been appropriate?
As to his being suspended from teaching chiropracty, if he was in fact prejudice but didn't bring his prejudices into the classroom I think that raises an interesting question about whether activities that are legal but objectionable in one area can be used to disqualify you in pursuing your profession in another unrelated area, particularly if you have been thoroughly professional in performing your job.
QUOTE(Dingo @ Mar 23 2006, 03:24 PM)
What response from his employer(s) would have been appropriate?
As to his being suspended from teaching chiropracty, if he was in fact prejudice but didn't bring his prejudices into the classroom I think that raises an interesting question about whether activities that are legal but objectionable in one area can be used to disqualify you in pursuing your profession in another unrelated area, particularly if you have been thoroughly professional in performing your job.
As to his being suspended from teaching chiropracty, if he was in fact prejudice but didn't bring his prejudices into the classroom I think that raises an interesting question about whether activities that are legal but objectionable in one area can be used to disqualify you in pursuing your profession in another unrelated area, particularly if you have been thoroughly professional in performing your job.
It's kind of inconceivable to me that he said it twice, and that's the only thing that gives me pause towards his explanation. But I could see that since he was new at Radio, he was probably doing something else while he was talking. Anyway, if I was his boss, I probably wouldn't fire him, but I can't really blame a boss that would, the radio station is tremendously liable PR-wise for a slip like that.
Should Dave Lenihan have been fired from his job?
Only in the respect that the radio station holds the right to hire and fire as they see fit. I don't see his slip as being worthy of the loss of his job. Driving home from work, I heard him being interviewed and taking callers questions on the Larry Elder show. He explained that what he meant to say was that an African-American women commissioner would be a coup in the NFL, and by the cadence of his voice, merged coup/in. Say it quickly and you will say 'coon' too.
Lenihan was praising Rice, and has shown no animosity towards her or blacks in general, so there is no reason to believe that his slip was the result of some deep seated racism.
In light of what other hosts, columnists and public figures say about Rice, on purpose. This is a non-story......except for the pathetically hyper-sensitive and those who are filled with hate and intolerance.
What response from his employer(s) would have been appropriate?
It's hard to say, since I'm not in the radio business. I don't know how much this slip would affect listenership and ratings.
Though I don't agree with firing him, the station manager has to do what he thinks is best for the business.
Only in the respect that the radio station holds the right to hire and fire as they see fit. I don't see his slip as being worthy of the loss of his job. Driving home from work, I heard him being interviewed and taking callers questions on the Larry Elder show. He explained that what he meant to say was that an African-American women commissioner would be a coup in the NFL, and by the cadence of his voice, merged coup/in. Say it quickly and you will say 'coon' too.
Lenihan was praising Rice, and has shown no animosity towards her or blacks in general, so there is no reason to believe that his slip was the result of some deep seated racism.
In light of what other hosts, columnists and public figures say about Rice, on purpose. This is a non-story......except for the pathetically hyper-sensitive and those who are filled with hate and intolerance.
What response from his employer(s) would have been appropriate?
It's hard to say, since I'm not in the radio business. I don't know how much this slip would affect listenership and ratings.
Though I don't agree with firing him, the station manager has to do what he thinks is best for the business.
QUOTE(DaytonRocker @ Mar 23 2006, 04:57 PM)
Should Dave Lenihan have been fired from his job?
What response from his employer(s) would have been appropriate?
Well, Lenihan had been canned after only two weeks on the job, so apparently he wasn't exactly irreplaceable. The station manager apparently thought it was a grievous enough slip of the tongue to fire the dude, so that's just the way of the world. Personally, I would have suspended the guy for a week or so and allowed him to issue an on-air apology.
"Political correctness?" Yeah, cry me a river. Why is it when somebody uses an obvious racial slur and gets called on it, it's the consequences and not the action that come in for criticism? The guy is supposed to be a professional. If he can't pronounce "coup" instead of "coon" then he's too incompetent to do his job correctly.
Sorry, Dontreadonme, but I'm not getting "coon" out of saying "coup" quickly. Nice attempt though at rationalizing Leinihan's malaprop. If Lenihan's mouth is faster than his brain, he deserves to get whacked out of his job until he learns to articulate clearly and distinctly.
QUOTE(nighttimer @ Mar 23 2006, 06:52 PM)
Nice attempt though at rationalizing Leinihan's malaprop.
Hmmm, a guy who admires and praises Rice, but means to call her a racial epithet....that makes sense......
I guess in today's world where a DC staffer can be fired for using a correct english word -niggardly- anything is possible anymore. I shouldn't really be surprised.
QUOTE(Dontreadonme @ Mar 23 2006, 08:03 PM)
I guess in today's world where a DC staffer can be fired for using a correct english word -niggardly- anything is possible anymore. I shouldn't really be surprised.
No, you shouldn't be surprised. Just as I'm not surprised when people try to rationalize the stupidity of others by saying, "Well, they didn't mean it" or "They simply misspoke."
Yeah, maybe so. But actions have consequences and if you say something really stupid maybe it shouldn't come as such a shock when you get fired for a stupid reason.
Maybe it's just a deja vu vibe that's fueling my lack of sympathy for poor ol' Dave.
A weekend television weatherman was fired after he made an on-air racial slur about Martin Luther King Jr., station officials said.
Rob Blair of KTNV-TV was delivering the extended forecast Saturday morning when he said: "For tomorrow, 60 degrees, Martin Luther Coon King Jr. Day, gonna see some temperatures in the mid-60s."
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?...&type=printable
It's too bad people have to lose their jobs over a brain fart, but they got themselves into these messes. Whatever happened to that "personal accountability" jive the conservatives are always wagging their fingers about?
I agree with you on the example that you provided NT, there is no way that anyone could make a slip of the tongue and get coon from King. And although I wouldn't have fired him (probably), the station had the right to, and I agree that they should retain that right. That would be a measure of that 'personal accountability jive', though I don't believe I wag any fingers.
I think that I am looking at Leinihan's words very objectively and if I say the word coup and in quickly, it sounds like coon.
I don't care one way or the other about the political stripe of the host, I can give him the benefit of the doubt on this. Why are you so adverse to doing the same?
I think that I am looking at Leinihan's words very objectively and if I say the word coup and in quickly, it sounds like coon.
I don't care one way or the other about the political stripe of the host, I can give him the benefit of the doubt on this. Why are you so adverse to doing the same?
QUOTE(Dontreadonme @ Mar 23 2006, 08:31 PM)
I don't care one way or the other about the political stripe of the host, I can give him the benefit of the doubt on this. Why are you so adverse to doing the same?
I'm not adverse to giving the poor slob a break. I wrote in my original post that if it were up to me I would have given Leinihan a one-week suspension and then the chance to make an on-air apology to anyone offended by his remarks.
The point here is not whether Leinihan meant his offensive remark. The point is he made the remark and in the view of the station manager that was a fireable offense. Sucks for Leinihan, but I'm not the one you have to convince he merely stumbled on his words.
For a little background, KTRS has gone into a make over mode since Christmas. Half the station was bought by the ownership of the St. Louis Cardinals. They have brought in almost an entirely new line up for the talk shows during the day, as well as the sports talk in the evenings. All of them seem to share the same trait of being "edgy". Some critics have even gone so far as to calling them shock jocks. In my opinion they are not there. However, there does seem to be a lack of substance and a quantity of attitude.
This may help to see where some such as Leinihan recognized he was being brought in to be provocative and his attempts to push the edge came to a impulsive choice of wording which crossed the line. I think he knew it as soon as he said it but brain storming for a line of challenging language took him a step too far and it came out before he had processed it.
This may help to see where some such as Leinihan recognized he was being brought in to be provocative and his attempts to push the edge came to a impulsive choice of wording which crossed the line. I think he knew it as soon as he said it but brain storming for a line of challenging language took him a step too far and it came out before he had processed it.
I would not have fired or suspended him. A warning to watch his mouth would have been enough. I think I would have allowed the fellow a chance to make a detailed, public explanation of his slip of the tongue.
Although I don't approve of the decision to fire/suspend him, I tend to think this was more a matter of the radio station and the college of chiropractic trying to avoid any hint of controversy (and loss of money) rather than "political correctness."
Although I don't approve of the decision to fire/suspend him, I tend to think this was more a matter of the radio station and the college of chiropractic trying to avoid any hint of controversy (and loss of money) rather than "political correctness."
Of course he should have been fired. Only a cretin would take the easy way out and make a racial slur while neglecting to take advantage of the rich vein of humor available by discussing Ms. Rice's assinine first name (what drugs were her parents taking when they came up with C-O-N-D-O-L-L-E-E-Z-Z-A as a serious name?), her Dead Beaver In Rigor Mortis hairdo, or her hideous snaggly teeth. I mean, do the feds not have dental insurance for their employees? 
QUOTE(nighttimer @ Mar 23 2006, 08:14 PM)
A weekend television weatherman was fired after he made an on-air racial slur about Martin Luther King Jr., station officials said.
Rob Blair of KTNV-TV was delivering the extended forecast Saturday morning when he said: "For tomorrow, 60 degrees, Martin Luther Coon King Jr. Day, gonna see some temperatures in the mid-60s."
Rob Blair of KTNV-TV was delivering the extended forecast Saturday morning when he said: "For tomorrow, 60 degrees, Martin Luther Coon King Jr. Day, gonna see some temperatures in the mid-60s."
I don't see how you can even make a comparison of "coon" placed somewhere where it obviously doesn't belong and compare it with Leinihan's comment. Your example isn't even remotely applicable, but if it creates racial tension, I suppose it's close enough for you.
It's not even plausible that Leinihan would ever say what people thought he meant. He was heaping praise on Rice for pete's sake. It simply is not plausible that Leinihan would use a racial slur while talking about how great Rice is. It simply doesn't pass the smell test.
Clearly, Leinihan was making a point that getting Rice on board, would be a coup in the NFL. He mixed "coup" and "in" together to make a tragic mistake. And he apologized profusely.
But is that good enough? No. Instead, we get opportunistic racism. Racism is so bad in this country, that since we can find blacks strung up in trees anymore, we'll have to settle on what something could have meant.
If you ask me, this is the type of response that sets race relations back. You don't even have to do anything to be a racist anymore. Now you're a racist if anything you say could be taken the wrong way.
Congrats nighttimer...you've found another shining example of how racism contines to hold the black man down. Somebody used a word associated with a racial slur and that works for you just fine. In true passive/aggressive behavior, you assume the guy is a racist and should be punished, but only support a suspension. Gee thanks.
What other words are we not allowed to say in conversation when discussing the merits of a black person? Please enlighten us. I want to know what I else I have to do to atone for the actions of anscestors I never even knew.
QUOTE(DaytonRocker @ Mar 23 2006, 05:57 PM)
From the
In my opinion, this is PC correctness run amok. My questions for debate are:
Should Dave Lenihan have been fired from his job?
What response from his employer(s) would have been appropriate?
In my opinion, this is PC correctness run amok. My questions for debate are:
Should Dave Lenihan have been fired from his job?
What response from his employer(s) would have been appropriate?
Rush Limbaugh had a similar slip of the tongue regarding Mayor Ray Nagin calling him Mayor Ray Nigger/Nagger - clearly Rush was not fired.
This coon/boon was also a slip of the tongue.
No Mr Lenihan should not have been fired. A formal apology to Condi should have been made and a stern, "Don't do that again," should have been issued.
QUOTE(BaphometsAdvocate @ Mar 24 2006, 10:35 AM)
No Mr Lenihan should not have been fired. A formal apology to Condi should have been made and a stern, "Don't do that again," should have been issued.
For the record, all of what you suggest has been done. And the response? According to Leinihan on the insanity of Hannity (radio show), the next morning, he was referenced as the Grand Wizard, a KKK member, and every other opportunistic racist slur they could think of. Of course, nobody had to apologize for that.
QUOTE(DaytonRocker @ Mar 24 2006, 11:57 AM)
QUOTE(BaphometsAdvocate @ Mar 24 2006, 10:35 AM)
No Mr Lenihan should not have been fired. A formal apology to Condi should have been made and a stern, "Don't do that again," should have been issued.
For the record, all of what you suggest has been done. And the response? According to Leinihan on the insanity of Hannity (radio show), the next morning, he was referenced as the Grand Wizard, a KKK member, and every other opportunistic racist slur they could think of. Of course, nobody had to apologize for that.
Well I think we all know there are a lot of sacred cows out there... white guys simply aren't protected.
In the end he'll get another job and no one will care about this. Jesse Jackson called New York Hymie Town and suffered no ills. Perhaps we just don't take words particularly seriously.
QUOTE(nighttimer @ Mar 23 2006, 07:14 PM)
It's too bad people have to lose their jobs over a brain fart, but they got themselves into these messes. Whatever happened to that "personal accountability" jive the conservatives are always wagging their fingers about?
How about the time when Hillary made the comment about Gandhi and the gas station??
What about the time that Jesse Jackson made the comment about NYC being "hymie town"(sp?)????
The funny thing is that Mrs. Clinton wasn't removed from office, and Jesse Jackson wasn't lambasted publicly for making such a comment.
It seems to me that the litmus test for racism is only applied to white men. Losing your job over something like this just shows that the black community has white America running so scared that we're willing to forego logic and sensibility in order to appease a certain demographic.
Frankly, we could even apply this idea to Ray Nagin's comments about NO being a "Chocolate City". It's all fine and dandy as long as your skin isn't a lighter shade of tan...
QUOTE(DaytonRocker @ Mar 24 2006, 10:30 AM)
QUOTE(nighttimer @ Mar 23 2006, 08:14 PM)
A weekend television weatherman was fired after he made an on-air racial slur about Martin Luther King Jr., station officials said.
Rob Blair of KTNV-TV was delivering the extended forecast Saturday morning when he said: "For tomorrow, 60 degrees, Martin Luther Coon King Jr. Day, gonna see some temperatures in the mid-60s."
Rob Blair of KTNV-TV was delivering the extended forecast Saturday morning when he said: "For tomorrow, 60 degrees, Martin Luther Coon King Jr. Day, gonna see some temperatures in the mid-60s."
I don't see how you can even make a comparison of "coon" placed somewhere where it obviously doesn't belong and compare it with Leinihan's comment. Your example isn't even remotely applicable, but if it creates racial tension, I suppose it's close enough for you.
Any "racial tension" here Dayton Rocker is coming from you. The comparison I made was entirely applicable as it illustrates how a media personality misspeaking can happen. I make the comparison because it seems to be White men with Microphones putting their feet firmly in their mouths.
For example, a few weeks ago Bill O' Reilly was interviewing Al Sharpton about remarks made during the funeral of Coretta Scott King. The following exchange included a casual remark by O'Reilly that might not have gone down too well with some folks. See if you can find it.
O'REILLY: Wrong time. Alright. You know you're a stand-up guy for comin' in here. Jesse Jackson wouldn't do it! And we appreciate you comin' on.
SHARPTON: Jesse Jackson would do it. And, if I'm around when you go, I'm gonna talk about talk show hosts with No Spin Zone. I hope the people at your funeral won't be offended.
O'REILLY: Alright. Well, I just - I'm gonna write in my will tonight, when I die, make sure Sharpton's in chains for 24 hours before I'm in the ground. And you get Jesse Jackson on this program. You both come on here!!
SHARPTON (smiling): I could say somethin' about you wantin' me in chains but I'll, I'll let it go. I'll let it go.
O'REILLY: Oh. Alright. I didn't mean THAT. I just meant muzz ...
SHARPTON: Take care.
O'REILLY: ... muzzled.
SHARPTON: Well, you said chains, Bill!
http://www.newshounds.us/2006/02/10/rev_al...ill_oreilly.php
QUOTE
If you ask me, this is the type of response that sets race relations back. You don't even have to do anything to be a racist anymore. Now you're a racist if anything you say could be taken the wrong way.
Congrats nighttimer...you've found another shining example of how racism contines to hold the black man down. Somebody used a word associated with a racial slur and that works for you just fine. In true passive/aggressive behavior, you assume the guy is a racist and should be punished, but only support a suspension. Gee thanks.
What other words are we not allowed to say in conversation when discussing the merits of a black person? Please enlighten us. I want to know what I else I have to do to atone for the actions of anscestors I never even knew.
Congrats nighttimer...you've found another shining example of how racism contines to hold the black man down. Somebody used a word associated with a racial slur and that works for you just fine. In true passive/aggressive behavior, you assume the guy is a racist and should be punished, but only support a suspension. Gee thanks.
What other words are we not allowed to say in conversation when discussing the merits of a black person? Please enlighten us. I want to know what I else I have to do to atone for the actions of anscestors I never even knew.
Well, let me make it reaaaaal easy for you, DR. If you don't like the effect, don't produce the cause. Don't let your mouth outrace your brain. Mama always said, "Think before you speak" and if you think you're going to say something stupid and offensive either you shouldn't say it or be prepared to suffer the slings and arrows when you DO.
Seems to me DR, you're the one whom is assuming racism is involved here. Yeah, I don't have a problem with Leinihan being suspended. I never said he should be fired. If I were his boss, I'd give him a chance to make a apology. But unlike you, I'm not going to sugarcoat the fact that he embarrassed his employers and possibly offended many listeners---both Black and White alike.
What you denounce as a sacrifice to the altar of political correctness gone berserk, is nothing more than a changing of attitudes that you don't like. People are accountable for what they say. A professional radio personality is particularly so.
Whether its Al Campanis, Howard Cosell, Jimmy the Greek or Dave Lenihan, the intention behind your remarks is going to always be secondary when you make them in a setting when they are not off the record. For you, DR, it's not the fact that someone could have been hurt by Lenihan accidently saying "coon." His job is more important than the discomfort he may have created for his listeners and employer. Apparently, the station manager disagreed.
Instead of wasting all that self-righteous outrage on someone who has nothing to do with Lenihan's fate, why don't you break off a e-mail or long distance phone call to the radio station that fired him and let them know how absolutely outraged you are. I'm sure they'd be happy to have your input.
QUOTE(nighttimer @ Mar 24 2006, 10:42 AM)
What you denounce as a sacrifice to the altar of political correctness gone berserk, is nothing more than a changing of attitudes that you don't like. People are accountable for what they say. A professional radio personality is particularly so.
Didn't you mean to say... "People are accountable for what they say, especially if they're white men"????
How come no one asked for the resignation of Hillary Clinton when she said that Gandhi used to run a gas station? Remember, she apologized. Lest we not forget the apology... (*tongue in cheek*). Is racism only an issue when it's directed at black people?
I'm ready to debate....
Why are some debaters so ready to accept the excuse that he said the word coup and the word in together... I am completely surprised that no one has looked at the original quote.
It is obvious that what he said sounded like "coon". Now the question is..., was it a Freudian slip or just bad dialect.
Bikerdad, Aevans, DTOM
I would agree that if he merely said the words together so fast that it sounded like coon nothing should happen, but look at the original quote
She's African-American, which would kind of be a big coon. A big coon.
look at what DTOM found of what he says he meant to say:
an African-American women commissioner would be a coup in the NFL
If what he was trying to say was that an African American Commissioner would be a coup in the NFL.... Well he sure needs to replace quite a few words. This explanation doesn't even fit. If he meant to say "big coup in the NFL" Why doesn't he finish the sentence. Instead he stops at "Coon" then repeats himself... "a big coon".
I think it is more reasonable that this was a Freudian slip... as he said himself... a "slip of the tongue"
Now... so what. He apologized, right?? And I believe it is a sincere apology. But what that slip did is paint a picture.
Here we have a man. He starts the job ending sentence by describing Condi. She is smart, she's qualified, she loves football... and oh yeah.... she's Black(African American)... That was his first mistake...maybe. But when he brought in her race in the next sentence he *slips* and says coon.
Are you all telling me that I am digging to much by thinking the fact that he was talking a Black person and slips with the word "coon" is no mere coincidence. It show in association of the word coon and Black people in his mind, which is why he had the slip. Do you all honestly believe if he was talking about a white woman he would have made the same slip??
We all make slips of the tongue...
One time while working at McDonalds I was joking with a this midget and made some comment where I called her a Midget. I felt horrible, I was instantly sorry and apologized as soon as the words left my mouth. The point is I associated her with the term midget.... because she was a midget in my mind...(and reality)
There have been other slips, but I don't need to try to remember them to make the point.
This guy made a mistake, it was an accident but when he did it it gave people a glimpse of how he sees Black people. I don't know to which degree his mind associates Blacks and the term "coon", but after his slip how could anyone deny there is some association. Maybe he tells jokes with his white friends. Maybe he has a special relationship with a black friend. He calls his friend coon and his friend calls him cracker. I don't know, but I know there is some sort of association. So should he get fired.
Aevans and DTOM
Do you think that if any of the Blacks that served under you were to hear you "accidently" use the term coon when talking about a Black person would continue to hold the same respect for you?? It would spread to every Black that you think of Blacks as coons. Now in this instance this guy is a public orator. He is now compromised. Whether he is racist or just made a huge mistake, he'll be viewed as racist to many.
If his slip dealt with her teeth, or her hairstyle, or her name, but his slip was derogatory toward her race. Which makes it a racist slip
Why are some debaters so ready to accept the excuse that he said the word coup and the word in together... I am completely surprised that no one has looked at the original quote.
It is obvious that what he said sounded like "coon". Now the question is..., was it a Freudian slip or just bad dialect.
Bikerdad, Aevans, DTOM
I would agree that if he merely said the words together so fast that it sounded like coon nothing should happen, but look at the original quote
She's African-American, which would kind of be a big coon. A big coon.
look at what DTOM found of what he says he meant to say:
an African-American women commissioner would be a coup in the NFL
If what he was trying to say was that an African American Commissioner would be a coup in the NFL.... Well he sure needs to replace quite a few words. This explanation doesn't even fit. If he meant to say "big coup in the NFL" Why doesn't he finish the sentence. Instead he stops at "Coon" then repeats himself... "a big coon".
I think it is more reasonable that this was a Freudian slip... as he said himself... a "slip of the tongue"
Now... so what. He apologized, right?? And I believe it is a sincere apology. But what that slip did is paint a picture.
Here we have a man. He starts the job ending sentence by describing Condi. She is smart, she's qualified, she loves football... and oh yeah.... she's Black(African American)... That was his first mistake...maybe. But when he brought in her race in the next sentence he *slips* and says coon.
Are you all telling me that I am digging to much by thinking the fact that he was talking a Black person and slips with the word "coon" is no mere coincidence. It show in association of the word coon and Black people in his mind, which is why he had the slip. Do you all honestly believe if he was talking about a white woman he would have made the same slip??
We all make slips of the tongue...
One time while working at McDonalds I was joking with a this midget and made some comment where I called her a Midget. I felt horrible, I was instantly sorry and apologized as soon as the words left my mouth. The point is I associated her with the term midget.... because she was a midget in my mind...(and reality)
There have been other slips, but I don't need to try to remember them to make the point.
This guy made a mistake, it was an accident but when he did it it gave people a glimpse of how he sees Black people. I don't know to which degree his mind associates Blacks and the term "coon", but after his slip how could anyone deny there is some association. Maybe he tells jokes with his white friends. Maybe he has a special relationship with a black friend. He calls his friend coon and his friend calls him cracker. I don't know, but I know there is some sort of association. So should he get fired.
Aevans and DTOM
Do you think that if any of the Blacks that served under you were to hear you "accidently" use the term coon when talking about a Black person would continue to hold the same respect for you?? It would spread to every Black that you think of Blacks as coons. Now in this instance this guy is a public orator. He is now compromised. Whether he is racist or just made a huge mistake, he'll be viewed as racist to many.
If his slip dealt with her teeth, or her hairstyle, or her name, but his slip was derogatory toward her race. Which makes it a racist slip
Droop, part of the problem is this; I'm not going by the original quote, I'm going by the audio transcript. Have you heard it?
When Leinihan spoke, there is an obvious inflection in his voice when he said 'A big coon'. It was said in such a manner that he caught it right after he said it, and immediately realized what it sounded like.
I give my soldiers the benefit of the doubt, that if I said 'coup in' and it sounded like 'coon', they would know that I simply I spoke quickly enough that the two words blended together.
Unfortunately the only example that springs to mind that perfectly illustrates this incident involves a male first and last name, that when said together quickly sounds exactly like a part of the female anatomy. But my point remains the same. If you are going to attempt to read into a persons mind, at least listen to what he said and the cadence of voice used.
When Leinihan spoke, there is an obvious inflection in his voice when he said 'A big coon'. It was said in such a manner that he caught it right after he said it, and immediately realized what it sounded like.
QUOTE(droop224 Today @ 02:04 PM )
Do you think that if any of the Blacks that served under you were to hear you "accidently" use the term coon when talking about a Black person would continue to hold the same respect for you??
I give my soldiers the benefit of the doubt, that if I said 'coup in' and it sounded like 'coon', they would know that I simply I spoke quickly enough that the two words blended together.
Unfortunately the only example that springs to mind that perfectly illustrates this incident involves a male first and last name, that when said together quickly sounds exactly like a part of the female anatomy. But my point remains the same. If you are going to attempt to read into a persons mind, at least listen to what he said and the cadence of voice used.
QUOTE(droop224 @ Mar 24 2006, 02:04 PM)
If his slip dealt with her teeth, or her hairstyle, or her name, but his slip was derogatory toward her race. Which makes it a racist slip
I'll be glad to ask for his resignation when we begin to hold everyone to the same standard across the board.
If Ray Nagin can say that New Orleans should be "Chocolate", if Hillary Clinton can say that Gandhi is a gas station employee, and if Jesse Jackson can call jews Hymies... why is calling Condi a "coon" accidentally any worse?? Frankly, at least we knew that Hillary meant to call Gandhi a gas station worker...
I've made this same point more than once.... why doesn't anyone address it?? Let's ask for Ray Nagin and Hillary Clinton to resign... then this guy should hit the bricks too.
Shouldn't this actually qualify as freedom of expression? The host infact has apologized for his actions and said it was slip of tongue but considereing even if he meant it does it really matter, when freedom of speech is of utmost importance even if it hurts someone.
I'll "expect" that he will get the job back pretty soon, get a few awards for bold journalism and and ofcourse the whole west will rally behind him to protect their freedom of speech. (talking about freedom of speech the southpark episode making fun of scientology has been taken off air??? and the one making fun of Virgin Mary has been taken off in UK, New zealand.....)
I'll "expect" that he will get the job back pretty soon, get a few awards for bold journalism and and ofcourse the whole west will rally behind him to protect their freedom of speech. (talking about freedom of speech the southpark episode making fun of scientology has been taken off air??? and the one making fun of Virgin Mary has been taken off in UK, New zealand.....)
DTOM
I haven't. Do you have a link... I'll do some searching later for it, but if you already know where I'll listen to it.
I think they would as well. But I'm not so sure from the transcripts that this is what was done. Like I said running two words together is totally different from a slip of the tongue.
But since you heard it why didn't he correct himself immediately the second time around rather than repeating himself?? Why not "a big coon... excuse me, a big coup in the NFL" Instead what we have is some after the fact reason of what he meant to say.
I guess the bottom line to me is
If it was a slip, I'd fire him, if he just ran two words together I'd let him stay.
You really like to live in a vacuum devoid of history, culture, and context.
What would Jesse resign from??
What negative racial history exists between whites and Indians??
Was Ray Nagin using slang found among many contempory Blacks?? Did you know many Blacks call D.C. "Chocolate City"
Put things in perspective Aevans and it may make since why there is so little fallout in the cases you mention.
QUOTE
Droop, part of the problem is this; I'm not going by the original quote, I'm going by the audio transcript. Have you heard it?
I haven't. Do you have a link... I'll do some searching later for it, but if you already know where I'll listen to it.
QUOTE
I give my soldiers the benefit of the doubt, that if I said 'coup in' and it sounded like 'coon', they would know that I simply I spoke quickly enough that the two words blended together.
I think they would as well. But I'm not so sure from the transcripts that this is what was done. Like I said running two words together is totally different from a slip of the tongue.
But since you heard it why didn't he correct himself immediately the second time around rather than repeating himself?? Why not "a big coon... excuse me, a big coup in the NFL" Instead what we have is some after the fact reason of what he meant to say.
I guess the bottom line to me is
If it was a slip, I'd fire him, if he just ran two words together I'd let him stay.
QUOTE
If Ray Nagin can say that New Orleans should be "Chocolate", if Hillary Clinton can say that Gandhi is a gas station employee, and if Jesse Jackson can call jews Hymies... why is calling Condi a "coon" accidentally any worse?? Frankly, at least we knew that Hillary meant to call Gandhi a gas station worker...
You really like to live in a vacuum devoid of history, culture, and context.
What would Jesse resign from??
What negative racial history exists between whites and Indians??
Was Ray Nagin using slang found among many contempory Blacks?? Did you know many Blacks call D.C. "Chocolate City"
Put things in perspective Aevans and it may make since why there is so little fallout in the cases you mention.
QUOTE(droop224 @ Mar 24 2006, 03:51 PM)
You really like to live in a vacuum devoid of history, culture, and context.
What would Jesse resign from??
What negative racial history exists between whites and Indians??
Was Ray Nagin using slang found among many contempory Blacks?? Did you know many Blacks call D.C. "Chocolate City"
Put things in perspective Aevans and it may make since why there is so little fallout in the cases you mention.
What would Jesse resign from??
What negative racial history exists between whites and Indians??
Was Ray Nagin using slang found among many contempory Blacks?? Did you know many Blacks call D.C. "Chocolate City"
Put things in perspective Aevans and it may make since why there is so little fallout in the cases you mention.
You really believe that answering legitimate statements with insulting remarks makes your case.
It's not about perspective, it's about the fact that if I were to call Dallas the "tan city", or "little Mexico", etc... there might be a HUGE outpouring of disgust. Of course, if a hispanic man said it, it's just fine? What if I said that Cesar Chavez should've been mowing my lawn???...
What does the fact that many blacks call DC the chocolate city (which I actually have never heard, even though I've been a number of times) have to do with my point? Frankly, your post has no counterpoint in reference to the notion that only Ray Nagin and Hillary Clinton could be asked to resign.
How do you think it makes white people feel to say that New Orleans should be "Chocolate"? Why can't it just be New Orleans? How do you think middle-eastern people feel about Hillary Clinton's comments about Gandhi?
The point is that if a white-male senator made such a comment, he'd be crucified on a national scale. A man has a slip of the tongue on the radio... whammo--> it's time for him to find a new job...
QUOTE(aevans176 @ Mar 24 2006, 02:58 PM)
QUOTE(nighttimer @ Mar 24 2006, 10:42 AM)
What you denounce as a sacrifice to the altar of political correctness gone berserk, is nothing more than a changing of attitudes that you don't like. People are accountable for what they say. A professional radio personality is particularly so.
Didn't you mean to say... "People are accountable for what they say, especially if they're white men"????
No. I meant exactly what I said. Any distortions or misinterpretations are yours and yours alone, aevans176. I'd like to say I'm sorry, but I'm not really if it is primarily White men who feel put upon by the firing of Mr. Lenihan.
I guess you think that by bringing up Hillary Clinton's remarks that means two wrongs make a right? No. It just means Senator Clinton's mouth disengaged from her brain same as Mr. Lenihan. Now if you can only convince the majority of voters in New York to fire her, you might be getting somewhere, aevans176.
But it has been fascinating to observe how people can rationalize a racial slur by saying, "Oh, he didn't mean it." Sorry, but you can't unring the bell. Lenihan still said it, got axed for it and that's the end of it.
By this time next week the Outrage Parade will have moved on to something newer and fresher.
What is the point of having a discussion that involves black people? If the result is punishment if you don't discuss it perfectly, why even bother?
If I were in a radio host's shoes, I'd avoid topics avoiding race. Period.
Making my wife and kids suffer because of a verbal miscue just doesn't make it worth it. Whites have the burden of having a perfect discussion when involving blacks - even if it's praising them. Blacks can be as racist as they want without consequence. That has proven to be a fact with this debacle.
Avoid discussions about blacks to minimize the risks associated with it. Seems simple enough to me.
If I were in a radio host's shoes, I'd avoid topics avoiding race. Period.
Making my wife and kids suffer because of a verbal miscue just doesn't make it worth it. Whites have the burden of having a perfect discussion when involving blacks - even if it's praising them. Blacks can be as racist as they want without consequence. That has proven to be a fact with this debacle.
Avoid discussions about blacks to minimize the risks associated with it. Seems simple enough to me.
QUOTE(DaytonRocker @ Mar 24 2006, 07:11 PM)
What is the point of having a discussion that involves black people? If the result is punishment if you don't discuss it perfectly, why even bother?
If I were in a radio host's shoes, I'd avoid topics avoiding race. Period.
Blacks can be as racist as they want without consequence. That has proven to be a fact with this debacle.
Avoid discussions about blacks to minimize the risks associated with it. Seems simple enough to me.
If I were in a radio host's shoes, I'd avoid topics avoiding race. Period.
Blacks can be as racist as they want without consequence. That has proven to be a fact with this debacle.
Avoid discussions about blacks to minimize the risks associated with it. Seems simple enough to me.
If that's your attitude, Dayton Rocker, you'd probably be well served to avoid discussions about Blacks if you feel inadequately prepared to discuss the matter. However, I'm willing to wager that there are---oh, literally thousands of radio hosts who do discuss matters involving Black people. They probably even manage to do so without saying "coon."
You're having a pity party for Dave Lenihan not because he used a racial epithet. That's okay by you. You just don't think he should have suffered any sanction for it.
Well, so sorry to be the one to tell you, but you can't get around the fact that his employer was perfectly within their rights to take him off the air, suspend him or fire him if that was their wish. You can put the blame on reverse-racism if it makes you feel better about it.
People have honest, open, candid and raw discussions on race, all the time. Nobody here has suggested Lenihan should be crucified for a slip of the tongue, but you've laid the blame on everything and anything except where it belongs: on his own actions. The punishment was disproportionate to the crime, but that's the way it goes when somebody else is writing the checks.
"Blacks can be as racist as they want without consequence." Oh, really? So, if I were to refer to you or Aevans176 or Dontreadonme with a racially-tinged disparaging slur, I wouldn't be issued a strike or an outright banning by a Moderator?
Though it's tempting to put your claim to the test, I've got a little more sense than to actually try it. It isn't necessary for me to stoop to racial slurs to get my point across. Speaking forthrightly to Whites about matters regarding race has never been an area where I've had any trouble. It's their own fault if they have to choke back their true feelings and can't engage in a dialogue.
Then again, finding fault with White males or pointing out they no longer have carte blanche to indulge in irresponsible racial, gender or sexual orientation speech seems to be a reality some are finding difficult to grasp.
I remember “coon” being a popular derogatory term for black people when I was in high school. I graduated in 1961 and can’t remember hearing this epithet used in this context in the past 45 years.
There are two possibilities here: 1. This was a Freudian slip on Lenihan’s part that expressed deep hatred for blacks. 2. Lenahan ran two sounds together an said “coon” when he meant to say “coup.” I don’t know which was the case. Not knowing, I would be inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt.
aevans176
Why the proclivity to turn the question in another direction instead of meeting the question for debate head on? Is it necessary to use a thread on one subject to vent your anger and frustration on another?
In the past, you have employed this "technique" this with Ted Kennedy, the entire Kennedy family and Bill Clinton.
Recently you did the same thing with the ACLU.
http://www.americasdebate.com/forums/index...316&qpid=184425
Now it’s Ray Nagin and Hillary Clinton. Why don’t you find a way to express your frustration on the subject at hand instead of wandering out of the ballpark and into the parkikng lot?
BTW: Professional baseball needs Condi for commissioner more than pro football. Bud Seelig's needs desperately to move on, whether by choice or chance.
There are two possibilities here: 1. This was a Freudian slip on Lenihan’s part that expressed deep hatred for blacks. 2. Lenahan ran two sounds together an said “coon” when he meant to say “coup.” I don’t know which was the case. Not knowing, I would be inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt.
QUOTE(aevans176 @ Mar 24 2006, 05:03 PM)
What does the fact that many blacks call DC the chocolate city (which I actually have never heard, even though I've been a number of times) have to do with my point? Frankly, your post has no counterpoint in reference to the notion that only Ray Nagin and Hillary Clinton could be asked to resign.
How do you think it makes white people feel to say that New Orleans should be "Chocolate"? Why can't it just be New Orleans? How do you think middle-eastern people feel about Hillary Clinton's comments about Gandhi?
How do you think it makes white people feel to say that New Orleans should be "Chocolate"? Why can't it just be New Orleans? How do you think middle-eastern people feel about Hillary Clinton's comments about Gandhi?
aevans176
Why the proclivity to turn the question in another direction instead of meeting the question for debate head on? Is it necessary to use a thread on one subject to vent your anger and frustration on another?
In the past, you have employed this "technique"
this with Ted Kennedy, the entire Kennedy family and Bill Clinton. Recently you did the same thing with the ACLU.
http://www.americasdebate.com/forums/index...316&qpid=184425
Now it’s Ray Nagin and Hillary Clinton. Why don’t you find a way to express your frustration on the subject at hand instead of wandering out of the ballpark and into the parkikng lot?
BTW: Professional baseball needs Condi for commissioner more than pro football. Bud Seelig's needs desperately to move on, whether by choice or chance.
QUOTE(nighttimer @ Mar 23 2006, 07:52 PM)
"Political correctness?" Yeah, cry me a river. Why is it when somebody uses an obvious racial slur and gets called on it, it's the consequences and not the action that come in for criticism?
Gee, maybe it might have something to do with the fact that anybody with half a brain could see that the "slur" was totally unintentional.
QUOTE
The guy is supposed to be a professional. If he can't pronounce "coup" instead of "coon" then he's too incompetent to do his job correctly.
Sorry, Dontreadonme, but I'm not getting "coon" out of saying "coup" quickly. Nice attempt though at rationalizing Leinihan's malaprop. If Lenihan's mouth is faster than his brain, he deserves to get whacked out of his job until he learns to articulate clearly and distinctly.
Sorry, Dontreadonme, but I'm not getting "coon" out of saying "coup" quickly. Nice attempt though at rationalizing Leinihan's malaprop. If Lenihan's mouth is faster than his brain, he deserves to get whacked out of his job until he learns to articulate clearly and distinctly.
That's an impossibly unrealistic standard, just so you know. The best speakers in the country will occasionally slip up once in a while. There's no such thing as absolute perfection in speech.
The really ironic thing here is if he hadn't called attention to his own slip-up by apologizing as profusely as he did, nobody probably would have noticed. Count me among those who get upset at the double-standard that gets applied to remarks like "Hymietown", but if Jesse Jackson had said it in such a way that clearly was a slip of the tongue, and immediately corrected himself and apologized for it sincerely, I'd have given him a pass on that as well. A "slur" simply is not a slur when it's not done intentionally.
The thing is you don't have slips like this if you don't normally use the word. That is like if I was talking about Coke and said the word pop or soda pop. Down here where I live we always use the word coke to describe a carbonated drink. I don't use the word pop so it would never come out of my mouth. For a word like coon to just slip, for me it would have to mean he is used to using to word.
Just my take...
It's the same way when Lt. Governor Cruz Bustamante said the 'N-Word' instead of negro in a speech he was giving. To me it implies Cruz Bustamante uses the word in his own vocabulary and it happened to slip at an unfortunate time. Funny though I don't remember anyone being up in arms wanting him to resign.
I think this radio host got what he reserved.
Just my take...
It's the same way when Lt. Governor Cruz Bustamante said the 'N-Word' instead of negro in a speech he was giving. To me it implies Cruz Bustamante uses the word in his own vocabulary and it happened to slip at an unfortunate time. Funny though I don't remember anyone being up in arms wanting him to resign.
I think this radio host got what he reserved.
Sleeper, I don't think you read over the entire thread. I direct your attention to #5 specfically:
It's good to know the facts before forming a judgment.
QUOTE
Driving home from work, I heard him being interviewed and taking callers questions on the Larry Elder show. He explained that what he meant to say was that an African-American women commissioner would be a coup in the NFL, and by the cadence of his voice, merged coup/in. Say it quickly and you will say 'coon' too.
It's good to know the facts before forming a judgment.
Should Dave Lenihan have been fired from his job?
This must have happened in a right-to-work state where employers can fire anybody for any reason or none whatsoever.
Should he have been fired? It's a moot question.
What response from his employer(s) would have been appropriate?
Who knows what those people were thinking. It's all speculation, but I'll go with they were afraid of bad publicity, same with the school.
My personal response is 1) poor word choice 2) talking too fast 3) sloppy recovery, ergo, incompetance at the mic. Remedial training might have been more appropriate, make him talk with marbles in his mouth for a while. Diction people, Diction!
Regarding any display of actual racism, no, just the opposite. The guy wanted to see Rice in a commish job. It would be a coup! A big coup I tells yah. See how easy that was?
I don't see where real racism was displayed. The lesson here is that we are all walking on egg shells while employed. One little slip, and whamo! Bye bye job(s). Or maybe the boss is just having a bad day.
This must have happened in a right-to-work state where employers can fire anybody for any reason or none whatsoever.
Should he have been fired? It's a moot question.
What response from his employer(s) would have been appropriate?
Who knows what those people were thinking. It's all speculation, but I'll go with they were afraid of bad publicity, same with the school.
My personal response is 1) poor word choice 2) talking too fast 3) sloppy recovery, ergo, incompetance at the mic. Remedial training might have been more appropriate, make him talk with marbles in his mouth for a while. Diction people, Diction!
Regarding any display of actual racism, no, just the opposite. The guy wanted to see Rice in a commish job. It would be a coup! A big coup I tells yah. See how easy that was?
I don't see where real racism was displayed. The lesson here is that we are all walking on egg shells while employed. One little slip, and whamo! Bye bye job(s). Or maybe the boss is just having a bad day.
Should Dave Lenihan have been fired from his job?
What response from his employer(s) would have been appropriate?
I'm 100% with Nigthtimer on this, not for the first time on matters of race (or lots of other things).
Personally I would have settled for suspension and an on-air apology, though I think that a commercial radio station would be within their rights to fire a presenter for doing anything that might possibly impact on advertising revenue.
If he'd said a curse-word on the air, most of the conservatives loudly complaining that Lenihan's been harshly treated - among whose number Lenihan himself doesn't appear to be at the moment - they'd have been the first to demand his pink slip. More on that later.
But slips of the tongue, especially Freudian ones, usually indicate what someone subconsciously thinks. A man might conceivably blurt out something that rhymes with "rice bits" when he sees an attractive woman in a low-cut top giving a business presentation when he really means to say "nice presentation".
It doesn't automaticallty make him a sexist pig who deserves to be emasculated, any more than Lenihan's verbal glitch automatically makes him a cloak-wearing cross-burner. And neither case precludes the worst case, either.
BUT, the woman giving the presentation would be within her rights to take offence, and also to break off any commercial relationship (providing the temrs of any contract allow her to) she might have with the tongue-tied fellow in favour of someone with more composure. Since the terms of almost every employer-employee relationship in the US allow people to be fired for no reason at all, and even in more rigidly contractual Europe, to be fired for the catch-all of "gross misconduct", Lenihan doesn't really have a leg to stand on.
It isn't political correctness gone mad to say that. I think PC these days is just another way of describing politeness. There's no law that requires it - everyone has the right to be rude, intentionally or not. And everyone else has the right to react as they see fit (within the law).
What made me think was the 'he meant to say "coup in"' argument?
Firstly, only he knows what he meant to say - his on air reaction only tells us what he didn't mean to say, which is just what he did say.
And secondly, is there some kind of attempt to establish "coon" as a "friendly" racial term the same way that "butt" or "melons" are "friendly" sexual terms going on here? Why do we NEED any formal or informal terms for black people and/or Afro-Americans beyond those two?
Lastly, if he'd been trying to say that Rice's was a "bigger victory" than such-and such and had made a slip of the tongue by transposing an "n" for the "b" would that have been better, or worse? Easier or harder to rationalise away as a harmless word fumble? From whose point of view?
Um, I don't know.
Indifferent?
That it doesn't really apply to them, since Gandhi was a Indian Hindu and not an Muslim Arab, Persian, Kurd, Afghan etc. who make up most people in the Middle East?
But heck, they're all brown, so what difference does it make, right?
Even a Pakistani or Bangladeshi Muslim immigrant into America who works in or owns a gas station probably wouldn't recognise themselves in a comment about "Gandhi", which just shows that Senator Cliniton is ignorant as well as (arguably) offensive...
America really should look at a map someday (this one is quite good, and it's American) and realise exactly where India (and Pakistan, Nepal and Bangladesh) are relative to everywhere else. Doesn't having a land border with China kind of qualify a country as being in the "East" and not just the "Middle East"? And hasn't "Middle East" gone from being geographically quite specific to being another way of saying "Israel and the Arab world" anyway?
What response from his employer(s) would have been appropriate?
I'm 100% with Nigthtimer on this, not for the first time on matters of race (or lots of other things).
Personally I would have settled for suspension and an on-air apology, though I think that a commercial radio station would be within their rights to fire a presenter for doing anything that might possibly impact on advertising revenue.
If he'd said a curse-word on the air, most of the conservatives loudly complaining that Lenihan's been harshly treated - among whose number Lenihan himself doesn't appear to be at the moment - they'd have been the first to demand his pink slip. More on that later.
But slips of the tongue, especially Freudian ones, usually indicate what someone subconsciously thinks. A man might conceivably blurt out something that rhymes with "rice bits" when he sees an attractive woman in a low-cut top giving a business presentation when he really means to say "nice presentation".
It doesn't automaticallty make him a sexist pig who deserves to be emasculated, any more than Lenihan's verbal glitch automatically makes him a cloak-wearing cross-burner. And neither case precludes the worst case, either.
BUT, the woman giving the presentation would be within her rights to take offence, and also to break off any commercial relationship (providing the temrs of any contract allow her to) she might have with the tongue-tied fellow in favour of someone with more composure. Since the terms of almost every employer-employee relationship in the US allow people to be fired for no reason at all, and even in more rigidly contractual Europe, to be fired for the catch-all of "gross misconduct", Lenihan doesn't really have a leg to stand on.
It isn't political correctness gone mad to say that. I think PC these days is just another way of describing politeness. There's no law that requires it - everyone has the right to be rude, intentionally or not. And everyone else has the right to react as they see fit (within the law).
What made me think was the 'he meant to say "coup in"' argument?
Firstly, only he knows what he meant to say - his on air reaction only tells us what he didn't mean to say, which is just what he did say.
And secondly, is there some kind of attempt to establish "coon" as a "friendly" racial term the same way that "butt" or "melons" are "friendly" sexual terms going on here? Why do we NEED any formal or informal terms for black people and/or Afro-Americans beyond those two?
Lastly, if he'd been trying to say that Rice's was a "bigger victory" than such-and such and had made a slip of the tongue by transposing an "n" for the "b" would that have been better, or worse? Easier or harder to rationalise away as a harmless word fumble? From whose point of view?
QUOTE(aevans176 @ Mar 24 2006, 11:03 PM)
How do you think middle-eastern people feel about Hillary Clinton's comments about Gandhi?
Um, I don't know.
Indifferent?
That it doesn't really apply to them, since Gandhi was a Indian Hindu and not an Muslim Arab, Persian, Kurd, Afghan etc. who make up most people in the Middle East?
But heck, they're all brown, so what difference does it make, right?
Even a Pakistani or Bangladeshi Muslim immigrant into America who works in or owns a gas station probably wouldn't recognise themselves in a comment about "Gandhi", which just shows that Senator Cliniton is ignorant as well as (arguably) offensive...
America really should look at a map someday (this one is quite good, and it's American) and realise exactly where India (and Pakistan, Nepal and Bangladesh) are relative to everywhere else. Doesn't having a land border with China kind of qualify a country as being in the "East" and not just the "Middle East"? And hasn't "Middle East" gone from being geographically quite specific to being another way of saying "Israel and the Arab world" anyway?
QUOTE(aevans176 @ Mar 24 2006, 11:29 AM)
How about the time when Hillary made the comment about Gandhi and the gas station??
What about the time that Jesse Jackson made the comment about NYC being "hymie town"(sp?)????
The funny thing is that Mrs. Clinton wasn't removed from office, and Jesse Jackson wasn't lambasted publicly for making such a comment.
What about the time that Jesse Jackson made the comment about NYC being "hymie town"(sp?)????
The funny thing is that Mrs. Clinton wasn't removed from office, and Jesse Jackson wasn't lambasted publicly for making such a comment.
You are speaking of two different issues. If Hillary or Jesse Jackson were working for a media outlet, and they violated policy with their speech, they likely would receive some disciplinary action. If it bothers enough voters, they won't reelect Hillary, as they are the ones she is accountable to. In this case, it's the employer's decision to make. I think in this case it sounds a bit excessive, but...
Nightimer mentioned something I believe is very pertinent regarding the forum rules if people misspeak and use racial epithets here. It's up to the interpretation of the staff, depending on the intention, which can only be ascertained via the history of the posting individual to the case. So, a person who is often trying to skirt the rules, or is generally inflammatory, will receive a stiffer penalty than one who has a good history with few minor infractions. After a person has been posting for a while, it is easy to judge whether the slip was intentional or not. The penalties for such an infraction might range anywhere from outright banning to simply staff editting. Gray Seal said that this person likely has a history of pushing the line, and that could be sufficient reason, IMO, for dismissal. For all we know, this slip might have been the final straw.
Should Dave Lenihan have been fired from his job?
Should he have been fired? I can only say that I wouldn't necessarily fire him. It appears from the quote that he had both coup and boon in his head and they both came out of his mouth jumbled together.
What response from his employer(s) would have been appropriate?
Their choice to fire him was not inappropriate. They were well within their rights to fire him.
Should he have been fired? I can only say that I wouldn't necessarily fire him. It appears from the quote that he had both coup and boon in his head and they both came out of his mouth jumbled together.
What response from his employer(s) would have been appropriate?
Their choice to fire him was not inappropriate. They were well within their rights to fire him.
I am usually among the first to read nascent racism into, well... just about everything. But in this case, having heard the segment and having seen Lenihan interviewed since, I think it was simply an unfortunate slip of the tongue. Lenihan realized what he'd said immediately and apologized profusely on the spot. I expect that, had he not been fired, this would not have been a story at all.
Should Dave Lenihan have been fired from his job?
On the basis of what I know about the case, I wouldn't have fired him. If there are other facts - such as Lenihan having a history of making borderline racist remarks (which I've certainly heard nothing about) - it would be a different story. Frankly, I think his on-air apology at the time was enough - though I 'd have no problem with the station demanding a further apology had the story had any legs (which, without the termination, I doubt it would have had).
What response from his employer(s) would have been appropriate?
Depending on the state's labor laws, it is up the employer to determine what would have been appropriate - up to and including dismissal. It's not what I would have done, but it's their right to determine what was appropriate.
Should Dave Lenihan have been fired from his job?
On the basis of what I know about the case, I wouldn't have fired him. If there are other facts - such as Lenihan having a history of making borderline racist remarks (which I've certainly heard nothing about) - it would be a different story. Frankly, I think his on-air apology at the time was enough - though I 'd have no problem with the station demanding a further apology had the story had any legs (which, without the termination, I doubt it would have had).
What response from his employer(s) would have been appropriate?
Depending on the state's labor laws, it is up the employer to determine what would have been appropriate - up to and including dismissal. It's not what I would have done, but it's their right to determine what was appropriate.
QUOTE(BoF @ Mar 24 2006, 09:26 PM)
Why the proclivity to turn the question in another direction instead of meeting the question for debate head on? Is it necessary to use a thread on one subject to vent your anger and frustration on another?
I hate to make an easily understood point, that seemingly no one else found difficult to understand, but I used Ray Nagin and Hillary Clinton as examples of where the public didn't become outraged about statements that were as racially charged as the one in question. It has nothing to do with other threads, but moreover examples pertinent to this subject at hand.
The easily understood notion, is that the black community is not empathetic in any shape or form, and most agree with the firing of this man. Just listen to popular radio shows like Steve Harvey or Ricky Smiley here in Dallas.
Frankly, the bothersome point is that no one ever even mentioned that Ray Nagin or Hillary Clinton should step down. No one is even still upset... even though their statements were just as racist... then again, I suppose I could make this point until I'm blue in the face.
I see it as a no-brainer... it's because this was a white-man... had a black woman called another black woman a "coon" on the radio, would anyone care???
I think that I would join with the group that considers this to be a case of PC overload.
There are several thousands examples of terms that could be considered racist if taken in that regard and that means that would be an example of self-censorship. As has been pointed out that even when terms are used within their proper and non-racist context that some individuals can take them wrong. Such as the use of the term 'niggardly'.
Near where I live there is a street named "Coon Club Road". The first time I went by it, I was thinking, "well you sure ain't in California anymore". It appears to refer to a hunting club that has nothing to do with race, but that I can not prove. It also appears to cause no controversy either. I guess I am just glad that my house is not on that street since I don't think that I could bring myself to have that on my address for any reason.
There are several thousands examples of terms that could be considered racist if taken in that regard and that means that would be an example of self-censorship. As has been pointed out that even when terms are used within their proper and non-racist context that some individuals can take them wrong. Such as the use of the term 'niggardly'.
Near where I live there is a street named "Coon Club Road". The first time I went by it, I was thinking, "well you sure ain't in California anymore". It appears to refer to a hunting club that has nothing to do with race, but that I can not prove. It also appears to cause no controversy either. I guess I am just glad that my house is not on that street since I don't think that I could bring myself to have that on my address for any reason.
When I was in school, once I was doing a presentation on Domestic Abuse in United States. There was a phrase in my report, something like "on average, every 5 minutes a woman gets battered in America". Unfortunately, during the presentation I misspoke and I read "every 5 minutes a woman gets buttered in America".
Amid the chuckle in the auditorium, I didn't realize at the time how close I was to dismissal.
A man misspoke. He apologized profusely. It's obvious that he didn't mean to say the word, he immediately corrected himself. While his employer certainly within his rights to terminate the employment, this story got legs only because the response from the employer seems excessive.
Amid the chuckle in the auditorium, I didn't realize at the time how close I was to dismissal.
A man misspoke. He apologized profusely. It's obvious that he didn't mean to say the word, he immediately corrected himself. While his employer certainly within his rights to terminate the employment, this story got legs only because the response from the employer seems excessive.
Aevans
Fine ... let's talk about Hilary.
Before she said how great and accomplished she thought Ghandi, she made a joke about him working at the Gas station. An obvious play off of a stereotype that Indians run gas stations and 7-elevens. I believe that the humor was lame and that it was disparaging, but how was it disparaging to Indians as a race?? Are Indians usually called Ghandi as a racially derogatory term?? I never heard about that.
Maybe you'd have a point if Hilary accidently called Ghandi a "Towel head" That's what I meant earlier when I said "perspective", it wasn't meant to be an insult.
Let's talk about Ray Nagin
Are we to believe that we live in a vacuum. Let me guess when a White person says the N-word, it's just as racist as when a Black person uses the N-word?? Do I have it right??
Ray Nagin says he want the city of New Orleans to be Chocolate. Which was stupid, because some people, like yourself, don't have a clue what it means. So here you are on AD calling it a racist remark... without a clue.
I myself call D.C. "Chocolate city". If you would like the history of the term let me know, I'll PM you a link. Point is: You don't know this, maybe neither do many other white people, but chances are that Ray Nagin does. You see, it is not a derogatory term.
So how do other face feel. They may feel left out. And that is exactly why Ray Nagin was wrong for saying it, because it made others feel excluded. But let's remember that New Orlean was 67 percent African American, prior to Katrina. Don't you think it is more likely that Ray Nagin is saying he wants the Demographic to be the same, if not similar, to what it was prior to the Katrina?
Again he went about wrong but he didn't make slur to any other race... so his comment falls short of Racist.
The reason why most people are ignoring your "points" is because they are not just as racist.
Towel head, Sand Nigger, Honky, Nigger, Porch Monkey, Wet Back, Coon...etc. These are racially derogatory terms. They are meant to be derogatory towards race when used. Your whole argument is that everything is the same... like there are no degrees of racism.
This guy makes a comment when talking about a Black Woman and slips up and interjects a term like "coon". Your closest comment that you found was the one Jesse Jackson made, but as I already posted, I didn't know what he was to resign from.
You bring up a lot of inappropriate comments that touch on race... and then call it racist. I say again to you, perspective.
The reason you find so much "one way racism" is because of the nature of racism in this country. We don't have a history of Whitess enslaved by Blacks in this country. We don't have a history of Blacks spraying Whites with water hoses. You see the history of Racism is this country is one way. We have one race that holds major power and sway in this country... so inevitably sensitivities are going to be greater toward racist American whites due to the fact they have greater power to do greater damage and because they have a greater history of abuse.
Blackstone
Don't you think you should take your own advice? Just because he says this is what was what he meant to say, doesn't mean it is true. Like I said earlier if this was what he meant to say there are a lot more words that need to be replaced and reordered.
DTOM believes this is what happen, and maybe it did, but I think it was more of what Sleeper claims. I say this due to the fact that though there was an immediate apology it wasn't followed by an immediate clarification, which makes me believe the clarification came after the fact. But don't presume his excuse for why he did it is a fact that shows it was not a slip of the tongue.
QUOTE
I hate to make an easily understood point, that seemingly no one else found difficult to understand, but I used Ray Nagin and Hillary Clinton as examples of where the public didn't become outraged about statements that were as racially charged as the one in question. It has nothing to do with other threads, but moreover examples pertinent to this subject at hand.
The easily understood notion, is that the black community is not empathetic in any shape or form, and most agree with the firing of this man. Just listen to popular radio shows like Steve Harvey or Ricky Smiley here in Dallas.
The easily understood notion, is that the black community is not empathetic in any shape or form, and most agree with the firing of this man. Just listen to popular radio shows like Steve Harvey or Ricky Smiley here in Dallas.
Fine ... let's talk about Hilary.
Before she said how great and accomplished she thought Ghandi, she made a joke about him working at the Gas station. An obvious play off of a stereotype that Indians run gas stations and 7-elevens. I believe that the humor was lame and that it was disparaging, but how was it disparaging to Indians as a race?? Are Indians usually called Ghandi as a racially derogatory term?? I never heard about that.
Maybe you'd have a point if Hilary accidently called Ghandi a "Towel head" That's what I meant earlier when I said "perspective", it wasn't meant to be an insult.
Let's talk about Ray Nagin
Are we to believe that we live in a vacuum. Let me guess when a White person says the N-word, it's just as racist as when a Black person uses the N-word?? Do I have it right??
Ray Nagin says he want the city of New Orleans to be Chocolate. Which was stupid, because some people, like yourself, don't have a clue what it means. So here you are on AD calling it a racist remark... without a clue.
I myself call D.C. "Chocolate city". If you would like the history of the term let me know, I'll PM you a link. Point is: You don't know this, maybe neither do many other white people, but chances are that Ray Nagin does. You see, it is not a derogatory term.
So how do other face feel. They may feel left out. And that is exactly why Ray Nagin was wrong for saying it, because it made others feel excluded. But let's remember that New Orlean was 67 percent African American, prior to Katrina. Don't you think it is more likely that Ray Nagin is saying he wants the Demographic to be the same, if not similar, to what it was prior to the Katrina?
Again he went about wrong but he didn't make slur to any other race... so his comment falls short of Racist.
QUOTE
Frankly, the bothersome point is that no one ever even mentioned that Ray Nagin or Hillary Clinton should step down. No one is even still upset... even though their statements were just as racist... then again, I suppose I could make this point until I'm blue in the face.
The reason why most people are ignoring your "points" is because they are not just as racist.
Towel head, Sand Nigger, Honky, Nigger, Porch Monkey, Wet Back, Coon...etc. These are racially derogatory terms. They are meant to be derogatory towards race when used. Your whole argument is that everything is the same... like there are no degrees of racism.
This guy makes a comment when talking about a Black Woman and slips up and interjects a term like "coon". Your closest comment that you found was the one Jesse Jackson made, but as I already posted, I didn't know what he was to resign from.
You bring up a lot of inappropriate comments that touch on race... and then call it racist. I say again to you, perspective.
The reason you find so much "one way racism" is because of the nature of racism in this country. We don't have a history of Whitess enslaved by Blacks in this country. We don't have a history of Blacks spraying Whites with water hoses. You see the history of Racism is this country is one way. We have one race that holds major power and sway in this country... so inevitably sensitivities are going to be greater toward racist American whites due to the fact they have greater power to do greater damage and because they have a greater history of abuse.
Blackstone
QUOTE
Sleeper, I don't think you read over the entire thread. I direct your attention to #5 specfically:
It's good to know the facts before forming a judgment.
QUOTE
QUOTE
Driving home from work, I heard him being interviewed and taking callers questions on the Larry Elder show. He explained that what he meant to say was that an African-American women commissioner would be a coup in the NFL, and by the cadence of his voice, merged coup/in. Say it quickly and you will say 'coon' too.
Driving home from work, I heard him being interviewed and taking callers questions on the Larry Elder show. He explained that what he meant to say was that an African-American women commissioner would be a coup in the NFL, and by the cadence of his voice, merged coup/in. Say it quickly and you will say 'coon' too.
It's good to know the facts before forming a judgment.
Don't you think you should take your own advice? Just because he says this is what was what he meant to say, doesn't mean it is true. Like I said earlier if this was what he meant to say there are a lot more words that need to be replaced and reordered.
DTOM believes this is what happen, and maybe it did, but I think it was more of what Sleeper claims. I say this due to the fact that though there was an immediate apology it wasn't followed by an immediate clarification, which makes me believe the clarification came after the fact. But don't presume his excuse for why he did it is a fact that shows it was not a slip of the tongue.
Should Dave Lenihan have been fired from his job?
I have somewhat of an inside track on this post. I am from St. Louis and have listened to Dr. Lenihan's statements and even called in the show to discuss issues. Frankly, the guy has no respect for African-Americans, save Condi and Colin. I listened to him explain how four police officers beating a black man at the end of a pursuit were wholly justified. Then when an African-American man called to try to add some perspective, Dr. Lenihan dismissed him and ended the conversation with and I quote: "That's why black guy's like you should go out and get a job." End quote.
The local NAACP leader concurred that it was a slip of the tongue, but he also said, "What we don't know is if it was a slip of character." And from my point of view, it was most certainly in his character to describe an African-American in a negative terms. It is just another example of a conservative saying, "I'm not a racist, I love n******."
I would not have fired him, but given recent events in St. Louis, firing him was the standard response. Another radio station suspended and subsequently fired two black DJs for joking about fighting with cops after a police officer had been killed.
Link to that story:
http://www.policeone.com/police/products/articles/117757
Just one many examples of how the Constitution isn't worth the paper it's written on.
I have somewhat of an inside track on this post. I am from St. Louis and have listened to Dr. Lenihan's statements and even called in the show to discuss issues. Frankly, the guy has no respect for African-Americans, save Condi and Colin. I listened to him explain how four police officers beating a black man at the end of a pursuit were wholly justified. Then when an African-American man called to try to add some perspective, Dr. Lenihan dismissed him and ended the conversation with and I quote: "That's why black guy's like you should go out and get a job." End quote.
The local NAACP leader concurred that it was a slip of the tongue, but he also said, "What we don't know is if it was a slip of character." And from my point of view, it was most certainly in his character to describe an African-American in a negative terms. It is just another example of a conservative saying, "I'm not a racist, I love n******."
I would not have fired him, but given recent events in St. Louis, firing him was the standard response. Another radio station suspended and subsequently fired two black DJs for joking about fighting with cops after a police officer had been killed.
Link to that story:
http://www.policeone.com/police/products/articles/117757
Just one many examples of how the Constitution isn't worth the paper it's written on.
[
Should Dave Lenihan have been fired from his job?
What response from his employer(s) would have been appropriate?
[/quote]
He clearly should have been fired. How does the word "coon" just slip off your tongue. And if you are a person where a word like that would slip off your tongue, I know that if I was his employer I would not want to be associated with him and fire his butt. We do not need any more people spreading this type of hate, especially over the air waves.
The employer 100% did the appropriate thing.
Should Dave Lenihan have been fired from his job?
What response from his employer(s) would have been appropriate?
[/quote]
He clearly should have been fired. How does the word "coon" just slip off your tongue. And if you are a person where a word like that would slip off your tongue, I know that if I was his employer I would not want to be associated with him and fire his butt. We do not need any more people spreading this type of hate, especially over the air waves.
The employer 100% did the appropriate thing.
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