Full Version: Judge Blocks Exit Exam
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060513/ap_on_...DltBHNlYwM3MTY-
A California Judge blocked an exit exam that California Students would be required to take in order to graduate. This is another example of the court system interfering with the efforts of the Government to actually improve the education system in America. One of the plaintiffs said that "nobody would be hurt if I got my diploma." I disagree with her right there. Suppose for a moment that many students got easy diplomas while other students had to study hard. Will the employers take the time to tell the good diplomas from the bad diplomas? No, they'll simply require more experience and more education background in order for an employee to get that interview.
The Plaintiffs also said that the tests discriminate against poor people. Yes, anybody living in a high crime area will have less time to study. But the solution there is to clean up the neighborhood, not water down the education and give people counterfeit diplomas. A paper diploma by itself will not cure poverty.
A Final Exit Exam can prove that a High School Graduate can do basic math, read and write at a High School level. Standardized Tests can help measure the quality of education that a person recieves. The Education system in America for too long has focused on Quantity rather than Quality. What this means is that a person can get a Bachelors Degree, a Masters Degree, and pursue a Ph.D and still end up working at Burger King or driving Taxi cabs. That has to change.
So, the question for debate is
Do States have the right to require exit exams from High School seniors?
A California Judge blocked an exit exam that California Students would be required to take in order to graduate. This is another example of the court system interfering with the efforts of the Government to actually improve the education system in America. One of the plaintiffs said that "nobody would be hurt if I got my diploma." I disagree with her right there. Suppose for a moment that many students got easy diplomas while other students had to study hard. Will the employers take the time to tell the good diplomas from the bad diplomas? No, they'll simply require more experience and more education background in order for an employee to get that interview.
The Plaintiffs also said that the tests discriminate against poor people. Yes, anybody living in a high crime area will have less time to study. But the solution there is to clean up the neighborhood, not water down the education and give people counterfeit diplomas. A paper diploma by itself will not cure poverty.
A Final Exit Exam can prove that a High School Graduate can do basic math, read and write at a High School level. Standardized Tests can help measure the quality of education that a person recieves. The Education system in America for too long has focused on Quantity rather than Quality. What this means is that a person can get a Bachelors Degree, a Masters Degree, and pursue a Ph.D and still end up working at Burger King or driving Taxi cabs. That has to change.
So, the question for debate is
Do States have the right to require exit exams from High School seniors?
Well, it is a loaded question of course 
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Anyone that writes tests, or heck, has even taken Psych 101 knows that thre is a very, very big problem with writing 'standarized tests"- you see, what are they testing for? Testing for actual knowledge- or, the ability to take standarized tests? Why does other countries, with much higher literacy and education scores than our own, avoid standarized tests? Do they know something we don't?
It is NOT that there is a RIGHT to these very silly "exit exams"- it is that they have very serious flaws that affects a young persons life negatively- and this right equal and fair treatment by the state trumps the states rights to be stupid.
You mentioned quality- so, what you are advocating in state exit exams IS NOT quality of education at all- and, really, the better question, or an additional question would be- if you want real debate on the issue at all is- are exit exams effective in assuring a quality education has been achieved by the student?
- Anyone that writes tests, or heck, has even taken Psych 101 knows that thre is a very, very big problem with writing 'standarized tests"- you see, what are they testing for? Testing for actual knowledge- or, the ability to take standarized tests? Why does other countries, with much higher literacy and education scores than our own, avoid standarized tests? Do they know something we don't?
It is NOT that there is a RIGHT to these very silly "exit exams"- it is that they have very serious flaws that affects a young persons life negatively- and this right equal and fair treatment by the state trumps the states rights to be stupid.
You mentioned quality- so, what you are advocating in state exit exams IS NOT quality of education at all- and, really, the better question, or an additional question would be- if you want real debate on the issue at all is- are exit exams effective in assuring a quality education has been achieved by the student?
Skeeteses,
Your link is not working, so I’ve supplied one that does work.
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file...MNGSVIO7NI1.DTL
Do States have the right to require exit exams from High School seniors?
I think you have misrepresented the judge’s ruling, though not intentionally. He did not say that the state could not require exit exams. What he did say was that the tests were unfair to students in over-crowded, substandard schools, who had not had an equal opportunity to learn the material on the test.
Your link is not working, so I’ve supplied one that does work.
QUOTE
The suit said that students who have repeatedly failed the test -- especially English learners -- have not had a fair opportunity to learn the material because they are more likely to attend overcrowded schools and have teachers without proper credentials.
In his tentative ruling, Freedman said he was inclined to agree with that argument but will give the state's lawyers a chance to persuade him to change his opinion.
However, Freedman may have signaled a reluctance to reverse himself when he asked lawyers on both sides to come prepared to talk about how conditions in the schools can be equalized.
In his tentative ruling, Freedman said he was inclined to agree with that argument but will give the state's lawyers a chance to persuade him to change his opinion.
However, Freedman may have signaled a reluctance to reverse himself when he asked lawyers on both sides to come prepared to talk about how conditions in the schools can be equalized.
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file...MNGSVIO7NI1.DTL
Do States have the right to require exit exams from High School seniors?
I think you have misrepresented the judge’s ruling, though not intentionally. He did not say that the state could not require exit exams. What he did say was that the tests were unfair to students in over-crowded, substandard schools, who had not had an equal opportunity to learn the material on the test.
I have had a difficult time getting to primary sources for this story. The secondary ones have a bit of that sensationalism to them that thrives in articles grounded more in perception and opinion rather than in fact.
My first reaction was that there must be something more valid in the claim or the ruling beyond the standard "activist judge usurps power" dismissal of this issue.
Knowing the state of public education in this country I also had the assumption that this test could not be too challenging if many high school students were going to pass it.
As I suspected this does not test 12th grade level minimum competency in a range of subjects, it tests math and english at well-below 12th grade level.
Also the test can be taken multiple times. And they only need to demonstrate that they can do something like making correct change manually 1 out of every 2 times. (If it is my cash register I would require a much higher rate
)
Judge Suspends 2006 H.S. Exit Exam
Here is a quote from a lawyer who brought this issue to the courts:
"I felt strongly that the state should not deprive a student of a diploma unless the state can say that every student has been fairly and properly prepared for that test," Gonzalez said. "There is overwhelming evidence that students throughout the state have not been taught the material on the test. And many students have been taught by teachers not credentialed in math and English."
Judge says California exit exam is unfair
As to the grounds of the complaint, I had a difficult time tracking that down, Here is a quote from the ruling here (and posted above by BoF) are the reasons.
Judge Suspends 2006 H.S. Exit Exam
Yet the discriminatory nature of the schools in economically challenged ares is that the schools are substandard. That because of their shortcomings children are being passed along without accomplishing basic skills, and that they are often being taught by unqualified instructors. The solution in this case is to toss out the test which accurately is identifying students who fail to meet a bare minimum qualification of knowledge to receive a high school diploma. The schools are failing these students by passing them even though they don't learn, and by apparently failing to provide an environment in which they will be taught these basic skills. But the solution is to recognize the shortcomings of the students but hand out diplomas anyway.
As for the state law mandating the testing, it seems to be well-supported.
Judge says California exit exam is unfair
I think the only question here that is valid is does the state have the right to implement a minimum requirement of competency before a high school diploma can be issued. This places a level of responsibility on school districts to make sure that graduates do more than show up enough to receive a diploma. And if I read this issue correctly, it is unfortunate that this is being held up.
The problems cited by the judge are systemic across America. A step in the right direction is to identify the schools and students that are receiving degrees even though they are multiple grade levels below 12th grade proficiency in two areas. These students should not be receiving degrees and the schools that are granting enough credits to these children to qualify for a diploma are turning out a substandard product and need to be held to account as well.
Disqualifying the test as discriminatory will not help a twenty year-old applying for a job. Because the type of discrimination that is being cited here is perfectly legal. No employer has to hire an unqualified applicant. The solution is to make the applicant qualified, not to make the employer hire the unqualified applicant.
To conclude, we need to stop watering down our educational standards. Diplomas are not a right and they have to be earned. The playing field is not level, but that does not mean that people who receive a substandard education have a right to a diploma.
My first reaction was that there must be something more valid in the claim or the ruling beyond the standard "activist judge usurps power" dismissal of this issue.
Knowing the state of public education in this country I also had the assumption that this test could not be too challenging if many high school students were going to pass it.
As I suspected this does not test 12th grade level minimum competency in a range of subjects, it tests math and english at well-below 12th grade level.
QUOTE
This year's 12th-graders are the first class to face the testing requirement, which includes a section of eighth-grade-level math and one of ninth- and 10th-grade-level English. To pass, students are required to correctly answer more than half the questions. They can take the test multiple times.
Also the test can be taken multiple times. And they only need to demonstrate that they can do something like making correct change manually 1 out of every 2 times. (If it is my cash register I would require a much higher rate
) Judge Suspends 2006 H.S. Exit Exam
Here is a quote from a lawyer who brought this issue to the courts:
QUOTE
"I felt strongly that the state should not deprive a student of a diploma unless the state can say that every student has been fairly and properly prepared for that test," Gonzalez said. "There is overwhelming evidence that students throughout the state have not been taught the material on the test. And many students have been taught by teachers not credentialed in math and English."
Judge says California exit exam is unfair
As to the grounds of the complaint, I had a difficult time tracking that down, Here is a quote from the ruling here (and posted above by BoF) are the reasons.
QUOTE
Alameda County Superior Court Judge Robert Freedman said in his ruling today that he was convinced by the plaintiffs' argument that the test was discriminatory.
"There is evidence in the record that shows that students in economically challenged communities have not had an equal opportunity to learn the materials tested on the (California High School Exit Examination)," Freedman wrote.
"There is evidence in the record that shows that students in economically challenged communities have not had an equal opportunity to learn the materials tested on the (California High School Exit Examination)," Freedman wrote.
Judge Suspends 2006 H.S. Exit Exam
Yet the discriminatory nature of the schools in economically challenged ares is that the schools are substandard. That because of their shortcomings children are being passed along without accomplishing basic skills, and that they are often being taught by unqualified instructors. The solution in this case is to toss out the test which accurately is identifying students who fail to meet a bare minimum qualification of knowledge to receive a high school diploma. The schools are failing these students by passing them even though they don't learn, and by apparently failing to provide an environment in which they will be taught these basic skills. But the solution is to recognize the shortcomings of the students but hand out diplomas anyway.
As for the state law mandating the testing, it seems to be well-supported.
QUOTE
California's high school exit exam also carries strong support among voters and the business community -- future employers of today's high school students -- who share O'Connell's view that a diploma should indicate a basic level of academic skill.
Judge says California exit exam is unfair
I think the only question here that is valid is does the state have the right to implement a minimum requirement of competency before a high school diploma can be issued. This places a level of responsibility on school districts to make sure that graduates do more than show up enough to receive a diploma. And if I read this issue correctly, it is unfortunate that this is being held up.
The problems cited by the judge are systemic across America. A step in the right direction is to identify the schools and students that are receiving degrees even though they are multiple grade levels below 12th grade proficiency in two areas. These students should not be receiving degrees and the schools that are granting enough credits to these children to qualify for a diploma are turning out a substandard product and need to be held to account as well.
Disqualifying the test as discriminatory will not help a twenty year-old applying for a job. Because the type of discrimination that is being cited here is perfectly legal. No employer has to hire an unqualified applicant. The solution is to make the applicant qualified, not to make the employer hire the unqualified applicant.
To conclude, we need to stop watering down our educational standards. Diplomas are not a right and they have to be earned. The playing field is not level, but that does not mean that people who receive a substandard education have a right to a diploma.
QUOTE(Eeyore @ May 14 2006, 08:10 AM)
I have had a difficult time getting to primary sources for this story. The secondary ones have a bit of that sensationalism to them that thrives in articles grounded more in perception and opinion rather than in fact.
Primary sources, right on. The Alameda County Court's website has the judge's ruling on this case. Search for JCCP004468. No text or PDF is available, but you can read it as TIFF images (may require QuickTime plug-in), or in a Java document viewer.
The state has released questions for the English and math sections of the CAHSEE. You can also take a practice test online.
Do States have the right to require exit exams from High School seniors?
I would say yes. The judge sort of agrees:
QUOTE(Judge Robert Freedman)
Plaintiffs are not challenging CAHSEE itself, and are not seeking to enjoin the continued administration of the tests, or efforts to prepare students state wide to be able to pass it. They seek only to delay the implementation of the diploma condition, and only as it affects this year's graduating class.
There is no persuasive credible evidence of harm flowing to anyone from granting the requested relief. Colleges and universities, and prospective employers each are still free to make appropriate decisions to offer or decline admission or offer employment based on a full range of factors.
I think Judge Freedman goes wrong in a couple of places. First, he essentially makes receipt of a diploma into a fundamental constitutional right:
QUOTE
Access to a public education is a fundamental personal interest in California, as set forth in Article IX, Section 5 of the California Constitution. The unique importance of public education in California requires careful scrutiny of state interference with basic educational rights.
Plaintiffs, and the class they represent, have met all the requirements that would, before now, have entitled them to a diploma of graduation. They now face the prospect of having the final fruits of those substatial efforts withheld. In the Court's view, and education itself and the certification of that education with its attendant benefits, is a distinction without a difference. A diploma can fairly be characterized as an "educational opportunity," the denial of which is subject to strict scrutiny.
The judge is putting a large burden on the State here. Later, he makes it clear that he will not be satisfied by even heroic efforts by the State to manage this burden:
QUOTE
Finally, and perhaps most significantly, in the fall of 2005, legislation was enacted allocating $20 million to be used for "intensive instruction and services" for members of the Class of 2006, calling for allocating $600 per senior who had not yet passed one or both parts of the exit exam. When these funds were distributed, however, they were allocated only to schools with a failure rate of 28% or above. As a result, 166 entire school districts, and nearly half of the seniors who had not passed the exit exam as of the start of the current academic year, did not receive an allocation from this $20 million. There is also evidence that some schools that did receive an allocation have not had time to use those funds to benefit the Class of 2006. Plaintiffs are likely to prevail on their claim that the State's arbitrary distribution of the $20 million allocated for remediation purposes contstitutes an additional violation of the equal protection clause.
(Emphases added.) The judge is complaining that the State's allocation of $20 million to the worst-performing schools, targeting the majority of those who failed the test, is arbitrary. He doesn't say how the allocation could be improved, and I find it hard to imagine any allocation that he wouldn't find "arbitrary," and therefore unconstitutional. This is a pretty clear example of activist judging. Judge Freedman is substituting his judgment for the legislature's, and giving us no reason to think his judgment is superior.
In a more reasonable moment, the judge does allow the State to put a special annotation on the diplomas of the 90% of students who managed to pass the CAHSEE. Presumably, colleges and employers could look for this "gold star" as one of the "full range of factors" when making their "appropriate decisions." I half-expect the plaintiffs to appeal this part of the ruling.
Edit: fix typos.
QUOTE
So, the question for debate is
Do States have the right to require exit exams from High School seniors?
Do States have the right to require exit exams from High School seniors?
Yes and any parent who has a child that fails this test year after year should demand an explanation as to WHY. Schools that cannot teach the basics should be closed or the parents give vouchers to go elsewhere. If we allow states or cities to ignore the criteria and just hand out more worthless diplomas we do nothing but perpetuate the problems.
We have one of the worst school systems in the world, esp. for the poor, and we need to DO something about it. The exams are defiantly needed and should continue.
QUOTE(Ted @ May 19 2006, 10:10 AM)
We have one of the worst school systems in the world, esp. for the poor, and we need to DO something about it. The exams are defiantly needed and should continue.
I think you are wrong. What would vouchers sending kids to private and religious schools do? Over time it would transfer the problems of public education to private institutions. Would this insure improvement? I really don't think so.
The problem with testing is that districts, like those in Texas, become so obsessed with test that they spend the entire school year prepping students for what's on the test. Apparently California hasn't been doing this, particularly in poorer schools.
Your statement on "worst school system in the world" is painting with a broad brush. We actually have 50 different state school systems with innumerable independent school district within those states. The quality varies.
This link show the fragmentation of American education into thousands of school districts.
http://proximityone.com/sdbnd04.htm
Exit exams are based on "the Texas lie"-
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2000/aug2000/tex-a21.shtml
High stakes testing is part of a well worked-out strategy for dismantling public education. Bush plans to use such tests to gut the federal funds that provide money for schools with large numbers of low-income students. Federal money to schools determined as failing would be slashed and parents given vouchers to cover a part of tuition costs at private or religious schools. Under this plan, most disadvantaged children would remain in crumbling public schools or be forced out of school altogether.
Several states, including Texas, have already used publicly funded charter schools to drain state and local money from the public school system. Both Bush and Gore call for an expansion of charter schools. Charter schools have become a major conduit relied on by for-profit education companies to develop an education market and to make profit from government funds intended for education.
Exit exam and all the politics with it are a farce, and an attempt to use public funds to enrichen CEO type preachers and the schools they invent.
I mean- c'mon, if you base an entire program on lie- and then make it nationwide- there is going to be major flaws on an even larger scale, correct?
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2000/aug2000/tex-a21.shtml
High stakes testing is part of a well worked-out strategy for dismantling public education. Bush plans to use such tests to gut the federal funds that provide money for schools with large numbers of low-income students. Federal money to schools determined as failing would be slashed and parents given vouchers to cover a part of tuition costs at private or religious schools. Under this plan, most disadvantaged children would remain in crumbling public schools or be forced out of school altogether.
Several states, including Texas, have already used publicly funded charter schools to drain state and local money from the public school system. Both Bush and Gore call for an expansion of charter schools. Charter schools have become a major conduit relied on by for-profit education companies to develop an education market and to make profit from government funds intended for education.
Exit exam and all the politics with it are a farce, and an attempt to use public funds to enrichen CEO type preachers and the schools they invent.
I mean- c'mon, if you base an entire program on lie- and then make it nationwide- there is going to be major flaws on an even larger scale, correct?
QUOTE(BOF)
I think you are wrong. What would vouchers sending kids to private and religious schools do? Over time it would transfer the problems of public education to private institutions. Would this insure improvement? I really don't think so.
Yes, School Vouchers would definately transfer the problem of public schools over to the Private Schools. Which is exactly why the State Governments must improve the Public Schools! The Standardized Exit Exams should stay.
CR did bring up a point about the possibility of exit exams becoming corrupted or badley written. The solution is for the communities to have input into what goes onto the test. Standardized tests means that there is a Standard that every High School Graduate should be held to. To make these standards fair, the State Governments must get peer reviewed by a large panel of College Educated adults, Business people, and Scholars. The problem with the Texas system is that there's not enough democratic input. Therefore, its possible for Texas to come up with a Science book teaching Creationism as valid alternative to Evolution. But I won't go into that here. That's just an example of what can happen when a very small group of people make Educational Decisions for everyone else.
You have hit on the real problem of our educational system, and it has nothing to do with exit exams- it is that America treats it's schools as free day care, NOT education. Those right wing christiany types won't show to a school board meeting unless there is homosexuality or evolution involved - we keep trying to test teachers, students yadda yadda, and never look to WHY other countries do so much better in education- and it all points back to the parents IMHO. Unless there is some controversial subject, like, oh, exit exams for disabled kids, or creationism vs science etc- parents are completely hands off (as a group) in schools. How about every parent that complains about thier kid's school- they have to do 4 hours a week of community service in the school?
Exit exams do no good to no person- and it has been proven in Texas, where the big GW lie began!
I usually go challenge any high school educated person to go take one of those exams- our republican legislature did once- and every republican failed, and most of the dems- of course, the minority race dems did very well LOL - I challenge anyone on this board, with the possible exception of Wertz (the tireless researcher) to pass those exit exams!
Valuable resources are being diverted to this stupidity instead of actually combating the problems.
- we keep trying to test teachers, students yadda yadda, and never look to WHY other countries do so much better in education- and it all points back to the parents IMHO. Unless there is some controversial subject, like, oh, exit exams for disabled kids, or creationism vs science etc- parents are completely hands off (as a group) in schools. How about every parent that complains about thier kid's school- they have to do 4 hours a week of community service in the school? Exit exams do no good to no person- and it has been proven in Texas, where the big GW lie began!
I usually go challenge any high school educated person to go take one of those exams- our republican legislature did once- and every republican failed, and most of the dems- of course, the minority race dems did very well LOL
- I challenge anyone on this board, with the possible exception of Wertz (the tireless researcher) to pass those exit exams! Valuable resources are being diverted to this stupidity instead of actually combating the problems.
QUOTE(CruisingRam @ May 20 2006, 09:12 AM)
Exit exams do no good to no person- and it has been proven in Texas, where the big GW lie began!
I usually go challenge any high school educated person to go take one of those exams- our republican legislature did once- and every republican failed, and most of the dems- of course, the minority race dems did very well LOL thumbsup.gif - I challenge anyone on this board, with the possible exception of Wertz (the tireless researcher) to pass those exit exams!
I usually go challenge any high school educated person to go take one of those exams- our republican legislature did once- and every republican failed, and most of the dems- of course, the minority race dems did very well LOL thumbsup.gif - I challenge anyone on this board, with the possible exception of Wertz (the tireless researcher) to pass those exit exams!
CR I think you confuse and oversimplify this issue. This exam is not a Texas exam and usually the flaws pointed out in the California system (in terms of educational philosophy in this case) are on a different side of the spectrum from the Texas system flaws.
I'm not sure you've looked into this particular issue very carefully and you have dismissed the California exit exam based on an unsubstantiated (in terms of specific evidence in your post) bit of Bush bashing. I agree that there is a republican educational agenda to prove that public schools are failing as they presently exist in order to get funding for voucher programs. But I don't see that at work in this particular case.
However, do you really want to give diplomas to young men and women that cannot demonstrate 50% proficiency in reading in math based on no higher than 10th grade level evaluation?
Of course, it is not very possible to refute blanket statements and generalizations, and they are fun to throw out in place of documented positions that directly relate to the topic of the thread.
Okay-
What good are exit exams going to do? Is it going to educate the student better? I certainly don't see studying for exit exams as something that is going to improve the educational system? Do you? It certainly is not going to educate the very kids you are talking about- are they?
What good are exit exams going to do? Is it going to educate the student better? I certainly don't see studying for exit exams as something that is going to improve the educational system? Do you? It certainly is not going to educate the very kids you are talking about- are they?
This exit exam is going to stop people from holding high school diplomas who have not demonstrated an understanding of basic math and reading skills.
The students who fail these tests have failed themselves, and they have been failed by their teachers, parents, and their schools. But I think California has a right to not give out a state sanctioned diploma without a demonstrate competency.
This is like the old question from the 1980s, "Why can't Johnny read?" Should a person who can't read get a high school diploma?
I have grave misgivings with certain standardized tests, but this is a test that is a minimum standard and it serves as a protection from the practice of just passing along students because they have attended enough day of school to get promoted to the next level and through the system with a diploma.
The students who fail these tests have failed themselves, and they have been failed by their teachers, parents, and their schools. But I think California has a right to not give out a state sanctioned diploma without a demonstrate competency.
This is like the old question from the 1980s, "Why can't Johnny read?" Should a person who can't read get a high school diploma?
I have grave misgivings with certain standardized tests, but this is a test that is a minimum standard and it serves as a protection from the practice of just passing along students because they have attended enough day of school to get promoted to the next level and through the system with a diploma.
I for the life of me can't understand how these tests are necessary. When I went to high school, I required x number of credits to graduate (30 if I remember correctly) with certain requirements for core subjects like english, math and the arts. If I didn't pass grade 12 english (which had an end-of-year exam) I wouldn't have a grade 12 english credit, and wouldn't meet my degree requirement. Assuming that each class was administered properly, then there was no way I could reach the end of my studies without a basic education, and there would be no need for a standardized exit test.
QUOTE(Ultimatejoe @ May 20 2006, 11:27 AM)
. Assuming that each class was administered properly, then there was no way I could reach the end of my studies without a basic education, and there would be no need for a standardized exit test.
It appears to me that you've answered your own question. Add to the problems of poorly administered classes in difficult educational environments the fact that in many places it requires parental consent to have a child held back a grade regardless of their academic performance (with minimum attendance) and then some mechanism is required to find out if junior can actually read the diploma you hand him on graduation day.
In no country with a higher educated population than us do they use this tool that I am aware of- most have far less testing, with comprehensive exams per the subject.
I stand by this that exit exam testing is a boon for corporate test writers, and have absolutely no effect whatsoever on increasing student literacy, or making "johnny read"- there is no correlation or causation, or countries with better literacy rates would be using them.
I also stand very much by lack of responsibility taken by parents in this country. That is THE common denominator I have seen in every country I have visited, regardless of economic status of those countries, and it is a very easily identified and stark difference between the US and other developed, and many third world countries.
Exit exams are LESS than useless, they are punitive.
I stand by this that exit exam testing is a boon for corporate test writers, and have absolutely no effect whatsoever on increasing student literacy, or making "johnny read"- there is no correlation or causation, or countries with better literacy rates would be using them.
I also stand very much by lack of responsibility taken by parents in this country. That is THE common denominator I have seen in every country I have visited, regardless of economic status of those countries, and it is a very easily identified and stark difference between the US and other developed, and many third world countries.
Exit exams are LESS than useless, they are punitive.
QUOTE
BoF
I think you are wrong. What would vouchers sending kids to private and religious schools do? Over time it would transfer the problems of public education to private institutions. Would this insure improvement? I really don't think so.
The problem with testing is that districts, like those in Texas, become so obsessed with test that they spend the entire school year prepping students for what's on the test. Apparently California hasn't been doing this, particularly in poorer schools.
Your statement on "worst school system in the world" is painting with a broad brush. We actually have 50 different state school systems with innumerable independent school district within those states. The quality varies.
I think you are wrong. What would vouchers sending kids to private and religious schools do? Over time it would transfer the problems of public education to private institutions. Would this insure improvement? I really don't think so.
The problem with testing is that districts, like those in Texas, become so obsessed with test that they spend the entire school year prepping students for what's on the test. Apparently California hasn't been doing this, particularly in poorer schools.
Your statement on "worst school system in the world" is painting with a broad brush. We actually have 50 different state school systems with innumerable independent school district within those states. The quality varies.
The issue is giving parents a CHOICE. Competition never fails to improve a product or service. Bad schools need to go OUT of business. New schools would do better or they would go out of business as well. But another key is to change the “rules”. Today schools are forced to keep violent, uncooperative kids. They need to be allowed to get them out so the kids who want to learn can.
Testing is required to verify that kids are learning. You apparently have never seen on – I have 3 young kids and have. And schools SHOULD prepare kids for the test because the test is about what they need to KNOW. BY all means teach for the TEST.
Here are the international stats on US education. Our worst schools are inner city but on average we are mediocre at best.
Jay Greene, author of "Education Myths," points out that "If money were the solution, the problem would already be solved … We've doubled per pupil spending, adjusting for inflation, over the last 30 years, and yet schools aren't better."
He's absolutely right. National graduation rates and achievement scores are flat, while spending on education has increased more than 100 percent since 1971. More money hasn't helped American kids.
At age 10, American students take an international test and score well above the international average. But by age 15, when students from 40 countries are tested, the Americans place 25th.
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Stossel/story?id=1500338
Our education quality in math and the pure sciences (physics, chemistry, etc.) must improve - - by huge amounts. We are more than ever before in a global economy that is also high tech. Our young will grow up to compete for living standards and national security with more foreign students than any prior generation. The fact they score below all others in math & science could be labeled 'child abuse,' and a threat to their nation. Our goal must be the best education system in the world for math and science, bar none, and without any doubt! We are sadly lagging - way behind other nations. The OECD (Paris based Organization of Economic Cooperation & Development) said in its report, "US schools provide a mediocre education, at best." And, our nation owes more of our national assets each year to foreigners.
OECD's Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA) - 2003 MATH - 15 yr. old students
Released late 2004 were the results of the "Programme for International Student Assessment" Math exam series for 15- year old students from over 30 nations.
This test series, abbreviated as PISA, was sponsored by the Paris-based Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD).
More than 30 nations participated, including all OECD nations plus China and Hong Kong and a few others.
The chart at the right shows the mean math test scores of each nation.
The USA score in the chart is in red, showing 28 nations scored higher than did 15-year old students from America. America's position in this chart is 29th out of 34 nations.
In its report the OECD cited that the United States of America's score placed it in a group called "signficantly below average."
http://mwhodges.home.att.net/new_96_report.htm
I'm not sure I follow you Ted. It is true that American schools are suffering, and it is also true that American education funding has increased steadily since the 1970's. Those are both statements based on facts. However, you have tied them to other assertions without any clear evidence or logic...
I've yet to see a single study or proof that testing improves education. I can't recall ever hearing of one being published or released. The countries that do better on global educational indexes all have different educational systems and competition is not a universal characteristic, and neither is standardized testing.
What is interesting is that there is a massive body of evidence to suggest that standardized testing is bad for education, and that teaching to the test (so to speak) is a detriment. And nowhere in the literature is competition hailed as a recipe for fostering improving public education. From From Compliance to Commitment: The Need for Constituent Discourse in Implementing Testing Policy[1]:
The same study has this to say on the subject of evaluating teacher performance:
For some international perspective, since those comparisons are all the rage; here is something from What’s at Stake in High-Stakes Testing: Teachers and Parents Speak Out[2]:
From Accountability Mandates and the Implementation of Title I Schoolwide Programs: A Comparison of Three Urban Districts[3]:
I mean, call me crazy for asking... but does anyone have any evidence that standardized testing or exit testing improves education? Anyone?
1: Debart, Robert and Patricia K. Kubow. "From Compliance to Commitment: The Need for Constituent Discourse in Implementing Testing Policy." Educational Policy. vol. 16, no. 3, pp. 387-405, July 2002
2: Barksdale-ladd, Mary Alice and Karen F. Thomas. "What’s at Stake in High-Stakes Testing: Teachers and Parents Speak Out." Journal Of Teacher Education. vol. 51, no. 5, pp. 384-397, November 2000
3: "Accountability Mandates and the Implementation of Title I Schoolwide Programs:
A Comparison of Three Urban Districts." Educational Administration Quarterly. Vol. 37, No. 4 (October 2001) 503-532
QUOTE
Competition never fails to improve a product or service... And schools SHOULD prepare kids for the test because the test is about what they need to KNOW. BY all means teach for the TEST...
I've yet to see a single study or proof that testing improves education. I can't recall ever hearing of one being published or released. The countries that do better on global educational indexes all have different educational systems and competition is not a universal characteristic, and neither is standardized testing.
What is interesting is that there is a massive body of evidence to suggest that standardized testing is bad for education, and that teaching to the test (so to speak) is a detriment. And nowhere in the literature is competition hailed as a recipe for fostering improving public education. From From Compliance to Commitment: The Need for Constituent Discourse in Implementing Testing Policy[1]:
QUOTE
Another way in which this developmental approach to preparing students
for the eventuality of demonstrating their proficiency could be fostered would be through greater collaboration among districts and between districts. However, there is little chance of this happening as long as normative comparisons fan the flames of competition.
...
The whole concept of reporting proficiency scores as normative statistics to be used for comparison of teaching ability, school district accomplishment, and parental support is a zero-sum game that is destined to build adversarial relationships among teachers and districts. The prospect of humiliation simply leads to defensive rationalization instead of constructive educational improvement.
for the eventuality of demonstrating their proficiency could be fostered would be through greater collaboration among districts and between districts. However, there is little chance of this happening as long as normative comparisons fan the flames of competition.
...
The whole concept of reporting proficiency scores as normative statistics to be used for comparison of teaching ability, school district accomplishment, and parental support is a zero-sum game that is destined to build adversarial relationships among teachers and districts. The prospect of humiliation simply leads to defensive rationalization instead of constructive educational improvement.
The same study has this to say on the subject of evaluating teacher performance:
QUOTE
Our research found that even in high-achieving districts such as the one studied herein, high-stakes testing places high levels of stress on teachers that adversely affects their morale. This is corroborated by a study done in North Carolina by Jones et al. (1999), who found that:
even teachers whose students do well on the test experience anxiety. In schools where students perform well, there is more pressure to keep the scores high or to raise them from the previous year. Teachers find this particularly stressful because they do not feel that they directly control the characteristics of the students assigned to them or how well students will do on the test. (p. 202)
even teachers whose students do well on the test experience anxiety. In schools where students perform well, there is more pressure to keep the scores high or to raise them from the previous year. Teachers find this particularly stressful because they do not feel that they directly control the characteristics of the students assigned to them or how well students will do on the test. (p. 202)
For some international perspective, since those comparisons are all the rage; here is something from What’s at Stake in High-Stakes Testing: Teachers and Parents Speak Out[2]:
QUOTE
Because America’s literacy and math scores are frequently compared internationally and Japan’s elementary schools’ high-achieving young students have been much touted, it is interesting to note that Lewis (1995) reports that Japanese teachers, through their union, simply refused to administer standardized tests
because of their destructive educational effects on young learners. Until students get to high school, there are no such tests in Japanese schools. It appears that the teachers in this study, along with teacher educators, know of the deleterious effects state testing can have on young learners, and those in the business of state testing need to be aware of these effects. It is patently clear from the teachers in this study
that the opposition to standardized testing is not motivated by fear of being held accountable; rather it is motivated by the principled notion that good teaching is not being delivered because teachers and children are being held accountable for what these teachers perceive as bad practices (i.e., teaching to the test through isolated skill and drill) to render high test scores.
because of their destructive educational effects on young learners. Until students get to high school, there are no such tests in Japanese schools. It appears that the teachers in this study, along with teacher educators, know of the deleterious effects state testing can have on young learners, and those in the business of state testing need to be aware of these effects. It is patently clear from the teachers in this study
that the opposition to standardized testing is not motivated by fear of being held accountable; rather it is motivated by the principled notion that good teaching is not being delivered because teachers and children are being held accountable for what these teachers perceive as bad practices (i.e., teaching to the test through isolated skill and drill) to render high test scores.
From Accountability Mandates and the Implementation of Title I Schoolwide Programs: A Comparison of Three Urban Districts[3]:
QUOTE
Instead, this research suggests that a two-tiered system may be developing
where poorly performing schools differ from their higher performing counterparts in how they use Title I funding and design schoolwide programs. Poorly performing schools, which were under considerable pressure to improve test scores, adopted remediation strategies targeted on particular students, grades, or subjects to accommodate the accountability mandates. In schools under less pressure to improve test scores, administrators added opportunities for students to receive additional instruction or found ways to increase instructional time. Our concern is that low-performing schools may further stratify low-performing students by placing them into remediation classes and, in other instances, pull resources away from the most needy students by focusing on students most likely to improve schoolwide achievement test scores.
where poorly performing schools differ from their higher performing counterparts in how they use Title I funding and design schoolwide programs. Poorly performing schools, which were under considerable pressure to improve test scores, adopted remediation strategies targeted on particular students, grades, or subjects to accommodate the accountability mandates. In schools under less pressure to improve test scores, administrators added opportunities for students to receive additional instruction or found ways to increase instructional time. Our concern is that low-performing schools may further stratify low-performing students by placing them into remediation classes and, in other instances, pull resources away from the most needy students by focusing on students most likely to improve schoolwide achievement test scores.
I mean, call me crazy for asking... but does anyone have any evidence that standardized testing or exit testing improves education? Anyone?
1: Debart, Robert and Patricia K. Kubow. "From Compliance to Commitment: The Need for Constituent Discourse in Implementing Testing Policy." Educational Policy. vol. 16, no. 3, pp. 387-405, July 2002
2: Barksdale-ladd, Mary Alice and Karen F. Thomas. "What’s at Stake in High-Stakes Testing: Teachers and Parents Speak Out." Journal Of Teacher Education. vol. 51, no. 5, pp. 384-397, November 2000
3: "Accountability Mandates and the Implementation of Title I Schoolwide Programs:
A Comparison of Three Urban Districts." Educational Administration Quarterly. Vol. 37, No. 4 (October 2001) 503-532
I wonder if we take out the standardized from the term standardized testing if we still look down on it.
I find, as an educator, that testing and grades are the prime motivating factors for my student. Often not as adequate as I would have hoped, but the strongest motivation i have in my toolbox.
I suspect that all of the people on this board have been involved in school. Didn;t you do some of your most rigorous work preparing for tests? How much learning did you do when heir wasn't an assessment tool coming?
There are studies that verify testing enhances learning.
link
An articleabout testing in general.
Here is another article.
Test Enhanced Learning
Now I have a question in response.
Why is there so much resistance to the idea of a basic skills test here on
?
This test is not supposed to challenge someone who has mastered a twelfth grade level of learning. It is meant to discover someone who has reached graduation without a tenth or below grade level mastery of basic skill. I hope that a graduate from a high school has a much greater level of mastery of a much broader spectrum of knowledge when he collects his diploma. This test is available for retaking and funds are earmarked to help students reach this pathetically basic achievement level.
This is not a debate about the value of standardized testing in measuring students in relation to all other students. It is a debate about a basic standards test. Can Johnny and Janie read and make change from a register that does not provide the answer or automatically spill out the right change?
Does a state have a right to guarantee a minimum educational standard?
Has California set its standards unreasonably high?
( I had a hilarious amount of typos in this post as I ranted from my soap box!
)
I find, as an educator, that testing and grades are the prime motivating factors for my student. Often not as adequate as I would have hoped, but the strongest motivation i have in my toolbox.
I suspect that all of the people on this board have been involved in school. Didn;t you do some of your most rigorous work preparing for tests? How much learning did you do when heir wasn't an assessment tool coming?
There are studies that verify testing enhances learning.
QUOTE
Carter, Samuel Casey. (June 1, 2001). No Excuses: Lessons from 21 High-Performing, High-Poverty Schools. Washington, DC: Heritage Foundation.
Lists seven common traits of high-performing, high-poverty schools: principals must be free; principals use measurable goals to establish a culture of achievement; master teachers bring out the best in a faculty; rigorous and regular testing leads to continuous student achievement; achievement is key to discipline; principals work actively with parents to make the home a center of learning; effort creates ability. One-page descriptions of twenty-one high-performing schools.
Lists seven common traits of high-performing, high-poverty schools: principals must be free; principals use measurable goals to establish a culture of achievement; master teachers bring out the best in a faculty; rigorous and regular testing leads to continuous student achievement; achievement is key to discipline; principals work actively with parents to make the home a center of learning; effort creates ability. One-page descriptions of twenty-one high-performing schools.
link
An articleabout testing in general.
Here is another article.
Test Enhanced Learning
Now I have a question in response.
Why is there so much resistance to the idea of a basic skills test here on
? This test is not supposed to challenge someone who has mastered a twelfth grade level of learning. It is meant to discover someone who has reached graduation without a tenth or below grade level mastery of basic skill. I hope that a graduate from a high school has a much greater level of mastery of a much broader spectrum of knowledge when he collects his diploma. This test is available for retaking and funds are earmarked to help students reach this pathetically basic achievement level.
This is not a debate about the value of standardized testing in measuring students in relation to all other students. It is a debate about a basic standards test. Can Johnny and Janie read and make change from a register that does not provide the answer or automatically spill out the right change?
Does a state have a right to guarantee a minimum educational standard?
Has California set its standards unreasonably high?
( I had a hilarious amount of typos in this post as I ranted from my soap box!
)
QUOTE
Why is there so much resistance to the idea of a basic skills test here on ?
? I think the problem lies in how the test is applied, Eeyore. Granted it was many moons ago, but I remember when the tests started in Texas when I attended high school. Instead of just taking a test at the end of the year to see where you were vs. the material you learned, the classes would shift to "teaching the test". During this time we were basically learning the mechanics of the standardized test and darn near being taught the questions ahead of time.
Especially with NCLB, using metrics like that and tying it to funding inevitably leads to folks teaching to the test instead of teaching the material. I know being an educator you likely have far more intimate knowledge of this than I, so I would be curious to see if you experienced this practice.
I don't have a problem with a test measuring someone's skill level at the conclusion of a school year. I certainly think it would be a useful result for the program coordinators and the guidance counselors of that school. My problem lies in how the state uses those results to measure the institutions themselves and seems to force the educators into a more utilitarian mode of survival versus actually trying to educate the students.
More specifically to the question, I do believe in the idea of Seniors being required to pass a minimum skills test in order to graduate. I'd love to know more about the students that failed the test in question, as I suspect there were far better reasons as to why they failed than the existence of a standardized test.
QUOTE(Doclotus @ May 23 2006, 09:32 AM)
QUOTE
Why is there so much resistance to the idea of a basic skills test here on ?
? I think the problem lies in how the test is applied, Eeyore. Granted it was many moons ago, but I remember when the tests started in Texas when I attended high school. Instead of just taking a test at the end of the year to see where you were vs. the material you learned, the classes would shift to "teaching the test". During this time we were basically learning the mechanics of the standardized test and darn near being taught the questions ahead of time.
Especially with NCLB, using metrics like that and tying it to funding inevitably leads to folks teaching to the test instead of teaching the material. I know being an educator you likely have far more intimate knowledge of this than I, so I would be curious to see if you experienced this practice.
I understand your criticism of standardized testing and teaching to the test. I share many of your concerns.
I don't see a clear parallel here in that in this case, teaching to the test would mean ensuring students have basic reding skills and a competency in basic arithmetic.
When tests are well designed and appropriately administered it makes perfect sense to teach to the test.
As far as my intimate knowledge of standardized testing, at my private school several standardized tests are given to our students but none of them have resulted in any pressure on my to teach to any test. We are, thankfully, not subjected to NCLB.
QUOTE
Ultimatejoe
I've yet to see a single study or proof that testing improves education. I can't recall ever hearing of one being published or released. The countries that do better on global educational indexes all have different educational systems and competition is not a universal characteristic, and neither is standardized testing.
What is interesting is that there is a massive body of evidence to suggest that standardized testing is bad for education, and that teaching to the test (so to speak) is a detriment. And nowhere in the literature is competition hailed as a recipe for fostering improving public education
I've yet to see a single study or proof that testing improves education. I can't recall ever hearing of one being published or released. The countries that do better on global educational indexes all have different educational systems and competition is not a universal characteristic, and neither is standardized testing.
What is interesting is that there is a massive body of evidence to suggest that standardized testing is bad for education, and that teaching to the test (so to speak) is a detriment. And nowhere in the literature is competition hailed as a recipe for fostering improving public education
You are correct. There is not yet “proof” that high stakes testing “works” but I maintain it is a useful tool in our efforts to improve education. Certainly you agree that there is nothing at all wrong with “testing” to judge students proficiency in a subject area. The problem as I see it is we have no national “standard” by which to judge student achievement in any subject. We KNOW how badly we are doing overall because we see that other nations do a better job. So how should we improve education without standards and tests that verify that students meet an agreed upon level of understanding in a subject area?
IMO the problem stems from the change from the “old system” used in the 50s and 60s (which included standard tests such as the IWOA series) where you were required to “pass” English and math each year or be held back to the new or current system that too often includes “social promotions”. Under this scheme students are moved up and eventually graduated without meeting any standard that all would agree makes them “proficient” in core subjects like reading and math.
And how, pray tell, would parents know this if a test to verify proficiency was not administered outside of the local schools control? We KNOW there are bad schools and mediocre schools where students get a poor education and still “graduate”. The standard tests will, as a minimum, let parents know there is a problem, and could force schools to look at ways to improve performance. I see no other way to do this do you?
As below. Tests used appropriately will prove useful. IMO independent testing will improve educational results over the long run.
The Appropriate Use of Tests
The measurement validity of a test is an extremely important concept. Measurement validity simply means whether a test provides useful information for a particular purpose. Said another way: Will the test accurately measure the test taker's knowledge in the content area being tested?
When tests are developed and used appropriately, they are among the most sound and objective knowledge and performance measures available
http://www.apa.org/pubinfo/testing.html
The short answer to the original question is yes. In my state (New York), you are required to pass a math and English (I think science and social studies are also required, but not entirely sure) regents to get a regents diploma. This becomes a de facto exit test, then, and I don't really see how different a regular exit test would be.
Just because states have this right doesn't necessarily make it the best option. Most of these tests may seem like a good idea, but they are often misused and poorly designed and executed. High stakes/standardized tests often test for retention under the guise of testing for comprehension. For example, a basic math test may ask you to divide a fraction by another fraction. To do that, you change the division sign to multiplication and flip the second fraction. Now, I was taught how to do that, but not why it was done that way. I didn't use a mathematical concept to solve the problem, I just used a memorized recipe. The worst are the history tests, though, which almost never test comprehension (with questions like "Which of these events occurred in 1066?" etc.). The multiple choice format of the tests is also a factor. A simple mistake and a radical lack of comprehension translate into the same thing: one question wrong. The process by which the student got to the answer is disregarded. As Doclotus pointed out, the tests are also misused to determine funding, which has led to the many stories of teachers and principals cheating by providing answers and schools and classes becoming test prep courses.
The validity of tests can be argued about for days, but the fact remains that we've been steadily increasing education funding over the past thirty to forty years and little has changed. The same way that money donated to third world countries with corrupt governments is wasted because the government invariably takes the money rather than giving it to the people, education funding is wasted because it is going into a system that does not educate. Exit tests will simply do little to nothing to change this.
Just because states have this right doesn't necessarily make it the best option. Most of these tests may seem like a good idea, but they are often misused and poorly designed and executed. High stakes/standardized tests often test for retention under the guise of testing for comprehension. For example, a basic math test may ask you to divide a fraction by another fraction. To do that, you change the division sign to multiplication and flip the second fraction. Now, I was taught how to do that, but not why it was done that way. I didn't use a mathematical concept to solve the problem, I just used a memorized recipe. The worst are the history tests, though, which almost never test comprehension (with questions like "Which of these events occurred in 1066?" etc.). The multiple choice format of the tests is also a factor. A simple mistake and a radical lack of comprehension translate into the same thing: one question wrong. The process by which the student got to the answer is disregarded. As Doclotus pointed out, the tests are also misused to determine funding, which has led to the many stories of teachers and principals cheating by providing answers and schools and classes becoming test prep courses.
The validity of tests can be argued about for days, but the fact remains that we've been steadily increasing education funding over the past thirty to forty years and little has changed. The same way that money donated to third world countries with corrupt governments is wasted because the government invariably takes the money rather than giving it to the people, education funding is wasted because it is going into a system that does not educate. Exit tests will simply do little to nothing to change this.
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