The independence day 2006 Washington Post has an enlightening, yet troubling, article about a Wiccan GI who was killed in action, and the government's refusal to put a Wiccan image on his gravestone. Interestingly enough, soldiers can choose from 38 different designs, over half of which are variations of christian images. It is pointed out that the Supreme Court acknowledged the Wiccan *movement* as a religion in 1986. An interesting statement in the article was made by a United Church of Christ chaplain.



Questions for debate:

1.)Is the first amendment rights of the fallen soldier being violated in refusing to allow the inscription of his preferred religious symbol on his tombstone?

2.)To what extent should court cases involving Wiccan religious rights in prisons affect this decision?

3.)What are the reasons, if any, for denying the soldier's request and that of his family?

I'm thinking there may have to be a line drawn somewhere. What if someone wants a Satanic symbol on his gravestone? Or if he just up and decides that Nazism is his "religion" and wants a swastika? I'm not necessarily saying that the line was drawn in the right place here, but that's different from saying that anything goes. I don't really think that the DoD should feel obligated to accomodate every latest fad that comes along.

Oh really, if a soldier, fighting and dying for his country believes in voo doo, somehow, his religion is less relevent than the other soldiers? Talk about repression of religious freedom! This is a total outrage- a total suppression of a religion by the religiously politically correct!

If he worships nazi-ism, but he was a good soldier, or satanism, or whatever, and did his duty honorably, then yes, it should be reflected if that is his wish- it is NOT for some right wing christian who's sensibilities are somehow offended to decide-HE or SHE didn't give the ultimate sacrifice- the person under the headstone did.

1.)Is the first amendment rights of the fallen soldier being violated in refusing to allow the inscription of his preferred religious symbol on his tombstone?
Absolutely. In 2001 the list of religious preferences in the USAF Personnel Data System was augmented to include: Dianic Wicca, Druidism, Gardnerian Wicca, Pagan, Seax Wicca, Shamanism, and Wicca. The rest of the services haven't followed to that extent, yet, but they all allow wiccan services to be performed on bases and aboard ship. Even the military, with it's regulations and protocol, does not dictate what invisible guy, spirit or being one may worship, as long as that worship does not harm oneself or others.
As long as the religion is recognized by law, a fallen soldier should have the right to have his/her tombstone reflect the faith.

2.)To what extent should court cases involving Wiccan religious rights in prisons affect this decision?
We don't even need to look at the precedence set by the courts concerning the practice of wicca in prison. In the decision of United States v. Phillips, (1995), Judge Wiss wrote the concurring opinion in that case: "First, Wicca is a socially recognized religion. It is is acknowledged as such by the Army, as per (DA) Pamphlet 165-13-1, Religious Requirements and Practices of Certain Selected Groups: A Handbook for Chaplains (April 1980), revising A Pamphlet 165-13, Religious Requirements and Practices of Certain Selected Groups: A Handbook for Chaplains (April 1978). Further, it is acknowledged as such in courts of law."

3.)What are the reasons, if any, for denying the soldier's request and that of his family?
Religious bigotry comes to mind........

I don’t understand this attitude, especially when it comes from ardent supporters of religious freedom. Some religious freedom supporters are supporters as long as the religion in question has some ties with Judaism or attains a level of legitimacy on its own through sheer numbers. If a religion doesn’t fall in either one of these categories we, paradoxically, are supposed to forget that the government can’t show preference to one religion over the other and religion over no religion for the good of the Republic.

Why do I say this? You dragged the military into the prison religious services thread even though the military doesn’t make religious participation necessary to advance through the ranks, let alone make participation in the One True Religion (i.e. Christianity) necessary. Then there are learned religious freedom supporters who should know better than to budget relevance based on likeness.


If it can be argued that Nazism is more than an intolerant ideology and someone wants a swastika or a Satanic symbol, so what? The DoD doesn’t have a religious test. The only ideological test is swearing to defend the Constitution before getting on the bus.

Are the First Amendment rights of the fallen soldier being violated in refusing to allow the inscription of his preferred religious symbol on his tombstone?
Yes.

To what extent should court cases involving Wiccan religious rights in prisons affect this decision?
It shouldn’t be treated any differently from Christian services, but neither service should bestow special administrative favors on participants over non-participants. The only question is special accommodations within the prison that may not be feasible for security/safety reasons, such as boiling cauldrons. As far as tombstones go, inclusion depends on whether the state already picks up the tab for religious symbols or use a simple, non-religious marker.

What are the reasons, if any, for denying the soldier's request and that of his family?
Resistance to the government acknowledging a religious belief that “undermines” the Christian plotline? Superstition about cursing the cemetery?

So are you saying that the only constitutional option is that the soldiers be able to come up with whatever designs they want on their grave markers at military cemeteries?

If so, why didn't you just say so?
If not, then somewhere, a line needs to be drawn, right?

1.)Is the first amendment rights of the fallen soldier being violated in refusing to allow the inscription of his preferred religious symbol on his tombstone?

1. Absolutely. It's a disgrace that we would treat our fallen with such unAmerican disrespect.

2.)To what extent should court cases involving Wiccan religious rights in prisons affect this decision?

Frankly, I'm not a believer that prison inmates have a right to religion. They have the right to be treated humanely, with food, shelter, clothing and common decency, with respect to their religious beliefs within reason. Anything more is a courtesy, not a right.

3.)What are the reasons, if any, for denying the soldier's request and that of his family?

There are no good reasons; their excuses are prejudice and fear.

1.) Is the first amendment rights of the fallen soldier being violated in refusing to allow the inscription of his preferred religious symbol on his tombstone?

I think so. Who else's business is it what I decide to have on my tombstone? That is a personal decision. Now, if it were an engraved hand with the middle finger extended for all to see (!), someone would have an argument for not having that inscription in a place designed to honor the dead. But the pentacle is a religious symbol.

2.) To what extent should court cases involving Wiccan religious rights in prisons affect this decision?

I'm not sure these cases have a whole lot to do with each other, and as an attorney arguing in defense of pentacles on soldiers' headstones, I would try to avoid citing decisions based on the religious practices of prisoners.

3.) What are the reasons, if any, for denying the soldier's request and that of his family?

This has been answered well: prejudice.

Talk is cheap. Either these soldiers who died, ostensibily to protect America and its freedoms, have the same rights of freedom of speech and of religion, etc. (once past the constraints of their commanding officers), or nobody really does. Unfortunately, it depends a lot on what religion-supported politicians are in power at the time. When are powerful religious people going to realize that another person's beliefs--"right", "wrong" or otherwise--cannot be forced upon the populace? Conversion is an act of the mind and the spirit that is wrought by the person's will to believe. A pentacle or pentagram on someone's headstone is going to send neither the deceased nor the viewer to damnation.

Of course there needs to be a line drawn somewhere, but certainly not here. 130,000 practitioners is more than enough to validate the religion. The practices it employs are older than Christianity. What possible argument could there be for drawing a line at Wiccans(which is what this debate is about)?

Wiccans are not Satanists. In fact Satanists are not Satanists, in the sense that I believe you are implying here. It is not an inherently evil religion. The Wikipedia article does an excellent job of explaining the intricacies of what is commonly referred to as "Satanism:"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanists

Nazism is not a religion and is a completely moot point.

If they believe in it enough to have it put on thier dog tags and is thier wish when going to the grave while in service for this country- well, yeah.

Who are we to judge the man's dying wish for a statement of his beliefs?

I mean really, why even have a discussion on it-

It is not for the bruised ego of Christians to deny any statement of belief, no matter how absurd to a "Christian" or "main stream faith" or whatever you are implying here.

I don't see christianity, islam, judiasm, or any other "established" religion as any more elevated ofa belief system as aboriginal belief of "dream time".

And in fact, in a land of freedom of religion, why is this even an issue?

Questions for debate:

1.)Is the first amendment rights of the fallen soldier being violated in refusing to allow the inscription of his preferred religious symbol on his tombstone?
No. The fallen soldier is dead, and as such, he has no rights. Now, an argument could be made that his post-mortem Fourteenth Amendment rights are being violated, unequal treatment and all that. It should be noted that this is not a case of "allowing" the inscription, because if the

2.)To what extent should court cases involving Wiccan religious rights in prisons affect this decision?
Not being familiar with the cases in question, I'll venture a hearty "I dunno"

3.)What are the reasons, if any, for denying the soldier's request and that of his family?

But applications from Wiccan groups and individuals to VA for use of the pentacle on grave markers have been pending for nine years

Department spokeswoman Josephine Schuda said VA turned down Wiccans in the past because religious groups used to be required to list a headquarters or central authority, which Wicca does not have. But that requirement was eliminated last year, she noted.

So, anywhere from 6 to 18 months delay is what we're now looking at, and considering the slothly speed for which the VA is renowned, I'd say 'tis mostly just bureaucratic sluggishness. Especially when you consider that they've probably shuffled the requests off to the side as a result of their hypothetical nature until Stewart's death.

I can't find the words to describe how outrage I am at this blatant disregard for a fallen soldier's memory.

This soldier was a veteran of at least two campaigns and was posthumously awarded a Purple Heart and a Bronze Star. He served with honor and distinction and not only is entitled and deserving, but has friggin earned the right to have his last wishes met.

1.) Is the first amendment rights of the fallen soldier being violated in refusing to allow the inscription of his preferred religious symbol on his tombstone?

Damn right, they are, and the fact that 1.) a government agency is behind this and 2.) it's an agency that is supposed to support soldiers by every means possible makes me irate. There is no reason under the law that can support their actions, so their motives must fall under some sort of political agenda that infuses religion. This is one faith-based initiative that needs to be eliminated, pronto.

2.)To what extent should court cases involving Wiccan religious rights in prisons affect this decision?

I don't think it has much to do with it so commenting on it is unnecessary.

3.)What are the reasons, if any, for denying the soldier's request and that of his family?

Absolutely none.....

I'm assuming that the dead soldier left his request for the Wiccan emblem before he died, and the refusal of the governmetn to comply is a blatant disregard for his First Amendment right to free excercise of religion, the soldier being dead means absolutely nothing. How can you disregard burial rites in discussing First Amendment religious rights?


Of course it is, he has the right to free religious excercise, which includes burial rites, that's a no-brainer and whoever made this decision has absolutely no class whatsoever.


There is not one legitimate reason, not one, this is truly disgusting.

CP

I believe that there should be prescribed acceptable symbols to go onto headstones, and that if Wiccan was good enough to put on his dog tags, then maybe someone should've investigated whether something in relation to his religion could make it to a headstone. Afterall, he died for this country.

However, I can see why the VA wouldn't want the Wiccan Pentacle on the gravestone, as most people would just believe it to be a pentogram and associated with Satanism or someother "non-mainstream" religion.

It all comes back to the idea that most people in America associate themselves with Christianity, and Wiccans (even at the 130,000 number that I can't really verify) aren't really mainstream. We don't drive down mainstreet and see "wiccan" churches, etc. There is a certain amount of intolerance to what most Americans believe to be "cult-like" religions, and I believe "Wiccans" really fall into this category.

You have to understand that Wiccans use "spells" and "charms", which is normally viewed as Harry Potter-type notion in general.

So how does this relate to the topic? I suppose freedom of religion is as important as any other "American" value. However, I believe that it should be the earnest responsibility of the soldier(s) not-prescribing to a well-established religion to ensure that their wishes can be carried out prior to them joining the service and/or during their tenure.

In this soldier's case, I believe he wouldn't be well-served by the pentogram-type symbol. Could they possibly settle on something more acceptable? Otherwise, this poor guy will be remembered nationwide as the satanic national guardsman.... and anyone that passed by the gravestone would carry trepidation that this man obviously doesn't deserve.

It seems that the VA is not following the same rules then for all faiths. Judaism does not have a headquarters nor a central authority either. All rabbis are equal to all others, and the members of the faith have equal authority to all rabbis.

aevans176,

The pentagram dates back to the ancient Greeks. Just because most Americans are ignorant of its beginnings and use today does not justify the VA not using the symbol. After all, there are fifty pentagrams on the official flag of the United States. Generals wear pentagrams. Christians use pentagrams too at Christmas time. The symbol is virtually everywhere.

In its most basic sense, the pentagram is a symbol of the human body. Upside down it symbolizes wrongness, or in another term, evil, and in another, having one's head where the sun don't shine.

Also, are you forgetting the spells and charms used in Christianity? Symbolic cannibalism is a major spell, and the cross is a popular charm. Christians gather together in prayer meetings, which is a form of working magic, or at least an attempt at it, when the prayers try to impact the physical world. For example, praying for a sick relative is an attempt at working magic. Invoking Jesus Christ to intervene in worldly affairs is practicing another type of magic.

This is very strange too. Veteran grave markers have often used the pentagram to indicate the military association. Seems the VA has its head reversed on this issue. A pentagam is a penticle is a five-pointed star.

This action reflects arrogance, ignorance and denial. It's not surprising or uncommon, but that doesn't make it right either. There's no way to justify it.

But it's not for you to decide how well her/his memory is served in this case, or what is deemed acceptable. it was his belief system and should be respected. End of story. The cross is a pretty brutal symbol of an even greater brutality. Should it be removed on that basis, that it brings images of grisly crucifixions to mind?

Perhaps the VA can put a plaque up with a legend of what the symnbols represent.

The only possible argument I can think of is that it really isn't as "old" as it's been made out to be. It's practitioners are not heirs to an ancient tradition, but rather are followers of a quite modern movement that has imitated what it theorizes was an ancient religion, or a hodgepodge of ancient religions. Maybe it should be recognized nonetheless, but it still raises questions as to where the line should be drawn as to what should be considered a religion. You start to get into things like scientology, which is sort of half religion, half philosophical movement. I brought up Nazism because it was a political movement with a heavy religious (neo-pagan) basis, largely unique to itself.

By the way, in regards to your parenthetical comment, "what this debate is about" is whether the First Amendment has been violated. Coming up with the right answer to that question needs to involve examining the implications of the reasoning employed.

I find it interesting that the there is a large component of American society that believes they should deny the notion that they live in a predominantly Christian society and its impact on our culture.

Prayer is the same as casting spells??? How? It's just not at all... here is what I found when I googled "wiccan spells"... how about the first link that came up? Read here.

Funny enough, I'd say that Prayer could be likened to magic in a way. However, that's neither here nor there really.

First of all, this soldier (as far as we know) didn't ask that a pentacle (pentogram) or penta-whatever be put on his grave... so what's the deal? According to this site, there are more symbols than the Pentacle. Why not that?

I believe that the wife is attempting to make a political statement as opposed to aid in honoring the sacrifice of her fallen husband... but that's just my opinion. I have a theory about Wiccan people as a whole that's not really on topic anyway...

I have to disagree with you on this. Just because we live in a nation that is predominately christian, does not mean that all have to be bound by the tenets of that religion. I am predominately an agnostic, but I cannot fathom how or why a symbolic religious inscription on a headstone should be up for approval by anybody. As long as it is a valid religion, as the courts have ruled that it is, who thinks that they wield the power or the right to proclaim his religion invalid?
I don't have a problem with someone having a Church of Satan inscription on a headstone, the military (Army anyway) allows it to be imprinted on soldiers dogtags. It's not as if we are debating somebody trying to defraud the government of taxes by proclaiming a 'Church of Nintendo', we are speaking about the religious affiliation of a fallen comrade.
Any speculation of a political statement (and I can't imagine what such a statement would even be), is just that, speculation.

Here is the link to the VA guide to authorized headstone religious emblems. Wicca is not among them, but if you think Wicca is an oscure religion, try and identify some of those approved. The vast majority of these were not approved a mere few years ago, I see no reason that it should not be updated to include Wicca. After all, in such a predominate christian nation, if we can recognize Sufism, we can recognize Wicca.

Of course they don't follow the same rules for all faiths, because if they did, then they would have to either deny all faiths, or accept anything that someone called a "faith". Yup, I want Calvin *** NOTICE: THIS WORD IS AGAINST THE RULES. FAILURE TO REMOVE IT WILL RESULT IN A STRIKE. *** on the hammer and sickle on my tombstone, 'cause that's my religion. Who's going to naysay that, eh?

As a practical matter, they have to draw the line somewhere. Judaism is a faith that is thousands of years old, is part and parcel of our "Judeo-Christian" heritage, and has a robust institutional structure. In short, its not a "fly by night" religion. The modern reincarnation of Wicca? It lacks most, if not all of structural elements of religion.

I don't believe that Stewart's widow is playing this to make a political statement, but I do believe that there is a real bedrock issue in play here. What is the sociological implications of giving equal weight to every belief system?

Ahhh... the brutality symbol notion. Funny enough, Christians believe it to be a symbol of sacrifice and undying love. CS Lewis said it best when asked what separates Christianity from other organize religion, "Grace". Simple enough. The cross doesn't carry any violent meaning to Christians.

The difference is that Wiccans have a plethora of symbols, of which their uses and meanings are apparently varied. The Pentacle doesn't necessarily have to be used in this case. Check out this site. Why not the Horned God? Why not the Cow Goddess?????

How did his wife decide to use the Pentacle? Was there a Wiccan questionnaire? Did that represent him the best? Funny enough... as I mentioned before... no statements that he'd like a Pentacle on his grave were made that we know of.
DTOM.... I believe that she's attempting to make a statement about US government policy by using the media to broadcast this man's sacrifice as if he needs to be the martyr for all Wiccans. If his will said "please put a pentogram on my headstone", I'd imagine the article would've mentioned it.

It would be like a soldier from Southern Alabama stating that he wanted the Swastika and Rebel Flag on his grave because Racism was a part of his religious beliefs, and that white supremacy was a part of who he was. I doubt that the gov't would want to do such. Maybe this lady could agree to put something a little less controversial to show her "wiccan pride" and do honor to her husband... not to make him the poster child of Wiccan-ness...

OH-- and one more thing, something else to mention is that the dog tag argument is nearly meaningless, in that they do ask you when dog tags are issued what religion you happen to be, most importantly in that if there's a chance often a Chaplain will issue last rights and/or offer burial services when needed. Not all soldiers are buried in a military cemetary, and the headstone issue generally comes about after the fact (unfortunately... most soldiers don't talk about what they want on their headstones!).

I'll answer that question with a question. What are the sociological implications of disregarding the wishes of a dead American soldier? What does that say about us as a people? Why shouldn't we give equal weight to every belief system [with the obvious exceptions of those advocating violence]? Especially to people who have given their lives for our freedoms [included in which is the freedom to practice religions freely]. Also, I don't know that you've talked about the Constitutional aspect of this action. How isn't this a violation of the soldiers right to practice religion freely?

CP

And if she was trying to make a political statement, the article might as well have mentioned it. You are still speculating, if not fabricating a belief based only on your pre-ordained opinion.


Very well then, give me a decent reason that a fallen comrade should be allowed a cross on his headstone. If you would not allow a symbol of a religion that is recognized by our legal system, then why allow any? How about if I find the cross controversial? My voice doesn't matter, because I live in a predominately christian nation?
Give me a reason why a cross should be allowed, yet a symbol for Wicca not? If approved, the VA would decide on a single symbol to represent Wicca, so your argument concerning different symbols and uses is moot.


Not meaningless at all, since the stampers of dogtags are required to only inscribe recognized religions. You may not like Wicca, you may not believe Wicca to be a religion, but why are you so adamant against others exercising their god given right to believe in whatever invisible guy they wish to?

aevens176,

I can see you getting a little confused about the wife's motives, as there's no way to find out without talking with her. I'll go with the thing about the pentacle not being the one and only symbol of Wiccan belief. Pentacles also symbolize the Earth (as in Earth Air Water Fire, the four ancient Greek elements). These elements are included in astrology too, so maybe the husband had been an Earth sign. Or maybe it has to do with returning to the Earth, and so the earthly marker should represent the state of turning ashes to ashes, dust to dust. I don't know, but the point is that we are both speculating.

The swastika is a bona fide ancient symbol that shows up in all sorts of cultures. The rebel flag is actually a battle flag. So maybe a swastica, with the bent arms pointing the right way (Hitler reversed the symbol). There are actual religious meanings to the symbol. As far as I know, the only things religious on the rebel battle flag are -- tada! Pentacles.

I'm not aware of a religion that makes white supremacy as one of its principles. If one does exist, then it violates the Civil Rights Act, an amendment to the Constitution, and a mountain of related laws. Ergo, such a religion does not have First Amendment protection.

I might point out that Christianity has more than one symbol too. The one that sticks out is the bleeding heart, which of course has been misused to characterize liberals. I guess we're too Christian for certain Christians. Before decononization (oops, they got it wrong), St. Christopher medals were popular for travelers. They took the protection away, and just look what happened to traffic fatalities (kidding).

I don't think there's anything in the Civil Rights Act or the other laws in the "mountain" you refer to, that prohibits racist religions. Certainly nothing in the amendments to the Constitution does so.

Actually, no, white supremacy as an ideal does not violate the Civil Rights Act or any amendment to the constitution. It simply disagrees with your ideals. Frankly, if someone doesn't like someone due to race, due to height, hair color, or whatever other absurd reason... it's perfectly legal. Furthermore, the only reason it could be illegal is if it infringed on the rights of another American. Being a kook is obviously not illegal....

Furthermore, white supremacists typically do base their ideologies on religious and even biblical ideals... as sick as it may be.

The whole point is that I can only imagine the outpouring of sentiment if we were putting "white power" or any other moniker suggesting such in a national cemetary... This is generally the same idea here with the Penta-whatever-gram/cle, etc. It's association is simply what drives public opinion, right or wrong. I pray that if anything like that were to ever happen to me, that I was moreover remembered as someone that gave my life for my country, not the guy with the wife heck-bent on putting a pentogram on my headstone...

As I see it, christians are all about the constitution and rights, until a religion that may challenge thier supremcy comes along- wiccan is seen as somewhat the polar opposite of Christianity- that is why you see all those other symbols are okay- they don't challenge christianity simply because they are obscure- for instance- this one:

SOKA GAKKAI INTERNATIONAL - USA

You don't hear that one in a fire and brimstone Baptist sermon in the south, now do you? However, the Christian church has condemned through history out right paganism, killing millions of "heretics" and burning at the stake those who practiced wiccan.

If anything, we should take about 50% of every christian churches gross reciepts and give it to the wiccan church as "reparations" for past wrongdoing- if there were any justice in the world anyway.

Bottom line is- Baptists and Catholics and all christian religions have a long history of persecuting Wiccans, and they don't want to have to stop now!

And to actually allow TRUE freedom of religion in this country- well, christians don't seem to like that too much. "There has to be a line drawn somewhere"- why? Why is "church of ninetindo" any less relevent than Baptists? I really don't care how old it is- if the faithful believe it, make it thier wishes to be known as it- Christianity should not be used as a yard stick for thier tombstone!

CR: While I do agree with you in principal, blaming "Christians" is a little much. You're acting like there's a big Christian Council and they take a vote on who to oppress today. Christian churches have their differences and certainly do not work together at all. And it wasn't "the Christians" who prevented this soldier from being buried/memorialized in a manner of his choosing, it was "some Christians" this isn't a Christianity-wide conspiracy. It's a singular act by a group of people with no regard for the First Amendment.

CP

Oh, I don't know about that CP- look at Aevens and Blackstones posts- heavily biased towards Christianity being the supreme religion of our society, so more deserving of rights in our society- just by the preference for THIER sympbols on a headstone, while denying other religions same standing in the cemetary?

It is ALL of US Christian society that allows things like this to occur- if there were any statements of official outrage at the pulpits, condemnations on Sunday- this would be a non-issue- but it is very plain from Aevens post that he is quite okay with denying another religious symbol in this "Christian Nation" graveyard- and in fact, makes a supposition that the widow is making a political statement- making her even less worthy of consideration, and kinda of a backhanded way of making her claim less viable.

Christianity is the dominate religion in this country- and, if you listen to poeple that are okay with dishonoring this soldiers religion- even though his bravery is honored- his religion doesn't deserve it at all- and they are okay with it- because it is not a "mainstream" religion.

I bet you will have a hard time finding a majority of devout christians that have a problem with denying this soldier his relgion- so therefore, I find it very easy to cover Christianity with a blanket on this issue- it is the Christian religious historical "whipping boy"- and there is no movement among christians for freedom for Wiccan religions LOL

Did you know that many Wiccans who enjoy celebrating their religion within a congregation attend the Unitarian Universalist church on a regular basis? Additionally, the Unitarian Universalist Association of Congregations has an independent affiliate called CUUPS (Covenant of Unitarian Universalist Pagans), and it is a 501©3 non-profit dedicated to networking among Wiccans and other branches of paganism. They generally gather at their local Unitarian Church, and it's often a point of contact for solitary Wiccans who want to keep in touch with community events.

You may not realize it, but you probably frequently drive by places of worship for the Wiccan faith.



Most religions involve ritual of some sort. Wiccan practices may have an odd appearance from unknowing perspective, but they're no more bizarre than some of the rituals that appear in "mainstream" religions. In fact, I've noted people from Judeo-Christian traditions that aren't accepting of the rituals that occur within other Judeo-Christian denominations.

However strange and colourful a ritual might be, it really shouldn't make a difference as long as it doesn't violate any laws. People use visuals as tools to get in touch with their own idea of spirituality. It's certainly not centralized to Wicca alone.



The satanic pentagram is inverted, and it's representative of the head of Baphomet. Additionally, it usually appears with the head of the goat within.

The Wiccan pentacle has the point facing to the top. The five points represent earth, water, fire, air, and the spirit. The circle binds them together, and it's representative of the wheel of life.

While the appearance may be similar to an uneducated eye, they are very different symbols visually and in meaning.



Indeed, the varying forms of paganism generally involve reconstruction of ancient traditions, and they are not necessarily historically accurate, but they do have a defined set of beliefs which vary in presentation among the different denominations, not unlike Christianity. Examine the different traditions, and you'll find many similarities, the main ones being the concept of "And it harm none, do as thou will" and some variation of Karma. Most traditions also recognize a god and a goddess, and they all tend to celebrate the same seasonal holidays.



The pentacle is the most commonly recognized symbol of Wicca. There are other symbols, but they vary from tradition to tradition, whereas the pentacle is present in most. For example, the horned god (which also gets confused with Satanism, btw) is a masculine symbol, and it wouldn't be a very good choice for someone who practices Dianic Wicca which centers around the female aspect of spirituality. The cow goddess, on the other hand, is more centered around Dianic wicca, and it wouldn't be appropriate for the majority of the other Wiccan traditions that involve an equal polarity between male & female.



Or perhaps she's disheartened by the idea that her husband's Wiccan faith was recognized in his life, but it's being refused in his death even though Wicca is a legal religion, and it's officially recognized by the military. There's a process in place within the VA to seek approval for this symbol. The article posted by Nebraska29 says that it was impeded by a regulation that required religious groups to list a central authority, which Wicca does not have, but that requirement has been eliminated, and there's no reason why this application should not be processed. There is now a legitimate reason to push this along through the bureaucracy, and that's exactly what should happen. Unfortunately with the government, like any other institution, sometimes you have to jump through hoops to get anything done, and that's what this man's wife is doing to complete the memorial for her husband in the way that she knows he would have wanted it.

How does she know? I can't speak for her, but I certainly know my spouse well enough to know what he wants in life and what he wants in death. I think that most couples discuss this at some point.

And herein lies your prejudice and your fallacy. You claim that the cross means grace to you and other Christians and summarily dismiss my argument that it represents a certian brutality. In the next paragraph, you belittle the use of the Pentacle, which is a bona fide symbol of Wicca and whose symbolism you seem not to understand. because *you* don't understand, it must not have real significance.

That's speculation for another topic as this one deals with the expressed wishes of a man who spilled his blood. Does the first amendment not cover him? Does freedom of religion not ring true for him?



It's religious, it's personal to him, and the government has no place trying to deny his wishes, and that of his family's, simply because some bureaucrat or christian majority wants to choose the symbol for him. That still evades the question as it's clearly a matter of religious freedom being obstructed. Who are you or I to tell him and his family, "no, you can't have that as we think the more appropriate synmbol would be...."



Who wouldn't make it into a political statement if their beliefs were denied? And what's wrong with that? If in America, you are wronged, are you to just take a lump for the team? Rosa Parks was political, and this family is political, the nation will be better off for it.

I find it odd that the same people who say they "support the troops" do not support the troops practicing a religion that is out of the mainstream.

When Sgt. Stewart when to war for this country he went with the American flag probably sewn somewhere on his uniform. The flag is a symbol of something special to most of us, but it's still nothing more than a symbol. The same thing goes for the Wiccan pentacle his wife wants on his headstone.

This is not complicated. The man worshipped the way he wanted to. Would anyone question his right to do so? He defended his country with valor and distinction. As he honored us in life by fighting for the principles of this country, so too should he be honored in death by allowing him to be buried as his family intended without being cowed by the fear of what small-minded religious bigots might say or think.

Sometimes you just Do the Right Thing because it's the right thing to do.

Speculation. The VA hasn't offered an explanation for the delay, all we have is the speculations of individuals disgruntled over the delay as to the cause, and the individuals in question are from groups that in recent years have ground many an axe with "some Christians" (aka conservative Christians).

Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by incompetence.
We are, after all, talkin about the VA here...

BD,

Agreed, however never excuse the behavior of an organization on the grounds of incompetence.

The arguments so far against the Wiccan symbol add up to: Don't understand it, so disallow or dismiss the situtation; It ain't mainstream; The VA is incompetent (and don't fight city hall). In the background is that Wiccan beliefs are evil.

Victoria's post shed some light on this last thing about being evil. It's simply a wrong take on the situation. What is evil, or better put, unconstitutional is the suppression of one religion by another.

aevans176 maintains that one can believe anything one wants and enjoy constitutional protection. The problem with this is when the belief in question results in actions that are unconstitutional, so I'll go along with the belief without action. The VA has taken an action by denying the wishes of the widow of a fallen vet. This action is unconstitutional.

Incompetence does not change this fact.

A grave marker should reflect the wishes ot the deceased and what's important to the deceased, not what the Department of Defense wants. While it might be necessary to draw a fine line, that is highly subjective.

While Americans seem obsessed with the presidency, it was not one of the three items Thomas Jefferson wanted on his grave stone. While Jefferson’s stone mentions the “Virginia Statute of Religious Liberty” as an accomplishment, there is nothing about Jefferson’s specific religious beliefs.



http://www.npg.si.edu/exh/travpres/jeff1s.htm

I would argue several points on this thread. Engravings on a grave stone could be anything, whether or not religious. If a Christian wants a cross that’s fine. If someone wants another Christian symbol—the dove—that’s fine too. Imagine the irony of a dove engraved grave marker in a military cemetery.

I would also suggest that engravings do not have to be religious at all. There is currently a company manufacturing urns and caskets with major league baseball logos.



http://www.y108.ca/station/blog_mike.cfm?bid=1215

If someone wants a baseball, football or auto racing logo on the stone, I find no problem with that.

Personally, I would like the words of Henry Wadsworth Longfellow (edited to add: another Unitarian) from The Day is Done inscribed on mine.



http://www.bartleby.com/102/65.html

Now I know some would argue that we have to draw a fine line somewhere. Anywhere would be arbitrary, but PE’s statement, linked below, here seems as good a subjective line as I’ve seen.

http://www.americasdebate.com/forums/index...st&p=191109

Cyan your post linked below is beautiful.

http://www.americasdebate.com/forums/index...st&p=191212

I consider myself Unitarian and am happy that you provided the CUUPS link and the openness of the UUA.

Even here we have some controversy. In May, 2004 Texas Comptroller, Carole Keeton Strayhorn, now and Independent candidate for Governor of Texas, tried to lift the tax exemption of a Unitarian church because she didn’t think they had defined beliefs. The decision was quickly reversed.



http://www.window.state.tx.us/news/40524church.html

One of the problems with this thread is the difficulty defining what religion is and what it isn’t. Strayhorn's blunder clearly illustrates this. Only in Texas.

So, to answer the questions directly:

1.)Is the first amendment rights of the fallen soldier being violated in refusing to allow the inscription of his preferred religious symbol on his tombstone?

Yes

2.)To what extent should court cases involving Wiccan religious rights in prisons affect this decision?

I’m not sure how to answer this.

3.)What are the reasons, if any, for denying the soldier's request and that of his family?

Prejudice? Bigotry? I think some people are just looking for an excuse to exhibit it.

I'd like to add my own thoughts to some of the comments that have been made.

Aevans176 - July 5th 2006 @6:32 AM

However, I can see why the VA wouldn't want the Wiccan Pentacle on the gravestone, as most people would just believe it to be a pentogram and associated with Satanism or someother "non-mainstream" religion.

It all comes back to the idea that most people in America associate themselves with Christianity, and Wiccans (even at the 130,000 number that I can't really verify) aren't really mainstream. We don't drive down mainstreet and see "wiccan" churches, etc. There is a certain amount of intolerance to what most Americans believe to be "cult-like" religions, and I believe "Wiccans" really fall into this category.

You have to understand that Wiccans use "spells" and "charms", which is normally viewed as Harry Potter-type notion in general.

So how does this relate to the topic? I suppose freedom of religion is as important as any other "American" value. However, I believe that it should be the earnest responsibility of the soldier(s) not-prescribing to a well-established religion to ensure that their wishes can be carried out prior to them joining the service and/or during their tenure.

I disagree with the idea that, because Wicca is not a "mainstream" religion (and the use of "mainstream" is a bit subjective, I mean, is Judaism mainstream in America? Is Buddhism?), that the soldier and family in question should have to take it upon themselves to make sure the final plans of that shoulder don't spook anyone else with loved ones interred.



Intellectual apathy or the blatant refusal to seek outside perspective about another faith is no excuse to deny this man his final wishes. If people think he was a Satanist, well, that's their problem. And if people don't agree with his faith, that's fine, but it doesnt make it any less true to that man and it should be respected. What you or I believe or think about his faith is irrelevant. He and his believe in it and his wishes should be carried out.

Also...Wicca and Magick are way more established and much older than Christianity. If anything, the Catholics can tell you that for a fact....


Aevans176 on July 5th @11:49 AM

First of all, this soldier (as far as we know) didn't ask that a pentacle (pentogram) or penta-whatever be put on his grave... so what's the deal? According to this site, there are more symbols than the Pentacle. Why not that?

I find your comments about a "penta-whatever" rather telling. iscounting his faith By refusing to seek answers And there are more symbols for Christianity than a crucifix. How about the original symbol, the fish? What about the Chi Rho (the inverted Greek letters that resemble a P and X)?

Aevans176 on July 5th @ 11:49 AM

I find it interesting that the there is a large component of American society that believes they should deny the notion that they live in a predominantly Christian society and its impact on our culture.

I find it more interesting that the aforementioned fact somehow legitimizes a violation of a government agency...a government agency that is not supposed to show preference to one faith or another.

The fact that America is over 80% Christian does not give the government the right to deny someone their rights. No one will argue that Judeo-Christian beliefs have permeated american society, but this is not a Christian government. This is not a theocracy. This government, while made up of individuals with personal beliefs, is a secular, or at the very least non-preferential enitity which is built, in part, on the tenet of religious tolerance and respect.

Aevans176 on July 5th at 1:20 PM


Ahhh... the brutality symbol notion. Funny enough, Christians believe it to be a symbol of sacrifice and undying love. CS Lewis said it best when asked what separates Christianity from other organize religion, "Grace". Simple enough. The cross doesn't carry any violent meaning to Christians.

The difference is that Wiccans have a plethora of symbols, of which their uses and meanings are apparently varied. The Pentacle doesn't necessarily have to be used in this case. Check out this site. Why not the Horned God? Why not the Cow Goddess?????

So lemme get this right. Because Christians believe their symbol "oozes love", it's acceptable for it to be used. But because many see a pentacle as something it is not, even though Wiccans see their symbols as Christians see theirs, it's not acceptable?

Again, why not the fish....why not the Chi Rho?

Aevans 176

It would be like a soldier from Southern Alabama stating that he wanted the Swastika and Rebel Flag on his grave because Racism was a part of his religious beliefs, and that white supremacy was a part of who he was. I doubt that the gov't would want to do such. Maybe this lady could agree to put something a little less controversial to show her "wiccan pride" and do honor to her husband... not to make him the poster child of Wiccan-ness...

Funny, I don't see the connection, seeing as how youre giving examples of political symbols. To draw a connection between a swastika and a pentacle is borderline offensive, IMO.

I could go on, but for teh sake of time, I'll sum up my opinion with this:

Because you don't agree with it, doesn't mean it's worth any less to someone else. And as a government section that is supposed to not show preference to any one faith, and as they are supposed to take care of ALL veterans, this decision digusts me.

I will not allow ignorance or bias to be an excuse to deny someone's rights. I'm this far from writing a letter.... who wants in with me?

Thankfully, it would appear that 'mainstream' christians, at least through their publications, don't have an issue with letting SGT Stewart have his faith placed on his headstone. I for one still cannot fathom opposition to this act. From the magazine Christianity Today:


Link

True, but being mainstream is not a qualification for religious identity. Indeed, the word mainstream does not appear anywhere in the First Amendment.
First Amendment

That information is available from the U.S. Census Bureau where it can be found as an Excel document under the heading Self-Described Religious Identification of Adult Population: 1990 and 2001.
U.S. Census Bureau - Statistical Abstract
Interestingly enough, Wicca was the religion exhibiting the greatest growth between 1990 and 2001, by a multiplication factor of 16.75. The next closest "clearly identifiable denomination" was Deity with an eightfold increase, and Sikh with fourfold. Also curious is the fact that the number of Wiccans exceeds that of the Native American Church, Baha'i, Eckankar, Sikh, and Humanists — all of which are allowed their symbols by the Veterans Administration. Additionally, the VA allows symbols for some religions so obscure as to not even be represented in the census results (e.g., Konko-Kyo Faith, Tenrikyo Church, Seicho-No-Ie, Izumo Taishakyo Mission of Hawaii, and Soka Gakkai International-USA).

True. But the lack of an edifice does not equate to a lack of religion. Wiccans often conduct their ceremonies out of doors as a tribute their devotion to nature, and many are solitaires who celebrate their rituals at home.

This is a free country, and you are certainly entitled to that belief. Indeed, you will likely have a significant amount of company. There are also those who consider Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Quakers, and Christian Scientists cults — just to name a few. However, since the U.S. Government accepts Wicca (as well as Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Quakers, and Christian Scientists) as a bona fide religion, the Wicca-is-a-cult viewpoint won't hunt.
Cultwatch
American Religion - Cultwatch
Cultic Studies
Balaam's *** - Cult Watch

and
No, Wiccan spells are not "the same" as prayers, but neither are they completely dissimilar (as you noted in that final quote). "Typically, a spell is a symbolic representation of the purported effect performed under the invocation of a deity. It can even be an unwilling instantaneous action with no specific shape." Wikipedia - Spells
"Prayer is an active effort to communicate with a deity or spirit, including a monotheist God, Saints, gods within a pantheon, or others; either to offer praise, to make a request, or simply to express one's thoughts and emotions. The words of the prayer may either be a set hymn or incantation, or a spontaneous utterance in the devotee's own words." Wikipedia - Prayer

Regarding charms, how different are they from patron saint medals?

and

Dontreadonme offered a link to the VA approved symbols, but here it is again for your convenience: VA approved religious symbols. You might notice the profusion of different styles of crosses — all Christian. Should all Christians be required to choose a Presbyterian, or Methodist, or Greek Orthodox cross rather than the simple cross (the first in the list) if they so desire? The pentacle is a symbol common among most Wiccans and Pagans. Why should they be required to use something else?

Bikerdad, would you mind elaborating on that comment, please. What are the structural elements that define a religion?

Guy, or in this case, most likely an invisible gal.

Paganism, Magic(k), and Witchcraft are likely as old as time, but Wicca itself is a relatively new religion, born in the early- to mid-twentieth century. Some claim that it resurrects the "Old Religion" in an unbroken line, but most scholars agree that there is no proof of that.

Hmmm. I hate to disagree with your supportive post, but it's not completely correct. Yes, Satanists use a pentagram with a single point down, but some Wiccans do as well; it is associated with Second Degree students in some traditions, it is used "For Channelling Higher Energy Into Material Manifestation," and can be "used ... to represent the male energy of the God."
Inverted pentragram pendant
About Wicca and Spirituality - Inverted Pentagram
Wikipedia - Pentagram

Curiously, the pentagram has been used in Christianity in the past as well. "The pentagram was associated with the five wounds of Christ, and because it could be drawn in one continuous movement of the pen, the Alpha and the Omega as one. " About Alternative Religions and Religious Tolerance.

Even more curious, to my mind, are these uses of an "evil" "inverted" pentagram: The Order of the Eastern Star Eastern Star, and — are you ready for this? Are you sure? The U.S. Medal of Honor!!! In light of this very discussion topic, that one just cracks me up!
Medal of Honor and Medal of Honor

Just an update in this week's edition of the Army Times......The State of Nevada approved a Wiccan symbol on SGT Patrick Stewart's memorial plaque in one of the state's veterans cemetary's. The effort to persuade the Veterans Administration to endorse an official Wiccan symbol however, is still pending.

Just thought that I would share an update on this:

Use of Wiccan Symbol on Veterans’ Headstones Is Approved

IMO, this is very good news.