Here's the story:

Link



To be debated:

1. Will this lead to even greater hostilities in the area?

2. How should the United States respond?

1. Will this lead to even greater hostilities in the area?
Yes it will lead to business as usual in that part of the world in my opinion.

2. How should the United States respond?
Israel and Palestine both posses far to many conservatives that will denounce any movements towards peace, as such it will be the monkey wrench to any such process, such is easily visible in my opinion. The U.S should be careful when dealing with either side as ultimately dealing with such people in my opinion leads to a national security risk, I favor the U.S simply leaving that part of the world alone and let it become a issue with the U.N. I know the U.N is not everyone’s favorite, but it would be better then for just one nation alone to support anything over there, any backlash would have to come against a coalition then rather then a single nation.

1. Will this lead to even greater hostilities in the area?
I see these events as an inevitability rather than any kind of catalyst or tipping point. The Palestinian government is a terrorist organization that exists only on the premise of hating Israel and wanting to destroy it. Coming from that position where the Jewish state isn't even recognized, peace is impossible. Israel cannot commit to peace if peace means the destruction of the Jewish state. I can't see any Palestinian government, composed of terrorist goons or otherwise, offering Israel anything without insisting on the right of return. That's just completely unacceptable to Israel.

On the other side a peace plan that creates two states without destroying Israel, is unacceptable to Hamas. Hamas needs the scapegoat of Israel to exist and maintain support.

2. How should the United States respond?
The United States should try to encourage movement towards peace but right now peace isn't anywhere in sight. In the meantime there isn't much we can do. On the Israeli side, it would be incredibly hypocritical for the US to tell Israel it doesn't have a right to defend itself from terrorists. And on the other side I highly doubt the United States has enough goodwill to convince Hamas of anything.

1. Will this lead to even greater hostilities in the area?
First off the link is wrong Israel has not yet entered Northern Gaza.

Greater hostility? That is like claiming Al-Qaidia will step up their attacks on the US. They are doing everything they can to make that happen already.

Now Fatah is claiming that it launched a Qassam rocket with a chemical warhead at Sderot.
Link

And the leaders of this group are:
Political - that great moderate Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas
Military - another moderate Marwan Barghouti

The only greater hostilities will be when Israel finally does something to end the thousands of rocket attacks on their cities.

2. How should the United States respond?
Stop being so mealy mouthed about terrorism against one of our true friends. The US suffered four terrorist attacks and launched two wars, removed two different governments, inflicted nearly 500,000 casualties. Israel endures 10-50 terrorist attacks a day for the last 12 years. One of the civilians kidnapped was found today with a bullet in his head - his crime that he was a Jew.

It's time the we should stop appeasing Arab terrorism and tell the world 'Guess they shouldn't do that' instead of 'We won't take sides'

1. Will this lead to even greater hostilities in the area?
What did you have in mind? Blasting your way in and arresting the elected government of another country seems like enough already.

2. How should the United States respond?
It has become almost a pointless question. The US simply backs the Israeli government and calls the other side intransigent or terrorists. We and the Israelis howled forever about the Palestinians not having a sufficiently democratic government. Well they got what they wished for, a democratically elected Hamas. Now one doesn't hear all about the joys of democracy any more. The Israelis with our inevitable backing are starving and crushing this one.

Of course Israel is "defending" itself. When you occupy and oppress other people I guess defending yourself goes with the territory. It's hard to imagine how an American public can be so dumbed down to defend a policy of occupation that has hurt us politically and financially so badly and yet we have for decades and there seems to be no end to it. With our additional quagmire in Iraq, arguably caused to a certain degree by our attempt to shore up Israel, I think the Al Qaeda folks and their terrorist ilk are confident we can be taken down. We are certainly a society in self-destruct mode.

1. Will this lead to even greater hostilities in the area?
No greater than what we've seen in the past/

2. How should the United States respond?
The US should sit on the sidelines in the physical sense, it's not our fight. But we should certainly condemn the 'elected Palestinian government'. I support a two state solution, but only if both states act like responsible governments. Thus far, the Palestinian government has failed to do so. The Hamas government wields the power to release the kidnapped IDF soldier and show that they are interested in peace. On top of the breach of peace by way of multiple kidnappings, the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade has claimed (unconfirmed by Israel) to have launched a rocket with a chemical warhead into Israel. Yes, the poor oppressed Palestinians.
The US need take no action, the IDF has this well in hand.

1. Will this lead to even greater hostilities in the area?

It should be noted that the Palestinians escalated the violence. They tunneled under the wall, attacked IDF forces (killing two and kidnapping a third) and returned to Gaza. In any other country this would be an act of war. The response (looking for the kidnapped soldier) is appropriate.

Add to that the dozens of rocket attacks on Sderot: Despite Ceasefire Talk, Five Kassams Explode in and Near Sderot



The Israelis must respond to attacks on their people and their land. To do otherwise is to disregard the basic responsibility of government: to protect the people from inside and outside aggressors.

2. How should the United States respond?

Stay out of Israel's way. Let them handle it. The US already has enough animosity from Arabs. We should issue a statement saying that sovereign states have a right to defend themselves and leave it at that.

What news reports have you been reading? The administration's response to this latest crisis has been the same as in the last several that have happened there: Bland calls urging both sides to "exercise restraint", accompanied by only cautious support for Israel's attempt to rescue one of its citizens. And until Hamas was elected, Washington was very careful to avoid using the word "terrorist" in regard to the Palestinian leadership, even though many of them objectively were. Certainly Fatah has its share of terrorists within its movement (al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade, anyone?).

Anyway, Amlord has it exactly right in terms of what we should do: stay out of it. We've messed things up worse over there by getting involved than we would have if we hadn't gotten involved.

So in response to a kidnapping any peace process is then non void and the idf can shell a refugee camp? How does anyone ever expect to see peace over there. I am sorry, this is a war of devoutly religious cultures and no one see themselves as doing anything evil or sinister, I have read to many ugly things done by both sides that in my opinion would constitute war crimes basically. I have no hope for peace in that area simply because the perceptions of both cultures allows war to easy, I do not think the u.s should endanger itself. Israel has a modern army that is more then capable of defending itself, is Israel wants to exist so bad that is no ones fault but there own, the plight of people in Palestine is a harder life then those in Israel have to endure, no one is Israel lives in refugee camps open to the whim of whatever danger the idf perceives from them, nor where they made to leave there homes for settlers. I do not agree with that Palestine does however, and i see the actions they make as pointless save to bring themselves back to this ignorant conflict.

Why does the U.S support this, as for ally, idf attack helicopters have shot up a navy ship of ours and Israeli nationals have stolen missile technology and sold it to china only to have the Israeli government slam us for locking that person up, that does not sound like a sound ally, as for Palestine, well they are not even technically a state and videos of them cheering when 9-11 occurred, the u.s has no place over there in my eyes.

What makes Israel a true friend? Stoking a huge lobby machine that yearly shakes us down for 6 billion in taxes and credits with the reward that we turn Israel's enemies into our own is hardly my idea of a true friendly relationship.


As long as we are subsidizing the Israeli side it is our fight.


Was this authorized by the Hamas government? Let's also not forget that for some folks, many folks around the world, Palestinians are fighting a war of liberation against an occupying power. Unlike us going into Iraq they have a real provocation.


What about 6 billion in annual gifts and credits to Israel does not spell "involved?"


Strikes me as a war against occupation with the occupier being heavily subsidized by the US.

Funny how the main point continues to get missed while we spin a detail here and a detail there to gain some partisan advantage. This is a conflict over an occupation. I don't like a lot of Hamas tactics anymore than any one here but negotiation hasn't worked. Hamas got into the act late in the game as Israel continued to increase its illegal occupation without terrorist resistance. The way the argument is conducted it's as if the whole question of American slavery was reduced to the behavior of Nat Turner and his band of murdering thugs. Hamas is using the tactics that folks who don't have Apache helicopters arguably might be inclined use. To take a line from Carville "It's the occupation st........"

Until this country takes responsibilty and really insists that UN Resolution 242 be implemented as part of a general peace agreement then I don't see any end to this insanity. We've got the money leverage and political clout but we won't use it.

That is nowhere even close to the truth. As a reminder, the PLO was formed in 1964 - THREE YEARS before the 1967 6 day war. Their charter called for the destruction of Israel and they immediately began to implement that plan. That had nothing to do with land.

And the Pals were in the Egyptian/Jordanian territories (it wasn't their land to begin with) because they were expelled from Jordan for the same behavior. Since occupying that territory, the Pals allowed anyone with weaponry to use the strategic areas surrounding Israel to launch an unprovoked attack. The Israelis pre-emptively struck and took that land because of it's strategic value to it's enemies.

The Palestinians do not recognize Israel's right to exist. Until that fundamental issue is resolved, no other argument - including the so-called "occupation" - can hold any water.

If you believe there is partisan gaming going on here, then you are every bit as culpable as the rest of us. The 'main point' you claim getting missed is this, everybody doesn't agree with you that this is some war against occupation. Some of us believe that the palestinians had numerous chances to act like human beings live with peace and a two state solution. Some of us believe that Israel has every right to exist, while Hamas does not. Some of us look at the history of the Ottoman Empire, Trans-Jordan, the Balfour Agreement and the birth of Israel as a nation and see a very different reality than what you do.
That doesn't mean you or we are explicitly wrong in our beliefs or totally correct for that matter. But you seem to be championing who you believe to be the little guy in this matter. Would you have likewise championed Israel when every arab neighbor was invading with the intent of utter annihilation?

Some of us simply believe Israel to be a democracy, and the 'palestinians' to be a merry band of thugs, by and large. It says much when no other nation of fellow arabs will host them, to include their fellow countrymen of what once was Trans-Jordan.

I believe Israel to have every right to pursue this present course of action. They are most certainly not blameless in the tumultuous history of the region, but no one has done more to sabotage the peace process than the palestinians themselves.

I don't think my statement was all that hard to understand.


In case you hadn't noticed, Israel has been attempting to bring about a two-state solution that would involve removing most of the settlements and letting the Palestinians have a separate state, provided the Palestinians would be willing to accept it and live alongside Israel. That means doing away with terrorism. The fact that their leadership has not shown an indication to accept Israel's existence would make it suicidal for Israel to turn over more territory to them at this time.

So, Israel is at fault for "existing"? Well the last time I checked most nations in the world exist. It's not exactly a terrible condemnation of the state of Israel that it exists. It seems to me everyone in the world is equally guilty of existing. Existence doesn't justify launching rockets at Israel or kidnapping its citizens.

And if the Palestinians want to play the plight of their people card, I'm not that impressed. Compared to what the Jews have experienced in the last 1500 years the Palestinians have it easy. The holocaust, pogroms, the Spanish Inquisition, the list goes on. And being poor doesn't justify blatant state-sponsored terrorism anyway. And the fact that Israel is so much nicer than any other country in the middle east might be seen by some to be a positive that reflects well on their country, not a reason it should be eliminated.


The US gives Israel $3 billion per year, not $6 billion.

In case you hadn't noticed, Israel has been attempting to bring about a two-state solution that would involve removing most of the settlements and letting the Palestinians have a separate state, provided the Palestinians would be willing to accept it and live alongside Israel. That means doing away with terrorism. The fact that their leadership has not shown an indication to accept Israel's existence would make it suicidal for Israel to turn over more territory to them at this time.

This is a nice piece to look at. I was myself shocked to learn that the IDF was in itself removing settlers but Israel has to realize that not everyone in Palestine will instantly accept if ever accept Israel, this should not be pushed on all of the population of Palestinians. Take Iraq for example, there truly is no way for u.s forces to figure out who is and who is not an insurgent, and when marines decide they have had enough of it and blow up some local Arab folk in reprisal we seem to have mixed emotions on the issue, or to cut it short I don’t see how punishing everyone for the acts of some will solve the issue, after all its not like the IDF has not tried this strategy many times over.

Again I don’t see any real idea of peace ever coming to be or exist over there, each sides posses those that know the actions they commit to be just and correct even if it just keeps the violence boiling. No side in this struggle deserves u.s support and furthermore attempting to aid in what I basically label lunacy will only lead to us becoming part of a problem with only horror in it for us.

For a second think about the living conditions a typical Palestinian faces and the fact that in no way can those gorilla fighters ever truly cripple or hurt the IDF or Israel as it stands, it does not stop them from fighting, and in the fashion that Israel will carry itself over and over will only lend support to such lunacy, and furthermore some of the tactics carried out by the IDF happen to be utterly horrible when it comes to the humanity aspect of it all, but just like in Iraq this is an issue loaded with such.

No side is right in that conflict, Israel exists because of why, certain people in power made it so, people occupied those lands previous to Israel coming to be, yet a sane person just accepts that those previous people should just be ok with everything, I do not blame anyone save those that in any reality of sanity never happened to guess that such extremely conservative cultures might not make good friends of neighbors for that matter. The truth of the matter is both sides feel what they do is right when it comes to the people in that area that hate each other, no matter how you want to cut it, any talks of peace lead to protests in Israel for and against, and as you can see in Palestine not everyone is actively attacking Israel, this is the problem and I honestly do not see it changing.

So why should the U.S support it, my response is it should not, Israel can defend itself and its desires, it holds the capacity to do this, its not our fight and never was, plenty of other issues exist in the world and in our own country. For a start I think Texas should be giving to the native Americans for what they had to endure and people in Texas should just suck it up, but that would be irrational.

So they didn't like their former land occupied and wanted to get it back. They've had to face unhappy realities. The 1967 armistice line has become the internationally agreed upon dividing line between Israel and the future Palestinian state. The past Palestinian government and surrounding Arab states were willing to accept that. The Israelis have never been willing to accept that line nor accept international peace keepers in the area as the PLO called for.


Past Palestinian governments have indeed accepted Israel's right to exist. No peace agreement negotiation has ever hung up over that issue. Ask the Israeli government.


Leaving the Palestinians a country the size of a postage stamp can be a two state solution. Israel has not agreed to accept a two state solution that met international standards ie UN Resolution 242. It's not that generous. It represents the Palestinians getting 22% of the original Palestine that was taken from them. However it's too generous for the Israeli government and their supporters.


It would be nice if it could be done with your money, not mine. I don't like having Palestinian blood on my hands.


Not hard to understand but seemingly clueless as it implied the country that was subsidizing the operation could continue the subsidies and not be "involved".


Would somebody on this board show me where any previous Palestinian negotiating party before Hamas ever said they refused to accept Israel's existence? I keep hearing this lie stated over and over and just on the face of it is obvious hogwash. How can you negotiate a peace with someone whose existence you refuse to acknowledge? Show me where any Israeli negotiator has said this is a problem. That's the problem with dealing with any issue having to do with Israel. You don't get arguments. You get mindless mantras.

As for the Israelis negotiating a two state solution they refuse to accept international standards, standards that we have signed on to. You can find former public officials in Israel who say the Israelis did not negotiate in good faith.


You're not reading me very well. I said gifts and credits. Most of the latter are very low interest or simply written off.


It'll be a cold day in hell before the rest of these folks decide that funneling billions of US taxpayers dollars to Israel annually isn't a good thing. Which brings up a point that continually baffles me.

Whenever the matter of Israel comes up and I bring up the dual problems of:

1. Our yearly hemorrhage of large quantities of money to Israel
2. The fact that our favoring Israel has made a mountain of enemies for us, particularly in the ME

I get met with a complete nonresponse, a complete silence. It's almost as if these folks have some sort of umbilical relationship with the state of Israel and the United States and our interests don't even enter the picture. They are not even worth commenting on. It's weird, this singular passion for Israel above all else. And it is additionally strange because our policies there have been lose lose lose all the way around, including poor Israel which has been bleeding and getting bad press internationally for decades, all to maintain some fanatics in some West Bank settlements. It doesn't seem worth it but it looks like there are people who are willing to fall on their sword or have somebody else fall on their sword for them to maintain this impossibly irrational state of affairs.

Not exactly. First off they never had any land ever. Please show us this country, name it's leader, it's capital, anything. The true fact is that they renounced all claim to the Gaza, Jerusalem, Samaria, Judea, and the Golon in 1964 and did not claim it until 1968. Nor is there any such international agreement. Nor does the UN even have the authority to interfere and determine Israel's borders since 1948. Just a mere matter of international law.

That's nice but the current government does not so the past is just that the current terrorist regime does not and that is a fact.

Israel has more than met the conditions of UNSC 242. They do not have to and according to that same resolution nor should they return to the borders prior to the '67 War.

And I would like it if my government did not give 20 times that amount to Arab nations, but they do. I don't want American blood on my hands.

Would somebody on any board show me where any previous Palestinians have ever fulfilled even one of their obligations? One single day would be sufficient. Just one. I keep hearing this lie state over and over and it is hogwash. Can you name one day that there was not at least 10 terrorist attacks? Just one day that's all I ask. All we get is the same mindless mantra that they accepted the existence of Israel and yet can not produce anything that shows that. Is that asking too much?

So what? I can do the same for every government on this earth and it's history. Israel has fulfilled it's obligations, and yet while doing so the Palestinians have not.

Wrong on all accounts. The US does not give gifts to Israel, credit costs the US taxpayers zero dollars and nothing has ever been written off. Israel has repaid every single loan.


1. But 20 times that amount to Arab countries doesn't bother you? It amounts to 3% of Israel's budget, not exactly the huge amount you claim.
2. Don't worry they hate us because we are tolerant and non-Muslim. They hated us long before we ever gave a single dollar to Israel.

The United States and Israel have a fairly large amount of trade. Israeli technology is powering this debate. Every single aircraft in the US is controlled by Israeli developed technology. Many of the medicines that people take throughout the world were developed in that country you hate so much. Israel is the leader in the entire world in developing crops and irrigation methods for the developing world.

But none of this has the least bit to do with the subject.

Let me pose a simple question. After Israel withdrew from Gaza, not just it's people but everything including the bodies of their dead which is in direct violation of Jewish law, there has been over 1,000 rockets launched from Gaza, thousands of roadside bombs, cross border attacks, etc. And now an attack that murdered two soldiers, captured one inside of Israel, and you expect them to do what? The United States had 4 attacks, invaded two countries, toppled their governments, inflicted 500,000+ casualties and you seem to think that Israel is the only nation in the world not allowed to defend itself from attack. Why? Just give me one good reason why.

Isreal since its forced founding has done nothing more then defend itself as its grown. I never denounced the idea that isreal should defend its goals, but the simple fact I try to point out is no war in that area would exist if the idea of isreal being a nation in that area never came to be. This idea or nation is supported and keep alive via force and violence, my stance is simply the u.s has no place is taking sides in such a conflict.

You have got to be kidding right? That is way to easy to disprove. The Arab has had nothing but wars, most not involving Israel. Syria has warred on Turkey, Lebanon and Jordan. Iran and Iraq had a nine year war. Egypt has fought Libya, Sudan and even invaded Yemen. Algeria has had a ten year civil war that hundreds of thousands people have been killed in. Morocco has fought all of their neighbors. You can not name any of the Arab countries without them. The Arab world hates each other almost as much as they hate the rest of the world. Inter-Arab wars have caused over somewhere between 3-5,000,000 casualties over the past 50 years, which is over 500 times the all Israeli-Arab conflicts combined.

First off during war accidents happen. Or perhaps you could explain why the US Air Force on 17 Jun 1968 (over one year after the Liberty incident) managed to attack the HMAS Hobart that was operating WITH the US Navy. They hit the ship with 2 missiles nearly sinking it and killed several Aussies. Link My answer is during combat things usually go wrong. Israel did not have any stolen missile technology, nor did they sell any to anybody else. Sorry to inform you of the facts, but it was Americans that did that not Israelis. So before condemning one our leading allies you might try the facts.

Yes it was, that is of course if you believe what Khaled Mashaal say that he gave the orders and he is the head of Hamas.

Perhaps. Then again, Israel was not the first country in that region to be artificially set up and propped up by Western governments during this time period. Jordan, Iraq and Kuwait come handily to mind.

Besides, it's not as if the surrounding Arab countries were looking to preserve a Palestinian state. During the 1947-1948 wars, Jordan Syria and Egypt were pretty much looking at conquering the entire Palestine-Israel area and divying it up for themselves.

And yes, the nation of Israel is kept alive by force and violence. It's called defending your life. And note that Israel had to do so with second and third hand arms purchased through France and Britain, and still were able to fight and win over countries like Egypt and Syria, who were being supplied with the latest arms from the Soviets. The US provided no military arms to Israel until the mid-1960s, and even then, in limited quantities.

The US very much had a place in taking sides, especially in the 60s and 70s, when it was clear that Soviet Russia was arming Israel's enemies. This was the Cold War, after all, and we could not be seen as waek against Communist supported agression against a sovereign, democratic government. Particularly at a time when Israel was being attacked regularly, and from all sides. Supplying arms to Israel during that time was arguably the least we could do, and was in fact, the most we did do.

If you deplore the aid that the US gave to Israel at that time, and on to the present day, perhaps you'll condemn as well, the Soviets, who I would argue had no business arming every other Arab country around Israel, considering those Arab countries sworn objective was to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth.

Alot of what Loreng says is true- but he leaves out that some was, in fact, native to that area prior to 1948, and recognized country or not- they set up house in a place that was already settled and disturbed a hornets nest by doing so, and did it by using terrorism against the british goverment- something yassar arafat pretty much patterned his own Fatah after.

All of this is of course, over the big question- is Isreal deserving of thier own country, since, after all, they didn't have one for like, oh, 2000 years prior, and all of a sudden, do to some, very, very bad treatment by the western world , then we plop them down in a region that they have religious affiliation to, but are not the population majority, and then expect the locals to welcome them with open arms? Giving the transjordon area or whatever you want to call the area to the European jews was a very, very bad idea, and it is haunting us over and over again. I would say it is the single greatest mistake of the 20th century, and set up the next, what, 60 years now of turmoil. So how DO we solve the mistakes of 1917 and 1948? - got me, even if I were emporer of the world and had all the power, I have no idea how long and how to fix that situation now!

1. Will this lead to even greater hostilities in the area?

Oh sure- I mean, history has shown us this is the cycle as it continues. Good lesson might be found in Ireland. keep it up, the tit for tat will go on forever- one side will portray Isreal as the long suffering saint of oppresion by Arabs, the other, Palestinians reaction to the oppression of the Zionist movement- regardless, teh tit for tat will go on forever if both sides keep it up- that part is obvious.

2. How should the United States respond?

Pull out permanently of the middle east, lock, stock and barrel, take every dime we spend on them, very weapon system, every humanitarian aide, and leave never to return. We get enough oil from Canada, mexico and Venezuala , heck, almost all of it, to worry about the middle east.

We won't leave for two reasons:

1) The right wing religious faction of our own political reality believes that Isreal is the key to the rapture, anti-chirist etc, and it influences too much of our political reality

2) Corporations like haliburton have too much pull and are able to affect policy with thier access to GW types.

We simply CAN'T be fair and practical when it comes to the middle east- any more than Hamas.

I'm not here to debate what's in your imagination.


Right after somebody shows where I said that. I said that Israel currently has been attempting to do that, at our urging. Just to bring you back on track here (I got a feeling I'm gonna have to do that pretty often on this thread), you said, "Until this country takes responsibilty and really insists that UN Resolution 242 be implemented as part of a general peace agreement then I don't see any end to this insanity." Well, we have been insisting that Israel withdraw to borders that leave the Palestinians with a viable state. We even have been insisting on a corridor between the West Bank and Gaza, something that goes beyond what's in Resolution 242. And Israel has responded by taking the unprecedented step of forming a new party designed to achieve those goals by and large. And it took another unprecedented step of forcibly removing Jewish families from the Gaza strip, which of course only turned it into an even more radicalized Palestinian stronghold.


If you're referring to Res 242, then those are standards that President Johnson signed onto, for whatever political purpose he had in mind. LBJ is not "we".

And it shouldn't escape mention that Israel itself never signed on to this "agreement" that decided their fate. Oh well, who cares what they think anyway.

Many nations in one form or another fell victim to the cold war, Afghanistan and Vietnam being the stand outs if you will in my mind. We as a world collectively do not live in the cold war anymore though.

Now we face terrorism, which comes from any place that extremist point of view can spawn in, like Saudi Arabia, another sound ally like Israel.

Terrorism if you will feeds off of ignorance and hate for the most part, I view those misguided people as nothing more then haters, but without an ability to be able to simply find all of these people and nip it in the bud if you will I think the next best bet is to nip the psychological warfare engine of it. If the u.s simply backs Israel’s chosen struggle without any regards for anything else besides that, I am sure it will not work to our advantage and thus more young men and women from Saudi Arabia and other mid east or Muslim heavy nations will go and fight for what they love and believe is right, unlike in the comic books I doubt for these people to see the actions they commit as evil and sinister nor do I believe the possess some evil chuckle as they hatch their evil plans.

This issue I have never tried to move into the realm of Israel should not defend itself, Israel will keep defending itself they way it deems fit and moreover the violence in that part of the world in my opinion again will not cease. I do not see why the u.s should stick its neck out for this, maybe if Israel was in real danger of losing itself in war I could see the u.s picking up stick and stones but this is not the reality Israel faces with the Palestinians.

I simply do not care to have any money I pay in taxes to be used for the purchase of tank rounds that will end up fired into a refugee camp, its really that simple, it only breeds more hate in my opinion and this is the strategy Israel runs over and over in defense, its unable to remove the cancer or war agent among the Palestinians and of course from its own people.

Now overall I imagine most likely such shift in thought is to late and the u.s will basically become the same issue, trying to find and kill something and getting terrorized on a regular basis.

Look at it from our point of view, how much did France lose in regards to positive American perception when they would not support OIF, when you bed your image or what not within another nation its guilt by association for whatever that nation does or does not. Nations happen to be ultimately conservative, this is why the u.n basically is almost at the point of failing on a regular basis, the u.s needs to run its international views in accordance to whatever future we want in regards to this in my opinion, the endless support of Israel I do not see as positive as some others do, and I feel the support of Israel should come from nations working via the u.n instead of a singular basis.

CR, I just googled Halliburton + Israel and came up with virtually no connection. Certainly none worth propping up a nefarious alliance theory. Could you give us an example, or was this just another reason to try and drag Halliburton's name through the mud?

Dragging Haliburtons's name throught the mud would be elevating haliburton a bit to much IMHO- no, I meant not to imply that they work in Isreal- but that they make so much money in the middle east- no bid contracts anyone?- that they influence US policy to STAY in the ME- not really Isreal.

I mean, you have to ask the larger question of the ME and US in the first place- why do we care? We hve larger populations of oppressed ethnic groups without homelands, with much more recent claims than the Jews (Kurds comes to mind, and our own American Native's) - for instance Africa- but we let those countries kill and do all kinds of things without us running over with 100k plus soldiers and billions of dollars-

so why do we continue to hang out in the ME, and continue to care if tit for tat violence goes on and on in Gaza and the like?

Religious ideation and corporate investment would be the two reasons that pop right to mind. Has nothing to do with right or wrong.

And the Isrealites will opress the indiginous population, and the indiginous population will fight back the only way they know how, and the only way to end this cycle in the manner acceptable to either side is annihilation of the other side.

You'll have better success googling the history of Standard Oil.

I have a feeling CR is referring to the cozy relationship Dick Cheney has with Haliburton. I'll have to check my books for specific references pertaining to Israel but can say from 1992 on that Cheney had issued a study that had Haliburton working for the military.

Back then Mr. Cheney began a classified study to determine whether private companies should handle the military's civil logistics under one of the more silly acronyms, the Logistics Civil Augmentation Program (LOGCAP). The logistics under consideration were preparing and serving meals, washing laundry, driving and repairing nonmilitary vehicles, building and cleaning bases, and delivering fuel and water. Cheney's pentagon paid KBR (Kellogg Brown and Root) $9 million to conduct the study and shortly afterwards KBR concluded that services should be privatized.

This is where the door was opened for not only civilian contractors, but special sub contracted intelligence that answered to the CIA but worked alongside the military every day. That is how and why Abu Gharib took place.

In '93 KBR was awarded the first privatized LOGCAP and three years later Mr. Cheney was hired on to the parent company of KBR - Haliburton. It is important to note in 1997 Haliburton lost their contract due to bogus billing practices in Bosnia under Clinton's reign. KBR was intent to reclaim the work back after having stellar earnings during this period. In 2001 KBR was able to get the contract back, just before the invasions of Afghanistan and later, Iraq.

This event is important because it represents a change in both the behaviour and accoutability that differed from how Gulf War One was handled under HW Bush. Warring for profit was now possible as was setting up a sub-contractor class that was not answerable to military protocol which was essential for pursuing information attained under duress.

Yes, I know all about LOGCAP. I first posted about it here and here. My point to CR was that Halliburton has no ties to Israel worth mentioning in this thread, about this topic. The name was dropped for dramatic effect rather than to bolster any claim or opinion. A concise history of LOGCAP can be found here. But this isn't really germane to the topic. As a matter of fact, I'm not sure that Victoria would have wanted her debate questions about the specific trouble in Gaza broadened into the larger issue of America's support for Israel.

I think the current stand by the administration is the correct one for now.



edited to add: our link to GlobalSecurity.org is the same source on LOGCAP. Didn't see that until after I posted.

To be debated:

1. Will this lead to even greater hostilities in the area?
Yes, unless the Palestinians release Corporal Shalit unharmed.

2. How should the United States respond?
Provide Israel with whatever assistance they request directly pursuant to recovering Corporal Shalit, killing Palestinian terrorists, and killing Hamas's leadership.

We should also prepare a humanitarian response team that will, once the three above goals are accomplished, restore minimal operation of the power plant. Bill the restoration to the Palestinian Authority.

First off the settlements go back to say the 1860s. And the start of Arab terrorism goes back to the 1880s which led to the formation of the Hashomer or Watchmen to protect Jewish villages. Fatah was pattern after these Arab irregulars which predated the arrival of the British by some 40 years. The British battled Arab terrorists through the 20s and 30s by destroying entire villages, etc. So your timeline is off by a lot.

Europe nor even England plopped the Jews down there. They were a large portion of the population prior to World War 1. Hence the Balflour Declaration to support the Jewish effort to establish a homeland once more in the region. They got some 200,000 soldiers to support their efforts in the Middle East. So the Jews were in force there long before that time. Now to state that a majority of Israelis are of European descent is wrong. Over 70% of the population is native born, most are 3rd or more generation. A majority of the population's ancestors were Arab Jews. So they are hardly non-native in any respect. They came from the region and still reside there. The only mistakes that I can see are on the part of the Arabs refusing to accept this.

Except that there is no tit for tat going on. You seem to feel that Israel is exacting revenge on the Arabs, well the current situation is an excellent example on how wrong that is. If Israel was out for revenge then instead of sitting outside of Arab towns they would be shelling everything in sight, etc. Whereas the opposite in happening, first off they are demanding the release of their soldier, they are carefully targeting only certain infrastructure, which is designed to pressure the PA to release him and otherwise not doing a whole lot. Does that really sound like an operation to exact revenge? Doesn't to me.



1) US support for Israel long predates the rise of the religious right. Also support in Congress crosses all party lines and liberal and conservative blocks. So that contention is obviously wrong.

2) Corporations like Haliburton do not, have not and never will have any contracts in Israel. Do you have any idea why that is? Because if they did then they would never be allowed to work in any of the Arab countries. So that too is obviously incorrect.

The US has come down on the side of the Arabs more often than they have ever supported Israel. So I would agree that the US is not fair or practical but that is because they side with the Arabs that hate us over our true friends like Israel.

I don’t find it particularly surprising that following the collapse of the Ottoman Empire national boundaries weren't erased in peoples’ minds. Political lines were drawn at the convenience of European powers without regard for regional, ethnic, and religious differences. Nascent bureaucracies, institutions that can make the difference between an ancient and modern state, were replaced with French and Italian bureaucracies. By the time European states left the region the institutional knowledge was gone. The knowledge covering day-to-day governance doesn’t pop out of thin air.

More recently a few “lucky” oil rich states were able to unitize the population and salvage those political lines through egalitarian subsidies. The problem here is that this encourages the opposite of a failed bureaucracy; a patronage system. Patronage systems don’t encourage a free market. Without a free market the government can’t tax the population (extraction) to run itself. Conservatives belabor taxing in the U.S., but without taxes the population can’t demand concessions from the government and the status quo continues.


I’m afraid Loreng is right. The U.S. assisted Israel with ambiguous language in the drafting of 242. Thanks to this discussing Israel’s border is pointless. Both sides will claim more territory than the other side will accede.


This isn’t true. Grants are not the same as loans.



Israel is an ally with its hands tied and not much use in a conventional sense. In spite of billions of dollars in military aid we can’t solicit their assistance in the region. Even discussing taking out sites in Iran raises red flags.

Will this lead to even greater hostilities in the area? How should the United States respond?
Palestinians demanded the release of one thousand prisoners, some of them alleged to be women and children. Israel refused. I don’t know why, it’s a fair trade. The way Israelis are acting one Israeli is worth one thousand Palestinians.

The latest outburst stems from an attack or accident, depending on your Semite nationality, on a Gaza beach. Hamas immediately promised retaliation. An independent Israeli investigation into the incident implicated Hamas. Human Rights Watch disagrees with Israel’s methodology of the investigation and as we all know HRW wants to destroy Israel.

I wanted to get to the bottom of the beach attack. Most political scientists agree that, at a minimum, a state must monopolize violence. The difference between a good racketeer and a bad racketeer is a good one acts as protector (give me power to protect you from them). The bad racketeer creates threats. I wanted to see which category Hamas/PLO falls under. But as I kept reading about the incident I realized I will never get to the bottom of it.

The need for both sides to undercut information hurting their goals and the desire for both sides to promote information highlighting favorable conduct is the biggest stumbling block for anyone wanting to make up their minds about the situation independently. I believe for the most part the Israel conducts itself professionally and Palestinians don’t, but I don’t believe for a minute that Israel could get a passing grade on every report card living with a siege mentality for 40+ years.

At this point I think Israel should finish what Hitler started with the Palestinians. The Palestinian identity is too fractured for self-government. I can’t imagine what it would be like to go through Canadian courts to gain access to my own land. That’s what the situation calls for in Palestinian territories. This is not sovereignty. Palestinians will never achieve sovereignty, no matter who gets involved in the interests of peace, because they lack the force, real force necessary to demand Israeli concessions. Because of their proximity Israel won’t allow this, and neither will the U.S. Whether or not we asked for genocide when the U.N. set up Israel, we’ve set up the conditions to necessitate Israel destroying all the Palestinians. As much as we deplore violence and genocide (Native Americans, Assyrians and Armenians come to mind, not just Jews) it’s hard for nations to accept territorial boundaries not etched in blood.

To answer the first question specifically it already escalated. Israel destroyed Hamas’ PM Ismael Haniyeh’s office and captured him. Israel is threatening to assassinate him if the soldier isn’t returned unharmed. Trite and hollow promises of avoiding civilian casualties if war breaks out have been offered by both sides. Adults are on vacation.

Wow, anyone that says we don't GIVE AWAY money to Israel must be trying to play games. We GIVE plenty to Israel.

And you have to ask yourself what is Israel doing now. In a time when there is relatively no violence they launch a rocket onto a public beach, killing people and then saying "oops, sorry". Do you think they wanted to insight violence, my guess is yes. Now that Palestinians has a formal gov't, Israel can attack it.

I don't consider Israel much of an ally, they seem to be more of a burden than a benefit. Not to mention if Israel were a corporation people would be outraged....although they should be outraged anyway.

Israel takes the $3billion they get, and turn around to fund the 2nd biggest lobby in the US to make sure the money keeps coming. Even though the population of jews in the US is less than 10%. It seems like quite a scam to me.

Lesly the hostage was taken as form of protest against Israel's hostage taking policies. Israel advocated taking Lebanese hostages since '97 as bargining chips. This report (pdf) lays out a plan for killing Palenstinians during arrest operations. There is an estimated 9000 hostages held by Israel with 1000 of them being administrative detainees with no relation to conflict. The 1000 are being held without any charges or trial in a similar fashion to Guantanamo. The remaining 8000 were convicted from confessions attained under torture. The report voices Israel's concerns about establishing their own form non combative status despite reservations from the UN. There was a debate about this subject last week from democracy now. Discussion is about 18 min. in.

BBC World had a clip of thousands of Palestinians marching down the street demanding the return of their loved ones. Each one held a portrait. Each portrait was different. I think these people are exerting a tremendous amount of pressure upon the Hamas government to do something and get their people back. Unfortunately there seems little indication on Israel's side to engage in talks. They were more concerned about taking out a power plant which was promptly answered on Palestine's side with another hostage taking.

Personally I feel there are elements within Palestine Hamas cannot control. My guess is there are some which take offense from the statement Hamas issued last week offering to recognize Israel.

So in response to the president's comment;



Such actions will pour salt on an already festering wound. We really need both sides to come together and start talking. Since Hamas went out last week and made an effort I think the impetus is now on Israel to issue a response that does not escalate tensions by setting more pre-conditions.

Here is the problem. Talk is worthless with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. This is because any agreement that Israel and the PA can possible come to would be disrupted by the Islamic extremists who do not recognize any deal with Israel. The PA CANNOT and will not control the Islamic terror groups and thus the conflict will continue. You think that this is truly a stand by the PA government to free prisoners? The truth is that they have no options because the terror groups will not listen to the democratically elected government so if they negotiate an agreement to have the soldier returned, the terror groups will simply refuse the request and the lack of control will become apparent.

I really do not understand the logic that some people use when they suggest that Israel cede back the land they took in the '67 conflict. That land was gained by war, just like every square inch of land on this planet. To suggest that they should give it back and that this will end the violence is ridiculous when one realizes that the Islamic terror groups want Israel wiped off the map. Israel gave back land last year to the Palestinians as well all saw on the news with crying and protests from the residents as Israeli troops forced them out of their homes to further peace. But this did nothing to the process because the fight over land is the underlying issue.

Until the PA and the Palestinian people can either denounce or control the terror groups there will be no peace.

I have read both of your sources, which you must admit contain a fair amount of bias towards the palestinian side. Nowhere did I find the accusation that 8000 palestinians were convicted due to confessions gained from torture. Did I miss that tidbit somewhere, or could that be a bit of hyperbole?

1. Will this lead to even greater hostilities in the area?
Of course. No matter what happens there is going to be an escalation. I can forsee only three outcomes and all of them include Israeli retailiation.

A. The Palestinians hold on to the Hostage indefinately. Israel retailiates to recover their solider.
B. The Palestinians return the hostages body. Israel retailiates to avenge their solider.
C. The Palestinians return the hostage alive. Israel occupy Gaza to find the kidnappers.
Of course the only option that would halt this violence, the Palestinians return the solider dead or alive and turn themselves in. Anyone want to take bets?

One thing is for sure though, the toxic enviroment which leads to terrorism will still exist so that it will be only a matter of time till the Palestinians lash out again and then Israel and their propaganda machine will point finger and say "they started it" and reoccupy the land under the guise of self defence.

2. How should the United States respond?
Depends, if you would like to maintain the status quo, appear non partial by saying things like "Both sides need to exercise restraint" while having no reprocussions if they don't. With Gaza locked down we know Israelis are the only one that can escalate, and the only way we can punish the Palestinians anymore is to send our own troops over there since we don't send any aid anymore.

If we wanted to actually be impartial, force them into a peace by cutting off both sides, force them to deal with each other. I'm sure that we can find better ways to spend that 3-6B then funding a low intensity war that fuels hatred for us in Arab countries.

On the other hand, what options does Israel have? I can forsee only one outcome, no matter what Israel's response. Continued terrorism. Israel has endured weeks of rocket fire on Sderot, which is a town inside the pre-1967 armistice lines. What has the retreat from Gaza given them? A Hamas election and increased attacks.

I don't know what options they have at this point. I don't think military attacks in response are the answer. They could lose more soldiers, or once again face intifada-style tactics. I'm not sure what the military can exactly accomplish, other than quagmire and propaganda points for the Palestinians. Their situation typifies my signature: auribus teneo lupum. They have the wolf by the ears. Two very bad situations whatever the choices they make. Perilous to hold on, suicide to let go.

This isn’t true. Grants are not the same as loans.


So many errors it is hard to start. First off your data on aid is way out of data. Iraq has received approx. 300 billion in US aid. Egypt does not nor has it gotten 3:2. Aid to Israel is 3.2 billion and Egypt it is 2.8 billion well over that figure. Combined with aid to various other Arab countries that amounts to a 1:2 ratio. The US gives over 6 billion annually to various Arab countries that hate our guts.

The United States and United Kingdom came up with UNSC Res 242. And the wording was put in there to ensure that Egypt and Jordan could not get back the territory that they took in 1948. But that's only according to the authors.

The people held in Israeli jails (approx 8,500) were all convicted of minor crimes like murder, attempted murder, assault with deadly weapons, etc. Some of them are younger than 18, but considered adults do the seriousness of the offense, like most countries. Yes there are women there too. They are not hostages, nor was torture used against them.

The US had one of their soldiers taken in Iraq, yet I did not hear that the US would negotiate of his release either, imagine Israel thinking that they were equal to the US.

As for the nonsense of HRW, well their 'expert' on artillery has a PoliSci degree and looked at Intell Photos for a living and that makes him an expert in metallurgy? Nothing about that incident is what they claim. But to ignore the fact that the PA has launched 1,200 rockets at Israel since they withdrew from Gaza is most telling.

What is this about 'I think Israel should finish what Hitler started with the Palestinians'. What in the world are you talking about? What did Hitler have to do with an organization which started 19 years after he died? As for Israeli concessions, they are the only ones that have made any. The only thing Israel has ever demanded is that the PA fulfill their obligations. They have never fulfilled any of those conditions, nor have they ever offered a single concession.

You better get some better sources Israel has not captured the Hamas PM nor threatened him.

According to USAID, Israel received 720 million dollars in foreign aid in the form of a cash transfer in 2002. Egypt in the same year received 655 million dollars in foreign aid in the form of a cash transfer. Now, let's compare the populations of these two countries. Israel, in 2002, had a population of roughly 6 million people. Egypt had a population in 2002 of roughly 70 million people. That's about $9.36/capita in Egypt and about $120/capita in Israel - almost 13 times as much.

The numbers I give are in economic aid only and do not reflect the amount of military financial aid added on top of this.

Am not sure what this has to do with the topic, yes Egypt has a far larger population and far smaller GNP. That does not change the facts.

All of the aid to Egypt is in the form of military aid. They have the highest percent of expenditure on their armed forces of any nation in the world and has been at that level since 1976. Approx 40% of the GNP goes to their military. That is for a country that has nobody threatening it. Nearly half of the aid to Israel is directed toward improving their economy. Israel's defense budget is approx 35% of Egypt's, their GNP is about 30% higher than their neighbor that is 13 times there size.

All this doesn't change the fact that it is still about 3% of Israel's budget.

Well, I was just dealing with your 20 times the amount of aid comment.

Well, it seems to me, that in 2003 Israel was slated to receive close to 2.1 billion dollars in military aid and 600 million dollars in economic aid? How exactly does that translate into nearly half? It looks more like 22% of the aid given to Israel goes to the economy?