Couldn't believe that such a major news story lacked a sufficient topic of discussion and took it upon myself to instigate it and load it with questions. For those living under a rock:

Terrorist Plot Thwarted



Explosive Gel Was to Be Concealed in Sports Drink



US Posts Code Red Alert


Questions for Debate:

1) What are your feelings on the recent terrorist plot thwarted by the UK authorities?
2) What are your feelings on the level of sophistication and planning involved with the plot?
3) What domestic policies are needed to combat future attacks such as this?
4) Do you think that another terrorist attack on a large scale is inevitable?

1) What are your feelings on the recent terrorist plot thwarted by the UK authorities?
It is great that the plot was discovered, as I understand it the thanks goes directly to Pakistan that had arrested an individual involved in the plot... I wonder if they read this guys his rights stating that he could remain silent, have a lawyer present and all words he spoke could be used against him in a trial?
2) What are your feelings on the level of sophistication and planning involved with the plot?
Rather sophisticated but makes one wonder why such a method wasn’t identified by Homeland Security with all the money poured into the department... I would think there are several other ways using liquids could kill people... I remember having a stopped up drain and mixed household remedies and almost killed myself years ago with a heavy cloud of gas that poured over the sink.
3) What domestic policies are needed to combat future attacks such as this?
That is the problem... they use box cutters and we dwell on box cutters and don’t think like the moron willing to kill him/herself using ANY method as long as they take innocents with them. We need to RACIAL PROFILE all Mid East folks for a start and shake their cages when they want to board an aircraft.
4) Do you think that another terrorist attack on a large scale is inevitable?
You can bet on it!

Bush also said he will deploy 300 National Guardsmen to help California deal with the "threat."
How much you wanna bet he takes them off the Mexico/California border to do so?

What are your feelings on the recent terrorist plot thwarted by the UK authorities?

I do not trust what Bush says about anything, including more possible terrorist threats that may
perchance be tied to Al Qaida. I would like to see more solid proof.

What are your feelings on the level of sophistication and planning involved with the plot?

I'm no expert but it sounds somewhat absurd. I'd like to talk one on one to a chemical/biological
weapons expert before I pass judgment on the level of sophistication.

What domestic policies are needed to combat future attacks such as this?

Complete and thorough checks of every bag, purse, container, etc. by highly trained experts
at every airport for every flight.

Do you think that another terrorist attack on a large scale is inevitable?

This may sound very cynical but I'm 100% serious. The biggest terrorist attack is happening at the
hands of our administration. I am more worried about what they are doing with foreign policy than
I am about possible terrorism.

1) What are your feelings on the recent terrorist plot thwarted by the UK authorities?

In the past i would have been excited. Today though i am taking a wait and see approach. For alot of the facts on the situation are no more then speculation.

2) What are your feelings on the level of sophistication and planning involved with the plot?

If what being reported is true. This level of sophistication isnt high.

3) What domestic policies are needed to combat future attacks such as this?

New laws shouldnt be passed. New standards for those who fly should be set.

4) Do you think that another terrorist attack on a large scale is inevitable?

Sadly i see a few large scale terrorist acts occuring right now. Some being caused by countries aggression and politicians in the back rooms destroying our rights.

1. I'm not sure how one can feel, except to be pleased at the success of law enforcement in this case. Other than that, I don't think that this incident has made me feel any differently about any of the issues involving terrorism.

2. Although this obviously involved a great deal of careful planning by many people, and a certain degree of cleverness, I wouldn't use the word "sophisticated." As seen in the horrors of 9/11, this incident involved a very low level of technology. Such things are harder to prevent than a possible attack with high technology, I think.

3. Reasonable actions by law enforcement, as with any kind of crime. Let me address the issue of "racial profiling." There was another thread here where I stated that taking the ethnic consideration of suspects into consideration, along with other factors, can be an acceptable form of law enforcement, although it certainly provides the possibility of being abused. A policy of, say, subjecting all swarthy young males to special scrutiny, without taking other factors into consideration, is foolish and harmful to domestic tranquility.

4. Yes, just as crimes of all sorts, along with all the evils of the universe, are inevitable. We simply do the best we can to make them less common and less harmful. Perfect security is impossible.

1. I am pleased they caught this terrorist cell before they could harm more innocent lives in their quest against the west. It clearly shows that the danger of terrorism isn't over.

2. Ít shows that terrorists are trying to find ways around the tightened security at airports.

3. What I heard on the news is that a lot of scanners for hand baggage are less sophisticated than the ones used to scan the normal baggage. The main scanners can trace explosive substances, the one used for handbaggage cannot. So replacing these scanners could solve this problem.

4. Probably, but not inevitably.

1) What are your feelings on the recent terrorist plot thwarted by the UK authorities?

Feeling pretty good. Terrorism has always been a problem of policing and does not have a military solution. It has always been an international cooperative effort and not a preemptive unilateral situation. The nature of terrorism has not changed, but attitudes, especially in the US, have.

2) What are your feelings on the level of sophistication and planning involved with the plot?

Typical Al Q pattern, and a similar plot was attempted in 1999, so I hear on the morning news. That one was thwarted too.

3) What domestic policies are needed to combat future attacks such as this?

Tighter security, which is being done. The airlines don't seem to have as much resistance to tighter security, so we've gained on that issue. Be secure or go out of business--that's the reality of the 21st century.

4) Do you think that another terrorist attack on a large scale is inevitable?

We just had one. It was not successful. It was not successful because of international policing efforts. If we let our guard down, then another 9/11 could happen.

By guard, I don't mean suspending our rights either. I mean that when people enter danger zones such as airports, expect very tight security. This means inconvenience. It means looking at safer alternatives, such as conference calls instead of physical meetings. It means taking a vacation closer to home, within driving distance.

The IWoT is misnamed and was approached in the wrong manner. Overall, I feel pretty good that we've finally gotten some common sense on this whole thing. I'm looking forward to an era of avoiding new problems while working on the old ones. In effect, I see the bus coming out of the ditch.

1. I'm glad that they stopped them, obviously. It seems that the NSA program that so many liberals, leftists, and libertarians rail against paid off; and in a VERY big way. The Brits were tipped off by the US on the basis of "chatter".

2. It's a pretty simple plot. I'm sure there are an endless number of similar plots that terrorists with half a brain could try. It's not enough to just sit back and WAIT for them to do so. As President Bush said, we need to be on the offensive and preemptively engage these kooks. And I agree with that 100%. Democrats, in large number do not. They are still living in 9/10/01 it seems. And I believe that will cost them this November and ultimately be the reason why the voters do not return them to majority rule.

3. The Patriot act is a good start. I also advocate increased penetration of Islamic communities, mosques, and the like. Our country was able to address, attack, and largely minimize hate groups like the KKK, Aryan Nations, and many Biker gangs due to the penetration of covert undercover agents, informants, and the like. A similar effort is required in the Islamic community in this country and others. AT the same time, we should be actively working to undermine that "religion" since it presents no upside to western civilization. Even its "moderate" elements are reactionary, anti-woman, anti-democratic, and decidedly anti-"liberal" in the traditional liberal sense of the word.

4. Yes. What the left don't "get" is that the USA did not "create" these terrorists and that some idealistic, naive, and misguided application of the "golden rule" won't defuse these nuts if we are "nice" to them and work to "understand" their mindset. They can't be reasoned with anymore than the fanatical Japanese could be reasoned with during WWII. That is the lesson we should be studying. Millions of fanatical Japanese were willing to die in their cause and the cult of death, which is similar to what exists today in the Islamic world, was not broken until MASSIVE pain was inflicted on their society, not only their "military" people but the civilians as well. Japan was not pacified until we literally burned their cities down with napalm and then finished them off with 2 atomic weapons. That campaign took a horrific toll, but it worked. Playing paddy-cake with the Islamists as we do now in Iraq, Iran, and in other places is not a prescription for victory. The good news is that there is an upside. The Japanese are one model for a democratic, prosperous, and progressive way of life. I see no reason why the Islamic world could not eventually end up that way. But their cult of death, and their religion have to be broken first. There is no pleasant way to accomplish that, unfortunately.

Feelings in which sense? Emotionally I feel very little. A slight sense of satisfaction is tempered by the knowledge that few lessons will be learned from this in the UK.

Feelings in the sense of prediction? I think the British will continue to slumber on as the threat from multiculture grows in their midst. They will continue to ignore the fact that multiculture always evolves into monoculture and they will cling ever more desperately to the politically correct illusion they have built up around themselves in trying to seek to placate themselves that Islamic culture as it is today does not pose a threat to their country. There will be more concern paid to the meager threat of retaliation by angry Britons than to the real possibility of further attacks from British Muslims and what these mean for the future of Britain.


Sure its what we've come to expect.

I have a friend who frequently makes the London - US flight and he had predicted the use of liquid explosives as a means to getting past the security. It seems that either his predictions were either inadequate, or some one ratted out the bad guys. I'll be very interested to see how the story unfolds with this in mind.

That home grown jihadi's are smart enough to use alternative methods of attack does not surprise me. After all, Great Britain has a high level of education and presumably these people have all benefitted from that. Where better to train your terrorists than in the very heart of learning and education?

Once again, we see how our own systems are used against us.


Naming and shaming is the right start. Its about time we began calling a Islamic facism for what it is. I noted that CAIR complained about GW Bush using that phrase, Islamic fascism, on the grounds that it would alienate and provoke further aggression from western Muslims.

This provokes two thoughts in my mind. The first is, when Germany was ruled by the nazi's, the Allies did not mess about with politically correct gobbledigook about who was and who was not a nazi. The war was against Germany, not national socialism. If Muslims regret the existence of Islamic fascism, then they have the clear opportunity to take a side against it. Trying to suppress and deny it by claiming ordinary Muslims will be upset by the phrase strikes me as trying to deny Islamic fascism exists at all.

It seems to me that in the world view put forth by CAIR, we, in the west are to blame for these actions carried out against us. Their attitude resembles that of the abusive husband who shouts at his beaten wife, '"Now look what you made me do!"

The second thought that springs to my mind is similar: If ordinary Muslims so take offence at the term Islamic fascism that they are prone to violence as CAIR appears to be implying, then that doesn't say much for ordinary Muslims.
If the shoe was on the other foot, as it so often is, and I had to hear about Danish neo nazi's, then I would not feel any personal reflection for I am not a neo nazi. Denmark has been labelled 'racist' quite a lot of late due to our stricter immigration policies, but this has not provoked any violence to my knowledge.

In my opinion, any one who takes offence at being called an Islamic fascist can only do so if they are in fact an Islamic fascist.


Yes. Its just a question of time. This war is not going to end any time soon. The attacks will continue until either the whole world is Islamic or the culture of political islam has been broken.

edited to add this link to an article which describes CAIR's response to GW Bush...and for spelling

1) What are your feelings on the recent terrorist plot thwarted by the UK authorities?

I think one very positive sign is that this plot was at least partially discovered due to a tip received from a member of the British Muslim community. This was soon after the London bombings last year. Tip Followed '05 Attacks on London Transit

Intelligence officials had known about this plot for months, but allowed it to develop so that they could catch everyone. That seems odd to me not to mention risky.

Another curious aspect is that many of the plotters were second or third generation British citizens. Think about that and most people's presumption that radical Islam is motivated by Western oppression of Muslims. These were not outsiders planning on killing unknown foreigners. These were Brits who planned to murder their fellow citizens in cold blood. These were everyday Joes who nobody would suspect as being radical killers. That is not a very good sign.

Another thought is the key role that Pakistan plays in training terrorists. Pakistan has cracked down on militant groups (including Al Qaida), but officials estimate that there may be 10,000 militants in Pakistan. Most are motivated by fighting India over Kashmir, but some are anti-West fanatics. Pakistan is ground zero for terrorist training operations since the downfall of the Taliban.

2) What are your feelings on the level of sophistication and planning involved with the plot?

There isn't much new here. Peroxide based explosives have been used by terrorists for years. That includes Palestinian terrorists, Iraqi IEDs, Richard Reid's "shoe bomb", the millennium plot against LAX, and Ramzi Yousef. Source: Time magazine


3) What domestic policies are needed to combat future attacks such as this?
4) Do you think that another terrorist attack on a large scale is inevitable?

I'm going to lump these two questions together.

Anti-terror tactics seem to be reactive. Richard Reid caused a flurry of shoe searches. This plot causes us to ban liquids from coming onto planes. In Britain, cell phones and lap tops and key fobs are currently banned. We may need to accept the fact that air travel is going to be non-productive, boring time if we ban every possible explosive component or detonation device (including disposable cameras, iPods, cell phones and every other portable electronic device). Maybe we need to progress to a no carry on rule.

Eventually, however, an attack will succeed. These people are persistent. They have targeted airplanes for decades, using different tactics. It's becoming an obsession. I wonder if they realize they could kill more people by striking different types of targets. Once they do realize it, we will be caught off guard. It is simply impossible to guard against every possible type of attack.

And this is based on…..? The lordhelmet poll? No, my guess is most democrats were against the war in Iraq but believe we still need to go on the offensive as long as our efforts aren’t futile personal/nation building exercises. Unless you can prove the war in Iraq had anything to do with preventing this planned attack than your argument of “taking it to them” really doesn’t hold water here.

1) What are your feelings on the recent terrorist plot thwarted by the UK authorities?

That you don’t have to invade a country that had nothing to do with 9/11 or this most recent plan to prevent terrorism. Early indications are this was foiled by strategic cooperation and covert ops.

2) What are your feelings on the level of sophistication and planning involved with the plot?

As mentioned a similar plan was caught years ago. I wouldn’t really call this sophisticated as much as devious/sneaky. One of the “trails” was money wired to England, doesn’t sound very sophisticated.

3) What domestic policies are needed to combat future attacks such as this?

Why don’t we start by actually going after the person who planned the 9/11 attacks and by all early indications was probably involved with this plan. And we don’t need to create “terrorist training camps” like we have in Iraq.

I have mixed feelings about racial profiling, but if there was ever a case for using it this would be the alpha example.

4) Do you think that another terrorist attack on a large scale is inevitable?

They’ll continue to plot and plan.

1) What are your feelings on the recent terrorist plot thwarted by the UK authorities?

I thought we couldn’t pose “how do you feel” questions, but what the hey; you can’t tell a person their feelings are wrong. I think their security did its job. I feel the same as Doomed Planet in that the biggest threat to our security resides in the White House. The knee-jerk reaction to this whole event was banning all liquids on airplanes (and some of the things they classify as liquids crack me up…lipstick??) and raising the threat level. I notice DHS is not as keen on using the color theme as they once were.

I also feel that this is what happens when you don’t eliminate the organization responsible for the plots, or at least get its leader (remember Osama? Big tall guy with a beard?). Going off on a tangent in Iraq has only firmed up Al Qaeda’s resolve and broadened its appeal.

Lest we forget, Britain “foiled” this plot, not the US. I haven't read about any US involvement.

2) What are your feelings on the level of sophistication and planning involved with the plot?

Crude, but effective. As we saw on 9/11, a plot doesn’t have to be sophisticated to work.

3) What domestic policies are needed to combat future attacks such as this?

Enforcement of those already in place. Flying these days is at best uncomfortable and exasperating; at worst, it’s an Orwellian nightmare. At this rate, carry-on luggage will be banned and people are going to have to travel naked. There is no 100% effective way to keep a potential terrorist off a plane.

I am traveling in October (little under 500 miles) and I’m driving. The costs are about equal (what with gas prices), but the hassles of air travel just aren’t worth it.

4) Do you think that another terrorist attack on a large scale is inevitable?

As long as there are religious ideologues, yes. As long as we have the current mentality in our government, yes. As long as the west (i.e., us) continues to involve itself in the Middle East, yes. As long as Israel continues to exist, yes.

It's all a big sham and based on nothing more than rehashed tripe by the same people who brought us the illegal Iraqi debacle and the idea that if we don't support them, we'll all die. And it's all garbage of course. Why? Because. The US created Bin Laden, The US invented the name "Al-Queda". The US funded ands supplied Sadaam Hussein and shared top secret sattelite intelligence with mean scary axis-of-evil Iraq.
By the way...if the US labels Iraq and Iran and North Korea as an axis of evil, then can someone please explain why the US does busines with them?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/korea/article/0,...,952289,00.html

Out of curiosity, would you care to share with us the mountain of evidence that you surely must have to lead you to this conclusion? In nearly every post you make wild eyed claims and essentially insinuate that Islamic terrorism simply doesn't exist. But it's a safe bet that you have singularly failed to convince anybody here, because you don't bring anything to the table to prove your claim.

2) What are your feelings on the level of sophistication and planning involved with the plot?
It's part of an obvious evolution in the attempt to orchestrate terrorism via airliners. Boxcutters, knives and nail clippers are prohibited since 9-11, solid explosives such as Semtex and C4 can be detected by sniffers.......the next logical step was to devise a device using two or more common, liquid components.

4) Do you think that another terrorist attack on a large scale is inevitable?
As long as there are 13th century throwbacks who believe in the culture of death promulgated by an invisible omnipotent being, there will be the threat of large scale terror attacks.

I know that this question is not posed to me but, I would like to say a couple of things on the subject
of Islamic terrorism and U.S. security issues. George Bush pushes the "fear button" to garner support
when he needs it yet, if he were really concerned about the safety of the Unites States of America he
would have closed the borders on 9-12-01. Banning liquids on airplane rides while leaving our southern
border accessible to anyone with the mind to cross it is very peculiar.

We are naive if we believe everything the media and government report to be "true." We don't have
evidence that any of this actually occurred. We only have what we are given by various forms of
media. Then we choose to believe it or not.

DP, I agree with you completely on Bush and border security. GW has taken virtually no comprehensive and logical measures to protect the US from terrorism since 9-11. His initiatives have been a convoluted combination of feel good measures and public relations stunts.
And I personally do not believe that the alleged terrorists were affiliated with AQ. I think we are starting to deal with a host of smaller, fanatical muslim groups who may be trying to emulate AQ. Point in fact, most of the arrested suspects were married and held regular jobs. Not exactly the AQ stereotype.

But while I always take what I hear in the media and from government sources with a grain of salt, it's quite another to believe that three governments and all of their associated intelligence, law enforcement, civil servants and military personnel concocted this event, thereby making it tripe, garbage and a sham............with nary a shred of evidence, and then to immediately take a post to other non relevant pet points. I'm merely curious at how such a leap to conclusion is made.

Where have you heard that the British operation is a result of the illegal NSA spying program? Chertoff gives props to the British, Gonzales attributes the success to the “hundreds of hours of patient work by British officials” (call me crazy, but the spying program circumvents the need for patient investigation), and according to CNN Bush didn’t find out about the program until Sunday in a video conference call with Blair. “Didn't find out” sounds like we were in the dark.

What are your feelings on the level of sophistication and planning involved with the plot?
The idea of using liquids to blow up planes in a simultaneous attack first came up through “Ramzi Yousef, architect of the 1993 World Trade Center bombing” and his uncle, “Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, planner of the Sept. 11 attacks”. Yousef was turned over to American authorities by Pakistan, where he was tried in a legal court and is serving a life sentence without parole. Mohammed is probably stuck in a black site and is unlikely to face justice for the 9/11 attacks and murder of Daniel Pearl due to allegations of evidence gained by waterboarding and torture.


Do you think that another terrorist attack on a large scale is inevitable?
Yes. Today I found out about two incidents dealing with cell phones. One is a man from the Republic of Georgia, Malkhaz Zakutashvili. Apparently he slipped under INS/DHS’s radar. He looks like he could get around racial profiling, too. He’s being detained for interrogation by the FBI. Police happened on him because his vehicle didn’t have a plate. Cops found a laptop with global-positioning software.

The second story broke today. Three Pakistani men detained by local police after a WalMart clerk tipped them off on suspicion of multiple cell phone purchases.

Your NSA tax dollars not at work.

Wow. Two men were arrested yesterday in Marietta, Ohio. They were from Dearbornistan, I mean Dearborn Michigan.

Two held in Ohio on terror charge involving purchase of phones

They were caught when a Radio Shack employee tipped the local sheriff.

Tipsters are important to foiling these plots. I knew my conclusions would pan out.

The important thing is that law enforcement people not be hamstrung by laws and court rulings that make racial profiling any more burdensome than any other form of profiling. As I've said on other threads, there are other forms of profiling (such as political profiling) that are even more dangerous, but that are considered acceptable to the political powers-that-be. A scientifically valid racial profile should be no different.

In addition, airlines and other industries that might be attractive to terrorists need to be given a wide berth from agencies like the EEOC and from lawsuits alleging "discrimination". If an employer in one of these industries just doesn't feel right about a prospective employee, he shouldn't feel compelled to hire him by the government just on social grounds.

1) What are your feelings on the recent terrorist plot thwarted by the UK authorities?
Well, I'm glad that they thwarted it, if indeed the plot was really imminent. The increased restrictions on travel are, we're being told in the UK, purely precautionary, in case any of the outliers who were not at home during the midnight raids on Wednesday night are still in a position to act.
Otherwise, I'm just waiting to see if anyone will be charged and come to trial, which is the first time we'll find out what's really going on - the Contempt of Court Act prevents the British media from reporting any material details about criminal suspects on the grounds that it might prejudice any future trial. So the domestic reporting here is careful to talk about "the alleged plot". Most of what we know about the plot comes from the American media, whose First Amendment cover means they can pretty much say what they like.
But, like other poster here, it confirms my belief that the most effective way to fight terrorism is to treat as a criminal offence and use police resources and the justice system to arrest, try and convict terrorists. The only important way in which international terrorism is different from domestic terrorism is that it requires international cooperation, and the early indications are that this is just what has happened.

2) What are your feelings on the level of sophistication and planning involved with the plot?

Assuming there is a plot; recent British police actions in 'anti-terror' operations are notable only for their being nothing underneath to justify them - the fatal shooting of an unarmed Brazilian because a key surveillance operative took a rest-room break at a crucial moment; and the raiding of a Muslim family home and wounding of one of the brothers living there on a tip-off that turned out to be based on nothing.

So, giving the police the benefit of the doubt for now - the only sensible way to go forward, given the possible risk of hamstringing them and letting a real plot on these lines come to fruition - I can only say that the level and sophistication of this plot was inadequate. If they were any good they'd have succeeded.

I firmly believe that most criminals aren't nearly as smart as they think they are. Even the 9-11 plotters were more lucky that the US domestic investigating authorities didn't have their eyes on the ball than they were towering intellects who would inevitably have wreaked their terrible ideology on the world.

So, hats off to the police and security services - infiltration and intelligence are the way you emasculate terrorist organisations; in large part that's how the IRA were painted into a corner where they could either fight on with no public support or give up the gun and become ordinary citizens. (Though a bigger factor was the utter exhaustion of the ordinary citizenship with constant violence.)

3) What domestic policies are needed to combat future attacks such as this?

In the UK, it seems to have worked this time, so without becoming complacent, more of the same.

We have to review our immigration policies; not necessarily to restrict them, but just make sense of them. They're a little shambolic, not least in the unrestricted way access recent EU members have been given, especially in terms of the way local authority funding is based on the last Census and doesn't take into account large population movements since then.

And we have to change the rules for funding of religious institutions, IMO. Most of the radical mosques (and some problematic African Christian churches) are funded and often staffed by foreign radicals in Saudi, Egypt, Pakistan, etc. (Or Nigerians and other West Africans.) Domestic only-funding, and restrictions on immigration of clerics of all faiths would begin to force the process of integration. The end proccess should not be uniformity - Britain has been successfully multicultural since the before the Romans came - but total isolation isn't healthy for any minority community.

As for America, I think an urgent requirement is the raising of aiport security levels to the European average. In March 2003 I flew in & out of Boston's Logan airport (start point of two(?) of the 9-11 aircraft). While it was a little tighter than the average bus station, the police and security staff were laughably lackadaisical. One police officer was leaning on a security barrier while flirting with a female airport worker on the other side. His flap holster was open. I was close enough to reach out, grab his gun, shoot him and a full clip's worth of passers-by, and he didn't even notice me, but I guess that would have been routine US-style mass murder that seems to be treated as mundane, and not scary foreign terrorism which everyone is paranoid about. The victims would be just as dead either way. Anyway, I wrote a letter about it when I got home to Britain but heard nothing more.

4) Do you think that another terrorist attack on a large scale is inevitable?

On what timescale? Everything is inevitable if you wait long enough?

Less facetiously, yes, I think a major terrorist incident is a certainty. They happen every other day in Iraq, Isreal, Lebanon, and Gaza, to name but a few. Just because the victims are Iraqis or other nationalities doesn't make them less worrying or less in need of prevention, and the underlying problems of resolution.

However, I suspect what you're really asking is "do you think that another terrorist attack on a large scale is inevitable against America?" to which the answer is also yes. It's a modern saw, but the terrorists only have to get lucky once.