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Amlord
Two days ago, IDF forces hit a UN outpost in Lebanon. Link to story.

UN Secretary General Kofi Annan issued a statement saying that the attacks were "apparently deliberate". He called for an investigation into this "very disturbing incident". Annan has said that the UNIFIL had been in contact with the IDF for six hours before the outpost was hit, telling them to stop firing.

Apparently there is more to this story than initially meets the eye.

Annan's Claims On Casualties May Unravel

QUOTE
A Canadian U.N. observer, one of four killed at a UNIFIL position near the southern Lebanese town of Khiyam on Tuesday, sent an e-mail to his former commander, a Canadian retired major-general, Lewis MacKenzie, in which he wrote that Hezbollah fighters were "all over" the U.N. position, Mr. MacKenzie said. Hezbollah troops, not the United Nations, were Israel's target, the deceased observer wrote.

A senior U.N. peacekeeping operation official who briefed the press yesterday, however, said that on the day the deaths occurred, the only "known Hezbollah activity was 5 kilometers away."The official's briefing was conditioned on anonymity, but the undersecretary-general for peacekeeping operations, Jane Holl Lute, supplied the Security Council with similar information at an earlier briefing yesterday.


Here is the UNIFIL report for July 26th.
QUOTE
Yesterday evening at 19:30, at least one aerial bomb impacted directly on the building inside the patrol base of the Observer Group Lebanon (OGL) in the area of Khiyam in the eastern sector. The three-story building and the position were entirely destroyed. At the time, there were 4 unarmed military observers in the position from different nationalities. A UNIFIL rescue team was immediately dispatched to the location, and is still trying to clear the rubble. They retrieved the bodies of three observers, and are searching for the fourth, who is also feared dead. The Secretary General of the United Nations gave a statement last night in Rome concerning this incident.

Prior to this incident, very intensive aerial bombardment and shelling from the Israeli side was reported in the area of Khiyam, and there were 14 prior
incidents of firing close to this position by aerial bombs and artillery shells. At 18:30, four artillery shells fired from the Israeli side directly impacted inside the position, causing extensive damage on the building and the shelter. UNIFIL Force Commander was in repeated contact with Israeli Army officers throughout the afternoon, pressing the need to protect that particular UN position from firing.

Another UN position of the Ghanaian battalion in the area of Marwahin in the western sector was also directly hit by one mortar round from the Hezbollah side last night. The round did not explode, and there were no casualties or material damage. Another 5 incidents of firing close to UN positions from the Israeli side were reported yesterday. It was also reported that Hezbollah fired from the vicinity of four UN positions at Alma ash Shab, Tibnin, Brashit, and At Tiri. All UNIFIL positions remain occupied and maintained by the troops.


Questions for debate:

Did the IDF intentionally target the UN observation post?

Did it do so recklessly?


Did Kofi Annan jump to conclusions when he issued his statement?
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moif
Did the IDF intentionally target the UN observation post?

Most probably.


Did it do so recklessly?

I doubt it. Rather I think this was probably a deliberate attack designed to get rid of the UN in the region since, from the Israeli perspecive, the UN is a Hezbollah asset and if any one is going to man an eventual buffer zone, let it rather be NATO.


Did Kofi Annan jump to conclusions when he issued his statement?

No, but as usual, Kofi has his own biased view of the world and its what Kofi left out thats telling.

First of all he didn't mention that Hezbollah's flag flies along side the UN flag... nor that the UN base was repeatedly used as cover by Hezbollah. He didn't mention that the UN personnel on the ground have repeatedly warned they were in the line of fire, nor did he mention the sniper and mortar fire which came from Hezbollah territory and which 24 hours before the IDF shelling resulted in (as reported by Denmarks media) a Danish unarmed observer saving the life of his colleague that had been hit by fire from an unknown assailant.

..and most important of all, he didn't explain why these four unarmed 'peace keepers' were stuck in a observation post, in the middle of a war zone!

It seems to me that some one in the UN has been playing fast and loose with lives of the UN ground forces, no doubt for dubious political reasons that have nothing what so ever to do with 'peace keeping'.
Lesly
Did the IDF intentionally target the UN observation post?
I think so.

Did it do so recklessly?
That depends on how far you think a country can go to deter terrorism. I don't think the president's office gives him immunity to spy on Americans, I certainly don't think Israel can use the cover Hezbollah was taking from the peacekeeping force for their own ends. I don't think this incident is going to help their zero tolerance position in the free world. I expect people will ask themselves where the line in self-defense is and when does it become morally necessary to stop using sophisticated weaponry and engage the enemy in person.

Australia's the first nation to remove its peacekeeping force.

Did Kofi Annan jump to conclusions when he issued his statement?
As a cynic, I will say no. I don't think Kofi should've reacted as strongly as he did, but I also think he was being human, too. I’m fascinated that in a campaign for “self-defense” and “survival” the Secretary-General has drawn fire to himself for displaying strong emotions towards the deaths of a few people wearing UN uniforms. If Kofi were Israel and Israel were Palestine, Kofi would enforce a house arrest for the entire state while performing house calls, or maybe break into an Israeli jail or maybe order air strikes.

The following are two posts from a guy named Rigge. He’s a Jewish Canadian MI whom, if I remember correctly, has participated in peacekeeping missions himself. I’ve argued with him for 3-4 years about Iraq. Our arguments were vicious by ad.gif standards and somehow I consider him a friend today. I’ve hinted at him to participate here but a copy/paste job is the only introduction I have to show for it:

QUOTE(Rigge)
OK... hang on to your seats here, but I think Israel may be going too far with their Lebanon operation.

Yes, you heard it. Too far:

What I had expected to be limited, precision strikes targeting known Hezbollah facilities is rapidly blooming into something considerably larger. It appears that Israel is aiming to not only wipe out every Hezbollah facility in southern Lebanon, and cripple their broader infrastructure, but to also create a wasteland, a no-man land buffer zone along the Israel - Lebanon border.

The bombing campaign at the beginning was hitting targets I would have expected to see as a mission planner. We are now well into a much broader program, that has an entirely different goal than just hurting Hezbollah.

It also is starting to look like they are deliberately (honest it was an accident) targeting UNIFIL bases. You don't shell a UN post that has been there for over ten years for hours, while ignoring UN phone calls telling you to stop, within sight of the Israeli border by accident. You also don't send out a pilot armed with precision munitions and have him 'accidentally' target said position.

Based on my experience, and the facts revealed so far, that sounded pretty deliberate.

Considering the fact that the Hezbollah boys that kidnapped the Israeli soldiers drove a vehicle painted UN white, and wore UN uniforms, could be a factor. The fact that Israeli HATED UNIFIL, at best viewing them as useless, at worst as Hezbollah supporters, could be a factor.

Israel had better be careful. The ground campaign isn't going as well as they might have hoped. They have stirred up a hornet's nest in Lebanon that isn't being tempered by an overwhelming victory, and the international community is getting angry.

Later, answering a few questions:

QUOTE(Rigge)
Unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on which side you are on, it will be virtually impossible to prove the attack against the UNIFIL post was deliberate. Hell, PM Harper in Canada is already partially blaming the people that got killed by saying that they shouldn't have been there in the first place.

Israel can always say sorry, express regret, and the world marches on. Even something as really, really questionable as this can be excused by claiming 'fog of war' and all that [explicative].

I'd be willing to bet though that the UN will withdraw all the UNIFIL troops very quickly after this "accident."

Israel just might be able to pull off the 'Dead Zone', where nobody lives, and anything that moves is a legitimate target. I'd considered the possibility, but I never thought Israel would go this far. We are very close to the whole diminishing returns scenario.

To be a success, this operation had to kill about 20 Hezbollah troops for every 1 Israeli troop killed. That enforces the Israeli policy of deterrence. From what I can see they aren't even close to getting that kind of a kill ratio. I've heard as low as 2 to 1. Hezbollah wins just by coming out of this intact and able to post a media response.

That said, no other country is going to get involved, unless this drags on for months with increasingly appalling civilian casualties. Saudi made some rumblings, but at this point I'm betting it was just for internal consumption. As long as nobody else steps in, Israel has no reason to use nukes. Even if other nations stepped in, nobody in Israel is crazy enough to pop a nuke.

Though, there is always the Iranian issue...
Trouble
Thanks for the comments Lesly. It is pretty hard to argue with Rigge's comments on a base that has been there that long.

Did the IDF intentionally target the UN observation post?
I'm inclined to say yes. Rigge's comments are in lockstep with what I've heard on BBC. It doesn't prove beyond a shodow of a doubt but is a good reason to watch the Israeli offensive more closely.

Did it do so recklessly?
That is harder to argue. Maj. Kruedener's comments indicate Israeli and Hezbollah activity were within close proximity to each other. If Hezbollah was indeed using the base as cover, Kruedener's comments did not say.

Did Kofi Annan jump to conclusions when he issued his statement?

Look, Kofi is often quoted for understatement. He's only human. If I put myself in his position I would have been far more scathing. Then again he's the diplomat and I am not. What we should learn from all of this is not to take Israeli statements of"precision" guided attacks at face value. Use third parties and not official statements. Robert Fisk's commentary is not flattering and paints a different picture about how accurate their "precision attacks" are. Despite a left leaning past I'd rather take the word from someone at ground zero than an official military press statement.

Late Edit: The authentication of cluster munitions and phosphorus lends credence to concerns of the inappropriate use of force.
Renger
QUOTE(moif @ Jul 27 2006, 05:45 PM) *


It seems to me that some one in the UN has been playing fast and loose with lives of the UN ground forces, no doubt for dubious political reasons that have nothing what so ever to do with 'peace keeping'.

Moif I have read this sentence a few time and I must admit that I do not know what you exactly are trying to say here. Are you trying to say that the U.N. deliberately kept those peace keepers / observers there because they want to trouble the Israelis with their strategy / military campaign? Maybe I am completely wrong, but could you please explain it a bit further?
moif
QUOTE(Renger @ Jul 27 2006, 08:55 PM) *

QUOTE(moif @ Jul 27 2006, 05:45 PM) *


It seems to me that some one in the UN has been playing fast and loose with lives of the UN ground forces, no doubt for dubious political reasons that have nothing what so ever to do with 'peace keeping'.

Moif I have read this sentence a few time and I must admit that I do not know what you exactly are trying to say here. Are you trying to say that the U.N. deliberately kept those peace keepers / observers there because they want to trouble the Israelis with their strategy / military campaign? Maybe I am completely wrong, but could you please explain it a bit further?


Yes. That is what I suspect.

Basically there are two alternative explanations for what happened. The first is that Israel targetted the UN on purpose and I note that this is pretty well echoed by a good many indpendent observers though few have any good reason why the Israeli's would do this. People seem to believe that Israel is just that trigger happy that it can bomb a UN installation all day long by accident, even when the base commander is on the horn asking them to stop.
I know foir a fact that all Israeli intel, including all field intel, passes through a central command point and its impossible for such an attack to carry on without the coordinaters knowing full well what they are shooting at and why. had this been a single errant salvo then the official Israeli position would be believeable, but a prolonged barrage... I don't buy it.

The second alternative explanation is not mutually exclusive to the first and is that the UN kept their 'unarmed observers' in position to influence the conflict, either by allowing Hezbollah to misuse their installations or by waiting until some one (read Israel) killed UN personnel. This view is not generally wide spread, mostly I suspect because the UN is generally believed to be a neutral party

I suspect some one in the UN left those troops in the combat zone on purpose in a blatent attempt at influencing the conflict and that Israel decided it had had enough of the UN's partisan position and made an 'unofficial attack' against the UN to demonstrate their mood. Israel has always had a strained relationship with the UN and seems to consider it as an Arab tool. I agree with this perspective based on how busy the UN is with Israel as opposed to other long term conflicts. I do not consider the UN to be impartial in this matter.

This is from UNIFIL's own report (the one posted by Amlord in his opening post):
QUOTE
It was also reported that Hezbollah fired from the vicinity of four UN positions at Alma ash Shab, Tibnin, Brashit, and At Tiri. All UNIFIL positions remain occupied and maintained by the troops.
Link. (PDF)

This is from page 2 of the article Amlord quoted:
QUOTE
Hess-von Kruedener wrote about heavy IDF artillery and aerial bombardment "within 2 meters of our position." The Israeli shooting, he added, "has not been deliberate targeting, but has rather been due to tactical necessity."

The correspondence between the trooper and former commander amounted to "veiled speech in the military," Mr. MacKenzie, who once commanded the U.N. troops in Bosnia, told the CBC. "What he was telling us was Hezbollah fighters were all over his position and the IDF were targeting them, and that's a favorite trick by people who don't have representation in the U.N. They use the U.N. as shields knowing that they cannot be punished for it."
Link.

It looks to me like Hezbollah was using the UN as cover and Israel made it clear that it was not going to accept such a move.
Renger
QUOTE(moif @ Jul 28 2006, 01:32 AM) *

Yes. That is what I suspect.

Basically there are two alternative explanations for what happened. The first is that Israel targetted the UN on purpose and I note that this is pretty well echoed by a good many indpendent observers though few have any good reason why the Israeli's would do this. People seem to believe that Israel is just that trigger happy that it can bomb a UN installation all day long by accident, even when the base commander is on the horn asking them to stop. I know for a fact that all Israeli intel, including all field intel, passes through a central command point and its impossible for such an attack to carry on without the coordinaters knowing full well what they are shooting at and why. had this been a single errant salvo then the official Israeli position would be believeable, but a prolonged barrage... I don't buy it.


I also do not believe this attack was an "accident". Note that this is not the first attack upon an U.N. base Israel has done. On April 18, 1996 Israeli troops, as part of Operation Grapes of Wrath, attacked an U.N. compound in Qana that harbored 745 refugees from Libanon, killing 4 U.N. observers and 106 civilians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qana_Massacre.

QUOTE
The second alternative explanation is not mutually exclusive to the first and is that the UN kept their 'unarmed observers' in position to influence the conflict, either by allowing Hezbollah to misuse their installations or by waiting until some one (read Israel) killed UN personnel. This view is not generally wide spread, mostly I suspect because the UN is generally believed to be a neutral party


With the bold part I can agree. Keeping "observers" in position in order to have a chance to influence or at least monitor the situation could have been the reason why U.N. did not retract its personel. But in all honesty, I must admit that I do not agree with the Italic part. "Allowing Hezbollah to misuse their installations" implies that the U.N. has chosen sides in this conflict and up to now I haven't seen any fact to support this view. "Waiting until someone (read Israel) killed UN personnel." This would undermine the U.N. internally, why would anybody ever want to work for an organisation that is sacrificing its people deliberately? Besides that again in this second part is the implication that the U.N. has already chosen sides in this conflict which is only speculation without proove.

QUOTE
Israel has always had a strained relationship with the UN and seems to consider it as an Arab tool. I agree with this perspective based on how busy the UN is with Israel as opposed to other long term conflicts. I do not consider the UN to be impartial in this matter.


Come on Moif, now you are just following the war rhetoric of one of the fighting parties. Up to now I haven't seen one shred of evidence to suggest that the U.N. has chosen sides or that the U.N. is an Arab tool. But maybe you could disprove my opinion with more information?

QUOTE
This is from UNIFIL's own report (the one posted by Amlord in his opening post):
QUOTE
It was also reported that Hezbollah fired from the vicinity of four UN positions at Alma ash Shab, Tibnin, Brashit, and At Tiri. All UNIFIL positions remain occupied and maintained by the troops.
Link. (PDF)


The fact that Hezbollah misuses the presence of U.N. unarmed troops does not automatically mean that the U.N. sympatizes with this fighting faction. What could they have done to stop this? Attack them with sticks and stones?

QUOTE
This is from page 2 of the article Amlord quoted:
[i][color=#666666]Hess-von Kruedener wrote about heavy IDF artillery and aerial bombardment "within 2 meters of our position." The Israeli shooting, he added, "has not been deliberate targeting, but has rather been due to tactical necessity."


Attacking an U.N. base due to tactical necessity? This sounds like a weak excuse. Fact is that Israel attacked unarmed people in service of the U.N. This is an unforgivable act, as much as the fact that Hezbollah is using the U.N. as cover for their own attacks.
moif
QUOTE(Renger)
With the bold part I can agree. Keeping "observers" in position in order to have a chance to influence or at least monitor the situation could have been the reason why U.N. did not retract its personel. But in all honesty, I must admit that I do not agree with the Italic part. "Allowing Hezbollah to misuse their installations" implies that the U.N. has chosen sides in this conflict and up to now I haven't seen any fact to support this view. "Waiting until someone (read Israel) killed UN personnel." This would undermine the U.N. internally, why would anybody ever want to work for an organisation that is sacrificing its people deliberately? Besides that again in this second part is the implication that the U.N. has already chosen sides in this conflict which is only speculation without proove.
Well, yes, of ocurse it is,, which is why I wrote: That is what I suspect. whistling.gif

My personal distrust for the UN comes from the Balkans, and most particularly from my brothers experiences there with the Danish military. In the Balkans, the UN allowed its personnel to come under fire, repeatedly, whilst giving strict orders to not return fire. This state of affairs carried on for months with the Serbs shelling the Danish compounds several times with long range range artillery. On other occaisions Danish peace keepers came under sniper fire, and as usual were forbidden to return fire.

Finally the Serbs launched an ambush against a Danish armoured unit and the Danish commander returned fire on his own authority. With seven Leopard 1 tanks, all painted white, the Danes fought and destroyed the Serb armour, sparing only those vehicles whose weapons remained cold in the IR. For this act of clear self defence, the Danish commander was reprimanded by the UN.

The Serbs had been out to remove the Danes from the region so they could attack a Bosnian Muslim area with impunity. The Danish commanders actions probably saved hundreds, if not thousands of civilians yet he was punished for jeopardizing the neutrality of the UN.

I see clear parrallels with the Balkans in South Lebanon.


QUOTE(Renger)
Come on Moif, now you are just following the war rhetoric of one of the fighting parties. Up to now I haven't seen one shred of evidence to suggest that the U.N. has chosen sides or that the U.N. is an Arab tool. But maybe you could disprove my opinion with more information?
Cast your gaze upon the UN and tell me how many Arab/ Muslim nations there are as opposed to Israel (and the USA). Surely you must have noted just how busy the UN is with Israel as opposed to other conflict area's... hmmm.gif


QUOTE(Renger)
The fact that Hezbollah misuses the presence of U.N. unarmed troops does not automatically mean that the U.N. sympatizes with this fighting faction. What could they have done to stop this? Attack them with sticks and stones?
They could withdraw and refuse to be a party to the conflict.

You asked earlier on: why would anybody ever want to work for an organisation that is sacrificing its people deliberately? Why indeed! How many nations do you see rushing forwards to put their troops into a possible UN mission in South Lebanon? Those who have aired the possibility, like Turkey have only done so under the authority of NATO, because as every one knows, NATO will look after its people rather have them sitting as unarmed human shields in the middle of a battle.


QUOTE(Renger)
Attacking an U.N. base due to tactical necessity? This sounds like a weak excuse. Fact is that Israel attacked unarmed people in service of the U.N. This is an unforgivable act, as much as the fact that Hezbollah is using the U.N. as cover for their own attacks.
You are aware are you not that the quote you are refuting is actually the eye witness account of the Canadian Peace Keeper who was killed...? That in the days immedietly preceding his death, he had ample opportunity to see for himself what was going on and how Hezbollah was usng the UN as cover for its attacks.

Do you know of some other, more objective eye witness acount that renders his testimony irrellevent?
Ted
QUOTE
Did the IDF intentionally target the UN observation post?

No. They targeted the Hezbollah fighters who put themselves around the UN observers to draw fire and create the incident. This is a typical tactic along with blocking the flow of civilians out of the battle area so as to use them as shields.
QUOTE
Did it do so recklessly?

No

QUOTE
Did Kofi Annan jump to conclusions when he issued his statement?


This man is a moron who should be removed from office. He took back the remark which tell us a lot and as we have found out the UN “observers” were useless in doing what they were sent there to do - disarm malitia. Typical of the UN.
Renger
QUOTE(moif @ Jul 28 2006, 04:46 PM) *

My personal distrust for the UN comes from the Balkans, and most particularly from my brothers experiences there with the Danish military. In the Balkans, the UN allowed its personnel to come under fire, repeatedly, whilst giving strict orders to not return fire. This state of affairs carried on for months with the Serbs shelling the Danish compounds several times with long range range artillery. On other occaisions Danish peace keepers came under sniper fire, and as usual were forbidden to return fire.

Finally the Serbs launched an ambush against a Danish armoured unit and the Danish commander returned fire on his own authority. With seven Leopard 1 tanks, all painted white, the Danes fought and destroyed the Serb armour, sparing only those vehicles whose weapons remained cold in the IR. For this act of clear self defence, the Danish commander was reprimanded by the UN.

The Serbs had been out to remove the Danes from the region so they could attack a Bosnian Muslim area with impunity. The Danish commanders actions probably saved hundreds, if not thousands of civilians yet he was punished for jeopardizing the neutrality of the UN.

I see clear parrallels with the Balkans in South Lebanon.


I am a bit confused here Moif. It seems to me that you are talking about the effectiveness of and unity within the U.N.. I must say that I also have strong scepsis about the way the U.N. operates. (The Dutch also came into trouble during the Balkan Wars because of miscommunication, lack of effectiveness and conflicting interests during the Srebrenica massacre. But this is something different then saying that there is a supposed plan in the U.N. to hinder the Israeli forces in their campaign against Hezbollah.

QUOTE
Cast your gaze upon the UN and tell me how many Arab/ Muslim nations there are as opposed to Israel (and the USA). Surely you must have noted just how busy the UN is with Israel as opposed to other conflict area's... hmmm.gif


Please reread the sentence in bold cause it seems like kicking in an open door. Of course there are more Arab/Muslim nations than Israel and the U.S., there are probably more Arab/Muslim nations than nations from the entire Western world in the U.N. But there is not one Muslim nation as permanent member in the Security Council. And couldn't it be that the U.N. is more active towards Israel because this entire conflict has an enormous destabilising effect on the Middle East and that finding a sollution for this conflict is considered a top-priority? hmmm.gif

QUOTE
You are aware are you not that the quote you are refuting is actually the eye witness account of the Canadian Peace Keeper who was killed...? That in the days immedietly preceding his death, he had ample opportunity to see for himself what was going on and how Hezbollah was usng the UN as cover for its attacks.

Do you know of some other, more objective eye witness acount that renders his testimony irrellevent?


Moif I am not refuting what the Canadian peace-keeper, as an eye-witness, saw. What I am challenging is the fact that Israel out "of tactical necessity", was forced to attack an U.N. post and that they have killed four innocent people. Israel should have tried to find another sollution for this "tactical' problem. It was a bad call and it has harmed Israel internationally.

Google
Typhon08


Did the IDF intentionally target the UN observation post?

I highly doubt it, IDF knows that the majority of the UN sides with them, and it would be extremely foolish to deliberately target a UN outpost. As for hitting it on accident? Surely it would be the case. But nobody will know until an in depth investigation takes place.

The consequences of deliberately targeting a UN outpost would be incredibly severe, and likely cripple Israel's objective. The UN would be furious if they learned it was a target, and that Israel failed to warn anyone in that area of an impending attack, none the less, an attack against the UN. I think if they had targeted it, they would have informed the UN their outpost was going to be blown away, and to evacuate the personell inside...

unless they deliberately attempted to kill the people inside as well.


brinn
QUOTE("Renger")
Come on Moif, now you are just following the war rhetoric of one of the fighting parties. Up to now I haven't seen one shred of evidence to suggest that the U.N. has chosen sides or that the U.N. is an Arab tool. But maybe you could disprove my opinion with more information?
I submit the presentation of Anne Bayefsky, senior fellow with Hudson Institute and former adjunct professor and associate research scholar at Columbia University Law School, to the UN conference confronting anti-semitism in June of 2004. I think it is one of the most eloquent and compelling speeches I have seen addressing the subject. IMHO, it provides compelling evidence that the UN, if not anti-semitic in itself, has been used by member nations to provide an anti-semitic platform.

I hope this does not violate the rule limiting posting of text as this was a public speech delivered to the UN and as such is not copyrighted. Additionally the speech would lose much of its impact and coherence if edited and excerpted.

QUOTE("Anne Bayefsky")
I appreciate the opportunity to speak to you at this first U.N. conference on anti-Semitism, which is being convened six decades after the organization's creation. My thanks to the U.N. organizers and in particular Shashi Tharoor [the undersecretary-general for communications and public information] for their initiative and to the secretary-general for his willingness to engage.

This meeting occurs at a point when the relationship between Jews and the United Nations is at an all-time low. The U.N. took root in the ashes of the Jewish people, and according to its charter was to flower on the strength of a commitment to tolerance and equality for all men and women and of nations large and small. Today, however, the U.N. provides a platform for those who cast the victims of the Nazis as the Nazi counterparts of the 21st century. The U.N. has become the leading global purveyor of anti-Semitism--intolerance and inequality against the Jewish people and its state.

Not only have many of the U.N. members most responsible for this state of affairs rendered their own countries Judenrein, they have succeeded in almost entirely expunging concern about Jew-hatred from the U.N. docket. From 1965, when anti-Semitism was deliberately excluded from a treaty on racial discrimination, to last fall, when a proposal for a General Assembly resolution on anti-Semitism was withdrawn after Ireland capitulated to Arab and Muslim opposition, mention of anti-Semitism has continually ground the wheels of U.N.-led multilateralism to a halt.

There has never been a U.N. resolution specifically on anti-Semitism or a single report to a U.N. body dedicated to discrimination against Jews, in contrast to annual resolutions and reports focusing on the defamation of Islam and discrimination against Muslims and Arabs. Instead there was Durban--the 2001 U.N. World Conference "Against Racism," which was a breeding ground and global soapbox for anti-Semites. When it was over U.N. officials and member states turned the Durban Declaration into the centerpiece of the U.N.'s antiracism agenda--allowing Durban follow-up resolutions to become a continuing battlefield over U.N. concern with anti-Semitism.

Not atypical is the public dialogue in the U.N.'s top human rights body--the Commission on Human Rights--where this past April the Pakistani ambassador, speaking on behalf of the 56 members of the Organization of the Islamic Conference, unashamedly disputed that anti-Semitism was about Jews.

For Jews, however, ignorance is not an option. Anti-Semitism is about intolerance and discrimination directed at Jews--both individually and collectively. It concerns both individual human rights and the group right to self-determination--realized in the state of Israel.
What does discrimination against the Jewish state mean? It means refusing to admit only Israel to the vital negotiating sessions of regional groups held daily during U.N. Commission on Human Rights meetings. It means devoting six of the 10 emergency sessions ever held by the General Assembly to Israel. It means transforming the 10th emergency session into a permanent tribunal--which has now been reconvened 12 times since 1997. By contrast, no emergency session was ever held on the Rwandan genocide, estimated to have killed a million people, or the ethnic cleansing of tens of thousands in the former Yugoslavia, or the death of millions over the past two decades of atrocities in Sudan. That's discrimination.

The record of the Secretariat is more of the same. In November 2003, Secretary-General Kofi Annan issued a report on Israel's security fence, detailing the purported harm to Palestinians without describing one terrorist act against Israelis which preceded the fence's construction. Recently, the secretary-general strongly condemned Israel for destroying homes in southern Gaza without mentioning the arms-smuggling tunnels operating beneath them. When Israel successfully targeted Hamas terrorist Abdel Aziz Rantissi with no civilian casualties, the secretary-general denounced Israel for an "extrajudicial" killing. But when faced with the 2004 report of the U.N. special rapporteur on extrajudicial executions detailing the murder of more than 3,000 Brazilian civilians shot at close range by police, Mr. Annan chose silence. That's discrimination.

At the U.N., the language of human rights is hijacked not only to discriminate but to demonize the Jewish target. More than one quarter of the resolutions condemning a state's human rights violations adopted by the commission over 40 years have been directed at Israel. But there has never been a single resolution about the decades-long repression of the civil and political rights of 1.3 billion people in China, or the million female migrant workers in Saudi Arabia kept as virtual slaves, or the virulent racism which has brought 600,000 people to the brink of starvation in Zimbabwe. Every year, U.N. bodies are required to produce at least 25 reports on alleged human rights violations by Israel, but not one on an Iranian criminal justice system which mandates punishments like crucifixion, stoning and cross-amputation of right hand and left foot. This is not legitimate critique of states with equal or worse human rights records. It is demonization of the Jewish state.

As Israelis are demonized at the U.N., so Palestinians and their cause are deified. Every year the U.N. marks Nov. 29 as the International Day of Solidarity with the Palestinian People--the day the U.N. partitioned the British Palestine mandate and which Arabs often style as the onset of al nakba or the "catastrophe" of the creation of the state of Israel. In 2002, the anniversary of the vote that survivors of the concentration camps celebrated, was described by Secretary-General Annan as "a day of mourning and a day of grief."

In 2003 the representatives of over 100 member states stood along with the secretary-general, before a map predating the state of Israel, for a moment of silence "for all those who had given their lives for the Palestinian people"--which would include suicide bombers. Similarly, U.N. rapporteur John Dugard has described Palestinian terrorists as "tough" and their efforts as characterized by "determination, daring, and success." A commission resolution for the past three years has legitimized the Palestinian use of "all available means including armed struggle"--an absolution for terrorist methods which would never be applied to the self-determination claims of Chechens or Basques.

Although Palestinian self-determination is equally justified, the connection between demonizing Israelis and sanctifying Palestinians makes it clear that the core issue is not the stated cause of Palestinian suffering. For there are no U.N. resolutions deploring the practice of encouraging Palestinian children to glorify and emulate suicide bombers, or the use of the Palestinian population as human shields, or the refusal by the vast majority of Arab states to integrate Palestinian refugees into their societies and to offer them the benefits of citizenship. Palestinians are lionized at the U.N. because they are the perceived antidote to what U.N. envoy Lakhdar Brahimi called the great poison of the Middle East--the existence and resilience of the Jewish state.
Of course, anti-Semitism takes other forms at the U.N. Over the past decade at the commission, Syria announced that yeshivas train rabbis to instill racist hatred in their pupils. Palestinian representatives claimed that Israelis can happily celebrate religious holidays like Yom Kippur only by shedding Palestinian blood, and accused Israel of injecting 300 Palestinian children with HIV-positive blood.

U.N.-led anti-Semitism moves from the demonization of Jews to the disqualification of Jewish victimhood: refusing to recognize Jewish suffering by virtue of their ethnic and national identity. In 2003 a General Assembly resolution concerned with the welfare of Israeli children failed (though one on Palestinian children passed handily) because it proved impossible to gain enough support for the word Israeli appearing before the word children. The mandate of the U.N. special rapporteur on the "Palestinian territories", set over a decade ago, is to investigate only "Israel's violations of . . . international law" and not to consider human-rights violations by Palestinians in Israel.

It follows in U.N. logic that nonvictims aren't really supposed to fight back. One after another concrete Israeli response to terrorism is denounced by the secretary-general and member states as illegal. But killing members of the command-and-control structure of a terrorist organization, when there is no disproportionate use of force, and arrest is impossible, is not illegal. Homes used by terrorists in the midst of combat are legitimate military targets. A nonviolent, temporary separation of parties to a conflict on disputed territory by a security fence, which is sensitive to minimizing hardships, is a legitimate response to Israel's international legal obligations to protect its citizens from crimes against humanity. In effect, the U.N. moves to pin the arms of Jewish targets behind their backs while the terrorists take aim.

The U.N.'s preferred imagery for this phenomenon is of a cycle of violence. It is claimed that the cycle must be broken--every time Israelis raises a hand. But just as the symbol of the cycle is chosen because it has no beginning, it is devastating to the cause of peace because it denies the possibility of an end. The Nuremberg Tribunal taught us that crimes are not committed by abstract entities.

The perpetrators of anti-Semitism today are the preachers in mosques who exhort their followers to blow up Jews. They are the authors of Palestinian Authority textbooks that teach a new generation to hate Jews and admire their killers. They are the television producers and official benefactors in authoritarian regimes like Syria or Egypt who manufacture and distribute programming that depicts Jews as bloodthirsty world conspirators.
Listen, however, to the words of the secretary-general in response to two suicide bombings which took place in Jerusalem this year, killing 19 and wounding 110: "Once again, violence and terror have claimed innocent lives in the Middle East. Once again, I condemn those who resort to such methods." "The Secretary General condemns the suicide bombing Sunday in Jerusalem. The deliberate targeting of civilians is a heinous crime and cannot be justified by any cause." Refusing to name the perpetrators, Mr. Secretary-General, Teflon terrorism, is a green light to strike again.

Perhaps more than any other, the big lie that fuels anti-Semitism today is the U.N.-promoted claim that the root cause of the Arab-Israeli conflict is the occupation of Palestinian land. According to U.N. revisionism, the occupation materialized in a vacuum. In reality, Israel occupies land taken in a war which was forced upon it by neighbors who sought to destroy it. It is a state of occupation which Israelis themselves have repeatedly sought to end through negotiations over permanent borders. It is a state in which any abuses are closely monitored by Israel's independent judiciary. But ultimately, it is a situation which is the responsibility of the rejectionists of Jewish self-determination among Palestinians and their Arab and Muslim brethren--who have rendered the Palestinian civilian population hostage to their violent and anti-Semitic ambitions.

There are those who would still deny the existence of anti-Semitism at the U.N. by pointing to a range of motivations in U.N. corridors including commercial interests, regional politics, preventing scrutiny of human rights violations closer to home, or enhancement of individual careers. U.N. actors and supporters remain almost uniformly in denial of the nature of the pathogen coursing through these halls. They ignore the infection and applaud the host, forgetting that the cancer which kills the organism will take with it both the good and the bad.

The relative distribution of naiveté, cowardice, opportunism, and anti-Semitism, however, matters little to Noam and Matan Ohayon, ages 4 and 5, shot to death through their mother's body in their home in northern Israel while she tried to shield them from a gunman of Yasser Arafat's al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades. The terrible consequences of these combined motivations mobilized and empowered within U.N. chambers are the same.

The inability of the U.N. to confront the corruption of its agenda dooms this organization's success as an essential agent of equality or dignity or democratization.
This conference may serve as a turning point. We will only know if concrete changes occur hereafter: a General Assembly resolution on anti-Semitism adopted, an annual report on anti-Semitism forthcoming, a focal point on anti-Semitism created, a rapporteur on anti-Semitism appointed.

But I challenge the secretary-general and his organization to go further--if they are serious about eradicating anti-Semitism:

Start putting a name to the terrorists that kill Jews because they are Jews.

Start condemning human-rights violators wherever they dwell--even if they live in Riyadh or Damascus.

Stop condemning the Jewish people for fighting back against their killers.

And the next time someone asks you or your colleagues to stand for a moment of silence to honor those who would destroy the state of Israel, say no.
Only then will the message be heard from these chambers that the U.N. will not tolerate anti-Semitism or its consequences against Jews and the Jewish people, whether its victims live in Tehran, Paris or Jerusalem.


IMHO, the evidence is difficult to dispute.
gordo
The U.N was the prime body behind Israel being a recognized state, not only that but resolution 242 basically demanded that it be recognized by its arab foes. The U.N is made up of the international community, so in that light what do you find in the middle east, much despair and hatred, so what should the U.N do? From the writings of this person you would come of with the idea that the U.N supports the destruction of Israel, moreover what should the U.N do in that light, basically condemn any acts of a nation that has people in it that do not like Israel? Will that end it, should they place embargoes on them if say a newspaper in Iran shows negative cartoons of Israelis? The U.N is in a constant state of trying to bring peace to the mideast by not subjecting the views of one nation on another, Iraq stated that Kuwait was causing havoc to its nation via the oil industry and launched a war into it, of course the international community only took a day or two to bring arms on that cause, but you can see how the U.N is harmed by the fact nations are conservative. If the U.N started to say only listen to Russia, I doubt for many to call it the U.N anymore, but the fact is the U.N by trying to achieve neutrality is most likely viewed poorly in every nation on the earth simply because it will not operate just around them, or cant. The people of Palestine know the U.N will never stop Israel, so should they say the U.N is anti Palestinian because it wont only listen to there plight, I mean they have what the believe in, should it hold no gravity at the U.N, no the U.N is stuck with this mess, or the world really.

Also this,

n.
A member of a group of Semitic-speaking peoples of the Near East and northern Africa, including the Arabs, Arameans, Babylonians, Carthaginians, Ethiopians, Hebrews, and Phoenicians.
A Jew.
Bible. A descendant of Shem.


The issue is complex, and again the world over I am sure the U.N is hated for being neutral or even trying to do such. Again the U.N was founded because of a genocide, but just like Rwanda what we find is the U.N is really the international community and its problems, it reflects in the real world and there, so progress will be slow, complex and sometimes non existent, but to say the U.N is anti semantic is pure slander, any nation could probably say the U.N is anti them, but really its nations being anti each other, and the fact that they do not have to agree or support resolutions until they feel like it, or simply put the U.N reflects the real world reality of how the international community currently stands in relation to each other, people that are just U.N cannot ever be more then a mouthpiece, they cannot order anyone to do anything really because the U.N in terms of force in any regard is made up of the nations that it represents, and the ability of the U.N to effectively resolve any issue is really the effectiveness of various nations to cooperate on any issue.

If China has a resolution passed against it, it can break it all day long as long as other nations accept it, the people that actually work at the U.N cannot do anything save produce a nasty letter. If the international community, and the nuke holders that basically run it do not care about something, the U.N will not be able to fix anything. People have a ill conception about the U.N and it shows the world over, the U.S realistically went against the U.N by invading Iraq, no one said anything about it save how stupid the U.N was, I mean really, this is the reality of the world, and of course at the U.N. The U.N should be called the un united nations, because that is the reality it faces. Then again teh U.N is basically a place were nations can try to resolve an issue, and for the most part again this process is slow to non existent.

The aspect of unarmed observers is just another aspect of that, when Iraq invaded Kuwait the U.N then were not unarmed observers, whats the difference, its nations dealing with an issue and of course this leads to the U.N dealing with an issue, that’s the difference, so don’t blame that body, blame the fact people hate each other, makes group, occupy territory and have difficulty not being conservative.

We can see this in the U.S alone within our own government, the epa is basically gagged in a basement awaiting its execution, no one is really saying anything but hey, I guess the U.S is anti environmental, being its one of two states no in support of kyoto more so, so I guess I should go the U.N, say my piece which I could back with evidence and kofi will make it all better with the support of Mexico.

Bikerdad
Questions for debate:

Did the IDF intentionally target the UN observation post?
My gut sense is "yes."

Did it do so recklessly?
No.

The unarmed observers, with a clear view of the fighting between Hizbollah and the Israelis, were apparently reporting whatever they saw, with other UNIFIL locations, over unencrypted ("in the clear") radio frequencies. This chatter could be picked up by Hizbollah. Since the Israelis have control of the air, and use aircraft and UAVs to gain an information advantage over Hizbollah, this UNIFIL chatter was giving the Hizbollah fighters information they would not otherwise have. That was endangering Israeli soldiers.

I recommend reading the entire article.

Peacekeepers that don't actually do anything resembling keeping the peace are worse than useless. UNIFIL should either beat feet or start capping Hezbollah fighters.

Did Kofi Annan jump to conclusions when he issued his statement?
Yes, he jumped to the conclusion that UNIFIL is actually doing peacekeeping. whistling.gif
Renger
QUOTE(Bikerdad @ Jul 29 2006, 07:57 AM) *

The unarmed observers, with a clear view of the fighting between Hizbollah and the Israelis, were apparently reporting whatever they saw, with other UNIFIL locations, over unencrypted ("in the clear") radio frequencies. This chatter could be picked up by Hizbollah. Since the Israelis have control of the air, and use aircraft and UAVs to gain an information advantage over Hizbollah, this UNIFIL chatter was giving the Hizbollah fighters information they would not otherwise have. That was endangering Israeli soldiers.

I recommend reading the entire article.

Peacekeepers that don't actually do anything resembling keeping the peace are worse than useless. UNIFIL should either beat feet or start capping Hezbollah fighters.

Did Kofi Annan jump to conclusions when he issued his statement?
Yes, he jumped to the conclusion that UNIFIL is actually doing peacekeeping. whistling.gif


Bikerdad I have problems in which you represent the activities of UNIFIL in this conflict. Lets view the official activities of UNIFIL as stated by the U.N. shall we? Maybe it will clear some of the misunderstandings that have arisen.

QUOTE
UNIFIL’S ACTIVITIES
�� Before the current escalation of hostilities, UNIFIL’s activities included:
⇒ Maintaining the ceasefire through patrols, observation from fixed positions and close contact with the parties;
⇒ Within its limited means and thanks to contributions of Troop Contributing Countries, assisting the civilian population with medical care, water projects, equipment or services for schools or orphanages and supplies of social services to the needy;
⇒ Clearance of mines and unexploded ordnance.
�� In the current situation, UNIFIL has seen its freedom of movement severely impaired, yet it continues to occupy all of its positions.
�� Despite the restrictions to its freedom of movement, and at great risk to its personnel, UNIFIL continues to carry out the following humanitarian activities, albeit in a limited manner:
⇒ Evacuation of civilians away from the areas of greatest conflict;
⇒ Escort of a humanitarian convoys;
⇒ Distribution of food and water to vulnerable populations;
⇒ Evacuation of wounded civilians;
⇒ Treatment of civilians at UN medical facilities;
⇒ Provision of water to local hospitals;
⇒ Evacuation of foreign nationals.

http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/factsheet.pdf
(emphasis is my own)

The U.N. is at this moment not engaged in military activities as one can see, "capping Hezbollah fighters" is and should not be their priority. Helping the civilian population who couldn't flee from the battlezone, suporting local hospitals and evacuating foreign nationals (like a Dutch family yesterday) have priority. These things are fundamental in peace-keeping activities (so I guess Kofi Annan wasn't jumping to the conclusion UNIFIL is actually trying to do some paece-keeping how difficult the situation might be.) Running away is also not an option, who will help the people who become victims in this conflict? Israel and Hezbollah are too busy fighting eachother and do not care about these people.

loreng59
Did the IDF intentionally target the UN observation post?
Not a chance in the world. Israel has no use for the UN at all, it is a worthless organization and in Lebanon has actively abetted Hezbollah. Given this they should target them, but have not.

Israel does have high-tech weapons and does use them. Are they the cure all that some here believe, no they are not. Nearly half of the IDF's casualties are from 'friendly fire', which problem is similar to the US military. Friendly fire incidents have occurred for thousands of years, this is a fact, the problem now days is that the weapons are so much more lethal, a single hit does result in more deaths than before. A couple of days prior to the strike on the UN outpost a drone open fire on an Israeli platoon from the Golani Brigade. That day Israel lost 9 nine men, five to the drone. So in theory to some here that too must have been intentional, but it was not. No military ever intensionally targets their own troops.


Did it do so recklessly?
No I think the recklessness was in the UN. Why in the world would they keep these people there? An active war is going on in front of them, they are unarmed, Hezbollah has set up firing emplacements all around their posts and they have orders to just sit there? If that is not the height of stupidity then I don't know what is.

What did the UN think was going to happen? I believe that what did happen was exactly what the UN was hoping to happen just so they would have yet another opportunity to attack Israel for their own purposes.



Did Kofi Annan jump to conclusions when he issued his statement?
No he has an agenda of hatred for Israel and his statement is consistent with that stand. He has lied repeatedly and singled out Israel for his condemnation. This is just part and parcel of is on-going attacks against a member state in total violation of the UN Charter.

for gordo

try this one from the Merriam-Webster dictionary:

anti-Semitism
One entry found for anti-Semitism.
Main Entry: an·ti-Sem·i·tism
Pronunciation: "an-tE-'se-m&-"ti-z&m, "an-"tI-
Function: noun
: hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group
- an·ti-Se·mit·ic /-s&-'mi-tik/ adjective
- an·ti-Sem·ite /-'se-"mIt/ noun

Now is there anything there about Arabs, Arameans, Babylonians, Carthaginians, Ethiopians, Hebrews, and Phoenicians?
gordo
Semite can also be used in reference to many groups of people in a historical aspect from a language and cultural basis, and one can legally still use it as a reference. I am sure the use of the term to specifically describe racial bias against Hebrews from more modern forms of discrimination such as in Russia.

As for the U.N being anti Semite, well a person can hold that view if they feel such, but I doubt for the U.N to make much if any progress if it became one sided in support for any particular nation, not only that but the actions the U.N has committed has giving me to much belief that its basically just hatred taking on other forms that leads to the U.N getting such a label, moreover its not the U.N's fault if it cannot get more attention in the form of international cooperation on an issue, would it be the fault of the U.N that no one tried to stop the genocide in Rwanda or is it more of the fact none of the member states really cared until it was all to horribly to late? So in that light one could say the U.N supports genocide, but i doubt that because it basically means the member states support genocide, being they are the ones that give any actually importance or power to resolutions that are generated by it.

As for the topic, Israel claims it can pinpoint strike, and well we pretty much already know that the idf hit the U.N post and destroyed it, for whatever reasons along with other non combatants the idf found it necessary to kill them basically, i will say that will not aid in making any nations want to send in any form of anything via the U.N, but maybe this is what Israel or the idf want, being the U.N is a useless anti Semitic body that represents a majority of national governments on the planet, so i guess what is really being said is most nations on the earth then must be anti Semite in base hmmm.gif That kind of sounds like a baseless hate fueled paranoia to me really.

There are so many resolutions around Israelis existence and relations in the mideast, maybe its the U.N trying to make some ground to a peaceful solution by giving respect to various peoples, but I would have to find in some aspect the U.N directly supporting hatred towards Israel being real, which I cannot find. The simple fact is the current resolution demanding Lebanon hold its own country and make it safe for Israel is just one example, but the fact is member states did not land a force or any real means to make this a reality in the eyes of Israel for what did eventually happen, it was not some resolution demanding Israel committing any actions was it? no it was not, it demanded that Lebanon make its land safe for the existence of Israel, that hardly sounds like anti Semitism. Iraq invaded Kuwait, and via the U.N it took 48 hours for a heavy armed response that left hundreds of thousands of Iraqi soldiers dead in small amount of time, the reality of the U.N in anything that it comes to be is the reality of actions its member states will commit to, if such states landed a real force in Lebanon, we might not see this conflict we have today, it’s the same story in Rwanda, the U.N could never get any international support to stop what occurred there, save a small amount of unarmed observers that did not even have the ability to fight in armed struggle via the orders they had, furthermore one side of the struggle there basically got nations to pull its blue helmet troops from the scene by killing a group of them, how is the U.N going to fix anything with that level of support from the international community. Remember the movie Blackhawk down, the reality that brought along that movie basically sapped American resolve to commit troops in U.N actions, and no one could get U.S support to stop the genocide, it was pretty much like this around the table internationally, so what are people at the U.N to do save get the label that must logically follow, that they support genocide.






Renger
QUOTE(loreng59 @ Jul 29 2006, 04:27 PM) *

Did the IDF intentionally target the UN observation post?
Not a chance in the world. Israel has no use for the UN at all, it is a worthless organization and in Lebanon has actively abetted Hezbollah. Given this they should target them, but have not.


Sorry Loreng but your statement makes no sense at all and I find it highly subjective. Please come with some strong, clear and undisputed evidence that would support your claim that the U.N. has actively abetted Hezbollah.

QUOTE

What did the UN think was going to happen? I believe that what did happen was exactly what the UN was hoping to happen just so they would have yet another opportunity to attack Israel for their own purposes.


"Yet another opportunity to attack Israel"? Please could you tell me what the FIRST opportunity of the U.N. was to attack Israel?

It seems that you have no clue what role the U.N. is trying to play during this conflict. Its prime object is not to attack Israel or help Hezbollah, its prime objective is to help the innocent people who are trapped in the conflict. (see my earlier post) Something both fighting parties are unwilling to do.

QUOTE
Did Kofi Annan jump to conclusions when he issued his statement?
No he has an agenda of hatred for Israel and his statement is consistent with that stand. He has lied repeatedly and singled out Israel for his condemnation. This is just part and parcel of is on-going attacks against a member state in total violation of the UN Charter.

And again Loreng please show some strong evidence for this "supposed" agenda of hatred for Israel.


QUOTE

for gordo

try this one from the Merriam-Webster dictionary:

anti-Semitism
One entry found for anti-Semitism.
Main Entry: an·ti-Sem·i·tism
Pronunciation: "an-tE-'se-m&-"ti-z&m, "an-"tI-
Function: noun
: hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group
- an·ti-Se·mit·ic /-s&-'mi-tik/ adjective
- an·ti-Sem·ite /-'se-"mIt/ noun


for Loreng, untill he shows some strong evidence to support his evidence:

Paranoia
Noun
1. A psychological disorder characterized by delusions of persecution or grandeur.
http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/...nition/paranoia

moif
QUOTE(Renger)
"Yet another opportunity to attack Israel"? Please could you tell me what the FIRST opportunity of the U.N. was to attack Israel?


QUOTE(Renger)
And again Loreng please show some strong evidence for this "supposed" agenda of hatred for Israel.
Renger, don't you have anything at all to say to the article Brinn published?

Surely you can read for yourself the many ways in which the UN has attacked Israel... huh.gif


QUOTE
It seems that you have no clue what role the U.N. is trying to play during this conflict. Its prime object is not to attack Israel or help Hezbollah, its prime objective is to help the innocent people who are trapped in the conflict. (see my earlier post) Something both fighting parties are unwilling to do.
Surely the prime object of the UN is impartiality... how can you not see that it has utterly failed in this regard?

Video showing Hezbollah using UN ambulances
gordo
Edited to remove an excess of copyrighted material. Please take the time to read the Rules. Unless you're trying to use a specific portion of an article to back up your point, a link to the article will suffice.


Also see below:
Under Fire for 6 Hours, UN Peacekeepers Pleaded for Help Before Being Killed, UN Says •

Red Cross ambulances destroyed in Israeli air strike on rescue mission

Under Fire for 6 Hours, U.N. Peacekeepers Pleaded for Help Before Being Killed, U.N. Says

Its not only this but the neutrality of the U.N is being tested everyone by not only “terrorists” but by the Israeli government.

Israel withdraws charge that driver loaded rocket into UN ambulance

And this,

UN relief agency calls for respect of its ambulance services after incident in Gaza

Here is some more,

UNRWA Demands Apology and Retraction for "Baseless Charges" Against UNRWA Ambulance Drivers (PDF Document)

Is it just a guess that maybe being I did not see any U.N personal using the vehicle that the vehicles had been misappropriated possibly? That is unless one is going to make the claim that the U.N gave the vehicles fully knowing that such a use was going to be the one made? I mean after all its not like such tactics are used in Iraq with people using Iraqi army uniforms to conduct operations against targets.
brinn
QUOTE("Renger")
And again Loreng please show some strong evidence for this "supposed" agenda of hatred for Israel.
I hope Loreng will forgive me for jumping in on this one.

Consider the semantic games that have been persistent in the UN. For example, when the UN first adopted an international convention against racial discrimination in 1965, it refused to include a reference to anti-Semitism because the Soviet Union, its satellites, and its Arab allies insisted that anti-Semitism was a question "not of race" but "of religion", yet when the UN later adopted a resolution on religious intolerance known as The Durban Declaration, the lead sponsor, Brian Cowen of Ireland, insisted that anti-Semitism should be omitted because it was a matter not a matter of religion but rather race.

Consider the infamous “Zionism is Racism resolution” (UNR 3379 established in 1975 and then repudiated in 1991 with the staunch support of the US) which specifically charges Israel with practicing racism. It was a savvy move as it introduced the concept of “Zionism” and moved antisemitism beyond the discussion of race or religion and into a political, and therefore more acceptable, form. In effect it makes antisemitism safe from challenge as intolerance or racism (i.e. I don’t dislike Jews, I just don’t like Israel’s policies).

Additionally let me list several other examples of what, if not outright anti-semitism, could only, kindly, be called a double standard:

- Currently there are several committees to address the plight of Palestine: The Committee on the Exercise of the Inalienable Rights of the Palestinian People, the Division on Palestinian Rights and the Special Committee to Investigate Israeli Practices affecting the Human Rights of the Palestinian People and Other Arabs to name a few, but none for Israel.

- A special rapporteur mandated by the U.N. Commission on Human Rights reports regularly to the U.N. on "discrimination against Muslims and Arab peoples in various parts of the world" including any "physical assaults and attacks against their places of worship, cultural centers, businesses and properties." In fact, an entire 2003 Commission resolution "combating defamation of religions," mentions only prejudice against Muslims, Arabs and Islam specifically.

- The U.N. has repeatedly held "Emergency Special Sessions" focusing solely on Israel. No Emergency Special Sessions were convened to examine the genocide in Rwanda, ethnic cleansing in the former Yugoslavia or other major world conflicts.

- The U.N. has never initiated any inquiry into Yasir Arafat and the Palestinian Authority's role in aiding and abetting terrorists, or passed one resolution condemning any terrorist organization operating against Israel.

- The concealment and vehement denial of the existence of videotape of Hezbollah's abduction of three Israeli soldiers made by U.N. peacekeeping forces in Lebanon. For 11 months, the U.N. lied to the world and denied the existence of any evidence related to the abduction. When the cover-up was exposed, revealing the existence of the videotape, the U.N. eventually showed Israel a heavily edited videotape with the faces of the terrorists blurred. When asked the reason behind this, U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan stated it was due to the U.N.'s standing as a neutral organization.

- Though anti-Semitic canards often go unchallenged in the UN, the mere reference in the 1997 Commission on Human Rights to an allegedly blasphemous reference to Islam, by a UN expert and from an academic source, brought a rebuff by consensus by the Chair, and the deletion of the offending sentence. In contrast, during the 1991 session of the Commission on Human Rights, the Syrian Ambassador repeated the Damascus Blood Libel that Jews killed Christian children to use their blood to make Matzoth. This anti-Semitic libel went unchallenged until the US exerted enormous pressure to procure a challenge to this libel in the record, and then only months after the Syrian representative emphasized to the Commission, "it's true, it's true, it's true."

- In 2004 UN Special Advisor to the Secretary General, Lakhdar Brahimi, on French radio actually stated “The great poison in the [middle east] is this Israeli policy of domination and the suffering imposed on the Palestinians as well as the equally unjust support of the United States for this policy”.

- On 11 March 1997, the Palestinian representative charged, in a chamber packed with 500 people including the representatives of 53 states and hundreds of non-governmental organizations, that the Israeli Government had injected 300 Palestinian children with the HIV virus. Despite the repeated interventions of the Governments of Israel and the US, and UN Watch, this modern Blood Libel stands unchallenged and unrefuted on the UN record. No appropriate action by any UN body or official has been taken to date. The Chairman of the Commission on Human Rights agreed to place on the record his letter to the Ambassador of Israel, sharing his "concern as to the charge made" against Israel -- "an allegation made without evidence, on the basis of a newspaper article ... proved completely false." The Chairman reneged on his agreement after he was called to task by a delegation of Arab Ambassadors and received no support from other regional groups. Blood Libels are vicious and persistent carriers of anti-Semitism. The latest PLO Blood Libel bears the imprimatur of the UN record and has yet to be removed by consolidated action of the Commission or by any UN agency or official on the public record. (Nor was there any rebuke in 1992 to a UN document circulated in the Commission by the PLO observer, which stated that Israelis "celebrating ...Yom Kippur, are never fully happy even on religious occasions unless their celebrations, as usual, are marked by Palestinian blood.")

- The Commission on Human Rights routinely adopts totally disproportionate resolutions concerning Israel. I submit as evidence:

* Of ten emergency special sessions called by the GA, six have been about Israel. No emergency sessions have been held on the Rwandan genocide, ethnic cleaning in the former Yugoslavia, or the two decades of atrocities in Sudan.

* At the U.N. Commission on Human Rights in Geneva, only Israel has its own agenda item [item 8] dealing with alleged human rights violations. All other countries are dealt with in a separate agenda item [item 9]. More than one quarter of the resolutions condemning a state's human rights violations adopted by the Commission over the past 40 years have been directed at Israel.

* Until recently, Israel was the only member nation consistently denied admission into a regional group. The Arab states continue to prevent Israeli membership in the Asian Regional Group, Israel's natural geopolitical grouping. As a result, Israel sought entry into the Western and Others Group (WEOG) and was granted admission in May 2000 to that regional group in New York, but not in Geneva. Israel's full participation in the U.N., therefore, is still limited and it is restricted from participating in U.N.-Geneva based activities.


Additionally, a study was conducted in August 2003 by the United Nations Association of the UK to determine if there is a lack of balance in the language of UN resolutions on the Israeli-Palestinian issue and whether the language in these resolutions contribute positively to the peace process in the Middle East. The conclusions follow:

Conclusions:

On the basis of the UNSC and UNGA Resolutions assessed, the United Nations was found to be palpably more critical of Israeli policies and practices than it is of either Palestinian actions or the wider Arab world. However, criticism is not necessarily a product of bias, and it is not the intention here to suggest that UNGA and UNSC reproaches of Israel stem from prejudice. From the perspective of the UN, Israel has repeatedly flouted fundamental UN tenets and ignored important decisions. Omitting a recognition of Israel’s breach of international law in subsequent resolutions would diminish the credibility of UN authority and of its legitimacy as the
primary guarantor of international peace and security. Whether or not the decisions themselves are based on completely accurate interpretations of events is an entirely separate issue. Because of the more pronounced level of criticism in the General Assembly Resolutions, it was thought superfluous to give each resolution an individual score. With a few exceptions, the UNGA
Resolutions are more or less critical towards Israel and express sympathy with the Palestinian experience. The UNSC Resolutions evaluated were less uniform in their censure of Israel; it was thus more feasible to give each resolution a negative or neutral figure, depending on its perceived treatment of Israel. A negative figure was generally given when the condemnations of Israeli
policies were explicit. However, it should be noted that this “method” is highly subjective, imprecise and potentially misleading.

Security Council Resolutions:
Given the permanent membership of the United States on the United Nations Security Council, the UNSC Resolutions over this period were predictably neutral towards Israel. Actions, such as “the excessive use of force”, were condemned, but the agent of such force was rarely named explicitly. George Bush, incidentally, has pledged to veto any resolution condemning Israel which
does not also denounce terrorism orchestrated against Israel.

General Assembly Resolutions:
As one would expect, resolutions passed in the same period by the General Assembly were far more explicit in their condemnation of Israel. Underpinning these resolutions is the conviction that Israel is in clear breach of international law, the implications of which were stated to extend beyond the region to threaten global peace and stability as a whole. It is repeatedly stressed throughout the resolutions that international consensus favours the Palestinians. Israeli actions are attributed with thwarting Palestinian socio-economic and educational development and are implicated, furthermore, in impairing the psychological health of Palestinian children. Violence perpetrated against Israeli civilians, including the use of suicide bombers, is mentioned only a few times and then in only vague terms. Violence against Palestinian civilians, on the other hand, is described far more explicitly. Israeli occupying forces are condemned for the “breaking of bones” of Palestinians, the tear-gassing of girls’ schools and the firing on hospitals in which a specific number of women were said to be giving birth.


As the UN continues to allow Arab countries to conscript UN processes to aid their war against the Jewish state, the weaknesses of the system become apparent. Every advantage that Arabs have gained over Israel at the U.N. proclaims the strength of autocracies and dictatorships over liberal democracy. This lesson is reinforced every time there is a condemnation of the Jewish state.

P.S.
It is also interesting to note the effect that Anne Bayefsky’s speech, which I previously reprinted, had on the UN conscience: In December of 2003 a draft resolution on anti-Semitism, which would have been a first in the U.N.'s 58-year history, was withdrawn in the face of Arab and Muslim opposition.



Bikerdad
sigh...

I did suggest that y'all read the entire article I linked:

here's more from it...

Then again, the UNIFIL post was right in the middle of a battlefield. There was a furious firefight going on around the UNIFIL position, and the Hizbollah gunmen were using the UNIFIL position for cover from Israeli fire (an old Hizbollah tactic.) Ya know, whenever I had to play peacekeeper between my boyos, if one of them hid behind me while still trying to hit his brother, I'd smack him. Standing there and allowing him to hide is aiding and abetting him.

The Israeli damage to the UN bunker may well have been accidental.

Then again, Israeli troops have complained to UNIFIL about this sort of loose talk, and inadvertent shelter for enemy troops, before, but such complaints have been brushed aside. The Israelis have caught some UNIFIL actually working for Hizbollah, and many more of the UN troops developed very friendly relations with Hizbollah. There was always a practical reason for this. When UN troops give Hizbollah a hard time, Hizbollah is not bashful about threatening the UN troops with violence. But the UNIFIL/Hizbollah cooperation goes beyond idle chatter. At about the same time the UNIFIL troops were killed, other UNIFIL troops were repairing roads in the area that had been bombed by the Israelis. UNIFIL engineers were making the repairs so UNIFIL vehicles could use the roads again, but UNIFIL was not going to do anything to keep Hizbollah off the newly repaired roads.


The UN has a tragic tendency to adopt a passive, weak neutrality, rather than a muscular neutrality, and this is the result. Dead UN observers. Sorry, but in the real world, peacekeeping means more than being a pacifist and standing between two warring parties, it means being prepared to actively defend yourself, the innocent civilians, and smacking down those who disturb the peace.
gordo
The UN has a tragic tendency to adopt a passive, weak neutrality, rather than a muscular neutrality, and this is the result. Dead UN observers. Sorry, but in the real world, peacekeeping means more than being a pacifist and standing between two warring parties, it means being prepared to actively defend yourself, the innocent civilians, and smacking down those who disturb the peace.

quoted from bikerdad.

that is the root of the problem though, for the U.N to land a force that is to actually engage in drawn out combat it can only do this via support of what it really is, the international community. If nations will not give up troops to say actually engage in combat but more in just a passive role that is all they can do then, this is evident in so many U.N based actions being any resources the U.N has is resource member states have allowed or giving up to the U.N for such a purpose but of course the amount of red tape if you will on such is usually going to lead to such a resource being heavily impaired in many ways, and humanitarian efforts or peace keeping efforts the U.N is able to get off the ground or resolutions for that matter are a direct product of the international community coming together on an issue. Just as now the U.N as a body is completely different giving just a few leadership changes around the world, but people will not reference the U.N for that reality just more or less refer to it as if it were its own nation with its own forces and resources. So will actions that could be called anti Semitic come to bear at the U.N, of course they will in some regard, more so depending on who is making the perceptual call on it, but the simple fact is anti Semitism exists in the world and in cultures that have governments, and of course this issues have to be worked on, but exiting a strategy of neutrality will not be successful in this regard, I mean should the U.N make a policy to abandon the mideast simply because say in Jordan a terrorist cell exists that the Jordanian government cannot abolish that is anti Semitic, and the reality is that same international community is calling for Iran to stop nuclear production but you dont hear them calling for Israel to disarm those same weapons, that in itself could be looked upon as nothing more then bias, who is raising any flags there. Again the resolution on Lebanon was in support of Israel, and of course the U.N has resolutions that demand Israel be a recognized state, I find it hard to believe that in the claims that the U.N is now historically anti Semitic that anything like this would come about, what I do find easier to believe is that the problems that world faces would come to bear at the U.N being it is a collection of the worlds governments. We are now leaking into that idea that the U.N is a body to represent Islam basically, when will the absurdity stop really. Every nation on earth runs an overall conservative policy, so in this regard for the U.N to adopt being neutral, its basically going to mean that the U.N is riddled with problems, which I will admit is very easy to see, even the idea of ambulances becomes a hard sought battle with everyone pointing fingers.

You can see this reality in single nations, with factions either political or other warring over control of issues, would it be some left field idea to think the U.N might face this reality being its nothing more then a place for the international community to try and resolve issues?
A left Handed person
Did the IDF intentionally target the UN observation post?

Situational evidence seems to be in the favor of answering yes to the above question, but I can't see any motive for Israel killing UN observers, so I suppose I would take Israel at its word when it said it was an accident based upon the presumption that Hezbollah units were based in the area.

Did it do so recklessly?

I don't think it did so.

Did Kofi Annan jump to conclusions when he issued his statement?

Maybe, but he does have evidence in his favor.
gordo
Consider the infamous “Zionism is Racism resolution” (UNR 3379 established in 1975 and then repudiated in 1991 with the staunch support of the US) which specifically charges Israel with practicing racism. It was a savvy move as it introduced the concept of “Zionism” and moved antisemitism beyond the discussion of race or religion and into a political, and therefore more acceptable, form. In effect it makes antisemitism safe from challenge as intolerance or racism (i.e. I don’t dislike Jews, I just don’t like Israel’s policies).

quote from brinn.

Well wow, so I guess if a person was against any action Israel commits, such as maybe being anti environmental in some aspect I therefore must be anti Semitic, that makes all the sense in the world. I think it would be fair to say that a person in a free society could accept the idea that its ok to judge from your position the actions of a nation, if that somehow means you hate the people there then that is for you to make that jump and really I cannot see any logic in that area. Its like the U.S, with all the people that support bush saying its the real patriotic thing to do, or that bush embodies patriotism and love of your county and to disagree means you happen to one hate your country or two be unpatriotic. So then for me to accept and love my country in that regard means I have to love bush and all the things he does like bash gay people and destroy the environment and generally a million other things I despise, but no one else sees that angle, just the aspect of basically in tyrant form imposing your will on others as the correct thing to do then despise others that commit such actions under a different flag.

So in that regard to hold any disagreement against any Israeli policy international must be anti Semitic basically is to assume if you don’t want to be labeled a racist you must agree with everything Israel does?

Ha, never, no nation will get that from me. Just now on this board we have multiple people and there posts that would subscribe that we need to exterminate Islam for whatever reasons and that the U.N should go along with it and what that all means. I can see why people like scientists abandon nations that go to war, it truly is sick really, or some sickness if i could go so far. Maybe global warming is not a bad thing, and like nukes it will bring to the table another reason to work towards peace, i mean after 50% of the worlds species die out and warfare is being waged for rotten meat people might want a different future for themselves and of course its offspring.

The fact is Israelis policy in Lebanon currently is killing large numbers of non combatants and how after multiple attacks and the death of U.N observers placed there in support of Israel its wrong somehow to hold any form of disagreement with such action because its ok that Israel did those things and everyone should just be fine with whatever Israel comes to do in the mideast because it’s the right thing to do. In that light what would a person be called that accepted anything the PLO did, probably sick mentally among other things I imagine. Moreover many people should just come out and say it like some that they hate Arab people and Islam in general.







moif
QUOTE(gordo @ Jul 30 2006, 02:26 AM) *

Is it just a guess that maybe being I did not see any U.N personal using the vehicle that the vehicles had been misappropriated possibly? That is unless one is going to make the claim that the U.N gave the vehicles fully knowing that such a use was going to be the one made? I mean after all its not like such tactics are used in Iraq with people using Iraqi army uniforms to conduct operations against targets.
Iraq is a poor choice of analogy since the UN has been chased out of that country, but yes, the jihadi's are not above dressing up in UN uniforms... I won't attempt to deny that for its obviously true... but I wonder where they got the ambulances from?

Is there a ready market for second hand ambulances in the Middle East?

Or how about IL-76 cargo planes?

As you can see in this article such an aircraft, clearly marked with the UN flag, has beeen used twice to bring in weapons and supplies for the jihadi's in Somalia. Is there a parrallel?

It seems to me that the enemy, under which ever guise it chooses to adopt, be it Hamas, Hezbollah, al qaeda or what ever, uses our weaknesses against us. The misguided belief that the UN retains any sort of moral equilibrium is flawed. The organisation has been infiltrated and corrupted by Arabic and Muslim groups against democratic values. It trumpets its neutrality when ever it is called upon to help the cause of democracy and lends a helping hand to those who would destroy democracy.

edited to add this link which ponders on the role of one Victor Bout in smuggling weapons to the jihadi's.
Mrs. Pigpen
QUOTE(Bikerdad @ Jul 29 2006, 10:50 PM) *

Then again, the UNIFIL post was right in the middle of a battlefield. There was a furious firefight going on around the UNIFIL position, and the Hizbollah gunmen were using the UNIFIL position for cover from Israeli fire (an old Hizbollah tactic.) Ya know, whenever I had to play peacekeeper between my boyos, if one of them hid behind me while still trying to hit his brother, I'd smack him. Standing there and allowing him to hide is aiding and abetting him.


Good analogy. Sometimes you just have to state the obvious. smile.gif If Hizbollah is hiding behind the UN, the UN is enabling Hizbollah. This is not a position of neutrality. I don't see an Israeli flag flying next to the Hizbollah one on the UN buildings....

I'll add though, that I don't agree with those who believe that the UN is purposefully intending to take a side against Israel here, but they simply are because they aren't protecting the sovereignty of their position, which the job requires. It's an inherent problem in the function of the UN and peacekeeping forces for these sorts of missions.

Let's examine where and how many of these UN troops are gathered in the first place. Each government contributing troops to a UN operation receives a certain amount for each soldier, each day. A government like Denmark or Australia gives this money to the individual soldiers, or at least pay a livable wage. But, most of the troops conducting these missions for the UNIFIL are from places like China, India, the Ukrain and Ghana...not because of these countries' commitment to security in Lebanon, but because it provides a steady influx of hard currency to the state. How hard can one expect them to defend these positions, in which they have absolutely no personal interest in the first place, placed in harm's way so that their government can rake in money over their backs, possibly over their dead bodies....particularly when much of their mandate forbids them from even adequately defending THEMSELVES?

They should leave, their presence is making the situation worse, and they are enabling Hizzbolah (albeit inadvertently, IMO) with equipment and safe zones.
moif
Mrs Pigpen.

My view is simple enough. When the UN understood it was being used, for what ever reason, by Hezbollah against Israel, then it ought to have made this clear in a report to the UNSC and withdrawn from the region.

Once its neutrality has been compromised then the UN has no place in a conflict. Indeed, the UN has no place in any war since UN peace keepers are only supposed to be put into a region once a peaceful cease fire has been declared and the foundation for viewing the UN as biased comes about from this stubborn insistence on its retaining a presence in a combat zone.

Once fighting breaks out the UN should either withdraw or defend itself. Defending oneself is not a breach of neutrality!
Genesisblade
QUOTE(Bikerdad @ Jul 30 2006, 03:50 AM) *

The Israeli damage to the UN bunker may well have been accidental.

It was a laser guided bomb, and viewers watched the recorded video of the bomb as it narrowed in right on the UN marked building inside the UN marked walls. Please tell me again how it was accidental, when these bombs are accurate enough to be aimed through windows... how, the person in charge of guiding the bomb could see EXACTLY what he was aiming at. If there had been a Hizbollah shelter right next to the wall, it could have hit it. It didn't. To claim it was anything other than deliberate is absurd even with the very best of Israel-protecting intentions. Why is it always someone else's fault, and never that of Israel? "It's the UN's fault for getting in the way of our bombs". It's the children's fault for sheltering in a building. It's the children and women's fault for driving away from the area (as directed by the Israel army). It's pathetic.

QUOTE('MrsPigpen')
Good analogy. Sometimes you just have to state the obvious. If Hizbollah is hiding behind the UN, the UN is enabling Hizbollah. This is not a position of neutrality. I don't see an Israeli flag flying next to the Hizbollah one on the UN buildings...
... right. huh.gif The UN there is a BUILDING. You can't expect it to move. You COULD expect an army not to blow it up without actual cause. As for hiding, Israel would know all about that, hiding as it has behind the US for a very long time. The US has been enabling Israel to continue its illegal acts, today described as war crimes by the UN, and has been funding and supplying its military - also done without the permission of those countries it refuels in enroute.

It is increasingly suggested that Israel is the US' front line against the Arab world, and is happy to continue the US foreign policy towards the region. Excuse me as I await the inevitable backlash, which will no doubt cause the US and UK to come and aid Israel again for taking on its neighbours.
Renger
QUOTE(Bikerdad @ Jul 30 2006, 04:50 AM) *

Ya know, whenever I had to play peacekeeper between my boyos, if one of them hid behind me while still trying to hit his brother, I'd smack him. Standing there and allowing him to hide is aiding and abetting him.


And what would you do if your other kid is starting to hit you (dad the peacekeeper) because his brother is hiding behind you?

QUOTE('Mrs. Pigpen')
When UN troops give Hizbollah a hard time, Hizbollah is not bashful about threatening the UN troops with violence. But the UNIFIL/Hizbollah cooperation goes beyond idle chatter. At about the same time the UNIFIL troops were killed, other UNIFIL troops were repairing roads in the area that had been bombed by the Israelis. UNIFIL engineers were making the repairs so UNIFIL vehicles could use the roads again, but UNIFIL was not going to do anything to keep Hizbollah off the newly repaired roads.


So repairing roads so evacuations of innocent people from the battlefield can continue is cooperation with Hezbollah? UNIFIL does not have any military personel in Lebanon! Should they stop humanitarian aid, leaving innocent people to their fate, just because they do not have the ability to defend these roads?

QUOTE('Bikerdad')

The UN has a tragic tendency to adopt a passive, weak neutrality, rather than a muscular neutrality, and this is the result. Dead UN observers. Sorry, but in the real world, peacekeeping means more than being a pacifist and standing between two warring parties, it means being prepared to actively defend yourself, the innocent civilians, and smacking down those who disturb the peace.


Which of course would mean the following: if Hezbollah would use U.N. bases as cover to attack innocent people in Israel with their rockets they should be attacked, if Israel attacks U.N. posts or its close surroundings in South-Lebanon or shoots down U.N. ambulances it should be attacked with similar vigour.
If the U.N. would choose to get involved in this conflict with military means without loosing its credibility as neutral party this would be the only answer. But in all honesty would the U.N. ever adopt such a strategy? Would, for example, the U.S. allow the U.N. to use force against Israeli forces? Would the majority of Muslim nations represented in the U.N. approve with a fierce military campaign against Hezbollah? The answer to both questions would probably "no way!!". I would like to see the U.N. actively defend itself against anybody that threatens it, but this is due to the nature of the U.N. an impossibility.

QUOTE('Mrs. Pigpen')

They should leave, their presence is making the situation worse, and they are enabling Hizzbolah (albeit inadvertently, IMO) with equipment and safe zones.


QUOTE(moif @ Jul 30 2006, 03:23 PM) *

Once its neutrality has been compromised then the UN has no place in a conflict. Indeed, the UN has no place in any war since UN peace keepers are only supposed to be put into a region once a peaceful cease fire has been declared and the foundation for viewing the UN as biased comes about from this stubborn insistence on its retaining a presence in a combat zone.


Leaving South-Lebanon is not an option. UNIFIL is one of the few organisation that try to help the innoccent civilians in the region. Although Israel bombartments and Hezbollah activities severly limit the effectiveness of the U.N. it is still trying to do everything possible to help the innoccent. This stance in times of war should not be criticized, it should be supported.

July, 25th, 2006

QUOTE
This morning, Unifil provided a humanitarian escort for foreign nationals form the villages of Aitaroun, Ramiyh, Bayit Lif, Haris and Dibil, to Tinbin and further to Tyre. Similar humanitarian convoys, intended for Yarun, Rmaich and Ayn Ibil, were unable to reach their destination.


July, 26th, 2006
QUOTE
A French ship, which arrived to the waters of Naqoura yesterday morning, continued to deliver a critical supply of water, fuel and food to UNIFIL. The ship is also to evacuate a number of UN dependants and foreign nationals who were extricated from the border areas by UNIFIL. Sixty eight UN dependents and foreign nationals boarded the ship for evacuation yesterday. Today, UNIFIL provided escorts for another 120 UN dependents and foreign nationals from Rmaich and the neighboring villages to Naqoura for evacuation with the ship.

UNIFIL conducted one medevac, four humanitarian, and three re-supply convoys yesterday. One Lebanese Army soldier was medically evacuated from a UN position in Ras Naqoura to the UNIFIL Naqoura hospital. One wounded soldier of the Lebanese Joint Security Forces was medically evacuated by UNIFIL from Ramyah to the hospital in Tibnin.


July, 27th, 2006
QUOTE
Over 600 civilians from Naqoura, Alma Ash Shab, and other neighboring villages were sheltered inside the UNIFIL Headquarters in Naqoura yesterday, and provided with food and water. UNIFIL also provided humanitarian escorts to a group of 250 of them yesterday from Naqoura to Tyre, and to another
group of around 300 this morning. Around 100 civilians still remain in the UNIFIL compound. The ICRC distributed this morning some food to UNIFIL in Naqoura for the remaining group. UNIFIL hospital in Naqoura provided treatment for 39 civilians.

Approximately 1000 local civilians from Alma Ash Shab, Al Bustan, Yarin, Al Duharya, and other neighboring villages, were sheltered inside a UNIFIL position of the Ghanaian battalion in the area of Al Duharya at noon
yesterday. Around 670 of them left the position for Tyre later in the afternoon. A group of 330 remained inside the position, and UNIFIL will attempt to provide a humanitarian escort and transportation for them to Tyre today. There were other reports of convoys of civilian cars moving from these areas in the direction of Tyre. UNIFIL evacuated some 176 UN dependents and foreign nationals from the country on board a French ship which delivered supplies to UNIFIL in Naqoura yesterday.


July, 28th, 2006
QUOTE
UNIFIL provided humanitarian escort and transportation to a group of 278 Lebanese civilians from UNIFIL Headquarters in Naqoura to Tyre yesterday. This morning, UNIFIL provided a humanitarian escort and transportation to a group of 332 Lebanese civilians from a Ghanaian battalion position in Al Duhayra to Tyre. Another humanitarian escort is planned for today to transport 112 civilians from a Ghanaian position in the area of Alma Ash Shab to Tyre. There were also reports of convoys of civilian cars moving from areas of Ramyah and Yarin. UNIFIL hospital in Naqoura provided medical assistance to 19 Lebanese civilians. UNIFIL also provided assistance and escort to the civilian authorities to repair and restore electricity and water supply in the areas of Marjayoun and Ibil as Saqi.
Delvy
Did the IDF intentionally target the UN observation post?
Yes, they did. Probably because of the Hezbollah action in the close proximity but they did target the observation post particularly.

Did it do so recklessly?
No, I do not believe they did so recklessly. Recklessly suggests a hasty decision or speed of action outpacing speed of thought. The number of incoming calls they received from the post in question would suggest the IDF was aware of the action it was taking and took a calculated risk.

Did Kofi Annan jump to conclusions when he issued his statement?
No. He issued his statement based upon the evidence he had to hand some of which is extremely damning. That is not to say that the operational limitations of the UN observers have not perpetuated some of the issue at hand, but his outrage is entirely justified from his point of view.

Having a strong opinion about the state of Israel, it's treatment of the native population of the area over which it governs or on it's relations with it's neighbours is not anti-semitism. Anti-Zionism is not anti-semitism. They are widely different positions. Some people find it very convenient to tag them together though, on both sides of the argument.
Mrs. Pigpen
I am hesitant, but wish to answer this....I'll admit I haven't watched the news as I have been out of town since I last posted (still am) and things may have changed, but I feel I should respond a bit here:
QUOTE(Renger @ Jul 31 2006, 06:41 AM) *

QUOTE('Mrs. Pigpen')
When UN troops give Hizbollah a hard time, Hizbollah is not bashful about threatening the UN troops with violence. But the UNIFIL/Hizbollah cooperation goes beyond idle chatter. At about the same time the UNIFIL troops were killed, other UNIFIL troops were repairing roads in the area that had been bombed by the Israelis. UNIFIL engineers were making the repairs so UNIFIL vehicles could use the roads again, but UNIFIL was not going to do anything to keep Hizbollah off the newly repaired roads.


So repairing roads so evacuations of innocent people from the battlefield can continue is cooperation with Hezbollah? UNIFIL does not have any military personel in Lebanon! Should they stop humanitarian aid, leaving innocent people to their fate, just because they do not have the ability to defend these roads?


Renger, that is not my quote. This was something on a link Bikerdad provided. I do not consider road construction to be an act of collaboration. I do consider providing equipment and cover for Hezbollah cooperation. I honestly can't imagine how anyone couldn't.

QUOTE
Which of course would mean the following: if Hezbollah would use U.N. bases as cover to attack innocent people in Israel with their rockets they