Full Version: War in the Middle East: Re-re-mix
KivrotHaTaavah my friend,
The intent of my post is to show the support Hezbollah enjoys is real and sincere. There is no coerciveness in their relationship with the Lebanese people. This places much needed insight when people decry them as 'monsters'. The better question is, "monsters to whom"?
I kept my reply short and if you find any error with it, please consult wikipedia.
And of coarse people are going to condemn the attacks. Even Noam Chomsky backed them on principle but chastised them on follow through because of the destabilizing implications. The point was he wasn't condeming the institution he was condemning the act. Lebanon has moved 10 years back and all the work Hezbollah has done with regards to infrastructure in the community has been undone through their foolish actions. That is the difference.
The goal the Arab community have is for Israel get around to defining their borders, and actions such as those demonstrated by Hezbollah have once again put a 50 year problem back on the shelf. We need clarification not buffer zones and land grabs.
The intent of my post is to show the support Hezbollah enjoys is real and sincere. There is no coerciveness in their relationship with the Lebanese people. This places much needed insight when people decry them as 'monsters'. The better question is, "monsters to whom"?
I kept my reply short and if you find any error with it, please consult wikipedia.
And of coarse people are going to condemn the attacks. Even Noam Chomsky backed them on principle but chastised them on follow through because of the destabilizing implications. The point was he wasn't condeming the institution he was condemning the act. Lebanon has moved 10 years back and all the work Hezbollah has done with regards to infrastructure in the community has been undone through their foolish actions. That is the difference.
The goal the Arab community have is for Israel get around to defining their borders, and actions such as those demonstrated by Hezbollah have once again put a 50 year problem back on the shelf. We need clarification not buffer zones and land grabs.
QUOTE(Trouble @ Jul 19 2006, 02:10 AM) 
KivrotHaTaavah my friend,
The intent of my post is to show the support Hezbollah enjoys is real and sincere. There is no coerciveness in their relationship with the Lebanese people. This places much needed insight when people decry them as 'monsters'. The better question is, "monsters to whom"?
I kept my reply short and if you find any error with it, please consult wikipedia.
And of coarse people are going to condemn the attacks. Even Noam Chomsky backed them on principle but chastised them on follow through because of the destabilizing implications. The point was he wasn't condeming the institution he was condemning the act. Lebanon has moved 10 years back and all the work Hezbollah has done with regards to infrastructure in the community has been undone through their foolish actions. That is the difference.
The goal the Arab community have is for Israel get around to defining their borders, and actions such as those demonstrated by Hezbollah have once again put a 50 year problem back on the shelf. We need clarification not buffer zones and land grabs.
Noam Chomsky has announced his support for any group that going around murdering Israelis, again so what?
"The goal the Arab community have is for Israel get around to defining their borders" Is that so, perhaps you could offer some sort of proof of this statement, because this is not what they have ever said. The stated goal of the Arab community is the elimination of the State of Israel.
If the United States not only allowed militias to form, arm, and say launch rockets at Mexico and then defend those actions, I would be willing to bet a considerable chunk of change on the world considering that to be an act of war on the part of the United States. Only when it comes to Israel is it not considered as such.
QUOTE(moif)
Responsibility starts at home. Yes Iran and Syria are deeply involved. I have no doubt about that, but the responsibility for Lebanon rests with Lebanon and her people and thebottom line is, if Lebanon really wanted to, they could easily get help to rid themselves of Hezbollah.
Their problem is, they can't, because Hezbollah has too strong a base of suport in the Lebanese population. The funding and support from Syria and Iran don't change that.
Their problem is, they can't, because Hezbollah has too strong a base of suport in the Lebanese population. The funding and support from Syria and Iran don't change that.
I really wish you would have addressed my point about Hariri, do you remember him? I think his story is very important and relevant to understanding how Hezbollah exists in Lebanon.
QUOTE(Trouble)
I'm going to have add a clarification to you statement Bucket. Hezbollah is not the Lebanese government. It does not rule Lebanon. Hezbollah is the militia organization founded in 1982 in response to Israel's invasion of Lebanon. Hezbollah defeated the Israeli army and drove out the Israeli soldiers six years ago.
The question as to why they have remained can be answered in two parts. One, they have two participating members in the Lebanese government, and have gained support by setting up schools, hospitals and social structure. This is how they maintain their populism.
The second reason is since they originally were a militia intended to drive out Israel, their presence might be considered as a precautionary measure against future attack. Either way, I am confident there is enough sympathy from the Lebanese people to house, hide, and feed them until the current crisis blows over.
The question becomes, will Israel send a standing army to occupy to prevent Hezbollah members from returning? If this is the case I can't see it being well accepted and will be required to stay there for an extended duration.
I guess what I am saying is if there are signs within Lebanon asking for the significant return of Hezbollah, as with the case of Iraqi Prime Minister Maliki, calling them a monster may be somewhat one sided.
The question as to why they have remained can be answered in two parts. One, they have two participating members in the Lebanese government, and have gained support by setting up schools, hospitals and social structure. This is how they maintain their populism.
The second reason is since they originally were a militia intended to drive out Israel, their presence might be considered as a precautionary measure against future attack. Either way, I am confident there is enough sympathy from the Lebanese people to house, hide, and feed them until the current crisis blows over.
The question becomes, will Israel send a standing army to occupy to prevent Hezbollah members from returning? If this is the case I can't see it being well accepted and will be required to stay there for an extended duration.
I guess what I am saying is if there are signs within Lebanon asking for the significant return of Hezbollah, as with the case of Iraqi Prime Minister Maliki, calling them a monster may be somewhat one sided.
I never claimed Hezbollah was the Lebanese government. I think your ideas why they have remained miss many factors. Look to Syria and Iran and once again please, please remember Hariri. How quickly and easily we all forget!
You have to remember how fractured the Lebanese are to begin with, they have THE largest population of Christians in the whole ME. You have to remember what era Hezbollah was born into, the success and strength of the Iranian Revolution. And you have to remember that Israel has only ever distracted them from their one true goal for Lebanon...
"The solution to Lebanon's problems is the establishment of an Islamic republic as only this type of regime can secure justice and equality for all of Lebanon's citizens."
I guess desiring peace, a pluralist society and tolerance of others is considered one side of this conflict, but it is the side I will always choose to stand on.
bucket. You'll have to help me out here... 
...whats the point your making? That Israel is wrong to attack a defencless state? that the Lebanese are without complicity?
I don't see how Hariri's death gets Lebanon off the hook really... If anything it ought to emphasise to the Lebanese who their enemy really is, but it seems to have almost the other effect. Hezbollah is just as popular now as it ever was. With or without Syrian troops in Lebanon.
QUOTE(bucket)
This is true to an extent, but you must remember the last time Hezbollah started such trouble for Lebanon a civil war erupted. Yes Hezbollah is supported within Lebanon itself, but not entirely throughout the state. There are many who oppose it and it's supporters, and look where it usually gets them, remember Hariri?
Lebanon has been occupied for years, the UN recognizes this but it is also a domestic threat, you can not forget that.
Lebanon has been occupied for years, the UN recognizes this but it is also a domestic threat, you can not forget that.
...whats the point your making? That Israel is wrong to attack a defencless state? that the Lebanese are without complicity?
I don't see how Hariri's death gets Lebanon off the hook really... If anything it ought to emphasise to the Lebanese who their enemy really is, but it seems to have almost the other effect. Hezbollah is just as popular now as it ever was. With or without Syrian troops in Lebanon.
Trouble:
I have absolutely no doubt that some of the Lebanese support received by Hezbollah is genuine and sincere [while some others provide grudging support under coercion/duress and some others oppose Hezbollah, with this last consisting of active and passive opposition]. But how does the genuine and sincere support help them? I have absolutely no doubt that those non-Germans who became part and parcel of the Third Reich and the Nazi machine were genuine and sincere, but the Third Reich and the Nazi machine were nonetheless a monster. And if you join souls with a monster, well, you get the point. And as always, each one of us need make that determination for ourselves. And if some Lebanese want to buddy up with Hezbollah then so be it, as that is their right, but they need to recognize, as is obvious, that such buddying-up might very well cost them dearly, given Hezbollah's attitude and actions towards Israel and some others.
And, yes, it is not so pleasant to watch the revived Lebanese state be destroyed. But what was the alternative, at least from the Israeli point of view?
And, sorry, but nothing more false could ever be said than that Israel could somehow hope to prevent the success of a Lebanese state. And what I mean by that is not that Israel could not destroy Lebanon, since as we can all see, they could do so if they so desired. What I mean is that if no one in Lebanon was trying to destroy the state of Israel and the Lebanese were simply minding their own success, Israel would not object to the same and so would not act to hinder or destroy the Lebanese state and whatever success that its citizenry were able to achieve. And that's our reality. But the problem and the tragedy here is simply that, as always, it is easier to hate when you believe that the other hates you, with that the problem, and the tragedy being that the Israelis don't hate Lebanon and the Lebanese people, rather, they would simply like to not have to build and live in the bomb shelters.
And the other problem here that you and some others have is simply, well, let me first say that you and some others claim that some recognize the State of Israel. And you blame recent events on occupation. The problem is, though, that recent events bear a rather striking resemblance to certain past events that occurred at a time when the only "occupied" territory was Israel proper. So from a strictly Israeli point of view, no reason why one should come to any conclusion other than that the claimed recognition is an outright myth, unless, of course, myth becomes deed and so part of our history, and as such, to be factored into the analysis, as a turning away from the prior but noted activity. You'll have to take my word on it, but I can very nearly guarantee that if some were to show that they truly wanted peace, well, then peace it would be. And if Hezbollah wants to put down its rifles and pick up that shovel and level, well, then more power to Hezbollah, and I don't think that many would otherwise be opposed.
And if you wish to blame someone for the destruction of all that was constructed with the help of shovel and level, then blame the same souls who decided that one could also build with the rifle. Of course, that wasn't their only mistake, since their other mistake, as I noted, was in not putting the interests of the Lebanese people before their own [and some other interest]. As I've already noted, that other interest is their own interest in the destruction of Israel as a state. Which is to say that we wouldn't be witness to all of this death and destruction and could instead concern ourselves with more mundane matters, such as the matter of whether or not a certain Oprah is a lesbian, if only some would be so kind enough to do as we advised, to wit, understand that the end goal here is the success of the Lebanese state and its people and that the rifle is not a building tool but a means of preserving the nation, and since no one has any real issue with the preservation of Lebanon absent any hostile conduct emanating from its territory, well, I trust that by now you've gotten the point.
And if I'm wrong, well, if you try as advised and it doesn't work, then you can come back and say that you've tried my advice, it failed, and now you're going to do as you see fit. In the meantime, and again, since I've said it before but it bears repeating, as soon as the Palestinian and other Arabs convince Israel that Israel has nothing to fear from them, then this conflict ends. All that would remain to be settled is drawing some lines on a map and then, good lawyers in tow, determining the practical means of ensuring the success of all and never mind the lines on the map just drawn [i.e., work things out such that while the lines on the map serve their more national and political purposes, that the desired reality of efficient commerce, trade, etc., is considered and measures adopted by way of ensuring the success of the same]. That's the vision. And held by most in the West, and belive it or not, by most in Israel.
Lastly, re "buffer zones" and "land grabs", well, given the above, you can imagine my now to be provided response. The requested buffer is simply the Lebanese army [so not a zone but a people] and such ought to tell you how perverse the situation is in Lebanon, since no one thinks as the French army in France as serving as a buffer in France, or the 101st Airborne Division at Ft. Campbell serving as a buffer in the US. And please note that the Israelis are not asking for a buffer in their own territory, since they effectively exercise sovereignty over the same. Again, that is the problem here. And to now add that which I have heretofore left out, well, who ever said that life was fair? Was it fair when you woke up one day only to see the Roman legion marching into town? Leaving aside those who support Hezbollah and so have only themselves to blame, the rest are simply the victims of both geography and history. Kind of like the Koreans, who have their own saying about that shrimp [them] being caught in the battle of the whales [Japan and China], i.e., as some have observed, the Korean peninsula points like a dagger directly at Japan, and so some have desired to occupy and use the same for such purpose, while some others took that as read and set out on their own preemptive occupation to eliminate that risk, with the Korean shrimp in the meantime being stuck between those battling whales. That the requested buffer is a people and not a zone also disposes of the/your claim of "land grab," since if they wanted to grab the land, they wouldn't be asking the Lebanese army to be the buffer, they'd simply roll the tanks and walk the troops north and serve as their own buffer on Lebanese territory. And you'll have to forgive or indulge me [or both], but the apparent fact that you simply cannot see that there is no intended land grab is, well, let me simply say that such is rather disconcerting, at least in my view, and more importantly, that such misperception on your part is part of the problem and not its solution.
I have absolutely no doubt that some of the Lebanese support received by Hezbollah is genuine and sincere [while some others provide grudging support under coercion/duress and some others oppose Hezbollah, with this last consisting of active and passive opposition]. But how does the genuine and sincere support help them? I have absolutely no doubt that those non-Germans who became part and parcel of the Third Reich and the Nazi machine were genuine and sincere, but the Third Reich and the Nazi machine were nonetheless a monster. And if you join souls with a monster, well, you get the point. And as always, each one of us need make that determination for ourselves. And if some Lebanese want to buddy up with Hezbollah then so be it, as that is their right, but they need to recognize, as is obvious, that such buddying-up might very well cost them dearly, given Hezbollah's attitude and actions towards Israel and some others.
And, yes, it is not so pleasant to watch the revived Lebanese state be destroyed. But what was the alternative, at least from the Israeli point of view?
And, sorry, but nothing more false could ever be said than that Israel could somehow hope to prevent the success of a Lebanese state. And what I mean by that is not that Israel could not destroy Lebanon, since as we can all see, they could do so if they so desired. What I mean is that if no one in Lebanon was trying to destroy the state of Israel and the Lebanese were simply minding their own success, Israel would not object to the same and so would not act to hinder or destroy the Lebanese state and whatever success that its citizenry were able to achieve. And that's our reality. But the problem and the tragedy here is simply that, as always, it is easier to hate when you believe that the other hates you, with that the problem, and the tragedy being that the Israelis don't hate Lebanon and the Lebanese people, rather, they would simply like to not have to build and live in the bomb shelters.
And the other problem here that you and some others have is simply, well, let me first say that you and some others claim that some recognize the State of Israel. And you blame recent events on occupation. The problem is, though, that recent events bear a rather striking resemblance to certain past events that occurred at a time when the only "occupied" territory was Israel proper. So from a strictly Israeli point of view, no reason why one should come to any conclusion other than that the claimed recognition is an outright myth, unless, of course, myth becomes deed and so part of our history, and as such, to be factored into the analysis, as a turning away from the prior but noted activity. You'll have to take my word on it, but I can very nearly guarantee that if some were to show that they truly wanted peace, well, then peace it would be. And if Hezbollah wants to put down its rifles and pick up that shovel and level, well, then more power to Hezbollah, and I don't think that many would otherwise be opposed.
And if you wish to blame someone for the destruction of all that was constructed with the help of shovel and level, then blame the same souls who decided that one could also build with the rifle. Of course, that wasn't their only mistake, since their other mistake, as I noted, was in not putting the interests of the Lebanese people before their own [and some other interest]. As I've already noted, that other interest is their own interest in the destruction of Israel as a state. Which is to say that we wouldn't be witness to all of this death and destruction and could instead concern ourselves with more mundane matters, such as the matter of whether or not a certain Oprah is a lesbian, if only some would be so kind enough to do as we advised, to wit, understand that the end goal here is the success of the Lebanese state and its people and that the rifle is not a building tool but a means of preserving the nation, and since no one has any real issue with the preservation of Lebanon absent any hostile conduct emanating from its territory, well, I trust that by now you've gotten the point.
And if I'm wrong, well, if you try as advised and it doesn't work, then you can come back and say that you've tried my advice, it failed, and now you're going to do as you see fit. In the meantime, and again, since I've said it before but it bears repeating, as soon as the Palestinian and other Arabs convince Israel that Israel has nothing to fear from them, then this conflict ends. All that would remain to be settled is drawing some lines on a map and then, good lawyers in tow, determining the practical means of ensuring the success of all and never mind the lines on the map just drawn [i.e., work things out such that while the lines on the map serve their more national and political purposes, that the desired reality of efficient commerce, trade, etc., is considered and measures adopted by way of ensuring the success of the same]. That's the vision. And held by most in the West, and belive it or not, by most in Israel.
Lastly, re "buffer zones" and "land grabs", well, given the above, you can imagine my now to be provided response. The requested buffer is simply the Lebanese army [so not a zone but a people] and such ought to tell you how perverse the situation is in Lebanon, since no one thinks as the French army in France as serving as a buffer in France, or the 101st Airborne Division at Ft. Campbell serving as a buffer in the US. And please note that the Israelis are not asking for a buffer in their own territory, since they effectively exercise sovereignty over the same. Again, that is the problem here. And to now add that which I have heretofore left out, well, who ever said that life was fair? Was it fair when you woke up one day only to see the Roman legion marching into town? Leaving aside those who support Hezbollah and so have only themselves to blame, the rest are simply the victims of both geography and history. Kind of like the Koreans, who have their own saying about that shrimp [them] being caught in the battle of the whales [Japan and China], i.e., as some have observed, the Korean peninsula points like a dagger directly at Japan, and so some have desired to occupy and use the same for such purpose, while some others took that as read and set out on their own preemptive occupation to eliminate that risk, with the Korean shrimp in the meantime being stuck between those battling whales. That the requested buffer is a people and not a zone also disposes of the/your claim of "land grab," since if they wanted to grab the land, they wouldn't be asking the Lebanese army to be the buffer, they'd simply roll the tanks and walk the troops north and serve as their own buffer on Lebanese territory. And you'll have to forgive or indulge me [or both], but the apparent fact that you simply cannot see that there is no intended land grab is, well, let me simply say that such is rather disconcerting, at least in my view, and more importantly, that such misperception on your part is part of the problem and not its solution.
QUOTE(moif @ Jul 19 2006, 05:29 PM)
If anything it ought to emphasise to the Lebanese who their enemy really is, but it seems to have almost the other effect. Hezbollah is just as popular now as it ever was. With or without Syrian troops in Lebanon.
For about 300 dead and 1500 wounded Lebanese, Israel is the enemy. The biggest reason why Hezbollah is so popular in Lebanon and in other countries is the way Israel has been acting in the past half century. For a person whose friends/family has been killed and whose house has been reduced to rubble by Israeli Air Force, Hezbollah is the solution.
I do not like the way Hezbollah has been acting but I can understand why they are doing what they do. When your countrymen are being killed, you try to kill them back. It does not mean they are right but they are without any other option.
For a person whose friends/family has been killed and whose house has been reduced to rubble by Israeli Air Force, Hezbollah is the solution.
Oh really? And what solution might that be? Start a war from a peaceful border? Kill some innocent Jews? Let the Jews kill even more innocents if you hide our rockets in your house?
What the hell kind of solution is that?
Answer: A *** NOTICE: THIS WORD IS AGAINST THE RULES. FAILURE TO REMOVE IT WILL RESULT IN A STRIKE. *** one.
Why not do what the Koran ACTUALLY says, and treat Jews like peoples of the book? Make peace not war? Why not try to STOP the killing? No? Better to continually pick fights with someone better trainied, better equiped, and a better fighter than you? That is utter stupidity.
Oh really? And what solution might that be? Start a war from a peaceful border? Kill some innocent Jews? Let the Jews kill even more innocents if you hide our rockets in your house?
What the hell kind of solution is that?
Answer: A *** NOTICE: THIS WORD IS AGAINST THE RULES. FAILURE TO REMOVE IT WILL RESULT IN A STRIKE. *** one.
Why not do what the Koran ACTUALLY says, and treat Jews like peoples of the book? Make peace not war? Why not try to STOP the killing? No? Better to continually pick fights with someone better trainied, better equiped, and a better fighter than you? That is utter stupidity.
QUOTE(moif)
...whats the point your making? That Israel is wrong to attack a defencless state? that the Lebanese are without complicity?
I don't see how Hariri's death gets Lebanon off the hook really... If anything it ought to emphasise to the Lebanese who their enemy really is, but it seems to have almost the other effect. Hezbollah is just as popular now as it ever was. With or without Syrian troops in Lebanon.
I am just asking you to look at the situation in it's entirety. Consider how fractured amongst ethnic, religious and political lines Lebanon is and how this division has not only been enshrined in their political structure but their foreign relationships and economic dependency. They have been known to war with one another.
With many people in Lebanon Hezbollah is not popular and this current conflict, as ones before it, only encourage their discontent.
I honestly believe that in order for Lebanon to move forward that they must allow Hezbollah political legitimacy, as is being done with the current Lebanese gov. I don't support your view of extermination and yes it does make me feel ill to say this.
Not that I feel this will go all smoothly and without troubles but I do think it is one of the most major components for Lebanon to achieve peace, and this legitimacy would indeed include the long ago agreed upon disarmament.
Giving a political voice to a group like Hezbollah frightens many in this region for various reasons. How do you think a neighbor ..ohh like Syria that has long worked hard to repress and massacre similar movements within her own borders feels about legitimizing these political goals next door? Or is it an advantage to keep them acting like monsters?
Peace will never happen until Hezbollah is in fact legitimately held accountable by the Lebanese people within the confinement of Lebanese law and the structure of a Lebanese political system. I don't honestly doubt that Lebanon could then be held fully and absolutely responsible, but I know that is not how it currently stands and Iran and Syria have no desire to allow it.
EDITED TO ADD:
Thought it might clarfiy my position more to state that I do accept they very real possibility that Hezbollah would have to be disarmed by force.
QUOTE(Fma @ Jul 21 2006, 03:12 AM)
QUOTE(moif @ Jul 19 2006, 05:29 PM)
If anything it ought to emphasise to the Lebanese who their enemy really is, but it seems to have almost the other effect. Hezbollah is just as popular now as it ever was. With or without Syrian troops in Lebanon.
For about 300 dead and 1500 wounded Lebanese, Israel is the enemy. The biggest reason why Hezbollah is so popular in Lebanon and in other countries is the way Israel has been acting in the past half century. For a person whose friends/family has been killed and whose house has been reduced to rubble by Israeli Air Force, Hezbollah is the solution.
I do not like the way Hezbollah has been acting but I can understand why they are doing what they do. When your countrymen are being killed, you try to kill them back. It does not mean they are right but they are without any other option.
As far as I'm concerned the only Lebanese dead I lament are the poor children dragged into this conflict by their stupid and callous parents. The adults are all one and the same and it seems a particularly western perspective that divides people into soldiers and civilians, and when facing people who do not draw this distinction it is also a particularly stupid perspective.
Tribal warfare does not take western sensibilities into account but aims at the complete annihilation of the enemy. Religious war differs only in as much as conversion to the appropriate faith allows people the chance to escape persecution.
The problem faced by Israel is the same problem faced by all democracies engaged in warfare against Islamic terrorism (in other words, all of us). Who is the enemy? When the Jihadi's don't identify themselves but strike from the mass of civilians who gladly support them, then what is the actual difference between a southern Lebanese civilian and a Hezbollah fighter?
There is none. The difference has been erased, and long before Israel's so called 'disproportionate response'. The civilians of South Lebanon are Hezbollah by simple virtue of their political, logistical and moral support for the 'Party of Allah'.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
QUOTE(bucket @ Jul 23 2006, 06:42 AM)
QUOTE(moif)
...whats the point your making? That Israel is wrong to attack a defencless state? that the Lebanese are without complicity?
I don't see how Hariri's death gets Lebanon off the hook really... If anything it ought to emphasise to the Lebanese who their enemy really is, but it seems to have almost the other effect. Hezbollah is just as popular now as it ever was. With or without Syrian troops in Lebanon.
I am just asking you to look at the situation in it's entirety. Consider how fractured amongst ethnic, religious and political lines Lebanon is and how this division has not only been enshrined in their political structure but their foreign relationships and economic dependency. They have been known to war with one another.
With many people in Lebanon Hezbollah is not popular and this current conflict, as ones before it, only encourage their discontent.
What possible difference had been made prior to the out break of hostilities? If anything Hezbollah was getting stronger and stronger and no one was doing anything to prevent their rise in legitimacy and authority. What choice does Israel have if it wishes to exist in peace?
Not attacking with severity would not change anything. The previous status quo so many westerners are now lamenting saw Hezbollah gaining in strength day by day, week by week, month by month and year by year. Nothing was being done to hamper Hezbollah, and the UN was sitting idly by as Iran armed Hezbollah with money, weapons and even men.
QUOTE(CTB)
The Israeli Defense Forces and Hezbollah have fought pitched battles over the past two days in the region around Avivim. Ynet News reports nine Israeli soldiers were wounded during the fighting, and two were killed in the nearby town of Maroun al-Ras. "Attempts to rescue some of the injured were carried out under relentless fire," according to the Ynet News report. Six Hezbollah cells were engaged during the attack. Israeli forces have withdrawn from the area.
[snip]
Hezbollah also has built an extensive underground networks, including "fortified underground bunkers some 40 meters (roughly 120 feet) underground, along with mass weapons caches" and communications systems. All of this was built under the nose of the Israeli military and intelligence services, as well as the peacekeeping forces of the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL).
The successful Hezbollah raid on the Israeli outpost that started the conflict, followed by the firing of rockets into Haifa and beyond, anti-ship cruise missiles which disabled an Israeli warship and sunk a civilian freighter, and the construction and presence of a fortified bunker network along the border have caught the Israeli intelligence community (Aman and Mossad) flat footed. In the words of an American military officer, "If we didn't know this about Hezbollah's capabilities, just think of what we don't know about Iran's capabilities."
Link. [snip]
Hezbollah also has built an extensive underground networks, including "fortified underground bunkers some 40 meters (roughly 120 feet) underground, along with mass weapons caches" and communications systems. All of this was built under the nose of the Israeli military and intelligence services, as well as the peacekeeping forces of the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL).
The successful Hezbollah raid on the Israeli outpost that started the conflict, followed by the firing of rockets into Haifa and beyond, anti-ship cruise missiles which disabled an Israeli warship and sunk a civilian freighter, and the construction and presence of a fortified bunker network along the border have caught the Israeli intelligence community (Aman and Mossad) flat footed. In the words of an American military officer, "If we didn't know this about Hezbollah's capabilities, just think of what we don't know about Iran's capabilities."
QUOTE(bucket)
I honestly believe that in order for Lebanon to move forward that they must allow Hezbollah political legitimacy, as is being done with the current Lebanese gov. I don't support your view of extermination and yes it does make me feel ill to say this.
So you would legitimize a group whose aim is the destruction of Israel merely to help Lebanon become democratic? I'm sorry but that is not something I could ever accept.
What would you do, once Hezbollah is become legitimate and, like Hamas, refused to accept Israel's right to exist?
Why are you unwilling to accept that what these people say they believe in is actually what they believe in? Do you belive that legitimacy will weaken their resolve, or will it, as was the case in Gaza, simply be used an example of victory ...a recruiting tool.
The lesson of the Gaza pull out is clear enough. Hamas proclaimed it as a military victory and emboldened by their 'victory' they moved on to the next phase of the war.
QUOTE(bucket)
Not that I feel this will go all smoothly and without troubles but I do think it is one of the most major components for Lebanon to achieve peace, and this legitimacy would indeed include the long ago agreed upon disarmament.
Giving a political voice to a group like Hezbollah frightens many in this region for various reasons. How do you think a neighbor ..ohh like Syria that has long worked hard to repress and massacre similar movements within her own borders feels about legitimizing these political goals next door? Or is it an advantage to keep them acting like monsters?
They will act as 'monsters' regardless of how we choose to view them. Giving a political voice to a group like Hezbollah frightens many in this region for various reasons. How do you think a neighbor ..ohh like Syria that has long worked hard to repress and massacre similar movements within her own borders feels about legitimizing these political goals next door? Or is it an advantage to keep them acting like monsters?
And I am slightly amused by the use of the world 'monsters'. These people are not 'monsters' are they? ...they are human beings, just like you and I. In their own way they are honourable and honest and do what they think is best. The only thing that reduces them in my eyes is their religious ideology which has perverted them just as surely as fascism corrupts the people of Europe.
QUOTE(bucket)
Peace will never happen until Hezbollah is in fact legitimately held accountable by the Lebanese people within the confinement of Lebanese law and the structure of a Lebanese political system. I don't honestly doubt that Lebanon could then be held fully and absolutely responsible, but I know that is not how it currently stands and Iran and Syria have no desire to allow it.
EDITED TO ADD:
Thought it might clarfiy my position more to state that I do accept they very real possibility that Hezbollah would have to be disarmed by force.
The answer to all our problems then would be an invasion of Syria and the removal of the government there. We might as well consider an attack against Iran as well whilst we are at it since its fairly obvious that these powers are already gearing up to an eventual conflict with the west and if/when that conflict happens, it will not be fought in the western manner with tanks and planes. EDITED TO ADD:
Thought it might clarfiy my position more to state that I do accept they very real possibility that Hezbollah would have to be disarmed by force.
One of the most fundamental lessons of military history is that armies train and prepare for the wars they have already fought and each successive war brings its own reality.
The biggest problem we face now is that we are sitting ducks. We (the democratic nations) do not understand the nature of the threat we face. Most of our politicians, politically blinded by their own pompous pride and political ideologies refuse to admit there is even any threat at all.
The Islamic world is using new methods of warfare against us. Mass immigration into the west has allowed terrorist groups to follow and to become legitimate. What you advocate for Hezbollah has already been done with the Muslim Brotherhood and that organization is now the largest and most powerful Islamic group in the world.
Largely invisible from western media attention it is considered near unaccountable by our governments and enjoys the sort of influence on western nations that allows it to carry out its attacks on democracy with impunity. Its members are regularly found to be intimately connected with any Islamic terrorist group you care to mention and yet few are ever prosecuted.
QUOTE(Front Page)
One might be led to think that if international law enforcement authorities and Western intelligence agencies had discovered a twenty-year old document revealing a top-secret plan developed by the oldest Islamist organization with one of the most extensive terror networks in the world to launch a program of “cultural invasion” and eventual conquest of the West that virtually mirrors the tactics used by Islamists for more than two decades, that such news would scream from headlines published on the front pages and above the fold of the New York Times, Washington Post, London Times, Le Monde, Bild, and La Repubblica.
If that’s what you might think, you would be wrong.
In fact, such a document was recovered in a raid by Swiss authorities in November 2001, two months after the horror of 9/11. Since that time information about this document, known in counterterrorism circles as “The Project”, and discussion regarding its content has been limited to the top-secret world of Western intelligence communities.
[snip]
What makes The Project so different from the standard “Death of America! Death to Israel!” and “Establish the global caliphate!” Islamist rhetoric is that it represents a flexible, multi-phased, long-term approach to the “cultural invasion” of the West. Calling for the utilization of various tactics, ranging from immigration, infiltration, surveillance, propaganda, protest, deception, political legitimacy and terrorism, The Project has served for more than two decades as the Muslim Brotherhood “master plan”. As can be seen in a number of examples throughout Europe – including the political recognition of parallel Islamist government organizations in Sweden, the recent “cartoon” jihad in Denmark, the Parisian car-burning intifada last November, and the 7/7 terrorist attacks in London – the plan outlined in The Project has been overwhelmingly successful.
[snip]
For those who have read The Project, what is most troubling is not that Islamists have developed a plan for global dominance; it has been assumed by experts that Islamist organizations and terrorist groups have been operating off an agreed-upon set of general principles, networks and methodology. What is startling is how effectively the Islamist plan for conquest outlined in The Project has been implemented by Muslims in the West for more than two decades. Equally troubling is the ideology that lies behind the plan: inciting hatred and violence against Jewish populations around the world; the deliberate co-opting and subversion of Western public and private institutions; its recommendation of a policy of deliberate escalating confrontation by Muslims living in the West against their neighbors and fellow-citizens; the acceptance of terrorism as a legitimate option for achieving their ends and the inevitable reality of jihad against non-Muslims; and its ultimate goal of forcibly instituting the Islamic rule of the caliphate by shari’a in the West, and eventually the whole world.
If the experience over the past quarter of a century seen in Europe and the US is any indication, the “Islamic researchers” who drafted The Project more than two decades ago must be pleased to see their long-term plan to conquer the West and to see the Green flag of Islam raised over its citizens realized so rapidly, efficiently and completely. If Islamists are equally successful in the years to come, Westerners ought to enjoy their personal and political freedoms while they last.
Link. If that’s what you might think, you would be wrong.
In fact, such a document was recovered in a raid by Swiss authorities in November 2001, two months after the horror of 9/11. Since that time information about this document, known in counterterrorism circles as “The Project”, and discussion regarding its content has been limited to the top-secret world of Western intelligence communities.
[snip]
What makes The Project so different from the standard “Death of America! Death to Israel!” and “Establish the global caliphate!” Islamist rhetoric is that it represents a flexible, multi-phased, long-term approach to the “cultural invasion” of the West. Calling for the utilization of various tactics, ranging from immigration, infiltration, surveillance, propaganda, protest, deception, political legitimacy and terrorism, The Project has served for more than two decades as the Muslim Brotherhood “master plan”. As can be seen in a number of examples throughout Europe – including the political recognition of parallel Islamist government organizations in Sweden, the recent “cartoon” jihad in Denmark, the Parisian car-burning intifada last November, and the 7/7 terrorist attacks in London – the plan outlined in The Project has been overwhelmingly successful.
[snip]
For those who have read The Project, what is most troubling is not that Islamists have developed a plan for global dominance; it has been assumed by experts that Islamist organizations and terrorist groups have been operating off an agreed-upon set of general principles, networks and methodology. What is startling is how effectively the Islamist plan for conquest outlined in The Project has been implemented by Muslims in the West for more than two decades. Equally troubling is the ideology that lies behind the plan: inciting hatred and violence against Jewish populations around the world; the deliberate co-opting and subversion of Western public and private institutions; its recommendation of a policy of deliberate escalating confrontation by Muslims living in the West against their neighbors and fellow-citizens; the acceptance of terrorism as a legitimate option for achieving their ends and the inevitable reality of jihad against non-Muslims; and its ultimate goal of forcibly instituting the Islamic rule of the caliphate by shari’a in the West, and eventually the whole world.
If the experience over the past quarter of a century seen in Europe and the US is any indication, the “Islamic researchers” who drafted The Project more than two decades ago must be pleased to see their long-term plan to conquer the West and to see the Green flag of Islam raised over its citizens realized so rapidly, efficiently and completely. If Islamists are equally successful in the years to come, Westerners ought to enjoy their personal and political freedoms while they last.
Maybe the devil you know is preferable to the devil you don't, but we are fools if we think we know the devil.
edited to add extra text.
QUOTE(bucket @ Jul 23 2006, 12:42 AM)
I honestly believe that in order for Lebanon to move forward that they must allow Hezbollah political legitimacy, as is being done with the current Lebanese gov. I don't support your view of extermination and yes it does make me feel ill to say this.
So...just to be clear...you are legitimizing terrorism. I can't construe it any other way. If Hezbolla did not target innocents for destruction to push their political agenda, we'd barely notice that group. Instead, the democratically elected government of Lebanon - good or bad - would drive Lebanon's political future.
Instead, Hezbolla gets a huge voice by targeting women and children that can't defend themselves. In turn, this should legitimize them? I'm sorry, but I just can't fathom how this is helpful.
I had a much longer response but my computer went thppptttht
So I apologize ahead of time if I don't address something or better explain my argument as in my mind I already have, just ask me (nicely) and I will again.
Come on moif, don't be so dismissive and act like the domestic and political make-up of a nation matters so little, it matters a lot. I just posted in the joke forum a joke a TV show made about Hezbollah, it is funny, least I think it is, and it caused riots and for one Lebanese Christian to get beaten by a stick.
You of all people should have some personal understanding of what a society is like and how it politically must behave when it is so threatened on any level to criticize Muslim extremists.
All I am asking you is to take into consideration the environment the Lebanese exist in while you make your demands for what they should and shouldn't be doing.
And to remember Hariri and know that saying the wrong things in Lebanon can end your life, no matter how powerful. He had Saudi backing, how much more powerful of a man can we place in opposition?
You don't understand what this word legitimate means in this context, such a political transition would have to occur on two levels domestically they would have to become legitimate in the Lebanese political structure and internationally they would also be expected to legitimize. That would mean adhering to, recognizing and adopting UN resolution 1559, wouldn't it? And I think the Iranian president has shown us that discussing the destruction of Israel is no longer legitimate behavior on the world stage. You also use Hamas as example but again the international community has not accepted their "political legitimacy" either.
And I am slightly amused by the use of the world 'monsters'. These people are not 'monsters' are they? ...they are human beings, just like you and I. In their own way they are honourable and honest and do what they think is best. The only thing that reduces them in my eyes is their religious ideology which has perverted them just as surely as fascism corrupts the people of Europe.
I think it is their actions and behavior, not what they think or feel, that I base my labeling on.
Might as well consider it? Again you seem to believe it will be Israel's choice or perhaps even our own to make. Looks like Iran might have already considered and acted on it....
Suicide armies launched
So I apologize ahead of time if I don't address something or better explain my argument as in my mind I already have, just ask me (nicely) and I will again.
QUOTE(moif)
I'm sorry to be blunt bucket, but so what?
Come on moif, don't be so dismissive and act like the domestic and political make-up of a nation matters so little, it matters a lot. I just posted in the joke forum a joke a TV show made about Hezbollah, it is funny, least I think it is, and it caused riots and for one Lebanese Christian to get beaten by a stick.
You of all people should have some personal understanding of what a society is like and how it politically must behave when it is so threatened on any level to criticize Muslim extremists.
All I am asking you is to take into consideration the environment the Lebanese exist in while you make your demands for what they should and shouldn't be doing.
And to remember Hariri and know that saying the wrong things in Lebanon can end your life, no matter how powerful. He had Saudi backing, how much more powerful of a man can we place in opposition?
QUOTE(moif)
What choice does Israel have if it wishes to exist in peace?
The choice is not always Israel's to make and I have never criticized Israel action or felt she had no rights to exist in peace, but war is not peace, and Israel will never achieve peace alone. QUOTE(moif)
So you would legitimize a group whose aim is the destruction of Israel merely to help Lebanon become democratic?
I'm sorry but that is not something I could ever accept.
What would you do, once Hezbollah is become legitimate and, like Hamas, refused to accept Israel's right to exist?
Why are you unwilling to accept that what these people say they believe in is actually what they believe in? Do you belive that legitimacy will weaken their resolve, or will it, as was the case in Gaza, simply be used an example of victory ...a recruiting tool.
The lesson of the Gaza pull out is clear enough. Hamas proclaimed it as a military victory and emboldened by their 'victory' they moved on to the next phase of the war.
I'm sorry but that is not something I could ever accept.
What would you do, once Hezbollah is become legitimate and, like Hamas, refused to accept Israel's right to exist?
Why are you unwilling to accept that what these people say they believe in is actually what they believe in? Do you belive that legitimacy will weaken their resolve, or will it, as was the case in Gaza, simply be used an example of victory ...a recruiting tool.
The lesson of the Gaza pull out is clear enough. Hamas proclaimed it as a military victory and emboldened by their 'victory' they moved on to the next phase of the war.
You don't understand what this word legitimate means in this context, such a political transition would have to occur on two levels domestically they would have to become legitimate in the Lebanese political structure and internationally they would also be expected to legitimize. That would mean adhering to, recognizing and adopting UN resolution 1559, wouldn't it? And I think the Iranian president has shown us that discussing the destruction of Israel is no longer legitimate behavior on the world stage. You also use Hamas as example but again the international community has not accepted their "political legitimacy" either.
QUOTE(moif)
And I am slightly amused by the use of the world 'monsters'. These people are not 'monsters' are they? ...they are human beings, just like you and I. In their own way they are honourable and honest and do what they think is best. The only thing that reduces them in my eyes is their religious ideology which has perverted them just as surely as fascism corrupts the people of Europe.
I think it is their actions and behavior, not what they think or feel, that I base my labeling on.
QUOTE(moif)
The answer to all our problems then would be an invasion of Syria and the removal of the government there. We might as well consider an attack against Iran as well whilst we are at it since its fairly obvious that these powers are already gearing up to an eventual conflict with the west and if/when that conflict happens, it will not be fought in the western manner with tanks and planes.
Might as well consider it? Again you seem to believe it will be Israel's choice or perhaps even our own to make. Looks like Iran might have already considered and acted on it....
Suicide armies launched
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