The 'Wanton GI Abuse' thread inspired me to start this one. Bikerdad posted this link indicating that crime rates for this war are lower than any other. There has always seemed to be the perception that US soldiers behave especially badly. This is true in Okinawa, and recently Trouble posted a reference to GI crime in South Korea. The opinion trend seems to be twofold; first, our troops commit vast crime against the (usually comparatively peaceful) host populations, and two they are never held accountable. Are these perceptions accurate? I'll add some evidence to back my argument here before I am inundated (I might not be able to get back for a while, busy day..):

When I lived in Korea (mid-nineties), I found that during this timeframe statistics for soldier crime rates in the media included traffic violations, which accounted for approximately 70 percent of the “crime”. Korea is one of the very worst places to drive in the world so these numbers didn't surprise me. What did suprise me was the portrayal by the media of such statistics as proof of wanton criminality. Recently, overall GI crime rates have gone down in South Korea and I believe it has a lot to do with the fact that most driving privileges have been revoked. Furthermore, statistics for on-base crimes in media accounts are generally combined with off-base, and sexual offenses (which the writer leads the reader to perceive as violent sexual crimes against Koreans) include within-service fraternization charges (which often make up the majority of cases).

Now, do our forces never commit crimes? Are they all angels? Of course not, they are human beings, but I do feel they are being unfairly represented. Also, I can only respond to recent crime rates. I have no opinion on what went on thirty or more years ago, this isn’t a history debate.
Here are the statistics for 2004-2005 for off-base crime only (a number you won’t often see) for example. This is all USFK personnel…about 50,000 individuals.



To juxtapose, Yonhap News reported on September 2005, that “an average of 23 criminal incidents take place every day in the South Korean military, a total of 37,000 criminal cases have been reported from 2001 to July this year.” According to the Defense ministry a total of 7,777 crimes were committed by South Korean soldiers last year including 2,120 violent crimes. South Korean forces committed 2,120 violent crimes the same year that our forces committed 57 special crimes. I'll add this blogger (living in south Korea) opinion piece on this issue as well, for which the reader can form his/her own conclusions but it offers links and a statistical background perspective.

Next, Okinawa figures. SOFA members make up about 5 percent of the population (comparing figures for only average age and gender likely to commit crime would swing this in the direction more favorable to servicemembers, a ratio of 1:8) and are responsible for an average of one percent of all criminal cases in the ten year 1991-2001 period.

I'll place the question here, knowing I have offered only background to support my own contentions. I do this because the internet is so innundated with the other perspective it is very easy to find. IN fact, I seldom ever see that perspective challenged as I am doing here:

Is there a false, inflated perspective placed on GI crime rates, particularly overseas, or are perceptions accurate? Does the above surprise you or confirm your suspicions? Additional thoughts?

Is there a false, inflated perspective placed on GI crime rates, particularly overseas, or are perceptions accurate?

I think the perceptions are overblown, as you have suggested.

Let's look at it statistically. For example, in the United States, there were 200 violent crimes arrests per 100,000 population in 2004. Source: FBI Given that, we would expect 100 violent crimes amongst the 50,000 troops in Korea. For property crimes (theft, burglary) the crime rate is 565.8 per 100,000. You can see the rate among the troops is much lower.

Add to this the fact that young people are more likely to commit crime than older people. The armed forces are, by and large, young people. You would expect an even greater rate of crime among young people. For example, half of all violent crime is committed by people aged 18-34 (the approximate age range of US soldiers). Males commit 75% of all crimes. Males make up the bulk of US military personnel.

US soldiers are not saints--most people aren't. However, they know that discipline and justice await them if they step out of line. Some still do--the vast majority do not.

Is there a false, inflated perspective placed on GI crime rates, particularly overseas, or are perceptions accurate?

I think the perspective is somewhat inflated, but as with all false or perceived figures, it's next to impossible to say by how much. In a similar way, it's impossible to know how many terrorists there are in the world, or how many illegal immigrants are in a particular country. To use Donald Rumsfeld's idea, there are just too many unknowns, both known and unknown.

However, I think that I know at least one reason why foreign people, and foreign media, might perceive American service crime against local cilivians as more widespread or serious:

• Foreign service personnel are inevitably a small minority in any host community. Any crimes they are known to commit are therefore more unusual and more newsworthy. And, because so few locals have personal contact (through them being stationed on enclosed bases or the like), most people are ignorant about what they are like, so it's easy to believe almost anything about them, good or bad.
• If the host population didn't invite the presence of foreign troops, or it has been there so long as to be forgotten, they might be more hostile and suspicious than welcoming and trusting, so thy're more likely to believe bad myths (and pick up on bad facts) than good ones
• If the foreign military demands that the transgressions of their own personnel be dealt with under their own system of justice, or is lackadaisical or obstructive in rendering foreign suspects over to the host justice system if domestic or military justice does not demand precedence, it can further alienate host populations or governments.

Part of this is inevtiable when stationing military personnel overboard. And the almost necessarily (or at least, to be expected) hostility of locals should not blind us to the fact that our service personnel can and do break the laws of their host countries. Regardless of whether those laws even apply at home. I don't know that there's much America could do about this, other than be more open and trusting of local law enforcement - if they present a prima facie case, it should be generally accepted that charges should be brought by the local justice system. Unless on active combat duty, the full constitutional rights of US citizens, whether in uniform or not, should, where possible, be waived in favour of whatever the local conditions are. (Please not eht eunderlined section.)

IMO the “crime rate” of our soldiers is overblown. As shown here the “crime rate” is far lower than one would expect in our own country. People are not perfect by neither do we have “wanton” disregard for law.

On the other hand I feel the despicable deeds of the enemy have received far less attention than they deserve. Civilians tortured and beheaded alive, soldiers tortured and mutilated beyond recognition. These horrible acts receive little attention and outrage. It seems we expect, and therefore tolerate, this behavior from the enemy.

in reality less than 3% of the crimes are even brought to our attention ,and of those there is a concerted effort to deny them and the remaining crimes will only be admited to by the army that have a perponderance of evidenece to back them up
Of the crimes I have seen with my own eyes were the ransacking of former palaces the ripping apart of
gold on the doors of a palace the ransacking and stealing of the artifacts of a museum
and also the desicration of items deemed holy to the muslims
of these crimes I know about excluding the ones in the news
to say muslims did them would be a gross misunderstanding of the situation
and I am not a muslim
the clear intentions of the Americans was to commit crimes and to do so with full backing of their govt.
you would be hard pressed to say the troops would be otherwise inclined
as their own Govt' commited crimes against humanity in the first place
to argue that the morals of American troops would be valiant and holy is a total denial of your nature
and history
of the deserters from the American army that are trying to get into canada on refugee status there are tails of utter madness the likes that will shock the most hardned war veteran tales of
being told to actually murder civilians woman and children by their commanders in cold blood in front of the commander
should these be true recolections and acurate accounts I would say there was a total break down in the
command structure
indeed ABU garib (*sic*) tells us of a total decay of moral fiber in the command structure
that bush and dumbsfell would go on international tv and say we do not stand for torture and then to
fight the senate demanding torture be legal it is a total story in and of itself of how there corrupt ways have finally made them blind

Are all of these examples purely anecdotal, or do you have any evidence with which to back them up?
The only tales like the last of your's I have quoted, have been spewed by debunked and discredited posers such as Jimmy Massey and Jesse MacBeth.

although I do not have precise numbers for crimes commited nor does anyone have them as it is a transient figue that we can never know
but when forming an aproximation of them in your own mind you would have to take into account how law enforcement says that they can not even solve most crimes
and also then going back and looking at the veterans own recollections of previous wars
and the written accounts of these records of law enforcement and military actions of the past 100 years and extrapolate from there
No I confess I did not do so but to do so would suggest my numbers not to be very far from the right answer
a good example is when a soldier shoots a civilian boy age 12 in cold blood and when his commanders asked him about it and he declared it was self defense he reached into his pocket this would be grounds for dismissal of all charges in the matter even though the crime was commited
only the crimes with a perponderance of evidence would be moved to the courts
which you will agree I am sure is a very hard thing to get( perponderance evidence)
in a war theatre
as well we know vietnam and its war crimes were just the tip of the iceburg that was reported to the people
back home
first of all there is motive for the armed forces to cover such cases that are damaging to their goals
secondly few men would have the morals and fiber of being to go against their comrades in arms to report the crimes
especially if those men were of the natl gaurd and not the regular forces
seals and rangers would be less inclined to commit these crimes unless given direct orders to do so
as they are trained as professional soldiers ( hopefully)
A good Example Is the Canadian army which is strictly a regular force which has its training based on the geneva conventions and regorously trained for their mission
rounding up the paint ball association of america ( The Natl Gaurd ) and sending them to IRAQ Is not like sending the canadian crack troops into war or the navy seals or rangers
they are not given the same training
the Natl gaurd is no better than conscripts certainly far from what a crack devision of regulars would be like
now looking to the streets of America and then looking into the streets of Canda and one can see that
the moral fiber of the people are not exactly equal
with all these factors in place it is easy to come to the conclusion that not more than 3% of the crimes comited are ever going to see the light of day much less be reported back to the people of the United States
that is why countries like Canada france germany Do not view war as gung ho as America does
these days
War is hell the people that fight it will be returning broken both in mind and spirit the nightmares will haunt them for the rest of their lives
those that commit those inhumane crimes against humnity can not be understood by young people
or even by those that never comit the crimes against civilians
For those that did do those murderings and thefts however there is a special -place reserved
as they get older they will be haunted to their graves go insane or commit suicide
that is the nature of men that they must eventually find peace
That the crimes are happening is not in doubt the reasons for them happening is that
America has sent the natl gaurd into a war theatre with a minimal traing which was clearly stated and the geneva convention will be apart of the training in the future as was mentioned recently in the news
it is not the failing of these mens morals as much as it is the failing of the american culture and govt training for these troops
that the people of Iraq are commiting autorcites is beyond doubt
which side is on higher moral ground I would have to side with the iraqi people here
as it is America that is the agressor
if russians attacked America with troops would you not be rightfull in the same tactics the iraqis use to defend your own country should your standing army no longer exist issues such as these have no easy answers to those that formulate easy answers to them to justify the means and to consol their dogmas
I say this
while your decendants return from war broken of both spirit and mind look not for the easy road but take the long hard road and hold a banner high and declare never ever again lest we forget our need for inner peace before we meet our maker
and remember that those that fight the hardest among you for peace are not your youth who know nothing of these matters but the want for adventure but it is your most highest decorated soldiers and veterans
that fought the hardest campaigns of your wars that the knowing is instilled and the lessons learned
not the supply sargents but your most highest decorated veterans that fight for peace
not your president not your senators and not your elites for they did not see the horrors they did not feel their soul fed upon by those horrors it is the meakest among you that are the knowing of these matters

Then why quote 'less than 3%'? You have just admitted you cannot know the even a ballpark number.


Well, I am sure that the members of the National Guard are quite fond of your sentiments some of whom are members of . Are you at all aware of what training the National Guard is given? Or what yardstick by which you would measure a 'crack' division? Are you aware that it was 'crack' Canadian Paratroopers who were responsible for several abuses and murders in Somalia. Are you aware that the majority of the cases of rape and murder in Iraq have been committed by members of 'crack' divisions of regulars?

BTW, the Canadian Army is comprised or regulars and reserves, the reserves numbering just under half. So it is not strictly a regular force.

The canadian Army has no devision or brigade or even a squad of reseves in a war theatre your summation fails to reflect this there may be reseves in battle but they do not make up any group but are rather components that operate with the regulars
for instance there is no group of Canadian fighters that are resevists that comprise even a sqaud that is left to do battle on its own apart from duties on Canadain soil

If there are natl gaurd members here I am sure their egos are not such that they are misinformed as to the
nature of what a reseve unit is and what a ranger unit is they can't be that misinformed you do them an injustice SIR
you have Either failed to read my post thoroughly or have misunderstood it's content
the natl gaurd will now incorporate the geneva conventions into its regular training which was recently announced in the news after the autrocites were brought to light recently
this was in the news recently So we do know the training in the past was not adequate
the rigorous training that you mention for the natl gaurd would make a navy seal,ranger snicker in disbelief
and your comment about the somali incident further bolsters my statement that we will not know even 3% of the crimes
the crimes at abu garib are not even fully known as of yet by the american people

let alone the crimes in the back alleys of falujah
that they will be covered up and lost in the dust of war that is no doubt a reality
so yes 3% is erroneous to say the least but is effective to show that all those crimes are not commited without at least a ball park figure being attached to them
in any case those veterans of all the wars know you can not expect young people to know these things
they see war as an adventure untill they are faced with the horrors and have to live with them
untill their spirits die within them such is the nature of war for those that know the young know nothing of such matters

Rangers, or soldiers that join elite units or forces are typically active duty. they train all year and typically they have a larger budget to train on with respects to more equipment and terrain. So no, you really cannot compare the two because the simple reality is a majority of national guard soldiers get one weekend a month and two weeks a year in training. I also think its a gross mistake to think that you can train them up in a few months and send them in along side the marines or whatever.

Could the national guard be different, I bet it sure could, I do not fully agree with allowing people that were never regular active duty to join the reserves in a combat role, should really only be support and people coming off active duty having incentives to join a reserve component in a combat role, and of course more funded realistic training would be nice, perhaps even training to standard with there active brethren would be nice.

As for war crimes, I never really bought into the idea of war being ‘moral” period or morality for that matter, so for the crimes part, yes I am sure they happen, I am sure when under to much stress for to long soldiers do things they normally would not such as commit suicide. As for war crimes and morality I cant really find any taking place in the insurgency either, I mean mass car bombings of civilians hardly sounds moral in any fiber or regard I can think of.

Iraq could be a rich nation, but America made mistakes and now Iraq seems to have slipped into a civil war, I don’t really know what you can do about that part.

I'm sorry, now you have confused me.....what rigorous training did I mention??? I recall asking you if you knew what training National Guard and Reserve units undergo when at Mobilization Station. To which, you failed to answer.


How?


What crimes in what back alleys? If you have compelling evidence of crimes committed by US soldiers, why don't you share that data with us instead of vague implications?

Time to correct some misconceptions about the National Guard.

All members of the National Guard have gone through Basic and some form of MOS training. All.

National Guard units have frequently perofrmed better than Regular Army units on a variety of missons, including combat units. They have also frequently performed worse.

Guard units spend more than 1 weekend a month and 2 weeks in the summer training. Many of the weekends are 3 day (about 3 per year), and many units will have extended and/or "additional" deployments. This was the case long before 9/11.

There are Reserve Component (Guard and/or Reserve) Special Forces units. They spend a LOT of time training, both individually and as units.

National Guard units are generally better suited for missions such as the current environment in Iraq where "kicking butt and taking names" is no longer the top order of the day. Guard units usually have a much wider range of skills represented in their ranks, they have explicit, ongoing training in dealing with civilians (something only the Military Police and Special Forces get in the Active Component), and they usually have a significant number of personnel who "work" their mission in civilian life.

During my time in a NG MP company, we had FBI agents, US Marshals, Highway Patrol (from 3 different states), county mounties (6 different counties), corrections officers (Federal, state, county and city), bailiffs, and city police officers from another half dozen cities in our unit. Believe me, no active duty Military Police company ever had such a breadth of experience to draw on.

Now, regarding the question of what do Reserve Component units do during the Mobilization Period?

1) Train. Some of it is refresher training, some is new training dependent on the specific mission the unit will be tasked with.
2) Shots, wills, insurance, pay, physicals, etc, etc, etc... all the administrative stuff necessary to get folks on their way.
3) Supply. Bring the unit up to full equipment levels, replace old gear where possible, etc.
4) "Gel".
5) Pack up.

rambler

It seems you are confused and have obvious bias against US soldiers. You should also consider a new translation program.

Do you have any numbers or figure's to say that US soldiers have a higher tendency to commit violent crimes than the general population? It has been fairly well established that US soldiers actually tend to commit less crimes than the general US population, which is most likely due to the discipline instilled in most soldiers. If you have an issue with the numbers, fine... explain how they are not a good representation of the subject.

Most of the horrible crimes committed in Iraq are by Iraqi's and other people with middle eastern origin. Everyday tortured mutilated bodies turn up. The numbers are in the hundreds every week. Beheadings and car bombings are a common practice among Al-Qaida.

Yes it's true the NG does not receive nearly as much training as the regulars until they are activated and in my old platoons (I have recently been transferred to a homeland security unit that is quite active on drill days) we did do alot of sitting around. That doesn't make an environment as to why they would tend to commit war crimes more than regulars. There are also those that are in the Active Guard Reserve (AGR) who conduct their job on a daily basis just like the regulars.