"The U.S. House of Representatives has passed legislation that would make it a felony to be in the U.S. illegally, impose new penalties on employers who hire illegal immigrants, require churches to check the legal status of people they help, and erect fences along one-third of the U.S.-Mexican border."

Close to a million people protested this across the nation on Saturday. More than anyone expected, more than law enforcement expected, surpassing any protest during the Vietnam War. In various cities tens of thousands came out against this legislation, in L.A. 500,000.
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-im...-home-headlines

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060326/ap_on_...gration_rallies

Some opinions:





I believe that 'felony' is a strong indictment against an illegal imigrant, however, where in the world are you allowed total access to a neighboring countries resources because 1. you are poor and/or 2. just because you think you are entitled?
I am a free citizen of the United States of America, I hold a passport, but I cannnot go to work in Canada, Spain, Sweden or Zimbabwe, in fact anywhere in the world, and never in Mexico- without a work visa and immigration papers which stipulate my entry and return, I must provide visitation data and I cannot claim I belong there forever, deserve benefits, because I cleaned your house or worked in your restaurant after coming illegally.

Europe, when I left there, had a $10,000 fine for anyone who employed anyone outside the EU. Basically, no work visa, no work. I dont see why the US/Mexico situation is any different, but it obviously is.

My questions are:

Do illegals have a right to demand any rights in the U.S.?

Since they ' build our schools and cook our food', if we sent them all packing, back home, could we still run every restaurant, cleaning operation and all the dirty work we expect done, that our youth or population never even THINKS themselves lowly enough of doing? In other words, are we lying to ourselves about our plight and we actually need illegals?

Are we, business owners and common folk more of the problem than we would like to admit?

From a strictly legal standpoint, people who are in the United States (or any other nation) in violation of national law do not have the same rights as legal citizens of that nation. From an ethical standpoint, they should have the same (non-legal) "rights" as any other human being. By this I mean that it would be a bad idea, for example, to shoot anybody who enters the country illegally on sight. So far, I don't think there is too much controversy about this issue.

The devil is in the details. What should be done about illegal immigrants, within the broad guidelines listed above? I can only offer a few general suggestions.

Reasonable enforcement of existing immigration laws, with a focus on those who are dangerous criminals. (This would include those vultures who exploit, and sometimes kill, illegal immigrants who are trying to enter the United States for non-threatening reasons.) Keeping out drug runners and other Bad Guys is much more important than keeping out people seeking work. The legal system should work to make sure that illegal immigrants are neither the instigators nor the victims of violent crime.

A "guest worker" program, as proposed by the President. Along with this, encouragement of legal immigration.

Toss out the ideas of making illegal immigration a felony, and building a fence along the border. Both suggestions would be difficult to enforce, minimally effective, and extremely expensive.

If all illegal aliens were to vanish from the United States, I think it would have a devastating impact on the nation's economy. I don't think it's so much a matter of Americans refusing to work the backbreaking, low-paying jobs that illegal immigrants often work, as simply the fact that they have other options. It's easier to get a "good" job if you have all of your paperwork in order.

I think that the United States is going to simply have to face the fact the a certain amount of illegal immigration is going to exist, unless the nation turns into "Fortress America." I don't think we want to live in such a place.

Of course "we" are the problem. The lowest level of the American economy thrives on people who work very hard for very little money. This would be very difficult to change, although it would be a laudable goal.

Though you are technically right about an American working in say, Mexico- it is done with about the same scoflaw attitude as the illegals here in the US- in fact- there are so many Americans working in mexico illegally now- they have thier own racial slur "airbacks" or "drybacks" - since these Americans fly down to Mexico city.

http://www.utexas.edu/lbj/uscir/binpapers/v3a-1martin.pdf

Do illegals have a right to demand any rights in the U.S.?

Yes and no- I think some of the basics- not to be raped, or beaten, or murdered, but others- no, right to redress in civil court etc


Since they ' build our schools and cook our food', if we sent them all packing, back home, could we still run every restaurant, cleaning operation and all the dirty work we expect done, that our youth or population never even THINKS themselves lowly enough of doing? In other words, are we lying to ourselves about our plight and we actually need illegals?

Again- yes an no. I think it is a catch-22 in our economic system right now- we want cheaper products, we don't want illegal aliens, yadda yadda- if employers were forced to pass some pretty stringent anti-illegal alien hurdles, I think it would pretty much wipe out illegal hire- which would pretty much solve the problem- and, probably, in the end, jack up wages a bit in the US. Might even invigorate the teens to go out and get those jobs etc.

Are we, business owners and common folk more of the problem than we would like to admit? I would say you just named the real root causes of illegal immigration. Business owners have no real sanctions for hiring illegals- perhaps if there were say, mandatory 5 years in prison for hiring an illegal alien knowingly, and major fines for hiring them illegally, and put the burden of proof on the businesses that hire illegal aliens to find out if they ARE illegal aliens- we probably would see this issue dry up very quickly.

And our bargain shopping mentality in America (instead of quality items that last foever) is probably the root cause- we just don't want to give much money for what we get!

I find your comments extremely misleading. Illegal immigration is a universal occurrence, it happens in Europe, as it does in any other country or region all over the world. This idea that everyone but the US has this problem solved is farcical.

Also Artemise you say this.."where in the world are you allowed total access to a neighboring countries resources because 1. you are poor and/or 2. just because you think you are entitled? " to which I ask where in the world did the human drive for free movement, we sometimes call it migration, become something so evil and corrupt?
Human necessity, what we call life, dictates that if your surroundings are too poor and offer no sustenance you move on, to better and more fertile land. Immigration or migration is a human reality that the state needs to adapt to and adjust to.


All those in favor of federally criminalizing over 11 million people in this country..to what? What end will this bring? What is the final objective? You honestly believe we could orchestrate such a massive expulsion of people without a massive cost to human rights and dignity?

Do illegals have a right to demand any rights in the U.S.?
Yes absolutely, every human has certain inalienable rights regardless of race, gender religion or birthplace. I am a little disturbed that anyone feels this question needs to be asked.

I don't disagree that the cost of turning America into a "walled" nation would be far more than the cost of managing illegal immigration, but we might want to at least address the costs involved on our end. If we were to fine employers, there might be a revenue stream by which to break even???

I wouldn't say that the illegal immigrant labor is NECESSARY to keep the American economy functional, but often does increase the wealth of the US employers involved. In some cases, supposing Meat Packing for instance, it actually is very difficult to get acceptable margins without illegal labor.

from bucket

All I have to say is that if any other felon were to cry about the indignity of being jailed, most Americans would say "you shouldn't have stolen a car, or robbed the bank, etc". Frankly, the point we're making is that these immigrants came in ILLEGALLY. There ARE avenues by which immigration can happen without circumventing the law.

Are they still people? Do they still have blood running through their veins and hopes/dreams like we do? Of course. So, what's a good way to fix this??

I personally would make it easier for a Mexican to immigrate, and force naturalization. Afterall... do we really want an influx of immigrants, working legally in the US, that take their pensions and SS checks back to Mexico? I'd add a stipulation that no Mexican immigrant could have a SS check sent to Mexico, and any caught residing in Mexico would lose all SS/Pension benefits (this is a large part of the life cycle of our nation's economy, and a necessary evil).

How do we make this happen? We force residency and naturalization, coupled with some basic skills checks, such as speaking English (even if minimally to ensure law enforcement, etc). We force employers to provide even basic health care for immigrants, keeping them out of our free clinics when they become deathly ill.

The bane on the US economy when it comes to illegal immigrants, specifically for people living in Border states, is that they still require services like health-care and policing, but don't contribute to the tax base. This causes you and I to pay. Who should pay?? The employers...

Mexican immigrants, illegal or not, still often will work in labor-related industries that don't pay all that well. Funny enough, however, in parts of the nation where the immigrants aren't present, somehow the jobs still get done...

Felony charges for employers who use illegal/undocumented immigrants? I say why not... how does it really violate human rights?

So picking your fruit, washing your toilet, babysitting your kids, building your home is now akin to stealing your car. I think your argument is diverting, purposefully, because you wish to only focus on the negative outcome of these immigrants and not the positive ones. If we had no need or desire for them they would not be here and there would not be all these legal accommodations for their presence either.
There are not enough avenues, we need more, obviously.



You need to view this in the arena or context of free and fair trade. The free movement of labor is just as important to our economy as is goods and ideas. Restricting labor and demanding all that desire to come work here must be required, or as you have plainly stated..forced to become naturalized is wrong. It is far too cumbersome and or a barrier. We should have more of a focus on work visas, not everyone coming to America has plans to be here their entire lives, some would prefer to be here a few years and some would prefer to be here seasonally it is our failed immigration policy that forces them to remain indefinitely.


You seem to not really understand the driving forces and conditions in our economy that lure low wage workers in from Mexico etc. These are usually seasonal jobs... migrant farming, holiday/resort, construction etc. If it was not for our inability to realize that some coming to America desire merely to work, and work honestly, rather than fully and completely immigrate then perhaps we could have a better discussion or debate on the topic.

And what do you care what language someone chooses to speak? That has to be about one of the most personal and self determined conditions of a person, language. What's next, regulating standardized cuisines, clothing or celebrated holidays?

And that whole bit about employers being asked to pick up the medical bills...shouldn't we start with the actual citizens of the US first?


I am tired of this argument being used against illegal immigrants. First how exactly does one live in America and not pay taxes? How does that work? Secondly were you aware of the IRS' tax id program that was set up and implemented so that illegals could in fact pay taxes and not face or worry of retribution. Third..did you know how easy it is to get a fake SS# or passport or some other means of faking a legal trail in order to "legally" work and yes pay taxes? Lastly there are many Americans who don't pay much taxes too and are also taxing our welfare system. It seems to me this argument really is more or less focused on the failure of our nation's welfare policies than it is on our immigration polices.

Firstly... let's begin with some factual information that we can digest, as maybe we're not breaking emotional barriers and being realistic.

If someone doesn't speak English, it is far harder to assist in emergency situations, to provide aid in a hospital, and to provide basic services necessary for all residents of the United States. It shouldn't be a requirement that a Sheriff in rural Arkansas speak Spanish, for instance.

Secondly, read this article about the cost of illegal immigration. The reality is that many "migrant" industries aren't working from "fake" social security numbers, but more on a cash basis. This is actually even extremely common in non-migrant industries like construction.
From the same article:


The reality is that if an immigrant is off the IRS rosters, so to speak, the communities pick up the tab all around for the added expense.



HUH?
Our immigration policy actually allows them to come and go freely in the event that they have a work visa. The problem with our resident alien program is that it would allow them to receive SS benefits after retirement, regardless of where they live. If they don't want to live in the US and funnel their retirment savings back into our economy, then why do we need them?
Read some from the IRS website.

Currently, a Mexican on a work visa can literally pack up and go home at any time, while returning when they so choose as long as the visa is current. There is NO impediment to such travel. However, according to this article:


What does this mean? ? Basically, now we're paying closer attention to who's coming in and some of these visas are being denied.




My point is that basically we do have a need for migrant labor in the US, but it's nearly impossible to state it's exact value in relation to its cost. Consider that there are many parts of the US that don't rely on migrant labor, and seemingly exist without consequence. The Pacific Northwest, for instance, isn't nearly as flush with illegal immigration as Texas. Is their economy any better/worse? How does construction get done without the aid of Illegal immigrants? Who on earth cleans the toilets??

America IS a country founded upon the backbone of immigration. Most of us know grandparents or great-grandparents from another country. Maybe great-great-grandparents... but we get the point. The fact of the matter is that we really need to consider who should be a part of American society, and moreover consider that ILLEGAL immigration does not have to be a part of US society to ensure free trade, as we can use any other Western Society as a benchmark for this theory...immigrants and immigration is very much a part of being American. However, illegal shouldn't be a part of this sentence at all...

Illegal aliens by their status would seem to have few rights that have to be respected. However, it's ridiculous for Congress to think they can turn 11 million people into criminals and anyone that aids them (like a minister that provides the illegals with food or clothing) into a outlaw as well.

Secondly, just TRY and see what happens if the U.S. could actually try to accomplish the logistically impossible task of trying to round up, arrest, detain and deport millions of illegal aliens. As we saw from Hurricane Katrina, the federal and state governments would collapse under the strain. I would imagine that when American consumers go into their groceries and find there are no fresh fruit and vegetables available because they've gone unpicked in the fields, might rethink how much they don't need migrant workers.

The economy of the United States would crumble like a potato chip if it were left up to the native born work force to work the fields, do the service economy jobs and other low-skilled labor that many people eagerly cross the border to do.

Certainly business has made a deal with the devil by hiring illegal aliens to work in the crappy jobs most of us wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole. Eventually, what has come to pass is America has seen a wave of brown surging up from Mexico, Central and South America and as it comes ashore, many of these new immigrants have changed America to suit their ways instead of assimilating into the predominant culture. And that frankly scares and angers a whole lot of folks.

Anyone who has observed how America has lost control of its borders could have predicted how this was going to turn out. Trying to build a wall around the Southwest now isn't going to change the reality of the situation.

I agree with your post, but there is another issue at hand. Consider the significant cost and hassle for a poverty stricken Mexican to come to work in the US. It's expensive and time is lost in the process. Someone starving can't wait 2 weeks and pay $50 to get a visa... (or whatever it costs).

If I were to make the policy, I'd allow illegal immigrants to apply for an inexpensive (cover the cost) residency, allow amnesty for past illegal status, and give future migrant workers an easily understood and financially affordable option for temporary status. They'd pay taxes just as you and I, but wouldn't be able to take any pensions or SS back to Mexico. Also, the temporary status wouldn't include min wage laws (so that industries that currently employ them won't stop doing so) or any other laws that would otherwise be an impediment to such employment.

Simply put, we could put a cap on their time in country with such temp status, and ask that they foot the bill for their impact on our society. Communities that bear the burden of illegal immigrants wouldn't have a whole lot to complain about then... and their lawns would be mowed, etc. Also, the immigrants could still send money back to Mexico, save for their futures, and improve upon the life that they chose to leave in Mexico.

If they decided to stay, maybe after an arbitrary time period (like 12 months), we could ask that they pay for residency status and submit to the normal policies.

I don't disagree that chances are that you don't want benevolent Christians to stop feeding these people, or that you want farmers to starve because they can't get their produce picked and fields wither...

But why can't we meet in the middle? Illegal immigration DOES have a cost to the US, and of course a benefit. It's not that we don't want these people to be here in general, especially in Texas.

Do illegals have a right to demand any rights in the U.S.?

No, not really. They have the right not to be subject to acts of violence, but not because they "demand" these rights. Only because it's not a good idea to allow our own citizens to get into the habit of doing these things. Other than that, they really have very little in the way of legitimate rights. Any problems they face from being here are problems of their own making, stemming entirely from the choice they made to enter the country in violation of our laws.

Since they ' build our schools and cook our food', if we sent them all packing, back home, could we still run every restaurant, cleaning operation and all the dirty work we expect done, that our youth or population never even THINKS themselves lowly enough of doing? In other words, are we lying to ourselves about our plight and we actually need illegals?

We probably could run things ourselves. But if we couldn't, then we can always loosen our restrictions on legal immigration to replace the illegal aliens who are sent back home. But doing anything to legalize illegals here is absolutely the wrong way to go. It will only encourage more illegal immigration. We tried that in 1986, remember?

It needs to be emphasized that we don't owe them anything. They came here illegally, they knew the consequences of doing so.

There's a need and desire for drugs from Colombia OR Mexico, or they wouldn't be here either, would they? Do you think we need more avenues to get drugs into the country?

I think I've just exposed your bad logic. Just because they're here doesn't mean they are wanted.

First let me say there are a LOT of negatives with the things you suggest are benefitial. Would it not be better for a native-born American teenager or youngster to babysit than an illegal? I can remember how hard those jobs were to get as a kid. It's not like we NEED illegals to do these jobs.

The reason they are here is that COMPANIES and WEALTHY folks want to save money with these cheap workers. Who else will break their back for min wages?

And these people are a tremendous BURDEN on our society. I think there was a stat that stated a huge percentage of the jail population in California are illegal immigrants. Not to mention all the health care problems they're causing for us. One reason for increasing health care costs: illegal immigrants.




Or maybe we could use the MILLIONS of LEGAL unemployed, uneducated workers we have in the USA now by simpling PAYING MORE FOR THE JOBS and not making the jobs so horrible.



You don't have a problem with a two-language country? I think that's a horrible situtation. It's not bad enough that we have black-white issues, but now we have to be divided into Spanish-English as well?

What do I care? Because I like cohesiveness. I don't like divisiveness. And I see it everyday. These people coming here don't speak english and every company speaks Spanish so they don't have to learn english. Look at LA or Miami, you don't have to know english to live there....do you want that for the entire USA?


These illegal immigrants are a burden and are not wanted, IMHO. And they are definately not NEEDED. How many poor ghetto Barrios do you want across the USA? These people are UNEDUCATED and can't even speak ENGLISH!! Why do we want these people here??? DOn't we already have enough welfare cases on our hands?

What happens when they have kids who ARE legal because they were born here and they become welfare cases? I see it all the time. These kids aren't terribly bright either and speak half spanish/half english.

Do we want these people in the country when already there's an increasing shrinkage of the middle class?? Do we want our wages for our native-born poor and uneducated TO GO FURTHER DOWN?? What about the black poor?

I cannot believe there is not OUTRAGE of the illegal Mexicans stomping thru the streets in the USA protesting THEIR RIGHTS to be here. I cannot describe the rage when I see that footage. If you love Mexico so much, GO BACK NOW.

WE NEVER ASKED YOU TO COME.

Do illegals have a right to demand any rights in the U.S.?

Of course they have. As bucket pointed out, every human has certain inalienable rights - and that includes felons, even those created by laws that punish the victim. And, like bucket, I'm disturbed that this question even needs to be asked.

Since they 'build our schools and cook our food', if we sent them all packing, back home, could we still run every restaurant, cleaning operation and all the dirty work we expect done, that our youth or population never even THINKS themselves lowly enough of doing? In other words, are we lying to ourselves about our plight and we actually need illegals?

We are lying to ourselves when we assume that illegal labor is somehow essential to our economy. The notion that illegal immigrants "take jobs that Americans don't want" is a patently idiotic myth. Business loves illegal labor because such workers will work for less than minimum wage, they will work twelve, fourteen, or sixteen hour days, they will live in overcrowded squalor, they will work without sick leave, vacation pay, family housing, or health benefits, and they are usually tax-free. Sure, "Americans" won't work in those conditions - but no one should.

Maybe this would mean that a few restaurants or farms or janitorial services would go out of business. Good. People who profit through exploiting the misery of others should not be in business.

We only "need" illegal immigrants if we "need" to maintain a peasant class in the United States. I would strenuously argue that we don't - even if it means that a few amoral capitalists will be driven out of business and we have to pay a few cents more for our strawberries.

Are we, business owners and common folk, more of the problem than we would like to admit?

Absolutely. In fact, we are the entire problem. If we weren't illegally providing jobs to illegal immigrants, there would be no incentive for so much as a single person to enter the country illegally.

Like Europe, we should be addressing the cause of the problem: employers. I think a $10,000 fine for each illegal worker should be a minimum punishment. I'd go so far as to recommend jail time (in addition to fines) for those who hire workers without citizenship or work visas. Were that kind of law on the books, assuming it would be enforced, the illegal immigrant problem would be solved within a matter of months. Permanently.

Obviously, we would also have to reexamine our legal immigration and visa policies to offset some of the immediate drop in the workforce, especially in relation to the geographic distribution of our unemployed population. But we should bear in mind that the competition created by millions of illegal immigrants willing to work for substandard wages in inhuman working conditions depresses the wages of American workers. And this hits minority workers and those without high school degrees the hardest.

Of course, this would mean that a lot more employers would have to start paying a living wage and start conforming to labor laws - and that is the real problem here. The reality is that we have developed a system of peonage - and people like George W Bush just love it. They'd bring back slavery if they thought they could get away with it. The "guest worker program" is the next best thing - and, unless every single "guest" were monitored to ensure that they were working on an absolutely equal footing as citizens in terms of wages, rights, and benefits, should not be countenanced by anyone with a shred of decency.

Ah, my dear Wertz, you have lurched uncontrollably into the issue that belies this entire discussion. A matter of class and why the U.S. needs to have serfs willing to work for slave wages. I refer to Eric Schlosser's essay from Reefer Madness on the plight of migrant workers that should make any compassionate person ponder long and hard what went into that strawberry margarita they're about to drink.

The strawberry has long been known to migrants as la fruta del Diablo -- the fruit of the devil. Picking strawberries is some of the lowest-paid, most difficult, and therefore least desirable farmwork in California. Strawberries are fragile and bruise easily. They must be picked with great care, especially the berries that will be sold fresh at the market. Market berries are twisted, not pulled, off the stem to preserve a green cap on top. Workers must select only berries of the proper size, firmness, shape, and color. They must arrange the berries neatly in baskets to catch the shopper's eye. Learning how to pick strawberries correctly can take weeks. The worker is often responsible not only for gathering and packing the fruit but also for tending the plants. The drip irrigation system has to be continually checked. Shoots and runners have to be removed. Rotting berries have to be tossed away, or they will spoil the rest. When a piece-rate wage is being paid, workers must perform these tasks and pick berries as fast as they can. There is a strong undercurrent of anxiety in a field being harvested at piece-rate. Workers move down the furrows pushing small wheelbarrows; they pause, bend over, brush away leaves to their left and right, pick berries, place them in boxes, check the plants, and move on, all in one fluid motion. Once their boxes are filled, they rush to have them tallied at the end of the field, rush back, and begin the process again.

Strawberry plants are four or five inches high and grow from beds eight to twelve inches high. You must bend at the waist to pick the fruit, which explains why the job is so difficult. Bending over that way for an hour can cause a stiff back; doing so for ten to twelve hours a day, weeks at a time, can cause excruciating pain and lifelong disabilities. Most strawberry pickers suffer back pain. As would be expected, the older you get, the more your back hurts. Farmworkers, like athletes, also decline in speed as they age. The fastest strawberry pickers tend to be in their late teens and early twenties. Most migrants quit picking strawberries in their mid-thirties, although some highly skilled women do work longer. Age discrimination is commonplace in the fields -- it is purely a question of efficiency.

The hourly wages vary considerably, depending on the grower, the type of strawberry being picked, the time of year, and often, the skill of the worker. Wages are higher in Watsonville and Salinas than in Southern California, because of the greater distance from Mexico. Growers producing top-quality berries for the fresh market may pay as much as $8 or $10 an hour. At the height of the season, when berries are plentiful and growers pay a piece-rate of $1.25 a box, the fastest workers can earn more than $150 a day. But wages at that level only last for a month or so, and even during that period most workers can't attain them. When a crew of thirty picks at a piece-rate, three or four will earn $10 an hour, five or six will earn at or below the state minimum wage, $6.75 an hour, and the rest will earn somewhere in between.

The availability of work, not the pay scale, is of greatest concern to migrants. Despite the hardships that accompany the job, there is an oversupply of people hoping to pick strawberries. The fear of unemployment haunts all farmworkers in California today. Each harvest brings a new struggle to line up enough jobs for a decent income. The average migrant spends half the year working and a few months looking for work.

http://usinfo.state.gov/eap/Archive_Index/...rry_Fields.html

No, we didn't ASK for the Mexicans to come here, but we're wallowing in a mire of hypocrisy if we want to pretend they haven't become an essential part of the smooth functioning of the American economy. Mexico has to face up to it's economic conditions and lack of opportunity, but America has to own up to the fact that so many businesses can only function with an endless supply of cheap, unskilled labor that won't demand living wages, benefits or even decent treatment.

There has to be put in place a process to maintain some control of who enters the country, where they go and how long they can stay if they do not wish to become citizens. It is utterly impossible to deport 11 million people. That's not going to happen and following the fantasies of Bill O' Reilly and Pat Buchanan of building a wall between the U.S. and Mexico and having the National Guard stationed at it ready to shoot some poor slob trying to get in is utterly revolting.

The chickens have come home to roost. The demonstrations across America last weekend stunned the politicians and general population whom have been slow to recognize the ramifications of the Faustian bargain they had made. Now it's far too late to try and throw up walls, guards and barbed wire.

The new Americans are here, amigos. Time to stand and deliver a hard dose of R-E-A-L-I-T-Y and all the Fortress America posturing isn't going to reverse the tide.

Since when must our society and it’s laws be most concerned with policing the state? Is that the new American dream? We do not have a homogenous society and we never have, I happen to feel this is one of our nation's strengths and one of the factors we must always prepare for. When I hear this argument and ones similar I am left wondering if it is general intolerance or specific. Do you feel the same for hearing impaired people, should they also be restricted from our society because some Sheriff in rural Arkansas can’t sign?

Also are you going to address my questions I asked of you about the IRS tax ID# that is basically the illegal immigrants method for legally paying taxes that is also sanctioned, implemented and peddled to illegal immigrants by the IRS. What a farce to see one arm of the federal government offering instruction and seminars on how illegals should pay taxes and another demanding stricter penalties.

aevans176 I find your argument confusing because you seem to be using two conflicting reasons for presenting these immigrants as a burden on our society. One you claim they do not pay taxes, I disagree as I already asked, how does someone in America not pay taxes? Even if you are not contributing out of your payroll how are you avoiding the myriad of all the many other taxes..sales, property etc? Also it isn’t the least bit shocking to see a report by FAIR that portrays immigration of any kind in a bad light. And if anyone is wondering where some of us get the idea that even the alleged legitimate anti-immigration groups are based in a racist ideology I reccommend reading this article....
The Puppeteer
or this one...
Is FAIR unfair?

But then you go on to complain and put forth the threat of SS moving south, but if their contributions from payroll taxes is that minimal why is their any worry? Perhaps because their contributions to SS are in fact quite significant
Illegal Immigrants Are Bolstering Social Security With Billions



I think we need more legal avenues for drug use in this country. Not too big on this whole criminalize the world thing.



What are the negatives, perhaps you should detail them so we can better debate them.
Also I suggest you go tell the
AMERICAN FARM BUREAU FEDERATION
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF AGRICULTURAL EMPLOYERS
NATIONAL CATTLEMEN'S BEEF ASSOCIATION
NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF STATE DEPARTMENTS OF AGRICULTURE
AMERICAN NURSERY & LANDSCAPE ASSOCIATION
BIRDS EYE FOODS
DEERE & COMPANY
TYSON FOODS INC.
UNITED EGG PRODUCERS
NATIONAL CHRISTMAS TREE ASSOCIATION
UNITED FRESH FRUIT & VEGETABLE ASSOCIATION
U.S. APPLE ASSOCIATION
U.S. CUSTOM HARVESTERS, INC.
WESTERN GROWERS ASSOCIATION
WESTERN RANGE ASSOCIATION
WESTERN UNITED DAIRYMEN
AMERICAN HORSE COUNCIL
NATIONAL POTATO COUNCIL
NEW ENGLAND APPLE COUNCIL
COBANK
FIRST PIONEER FARM CREDIT
and the hundred others who all supported the AgJOBS bill that died without even a debate! that they don’t need this labor and can hire high school kids. I am sure they will all be so pleased to hear you have figured out their dilemma.


Well you forgot another component of the whole demand thing. The consumers. And who else will break their backs? How about those living in Mexico, Brazil, Vietnam, China. How will their imports not become more of a demand if the cost of producing in the US became higher?

And making more of them felons is going to solve this issue how exactly? And what a charade to lay blame of increasing health care costs on Illegal immigrants, what a terribly dishonest scapegoat that is.




And then the cost of living goes up and if I remember correctly aren’t you terribly against any form of inflation of any kind?
Here is how to make Americans take those jobs, we rid ourself of min wage, we cut off all forms of welfare or social insurance and we get unemployment up to about 15-20%. Then we would probably see Americans become migrant farm workers again. Yay! That looks like a really promising future, in fact I am just going to stop saving for my kids college, they can just become migrant farm workers.

I think more or less this industry is going to have to automate and become less dependent on human labor in order to remain competitive.

As for the rest of your post it is just a yelling, ranting rage.



I don’t think it is a lie at all, I think you just haven’t asked the right question. It is not that they are essential to the economy but instead essential to the economy we desire. And it isn’t so much that they take jobs we don’t want, but instead they take jobs we don’t want to pay much for. Business greed is one aspect but I think consumer greed is as much a factor as any other.
The only way to improve their conditions is to give them a legal status that permits or allows their voices to be heard.


The exploitation will just move outside our borders and in my opinion intensify, as many other countries have far less regulations or concerns for this issue.


Or the Strawberry farms will head south, the money and investments will go there too and people in the store will choose homegrown or cheap, and which do you think Americans are likely to pick?



Again this misconception, what do you mean like Europe? Like the rise of extreme right parties prominence in the political spectrum? Is that how we should do it? I never got the impression they were addressing the cause very well either.
I have to admit I am really surprised by this belief that some here seem to have about Europe and Immigration. As that has not been my experiences living in Europe and every time I speak with my family or visit that has to be the one constant unending complaint...immigrants, legal or not.

Well, ya see, that's actually the issue at hand. These people are criminals, yes they came here without going through the correct process and now they are illegally here.

It's not too late to throw them out because they don't belong here.

It's not too late to put up walls to keep them in their own countries so that Mexico and the others don't use the USA as THEIR DUMPING GROUND.

Yes, I was shocked to see 10,000 protestors in the city of Detroit. Gee, maybe that's why we have nearly 8% unemployment? All the cheap businesses would prefer to hire illegal MExicans than native born Detroiters.

In fact, they interviewed people from the protests and the majority of them had TRANSLATORS. What is that about?

ANd there was one white dude who said "these people are my livelyhood". What? Trafficing illegals is your livelhood? He's basically admitting that he makes money from illegal workers....and he does so openly with no regrets.

Something is VERY wrong with immigration. We need to make DRASTIC actions before the US becomes another Mexico.....or worse.

We DO NOT NEED THESE PEOPLE. Sorry if your strawberries might cost a little bit more, in fact we used to go pick our berries ourselves.....it wasn't terribly difficult.

When people march thru the streets with Mexican flags demanding their rights....how can you not be outraged? I'm sure the people that are pulling for these criminals are also the same people that would complain about the US intervention in another country where the US dictates what happens in another country.

CLOSE THE BORDER, THROW THESE NON-ENGLISH-SPEAKING workers OUT!

So when Exxon and all the oil companies lobby so they can make more profits, do you stick up for them the same way?

Of course Ag companies support CHEAP and ENDENTURED slaves. Gee, what a shock. What are the odds that they also FIGHT a minimum wage increase?

There's more than just using high school kids. We have plenty of able-bodied people in this country that cannot find work. They are uneducated, poor and many are children of ILLEGALS. Funny how one generation of "we can't live without them" spawns another generation of "we don't want them".

There's also TECHNOLOGY. These companies will never automate or upgrade technology to aid in agriculture if they can get cheap workers.

Eliminating the "easy out" for Ag companies will force them to consider options THAT ACTUALLY HELP AMERICA!



Sweet! Let Mexico keep their people in Mexico, maybe they'll grow their middle class! Maybe those people will stay and build their economies so some day THEY can buy our fruit!

QUOTE

U.S. taxpayers have spent hundred of millions on patients like Diaz and Gloria. As a consequence, the states are facing a crisis of unparalleled magnitude. As Los Angeles Times columnist Ronald Brownstein wrote in his December 30 column “Health-Care Storm Brewing in California Threatens to Swamp U.S.”, “the impending Medicaid disaster is not a problem the states can handle alone; their budget shortfalls are too big.”

http://www.vdare.com/guzzardi/health_care.htm

Scapgoat? Do a google on "illegal immigrants health care costs". These people are killing our health care system.

Why? Because you brag about cheap labor but you just happen to forget the COST of these people. It's like WalMart, they provide cheap goods, but someone has to pay for the medical bills and jail cells and other costs....THAT'S YOU AND ME, sister. Those workers are not as cheap as you think. And companies are avoiding the real costs and passing them onto native-born Americans.



I see, so subjecting Mexicans to this unfortunate fate is...er, OK?

I agree, if these companies can't do it with American workers....maybe it shouldn't be done. Or maybe they do need to upgrade technology so they can get it done and make money doing it. Is that so bad? Is there a reason we have to flood the USA with ignorant and non-english workers that burden our health care system and prisons?



Well I did say I was outraged. Apparently this doesn't affect you at all, so to you this no different than discussing the intricacies of a Shakespeare play?

I was unemployed of an entire year. I looked for work in high-end industry and low-end industry, because I don't qualify for welfare. In the high-end I saw H1-B workers working here from Asia, in engineering and computer-related areas....IN MY OWN BACKYARD. Companies preferred to bring in workers from India and China rather than hire me.

Then I looked at the low-end, there was a job at a shipping facility that had a manager position....it required speaking spanish. This is in DETROIT, MICHIGAN. Not Texas, not California or Florida....MICHIGAN. Why, you may ask? Because the company was using cheap Mexican workers, work that I was willing to do for a decent wage....but I couldn't even do the manager position.

Rage doesn't even begin to express how I feel when I see 10,000 of these people in the streets in Detroit. People like you have turned your back on AMERICANS for cheap goods and a warm fuzzy feeling. It makes me sick.

Wertz's point of view is simply too idealistic.

Let's assume that migrant workers are working for $5 an hour and 12 hour days. A deplorable wage and working condition in the United States. One simply cannot live on that! However, the prevailing wage in Mexico for these jobs is about $4 per day for a 12 hour day. That's $0.33 per hour.

The fact is that no matter how poorly we can view migrant worker pay in the United States, it is about 8 to 10 times (or more) of the pay they would receive for the same work if it were done 100 miles to the south. THAT is why we have a migrant worker (undocumented worker, illegal alien) problem. Mexicans and others can simply make more money doing this than they can by staying in Mexico.

Too many people use words like "plight" "abuse" "exploitation" "slavery" as well as words like "unwanted" "burden" "menace" "parasites" or whatever other terms. None of that solves the problem because no one is looking at this critically.

We do need migrant workers. We do have low-paying, low-skill jobs that most Americans do not want. We do have millions of illegal, undocumented workers in this country.

Part of the problem began with the 1986 Immigration bill which basically made it illegal for companies to scrutinize workers' documentation for fear of discriminating against someone who "appears to be foreign". Governmental nonsense. It is the company's duty to make sure that the people they employ are allowed to work in the United States. Every job I've ever had has made me provide this documentation (birth certificate, passport, whatever). Why should someone skate by to avoid the charge of discrimination?

Let's put the burden back on companies to make sure they people they hire are legally allowed to work. I also advocate fairly hefty fines for companies that break the immigration laws. The problem now is that the government encourages them to do so by asking, no--requiring, that they not look too closely at documents. This needs to change.

Next: what to do with the millions of illegals already here? Obviously we must document them. We cannot allow this nonsense to continue. If you want to work here, you need the proper documents.

For those that broke the law getting into the United States (yes, these people are criminals) and are already here, make them register. I think there should be a nominal fee of about $100 payable over a period of 3 months. After that, they have their documents and are free to work in the US. There does need to be a penalty for breaking the law, but not a harsh one.

Next, exclude certain occupations from the income tax and possibly Social Security. What?!? Exclude them from income tax? Yes.

I think most people don't realize that workers that make around the minimum wage almost universally are eligible for the Earned Income tax credit which pays such workers thousands per year. The dollar amount here is negligible and the work required to file tax returns is high in comparison.

Next, we need to set up a relatively easy way to apply and be granted a guest work permit in the United States. We need this labor, we need people willing to do certain jobs that Americans are unwilling to take. In short, we need this supply of labor. It benefits the workers as well. They make much more here than could hope to in their homeland. The working conditions, while harsh by suburban American standards, are as good or better than they would receive at home.

This situation exists because it is a win-win for both employers and workers. I defy anyone to deny this. The problem is that we don't know who these people are. The problem is the potential security concerns. Documenting these people, while burdensome, is not impossible. Giving migrants a legal avenue which is relatively easy to maneuver will encourage them to take this route. Forcing businesses to comply with verifying their employees' legality to work in the US is not anything different than every other business does in the US.

Problem solved.

A word of advice... maybe try to be more careful when using links, as your articles weren't posted correctly. I did find the first... but by searching on my own.

I also would find more objective or empirically based sources. Tolerance.org is hardly CNN or the BBC... Secondly, the article discusses Tancredo, and not the whole United States government. Frankly, it also doesn't debunk any of the claims that we've made. There aren't any staggering or useful pieces of information on the puppeteer site.

If you plan to help "change the hard conservative mind", maybe try to show where our claims aren't true.

Next, maybe we should read a little quote from Teddy Roosevelt:



Ok... that being out of the way. Let's talk about the Tax ID program, and it's complete ineffectiveness.
Read this: (from the Center on Immigration studies...article found here)


So, basically, we DON'T know how many are paying these taxes, but if I were to make an educated guess... umm... it's Slim to None. Why on earth would they???

Also, in reference to language, it's not all about police. What about emergency services. If someone doesn't speak English in Shreveport, Louisiana, do you really think that they can effectively dial 911? What about medical care? Should people in hospitals in Sioux Falls speak Spanish? (if so, should they also be required to speak Vietnamese?) What about for basic services like driver's licensing... ??? Should the DMV workers be bi-lingual? What about tri-lingual? Seriously... are you willing to pay for these services? Should they just go without licenses? No licenses... what about no insurance?? Ahhh... that's the point...

There is no proof that illegal aliens are paying income taxes, and frankly, it's not really fair that the rest of the country is paying for their American dream. Sales taxes maybe... but Property taxes?? Do you really think that illegal aliens are buying homes? Come on... if the IRS won't even tell us who's paying via ITIN's, I doubt that there are mortgages being given to illegal aliens on any grand scale.

My point is simply this. Why not document them, and force all here going forward to be documented as well? Those staying long-term should be forced to become naturalized, as if they want to be Mexicans or Indians (or whatever), they should've stayed there! I have no problem with the American dream, as that it what it is precisely... American.

Considering the abject poverty of Mexico, I don't even have a problem with a nearly-no -cost solution to documentation. As I've said before, if someone is starving and has to walk through the desert to find work, who can fault them?

The problem lies in the notion that some people really think that Mexicans should be able to flood our borders in a fashion different than that of say... Afghani's. Why have passports or an INS at all? Seriously. The INS is a safeguard to our health, wealth, and safety all around. There shouldn't be a reason to cirucumvent the process, but maybe an improvement is in order.

Remember that no "western" nation has a policy that allows unfettered immigration into their country. There are sound reasons for this....

We do? Why is that?

My question for all the people that ASSUME Americans won't do these jobs is the following: What happens when jobs YOU ABSOLUTELY KNOW WITHOUT UNCERTAINY Americans will do are suddenly asking for quest workers?

How do you draw a line between what "Americans will do" and what "Americans won't do?" when the company obviously will opt for the cheaper worker?

Let's say WalMart starts requesting cheap guest workers...then Sears, then McDonalds, then next it's packing plants and then factory work...etc., etc.

How do you REALLY know AMericans won't do these jobs and it's not just the company trying to make the bottom line better by getting desparate people from Mexico?

Do you realise what this is doing to wages for impoverished Americans? You say this so glibbly and I just get red under the collar.

"Oh we need them, no one will do these jobs". REALLY? HOW DO YOU KNOW?

How do you know it's not just companies who want to pay $5/hr for a job to someone they know WILL NOT QUIT?

These illegals and this guest worker program is going to bring the standard of living for native-born Americans DOWN. I cannot believe how many people are defending this!

I am really speechless. What will it take for people to wake up? A depression? Mass poverty? Gezus.

Of course they'll quit: if the pay and conditions are worse than they could get elsewhere.

In Mexico, the pay AND conditions are worse. We know this because these people will face bodily harm and fairly remote but real danger of deportation in order to travel to get these jobs.

Some Americans might take these jobs, but very few. Why? The pay is low and the benefits are non-existent. They could do better at McDonalds or WalMart and work inside in the air conditioning.

I'm sorry RedCedar, but I don't see these hordes of unemployed people who are clamoring for a job and are being pushed out by migrants. I don't see them picketing outside of the Comfort Inn asking for cleaning jobs, I don't see them lining up at Tyson Foods to take meat packing jobs. I short, I just don't see it.

NONE. They are criminals and should be located and deported.



The business that “need” illegals could use Americans – the difference is they would have to PAY more. So our produce prices would be slightly higher. On the other hand we would not have the expense of their medical care, crime, school use etc. IMO we would save Billions. If we “need” workers then lets set up a program to get them into the country legally. Then we know who they are and where they are.

And lets not kid ourselves that all the jobs they do are very low level. They are a good part of the construction industry in southern states and make decent wages. And don’t kid yourself on the taxes either. Even the ones that are forced to give a (phony) SS# do so and claim the max – 10 dependants. Thus if they have anything taken from their checks it is peanuts. Then they send most of the money they make home while they use US services.

A bad deal all around.

And who are you? Do you work for Tyson foods? Comfort Inn? Seriously, I think your just making this up. Do you do gov't polls and surveys?

To be honest, I can't help but think your opinions are just your sheltered opinions based on what Tyson and Comfort Inn tell you. Show me proof Americans won't take those jobs? I'll do house cleaning if it pays better than $5/hr. In fact I applied for a housing cleaning job for $9/hr when I became unemployed and I DID NOT GET THE JOB!

Surprise, AN AMERICAN WILLING TO DO HOUSE CLEANING! Oh my, there goes your little theory.

And if these jobs are so terrible, maybe they should be forced to improve? Maybe Tyson is so horrible....because Tyson is so horrible. Maybe plucking chickens and packing them is not a job "no American will do" but it's a job that Tyson can get desparate people from Mexico to do in complete and utter inhumane working conditions.

Why limit this to Mexico? If we have guest worker permits, why not bring in the shiploads of workers in Asia that will undoubtly work for much, much less than MExicans. Now THEY are TRULY desparate.

You didn't address my question however. What happens when WalMarts or whoever starts asking for Pakistanis to mop their stores? After all, no American would mop a floor, right? If they won't do house cleaning, they won't mop......or stock shelves, or be cashiers.....

WaLMart NEEDS workers! Americans won't work at WalMarts, right? No benefits, low pay.....WalMart already brought in desparate Eastern Europeans! Why no Asians or alas, Mexicans?

Why not hook up jobs with folks that need jobs? After all, American has licked it's poverty problems.....NO impoverished Americans in this here United State, right?

Again, how do you differentiate between what Americans will do and what they won't. Because your arbitrary anecdotal evidence that Americans won't house clean just isn't going to cut it with me.

Show me what the dividing line is.

Here's the dividing line:

You said you'd do the job if it were for more than $5 an hour. But what if it's only $5.25 an hour?

Americans feel they are entitled to better. Like it or not, we are a spoiled society. We demand more and more while we expect to do less and less. I'm sorry to say that it's the new American way.

Immigrants feel no sense of entitlement. They know that no one will give them anything. Of course, they don't help their cause by waving Mexican flags at anti-immigration reform rallies. THAT alienates Americans more than anything else. Most Americans have no problem with immigrants who want to come here, speak the language, learn the culture, and fit in. They do have a problem with people who want to come here and identify with there.

Let's go back to your premise: that there are a ton of people willing to work at low paying, low skill, highly menial jobs. If that's so, why does McDonalds hire at $8 an hour? Why do these "entry level" jobs start higher than minimum? Cleveland entry level job search Why are these jobs available at all if there are so many willing to take them?

Entitled to a decent living? Geez, god forbid AMericans would expect to be treated decently and given a FAIR WAGE. Just because Mexicans are SO desparate, yes DESPARATE, is that a reason to drag our standard of living down to theirs? Do I need to work for $1/day like they do in CHina just to survive?

You know what else pays better than $5/hr? CRIME. Sure, I can sell drugs for much better than $5/hr. And guess what, if I get caught my standard of living in prison is BETTER than making $5/hr in the US economy.



No. No they don't....oh wait...unless they march through the streets demanding they have a right to be in a country...THEY'RE ILLEGALLY IN!?!?!

Uh yeah, no entitlement mentality there.

And they don't speak english and constantly ask "espanol?". Hmmmm. I'm thinking ENTITLEMENT!



Well golly, isn't that what America needs? People that will work for nothing, no benefits and no safety net?

Let me ask you this Amlord, do you think we should have standards for living in the US? I mean, don't you think there should be a minimum of decency for a person? Is that an entitlement to you, to be treated like a human being?

To make a decent wage? To not be exploited by a company like WalMart or Tyson who make millions, neh, BILLIONS in profits while treating their workers like dirt?

Of course immigrants have few expectations, they come from an environment THAT DOES NOT CARE ABOUT THEM. ANd you want them to bring that environment here?



Wal-Mart got 25,000 applications for 325 openings for a new Chicago area store. This has the usual suspects lining up.

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/...s_for_350_jobs/




Like I said, you pay someone $5/hr and you would be scraping the barrel simply becausing there are much better opportunities. BUt what happens when we flood the economy with people willing to work for $5/hr. Then those McDonald and WalMart jobs WILL COME DOWN.

$8/hr is still BELOW THE POVERTY LINE. Just because people refuse to work for $200/week for a 40hr work week does not mean they wouldn't if there were no alternatives.

AMEN... I think this is a summation of illegal immigrant labor in the US. Maybe not H1 visa labor, but illegal Mexican labor.



Actually, there is some truth to both of your notions. In the predominant area of the country where immigrant (Mexican specifically) labor is utilized, Americans don't want to work for the wages in the conditions that are present because there are generally better alternatives. This could even include unemployment benefits.

Frankly, most Americans aren't starving due to lack of opportunity. Texas is a great example. The thing is that unemployment may pay better than the house cleaning job, or maybe that most people can actually walk into a Walmart in Dallas and make $9+/hr.

The problem is that in many cases, jobs that may have paid $17/hr (or more) can often be filled by immigrant labor on even a skilled level. Drive by a construction site here in Texas (or even my home state of Louisiana). You'd be surprised to see how many roofers, dry wall men, painters, carpenters, etc are Mexican (or appear to be hispanic anyway). This doesn't lend any creedence to the notion that they very well may be legal... not all hispanics are illegal aliens! The problem is that if a Mexican will do the job at $9/hr, construction companies will hire them all day long.

How can we quantify how many illegal aliens are working in the US, and in which industries? You really can't... of course unless they started paying taxes!!! hahaha... ok, that's a joke. It's not going to happen.

But as a general rule, it's probably safe to assume that in most cases that there is very little unemployment caused by illegal alien labor in the United States, but probably wage disparity in some industries.

What's the answer?? I personally believe that if they started paying taxes, the benefits of being here and earning a fraction of the wage would diminish. If a labor job on a construction site would ordinarily pay $12/hr in Texas for a single male, take home pay (after SS and Taxes, etc) is probably roughly $9.60. If the immigrants had to pay the same 20% (all deductions) out of their checks, chances are the dynamic would change. Also, these documented workers would cause employers to pay insurance that they most likely aren't paying (after all, if they don't care about hiring illegals, why pay for insurance?).

Do illegals have a right to demand any rights in the U.S.?

I should have been clearer about this question, which was referring to the protests.
It wasnt meant to be a human rights question and Im suprised anyone took it that way.

Its harder for me to compose, but what I meant was, illegals are protesting in droves, saying 'weve been here for years, we are part of this country now, you cant kick us out or criminalize our behavior'.

What I meant was 'Do they have rights now, simply because they have been here so long?
How do they figure? No other country I know has 'automatic' acceptance because of longevity. Europe holds amnesty registrations every so often, an opportunity to get legal, or possibly get deported if not accepted.

All wealthy nations have immigration problems, but I havent seen the illegals rise up and demand some kind of 'natural rights' like we have here, or claim they are being scapegoated. (I believe that it was legal refugees that were rioting in France for basic human rights and to be treated fairly, but I could be wrong.)

Bucket, Im not sure you dont purposely try to twist the topic questions to mean something they dont, and I said that making illegal immigration a felony was extreme.
There are immigration laws for a reason, people are going to desire to migrate, but wealthier countries canot simply have open door policies.
Some of these jobs could be taken by our american youth, just like they were not so long ago. Working ones way up teaches the value of a buck, and in my opinion our kids are often spoiled by luxury and an unwillingness to do any job considered lowly. Many of us worked in kitchens, restaurants, as hotel staff and did so called 'lowly jobs' when we were young, jobs suddenly 'noone? wants to do anymore? I find that absurd.

I also find this sense of latino entitlement to be able to come here illegally and stay forever 'just because we did' and protest the 'right to' equally absurd. Thats why I posed the second questions.

We are roughly in agreement here. But maybe we want an inhuman economy. If there comes a time when I can't afford a strawberry margharita, maybe I'll just go for a shot of tequila.


Um, no. What I mean is what follows the bit of my post that you quoted. We should put the onus on the employer and start fining them for every illegal alien that they hire. That's all.



Though, interestingly, it's approximately the same point of view you express. At least up to a point. I agree entirely that the burden should be on companies to make sure they people they hire are legally allowed to work.

Beyond that, I suggest revising our immigration and work visa policies - though I didn't go into the sort of detail you did in terms of alternatives. And that's mostly because I don't think we need that much detail. We have a "guest worker program" - it's called a work visa. Perhaps we should expand or (forgive the term) liberalize our visa system - offering, say, seasonal visas, renewable annually for certain types of work - but we certainly don't need to create a new "class" of worker. Indeed, we need to eliminate a class of worker - a class that is exploited and abused.

The only problem I have with this entire illegal immigrant problem, is we seem to assume the illegals are hard-working Mexicans trying to make a better life for themselves and their families.

And that appears to be a very bad assumption. Although the overwhelming majority would seem to fit that description, there is a fair percentage that are not in that group. While we're out jabbing a stick in the hornet's nest over in Iraq, we are breeding more and more terrorists. We are not drawing terrorists from other regions into Iraq - we are simply creating new ones that are happy to take that job.

So, this group of people can basically walk into America just like the Mexicans where they too can be granted amnesty. And that's the problem I have with this entire policy. I think some here on AD may be hypocritical because they attack Bush's policy of invasion/pre-emption, but now embrace his policy of amnesty for illegals. I don't think you can have it both ways. Terrorism is a problem and we need to protect ourselves. Non-existent border security and allowing people to invade us illegally doesn't seem to further that cause.

Lastly, I work with corporations that have built plants in Mexico on the border of Texas. Almost all have shut them down because they can't get workers. And why is that? It's not the job and/or pay. It's the entitlements they get for simply being in America. Mexicans don't come here for just the money. They come here for the benefits that go with it. Bush's program will only incentivize them further.

Looking at this from a purely exterior perspective, I have to wonder at it.

Do illegals have a right to demand any rights in the U.S.?

All people have rights, but thats not the same as saying people should be allowed to break the law and then be rewarded for it because they cleaned the toilets for a pittance.

What sort of a state requires a slave labour force in order to function anyway?


Since they 'build our schools and cook our food', if we sent them all packing, back home, could we still run every restaurant, cleaning operation and all the dirty work we expect done, that our youth or population never even THINKS themselves lowly enough of doing? In other words, are we lying to ourselves about our plight and we actually need illegals?

Of course you could run the USA without these people. If anything, getting rid of them would force employers in the USA to start paying a decent wage for a decent job.

What your seeing with this problem is the polar opposite to the problems caused by socialism. The unchecked capitalist system you all have in the USA encourages employers to treat people like dirt in orde to maximize profits. Some one said earlier on in this thread that if they could, the GW Bush government would bring back slavery and I agree with that. Totally. There is no solidarity in capitalism. No empathy for other people. Only the over whelming need to maintain 'growth'.


Are we, business owners and common folk more of the problem than we would like to admit?

Any one who puts their own profit ahead of other people's rights is part of the problem. And as long as the system allows corruption and exlpoitation to exist then immigration will continue.

I'm not advocating socialism as the solution, heaven forbid! but the USA needs to tackle its problem with greed. This constant consumerism hints at a vast and dangerous void at the heart of the nation's psyché.

Sometimes it takes someone outside the environment to grasp the insanity of it all. You're exactly right, why would you treat other people like dirt because you don't want to do it? What kind of perspective is that? To look at another person that way?

The US used to be based on the protestant work ethic. Now we sit back and say "yeah, we're too fat and lazy to do that kind of work". Or we're too good for that kind of work. It is just pathetic what we have become.

The fact that the president says it and people say "yup, that's true" is equally nauseating.

Living in the US has driven me to insanity in the last 5 years. Starting with the invasion of a sovereign nation ala the Soviet Union. And now having people from another country, in the MILLIONS, stomp through our streets, waving their flag, saying how they should have a right to be here illegally.

And people are not outraged!!

Pure insanity. The lack of sense and logic in this nation drives me nuts. And listening to people defend illegals such as aevans who says

"AMEN... I think this is a summation of illegal immigrant labor in the US. Maybe not H1 visa labor, but illegal Mexican labor."

In other words, he doesn't worry about poor people getting locked out of the job market and having their wages drop off the map, but HIS wages are another story and H1Bs cannot be tolerated.

I posted a study here within the last week to which no one responded. Our country is in serious trouble with regards to a poor and uneducated work force and it's growing. Not only do we not need these workers, we need our current low-skill jobs to increase their pay and benefits.

moif, you hit the nail on the head. This country is full of individuals who only care about themselves.

They're willing to live with global warming if it prevents them from having a millitary vehicle as their means to get around.

They're willing to allow millions of people from another country come here illegally, because they think they're getting slave labor out of it.

No sacrifice, no work ethic, it's just sad. Is it any wonder why we have trillions of dollars of debt? Who is going to say 'NO', who is going to take the sacrifice? Who is going to do the work?

Like I said before, I am just speechless. How people can be so glib about letting the standards in this country go into the toilet is beyond me.

Do illegals have a right to demand any rights in the U.S.?

I dislike the term 'any' in this question. Of course, they have a right to demand certain rights. They are, after all, human beings, and, apart from being in this country illegally, might in every other way be productive members of our society. The question, to me, isn't do they have 'any' rights, it's which rights do they have? The exception noted above is important in this regard...they are, by definition, in this country illegally. Therefore, again by definition, they shouldn't be here at all. It would seem then that the rights they are entitled to are to be allowed to rectify their status, or to kindly and humanely be removed from this country. We simply cannot have a policy of allowing illegal immigrants. If we do that, what is the point of having immigration laws at all?

Perhaps this question might be a little clearer if we reversed the perspective. Were we to sneak, illegally, into, say, Mexico, what rights would we feel we have the right to demand? Personally, I wouldn't feel I were entitled to anything more than I stated above. The situation should be no different here.

Since they ' build our schools and cook our food', if we sent them all packing, back home, could we still run every restaurant, cleaning operation and all the dirty work we expect done, that our youth or population never even THINKS themselves lowly enough of doing? In other words, are we lying to ourselves about our plight and we actually need illegals?

First, the solution is not to 'send them all packing'. The preference would be to have them legally change their immigration status. They are illegal immigrants...the problem is not they're here, but that they're here illegally. That should be the focus of any proposed actions. However, given that...no, we don't need illegals. Our co