http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americas/05/...h.ap/index.html
I was filled with quite a bit of anger as I read one particular phrase.

My God what on earth is happening to these people at that American prison in Cuba? Four suicide attempts in one day? Here is where my seething anger sets in. If it were American war criminals being held my a foreign power who were attempting suicide to the tune of 4 per day, the media and the public would be a)outraged that the Americans are being held with no judicial agenda and without international procedures a.k.a. The Americans would be crying out about the Geneva Convention and human rights and the like, which is, actually, what the Iraqis and the Iranians and all other nations chosen as targets to the American regime are crying out, and b)mass speculation as to what was happening to their American soldiers and what circumstances could make men wish to commit suicide en masse. Don't anyone kid themselves about this. If it were reversed, CNN and FoxNews would parade 'experts' in the psychological community with their speculations (but of course they'll make it sound like fact) about what was making the American secret prisoners try to kill themselves en masse. Here's a typical exchange, what we could expect if things were reversed:

CNNatasha: And now we have with us an expert in psychological warfare so to speak, Guy Thomas is with us in studio. Hello Thomas.

Guy Thomas: Hello I'm pleased to be here.

CNNatasha: Ok Thomas. We know that our troops are being held at what's being labelled The Siberian Hilton..That's in the upper reaches of Russia, a cold place for anyone to be. No names of the American prisoners are released. No one knows where and when these American men and women were captured or the nature of the circumstances. The international community is outraged and are demanding to be told the who's what's and where's because, after all Guy Thomas, these are American men and women who deserve a fair trial and as long as the Russians continue to turn their noses against international law, it looks like there's no end in sight for whoever it is they are holding at the Siberian Hilton. What's your thoughts on this issue Thomas?

Guy Thomas: Yes thank you. This is a sad story for anyone who cherishes their freedom and democracy CNNatasha. It's reprehensible the fine American men and women should be subject to such totalitarian measures from a nation we consider and have long considered a friend and ally. Just give us a list of names. A list which states their accused crimes. A list stating where they were captured. Even an acknowledgement they are in fact being held there in Siberia, and that's the real unlawful part of this CNNatasha because Russia is a country which has condemened terrorism in the past and has and is working with America to root out the evils of terorism wherever it lies, dormant or not. They know the effects of horrific Islamic terrorist attacks. On the international judicial level, we are united and we have the same aims and goals: to make the world safe from the evils of terrorism. So for Russia to do this, to capture American men and women, then to spirit them off through many other complicit nations' airports, with those nations allowing that to happen...you know CNNatasha, they're just as complicit and guilty as the Russians are, with their enabling them to do this. Those nations have every opportunity to speak up and say 'we will not stand for this, this is illegal, these Americans are going to a place where they may be tortured', and to not speak up, to not act to stop it in any way...those nations are enablers, and we as Americans will not and should not sit still and allow this to happen and we need to root out and punish those who continue to flaunt international laws.

CNNatasha: Ok Guy Thomas we know that we know nothing about who the American prisoners are, but we do know, through some sources, that four American men, or women, as I said we don't know who is even in there, attempted to commit suicide in one day. 4 Americans tried to commit suicide. Guy Thomas you know something about being a prisoner who, being weaker than you turned out to be, has nothing to keep you going to the point where you despair to even wake up again. I'm refering to your time spent as a prisoner in what was dubbed the Hanoi Hilton. You were there for over three years, you withstood the most horrific of tortures, sometimes involving electrical torture of the genitals, so it's clear you know what you're talking about here. For starters, tell us of what kind of treatment you received from the North Vietnamese, what was your typical day like?

Guy Thomas: Pain and torture. That's the only way I can describe what went on in that prison, what we prisoners were subject to. Excruciating pain accompanied by a desire to end the pain in any way possible, and sometimes not even as quickly as possible as I know of one fellow, a fellow shot down the same day I was only two years later, and he felt he couldn't take it anymore. It just got to be too much. He caught a rat, there were plenty of those where we were confined to, and, thinking he could get the bubonic plague or rabies if he were cut and bit by it, would hold the rat down and smack the tail with his meal bowl while the rat bit down continuously on his hand. That's how desperate that man was to end his misery because CNNatasha, the pain and torture is something a man doesn't ever get used to, the pain it stays the same no matter how many times you're tortured.

CNNatasha: That is absolutely horrible and that rat certainly lays bare the utmost desperation some people have under those kinds of circumstances. Now let's look at the American prisoners being secretly held by the Russians. Never a nice thought I'm sure. If we know that 4 brave Americans have tried to commit suicide in one day, we need to look at what might make them desperate enough to end their lives. It's certainly not boredom though prison life can be mostly that. We need to remember that most if not all the American prisoners being held by the North Vietnamese were family men, married with children as they say. So their main focus was to see their loved ones again and most men's resolve came directly from that. While I was there I knew of a couple men who attempted suicide, and both failed. What their personal situations were I don't know so I can't say, but...

CNNatahsa: ...But we can assume they were subjected to horrible treatment in the form of torture, physical and mental...

Guy Thomas:..Absolutely. Make no mistake. The North Vietnamese were very good at the business of torture and they could be very sadistic at times.

CNNatasha: Which leads us back to today's situation. Is there anything the US can do to get some form of justice done, to get some sort of support happening to the point where we can get our men and women out of Siberia and back into their families arms? What do we do now?

Guy Thomas: Well, first off I must say to pray for them, pray for a decent outcome for our men and women who went to serve their country in order to aid a
Middle Eastern nation achieve democracy and a lasting peace. Then of course there's the proper course. To go to the UN and to garnish international support to condemn Russia for ignoring the rule of law all nations promised to adhere to. It's a foundation of the freedoms we know and love today and it came at a high cost. We must work to garnish the freedoms for our American boys and girls who went to another nation on a mission of mercy, a mission to aid the Iraqi people, the Iraqi people who were starved and murdered by a tyrant the world knows is evil to the core.

CNNatasha: God bless you sir.....


Don't you people all agree that four suicide attempts in one day belies something bad if not evil? That if Americans were being held at some secret Russian facility while their families know nothing about their loved ones, that the American public would be outraged at such treatment?

This isn't wholly surprising.

One third of all suicides are among inmates. The suicide rate is very high. link. California had 52 suicides among inmates in 2001--one per week. That was successful suicides, not suicide attempts (as these were in this instance--none of the detainees succeeded in killing themselves).

Why all of these occurred in one day is anyone's guess. Maybe they had a suicide pact? The three who tried to OD certainly seemed to.

Notice that the inmates attacked the guards who were trying to prevent the suicide? Even though suicide is automatic damnation to hell under Islam?

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/B9D...22D2EAFA3F9.htm



Ten attempts per year, no successes. This is actually very humane by prison standards.

Then the men at Gitmo trying to kill themselves are not true Muslims or they're treatment is making them wish themselves dead. The California inmate comparison fails because their situations are known. We can know everything about them. At Gitmo, nothing is known. No names, their alleged crimes, no lawyers, no trials, nothing at all. If it were reversed as I suggested, would you not react as I suggested? Or would you accept Americans being held by another nation without being told anything at all. Consider the North Vietnamese displayed their prisoners to the world. And they're the evil ones.

TruthMarch, you obviously put a lot of effort and creativity (not to mention verbiage) into your scenarios. The attempted suicide by rat-bite was marvelous. Was it based on actual events?



The North Vietnamese displayed their prisoners for propaganda purposes. When the cameras were off, and the celebrities had gone home, they went back to torturing them. The situation in Guantanamo is rather different:



Don't you people all agree that four suicide attempts in one day belies something bad if not evil? That if Americans were being held at some secret Russian facility while their families know nothing about their loved ones, that the American public would be outraged at such treatment?

I would indeed be angry at the Russian captors in the scenario you describe. And I think the U.S. military has held the Guantanamo detainees for too long without having a plan on what to do with them. Some have been released, of course, including some who had nothing to do with jihadist terrorism, and were probably turned in for a bounty:



Deplorable. On the other hand, the purpose of Gitmo was to deal with these folks:



Was KSM just bragging to this Al Jazeera reporter, or did he really have a large surplus of martyrdom-ready jihadis for the next 9/11? How many of them are now at Guantanamo? Who will be blamed if one of them is released and later kills a lot of innocent people?