Islam is the fastest growing religion on earth, in about every country on earth, not just due to the size the thier families- but they are gaining converts in good ol' fashion evangilizing as well. We have had lot's of very harsh critisizing of this religion on numerous threads, perhaps with some deserving atributes, but I really don't want to get into that- but the opposite- something we really haven't explore the reason for the appeal in debate?

Obviously there are both ecclesiatic and dogmatic issues at play here but are there non-religious reasons that Islam is expanding so quickly? If so, what are they?"

Add a reminder for everyone to be sure not to proselytize or exchange holy text quotes and we should be good to go!

Are there non-religious reasons that Islam is expanding so quickly?

The answer to this has nothing to do with religion, but is simple demographics.

Statistics show that the percentage of Christians in the world has remained stable for decades, despite the low birth rates in Western predominantly Christian nations. Christian growth is booming in Africa and other developing nations. This was a big issue during the recent Papal elections, as these third world countries were ignored by the College of Cardinals. The majority of Catholics are located in South America and Africa.

Muslim nations, in contrast, are booming in population. Pakistan had a population of 34 million in 1950, today it is over 140 million--predominantly Muslims. Karachi alone has grown from a 1.1 million population to over 11 million today. Pakistan doesn't think it is a good thing, either: Population explosion biggest threat to country: Khalid

So I don't see this as a religious issue at all, but one of (to pardon my French) "reproducing like rabbits".

This site Islam: Truth or Myth? says that the conversion rate to Christianity is double that of that to Islam.



This site says the fastest expanding religion in the US is Wicca.

I haven't seen much in the way of saying that Islam is expanding outside of already predominantly Muslim countries except by way of immigration (in Europe, for instance).

I would also add to AMLord's observation that in places where the women begin to experience freedom from the religious and tribal/social constraints and begin to have power over their own bodies and minds that the birth rate drops. As cities begin to grow and people no longer have to work so hard to survive the family size begins to get smaller. The UN has some great studies on this as well. I would guestimate that while islam IS growing because of population, if democracy does begin to take hold in the ME and Africa and they begin to settle into nonviolent communities you will see a change in the numbers of muslims. I would also predict that the growth of christianity will also begin to slow as life gets easier in many countries.

http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9704/14/egypt.islam/

I am not going to quote Islamic sites, but I think the CNN site is a BIT more believable than "bible dot com" LOL

According to the infamous Norwegian blogger Fjordman (a favourite among European right wingers) the cause for Islamic expansion in Europe lies in the western tradition of marxist feminism and its 'war on boys'.

Link.

I don't know whether or not I fully accept the argument Fjordman makes (traditonally patriarchal societies are themselves hardly without stain, as Uncle Joe demonstrated all too well), but I do think there are a lot of problems with the tradtional feminist approach towards society and I agree that European feminists are far more inclined to accept Muslim immigration since this is blatently obvious in the Danish political landscape. I also find his point that European women are more apt to submit to Islam to be convincing since this is another blatent example from every day Danish society that it is impossible to ignore when asking why is Islam expanding so fast into Europe?

Has feminism made us weak? I think it has if strength is measured in belligerent masculinity. I think what we are seeing in Europe is a struggle between two cultures, one of which is strong in its self perception, overwhelmingly patriarchal and carrying all the typical social and gender oppression that implies and the other is weak, confused and weighed down by an internal debate surrounding every social issue along gender lines.

In other words, whilst Europeans bicker and argue about gender roles, and 'who is too blame', unsympathetic Muslims are quietly colonising Europe, using that debate as a means towards a Caliphatic end. Nationalism patriotism and other such 'aggressive masculine concepts' have been cast down and trampled on in later decades (a natural consequence of the devastation wrought by two, very masculine, world wars no doubt) by feminsist and socialists and other like minded people, bringing Europe to its current deplorable state as personified perfectly by the utterly impotent and corrupt EU with its pro Islamic immigration agenda.

Or as Jens Orback, a minister in the socialist Swedish government said; "We must be open and tolerant towards Islam and the Muslims because when we become the minority they will be so towards us."

Hadn't even thought about it from that point of view there Moif-

so, I am thinking you are saying that our own de-masculinization has made us weak when approached by a stronger, if not as "enlightened" society, so that stronger (in the sense that it DOESN'T accept assimilaion, but rather, demands other cultures submits to it) Muslim society overwhelms the society with a respect for other cultures, instead of a more robust, if not outright violent, reaction to that invading "culutre"

Your link doesn't refute what AMlord said about demographics. I think most of the growth of this religion within the US is almost entirely due to immigration and demographics (not entirely, but almost entirely). I'd hazard a guess that there are at least as many Muslim converts to Christianity within the US as there are new converts to Islam.

The spread of the religion in third-world countries is a different matter. In the typically impoverished society, religion is not a matter of choice. It can't be. In a wealthier societies, many of the "tragedies of the commons" can be resolved by creating private property for scarce resources, but that solution is only available where the governments are strong and effective enough to weild the physical power needed to protect freedoms and enforce property rights. This is something that is very easy to forget, and a fact we take for granted daily. In countries where Islam is expanding at the highest (new, non-birth related) rates, this isn't the case. It is no coincidence that freedom of religion (and democracy, for that matter, or other freedoms for the individual), prized in our society, is not so important in societies with underdeveloped markets and weak and/or corrupt and arbitrary governments.

Koranic law is well matched to the rigors of justice in areas where the social order has broken down. The perfect example is Somalia, having been ruled by various mobs for over a decade, the ICS (Islamic court system) has taken over the country and had a stabilizing influence. The port in Mogadishu has opened for the first time in 11 years. Does the ICS respect human rights? Not by a longshot, but when faced with the choice of continuous arbitrary predatory violence or the ICS, the ICS has been better for Somalia. Obviously this development is very bad for us, and worse for Ethiopia next door.

Islam has drawn converts from all walks of life, most notably African-Americans. Former NAACP President Benjamin Chavis, who joined the Nation of Islam recently, personifies the trend.

"In societies where you have minorities that are discriminated against, I think they may find an appeal in Islam," said Waleed Kazziha of American University in Cairo.

Above is from the CNN link.

I really don't think you will see too many white male American converts to Islam- after all, we have it the very best in our society- not much to gain by doing it is there?

But as the nation "browns" I think you will see more christian-muslim converts, by a long shot, than the other direction.

I am always amazed at the spread of Islam in Hispanic culture here, in traditionaly deep rooted Catholisism, but I am not sure if it is an outgrowth of the heavily over represented minorities in prison, where Islam seems to have found a very willing <ahem> captive audience.

In jail, you are seeing far less conversions to christianity and more and more to Islam (jailhouse conversions to be sure ) - but also, just good ol' fashioned conversions for personal reasons:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?p...p;notFound=true

"I think what many [Hispanics] are finding in Islam is a community that they find more nurturing," said Nicole Ballivian, a Los Angeles documentary filmmaker who is completing a movie about Latino Muslims called "Luces Sobre Islam" ("Islam in Focus").

She has traveled throughout South America and the Caribbean and visited many Hispanic Muslim communities here. She said that many of the converts she has talked with say the Catholic Church is large and impersonal.

(you have to register for the NY times article)

http://www.nytimes.com/glogin?URI=http://w...lim-Survey.html

CONVERSIONS: Among the regulars, 29 percent were converts to Islam. Among 19,700 annual converts, an estimated 14,000 were black and 13,000 were men.

--LEADERSHIP: ``Mosques are not staffed well,'' the report says. There were no paid full-time employees at 55 percent of mosques, and 45 percent had no paid staff even on a part-time basis. The typical imam or other mosque leader is a part-time volunteer who makes a living elsewhere.

--THEOLOGY: 21 percent said their mosques maintain a literal interpretation of the faith drawn directly from the Quran and Sunnah (practices of the Prophet Muhammad); 71 percent said they take into account the purposes of revelations in light of ``modern circumstances.'' The rest followed other Muslim traditions or did not respond.

I think the 29% are converts to Islam in America is very, very telling.

My personal feeling is that Islam is simply more populist in feel for the down and out or struggling person.

I can relate my own experiance with needing help, and not qualifying for goverment assistance- only two groups would give me the time of day, as a single father, I am a pariah to the American system of helping- only if I am a single Mom do I really count in my own society.

So, in my search to find some help and daycare, because of my personal situation- I went to the Mormons first- where I had been baptised. No help at all- "sorry, but you are not really the kind of situation we help with" (without going into it too far), Catholics helped with some food (which was nice, don't get me wrong, and needed, and appreciated)

But the most determined to help me out were the Buhdists and the Muslims, and never even once based thier help on my church attendence, unlike the protestant based services. Since I work on Sundays, I was basically turned down flat for any temp help (I needed about 2 months of breating room after the divorce to catch up with the hole in my finances my ex had left me with, in order to save the house from foreclosure).

The buhdists and Muslims called every day to see if I needed someone to watch my kids at night while I went off to work- no strings attached. helpign because thier religion told them to.

So, I see the real jump in Islam because of "good works" and money spent on the poor more than anything else, besides outright immigration as stated in some areas.

I can't really address your jail conversions theory. I'm not very familiar with the prison system. It seems to me that conversions would and could go either way. The Hispanic community of which I am familiar is very Catholic. Intermarriages obviously would likely go Muslim if a Catholic woman married into the Muslim faith, for instance. I have a few Italian relatives for whom this is the case as well. They weren't exactly devout Catholics to begin with, but more or less "cradle Catholics" who married Muslims. And, again, I think it goes both ways.

What are the percentage conversions into Christianity, I wonder? I'm betting it's a large number...keep in mind Muslims make up only about 2 percent of the population in the US. So, 30 percent of that number is a REALLY small number by comparison to the, what, 80 or so percent Christian population?

Your anecdotal experience I also can't really address. I haven't encountered any Churches which require attendance or membership. The Church that I attend offers babysitting services to me though I am not a member. Personally, I wouldn't feel comfortable leaving my children with any organization I was unfamiliar with. My brother in law is a businessman, but he has done a lot of missionary work as a Catholic. He has been to Cuba 13 times and Africa 10 times at considerable monetary and personal expense.

Edited to add: Regarding Moif's post, I think the feminist theory has some merit, but it is incomplete. Sexist, "macho" societies prevail throughout much of South America, Africa, and Asia without Islamic influence. This is true in southern Italy as well. I actually had a (northern) Italian cousin who was stabbed to death in front of her children for trying to leave her "Catholic" (southern) Italian husband. I have other relatives who are happily married to Muslim men who dote on them by comparison. All anecdotal, I know.

Yes.

It boils down to the simple observation that people who are not prepared to defend themselves (in this case Europeans), who bicker amongst themselves and who cast aside military strength in favour of subjective morality and 'anti American tendencies' will simply have their freedoms and rights (and countries) taken from them by those people who, out number them, do not care about female emancipation and who are willing to do what it takes to promote their own cultural agenda.

Europe has a long tradition of appeasement and allowing tyranny to flourish. Our intellectual elite's have always prostrated themselves willingly at the feet of oppressive regimes and ideology. We saw it with communism, facism and national socialism and now we are seeing it again with Islamism.

Its not an issue of is morality subjective or not, the reality of such is that it is, morality is not universal across human culture, for morality to be absolute takes an individual to accept that such is that way, or really to force it to be that way. Take the current situation between elements of the Islamic society at large vs. western culture, if we all had the same morality, or worldview, or perception of reality would a fight grow as large as to be called warfare? I highly doubt such.

Understanding humans empirically for whatever level you can take that to would be the closest you ever could come to a real absolute morality if you will, such as most people would not like to be murdered I imagine, but you can say the same of many living things, so when it comes to morality this is why I typically want to disassociate such from government affairs and public institutions, simply because such is truly relative and I don’t want to live under someone’s views as much as I would not like to make them live under mine, I have a hard time accepting anything that has not been derived from the monotonous scrutiny applied by the scientific method and related community of people, even then I can still be a bit iffy on it, but i do accept that the earth is not flat nor the center of the universe and dinosaurs did indeed walk the earth.

As for people being willing to defend themselves, last time i checked the world is rather engaged one way or another with radical Islam, or we would not have arrests of terrorists, suspected terrorists, or armed forces deployed in any fashion in the mideast. Really though what voice in humanity giving what it typically is, I will reserve the use of a word that starts with I, what voice should be giving in to as some absolute guiding light when dealing with the situation? Should we really sacrifice democracy like that? Is America really about to die at the hands of a group of people living in caves? Or Europe for that matter.

The issue of radical Islam in my opinion will not be solved with tanks and bombs, unless you favor some really drastic use of such, should force not be used, I would of course say no, but broader means really need to be applied. If Islamic culture can be integrated successfully into local cultures that such migrates into, that would be a giant leap, but as long as moral absolutists exist(only a sith believes in absolutes ) in the Muslim world spewing such garbage that is capable of motivating minds into such actions, then really the use of force will only multiply how much damage needs to occur, Iran wants us to attack, I mean they have stated this.

As for Iraq, I mean here is a simple ploy I doubt anyone’s really thought off. take some terrorists, actually terrorists, not insurgents. Sacrifice some of them, by there own people imbedded into the insurgency to make the insurgents feel more then ever that really what they are fighting for is there views of Iraq, such sacrifice could make the insurgency and its people galvanized that they are fighting for not terrorists views, or American views, but that of freedom fighters for Iraq... Just an idea.

So to me its how much war do you want or accept, after all its not like the Arab populous in general is arming against everyone else, but just like any nation if you could tell the future or who was actually going to commit acts or be tied to such you would never have any crime. To simply or arbitrarily attack Arab nations based of fact less fear or other motivations will only make the problem worse, to objectively engage such a foe and defuse there ability to motivate people to attack would work better then any bombs save nukes or carpet bombings. I look at the issue of Israel and Palestine, and I see how horrid that conflict is and the fact it never ends... I really could care less for that to become a norm in the world at large for everyone. Arab folks, or Muslims at large can come to live in peace in other cultures, it happens all the time, so its not impossible, and one glance at the Muslim world shows me that change can occur, this is why i felt sorry for Lebanon, as it was a progressive Muslim nation taking everything into account, maybe another reason Hezbollah acted up under some guidance of moral absolutists.

Islam is more than what we perceive as a religion. It is also a government punishable by death if you are a non-believer. Imagine if every person in the US had to convert to - or at least give the impression they are christian, along with each of our children. So not only is it a matter of demographics as Amlord has shown but also in some areas, a matter of life and death - for you and your children. It also provides an establishment were government influence is very weak in many remote area's and sometimes not so remote area's.

Religion give's leaders control - and people readily submit to it for organization and meaning to their lives.

(off-topic I know but this was mentioned earlier) Ironically one of the few religions that preaches self-empowerment and not submission - particulary for females - is Wicca, a religion that Christians have long persecuted. As mentioned by Armlord is also the fastest growing religion in the US - while Christianity is the fastest growing minority (as long as trends continue).

Why? Because it's predatory at gaining "converts".

In many places, you convert or you die. It's a very totalitarian by nature. It attracts a certain mentality of people looking for power in very impoverished areas. Contrary to the Christian "turn the other cheek" and the "meek shall inherit the earth", we get "kill the infidel". Such a militant aggressive doctrine has an appeal to disaffected young males full of testosterone but living in societies that are severely repressed, sexually and otherwise.

The same sort of people who join the Islamists would make good Nazis or Imperial Japanese. Our country, it turns out, has experience fighting wars against them and it took firebombing their cities with Napalm and nuclear weapons to get them to submit.

The positive side of that story is that the masses of people in those societies, when given the chance, embraced liberty and democracy when it was made possible for them. They also became strong allies of the United States in spite of the war's history which involved killing hundreds of thousands of their people.

Personally, I don't consider Islam a "religion" in spite of the fact that it's allegedly practiced by a billion people. I think that in its current form, it's essentially a conspiracy, a crime family, and something that should be prosecuted under RICO and national security statutes.

As an atheist, I think that all religions are fantasy.... but that Islam is particularly venomous and dangerous in its current incarnation. Any co-called "religion" that requires coercion to join under threat of death, that accepts and allows the repression of women and the killing of daughters who "dishonor" families, and who encourages "killing the infidel" should not be protected under our first amendment.

We should work to prohibit it where necessary and undermine it whenever we can.

Don't think this thread is too old to add a current issue...I've already said most of my thoughts above, but this supports them.

If you are correct that the draw to Islam is "good works", than the christian Amish should be overflowing with converts, shouldn't they?

Let's examine this. You base this statement on what? Would it be the high credibility that news networks have gained over the past 6 years? If it hadn't been for Desert Storm and the CNN crew that stayed in the Baghdad hotel reporting news, CNN wouldn't even be known. Do you base their believeability over any other organization due to Wolf Blitzer and the Situtation Room? What makes you think that a "bible dot com" organization cannot do a scholarly work? CNN is a news sales organization, and the more sensational the more they sell. And what expertise on religion do they have? I don't know them for their well-known analyses on relgion, but I do know them for their left slanting presentation of news stories. CBS and ABC are no different than CNN, and yet they have failed the public trust. Frankly I don't think it's funny that you make such off-handed remarks.

I believe what CR meant TFI is that bible dot com would tend to be biased on the subject of religion and I agree. Not because they cannot do scholarly work but because if they did it would most likely be biased to favor christianity.

Exactly- I was afraid folks would start using competing religious sites to make points.

As goes for the converts here in EU, I think personal insecurity and lacking willingness to take responsebility for your own life, plus the fact that it is a chaotic world in inhabit today is the draw. Here´s a religion which say´s: "shut up and don´t ask questions, and otherwise do as you are told by your local imam"! Glory, now I don´t have to think for myself, and make a lot of difficult decisions, and if only I follow these basic instructions, I wil have control over my life (and the thereafter).
Being a christian today in Denmark, you can pratice it any way you like. Even if you go to church every sunday, the priest won´t tell you how to live your life, moreover try to give you an interpretation of the bible, and then let you think for yourselve.
This grand freedom we have today, is fearstriking to a lot of youths today. Will you be a scientist or a latrin-cleaner? Will you be happy. It solely lies on your own shoulders, and nobody elses. Nothing is given beforehand any longer, we see young parents, who haven´t the faintes clue as how to bring up kids, we see young girls becoming anorexians or "cutters", and a lot of suicides.
I see western culture as being in a transition fase, still recovering from the hippie revolution in the 60-70ties, which had a huge impact on the personal freedom of the individual, and total change of family structures. And in such a transition fase, one is vulnerable.

I will agree to what some others have said: many people in the west, Europe especially, are afraid to defend their values in fear of being branded "intolerant". Religous advocates, wether they be muslim, christian or something else, don't fear that. They believe they know the divine truth and they are not shy about standing up for what they believe in, no matter how big a fantasy it is. Some people call that passion, and impressionable youths are attracted to passionate people. I think this is a horrible development.

The sad thing is that this development could easily be countered, if just people weren't so afraid of saying that freedom from religion, freedom of religion, free speech, women rights, sexual freedom and so on are unquestionable and good values, on which there can be no compromise. There is nothing weak about standing up for what you believe in, even if it offends 1 billion muslims or 1 billion catholics. Somebody needs to do that, but sadly 99% of politicans don't. Of course its hard to blame them, just look at Jack Straw getting trashed for saying he doesn't like speaking to women wearing veils that cover their entire face. That people are criticizing him for a rational and logical opinion like that characterizes everything thats wrong with whats happening in Britain especially, but also in the rest of Europe. Long since is the day, that secularism won a foothold in Europe, fighting against christianity, and rightfully so. Now people have to learn, that we need to take that fight again against yet another religion, and it probably won't be the last.

So how to stop the growth of religion? Simple. Use the schools to teach children what is right and to think for themselves. I personally believe it should be illegal to teach religion to a child before its old enough to think somewhat like a rationel adult (like 15 or 16). Some see that as extreme, and of course there will always be a parental influence which can't be outlawed. The problem with many schools today is not that they teach religion to children, because most muslim kids go to secular European schools, the problem is that these schools in the interest of political correctness and what not, are afraid of challenging the belifs these children get from home. In my opinion a part of a schools job should be to challenge kids and their beliefs, no matter if its goes against the wishes of the parents. There is a strong case against religion of all kinds, and we shouldn't be afraid to present it.

A point here- you realize, you just said, in very nice terms- that religion is the opiate of the masses?

Do you agree with that characterization?

Obviously there are both ecclesiatic and dogmatic issues at play here but are there non-religious reasons that Islam is expanding so quickly? If so, what are they?"
After seeing the posts claiming that Islam was spread by the sword, I felt it was necessary to add my 2 cents to this issue. I'm not a muslim but I have gone to mosques before and can explain how the muslims would explain this.

First, as the other posters pointed out, many muslim countries have high birthrates. As far as the use of the sword is concerned, most muslims are peaceful people and will show any non-muslim some verses in the Quran claiming that Jihad can only be waged in selfdefense. And if you live in a muslim country, the government is not going to wake you up at 4 AM for your daily prayers. However, getting a 6 pack of beer might be a little difficult in a muslim country. I do think that there is some social pressure to convert if you were to live in a muslim country. For many muslims, the mosque is the center of their life. Over there, they study their school books, eat their meals, watch movies, etc.

For muslims and people who convert to Islam, they will tell you that there are scientific miracles in the Quran, and that it has no contradictions. I agree that the Quran is consistent. But the prophets all say the same thing, "Believe in Allah or go to the hellfire."

[/quote]


A point here- you realize, you just said, in very nice terms- that religion is the opiate of the masses?

Do you agree with that characterization?
[/quote]

Yes I agree as far as islam is concerned. But I think the way christianity is practiced in lutheran churches today, it´s more of a philisophy which you can interpret any way you like, than a religion in the old perception, thus giving max freedom to the individual, and you still have to think for yourselve, as to how to live your life.
And I believe that the real "thruth" in this life can only come from the individual, never from old books or your local preacher.

You have never seen an American church then- much more like the Islamic stuff than your nice calm lutheran stuff LOL

I have actually, though not in the US, but it was an American church nontheless, ( and I think a lot of these churches have a lot in commen with islam, preaching; don´t think for yourself, "man is too inferior a being to think for himself, just believe in the word" ), clapping hands and singing oneline songs.
I didn´t like it.

It goes so much deeper than that- you have no idea. The constant mantra is "no will but god's will" etc.

And shouldn´t we look in our own backyard first for answers? This will make it clearer for us westerners to understand, why islam as a totalitarian religion is gaining so many followers? We need to identify with these people, not alienate ourselves from them, if we want to understand them, and maybe stop them from rushing themselves into some kind of suicide path, a total brainwash.

Obviously there are both ecclesiatic and dogmatic issues at play here but are there non-religious reasons that Islam is expanding so quickly? If so, what are they?"

I think the appeal of Islam goes far beyond it's religious and cultural moorings. One of the appeals is inclusion into what is viewed as a worldwide movement destined to overturn the status quo. If you look at it on television then all you see is the violence associated with it. What you might miss is that being a Muslim, particularly in the Pan Arab culture, is a consuming way of life. Chuck Colson remarked once that conversion to Christianity did not nessacarily take when someone left prison in America. When they left their institutionalized way of life they had a strong tendancy to go back to their old lifestyle. He said that Islamics that convert tend to stay out, I think part of the reason is the consuming nature of Islam, you don't casually convert to Islam, it becomes the center of your world.

I can see how identifying with something like a cause or a political ideology can reach people from cultures all over the world. It offers them something to do with their lives that inspires their devotion and creates a support group. It also gives them an enemy and the sense that they don't have to stand alone in the fight against the dark spector of conspiritoral Zionists and empirialists. Identification with a cause has a very strong appeal, particularly when that cause defends what you hold sacred.

Perhaps the allure of exclusivly secularistist nationalism is losing it's appeal, it could be that Islam is fullfilling a need on a spiritual level that we in the west are only dimly aware of.