Okay- I just checked on the source BD had used- it is legit- a peer reviewed scientific journal- with full aims and scopes that target family medicine- not exactly a "hidden agenda" media hit -piece-

but this confirms what I have known and seen for a long time- men are just as likely as women to be victims of domestic violence, and that many times the wrong person is arrested when cops arrive in the home.

You would think women would be concerned about this-because, at some point, there is going to be a much deserved backlash against domestic violence non-profits that won't adress DV against men.

One battered guy said it like this " the number of women REPORTING abuse by men is (some number, insert your own here) - number of 6'1" large male REPORTING his wife doing horrible things to him- 0"

to quote BDs article "She said: "In excess of EUR15m-a-year is provided by the Government for services for female victims - while less than 1 per cent of this amount is provided for male victims. "

Legit how, precisely? It might be entirely legitimate, or it might be erroneus. There is no way to tell without looking at the actual report, or at the very least, a whole heck of a lot more information than is being relayed here. All the link says regarding the study is this: "A STUDY of patients attending family doctors has found that 52 per cent of men and 43 per cent of women have experienced domestic violence."

What does the above indicate? It doesn't indicate that more men are abused by female spouses than women by male spouses. This is AN ASSUMPTION. It could just as easily indicate that more men were abused as children in the context of what is said above. If the question is simply, "Have you ever experience domestic violence?" and the man was an abused child, the answer would be yes. The men abused might be abused by male housemates as well...Furthermore, what level of violence are we speaking of here? If the question is, "have you ever been slapped?" a woman is probably more likely to slap a man. My mother-in-law, for instance, slapped her husband when she found some other woman's underwear in his travel bag (yes he was guilty). She is five feet tall and weighs around 100 pounds. He is over 6 feet tall and weighs over 200 pounds. A stinging cheek is not the sort of injury that one thinks of as domestic abuse...but if a man really slaps a woman it can do a lot of damage. If a woman is 98 percent more likely to sustain an injury from abuse which is serious enough to result in a hospital visit, than a man, it wouldn't be surprising that more resources go towards female victims of violence.

Is the man coming in to the doctor's office specifically because he was injured during an abusive conflict? Nothing here would indicate that. And I'll tell you, I searched Google for about 20 minutes trying to find this study or something related and couldn't find a single real survey or actual report. I did find the usual 20 or so contradictory news articles citing reports. I don't usually trust second-hand information that can be twisted or skewed. I like to see the real questions and answers, particularly with studies that make these sorts of extraordinary claims. Ignore the male portion for a moment and ask yourself...does it truly sound reasonable that nearly every other woman is or has been a victim of domestic violence? It doesn't to me, unless there is something very very wrong in Dublin.

CR, let me ask you a hypothetical (and Bikerdad, if you have any girls)....would you worry more about your daughter or son out on a date? I'm personally glad I have sons.

Edited to add: I must say, this is a strange debate to me. It's rather paradoxical (perhaps that is the intent? I'm curious...). It seems there are two contradictory debates in one. First, the claim that the media is feminizing men and making them less masculine ("metrosexuals", ect), then the claim that men are actually not inherently more violent ("a child is just as likely to be kidnapped and molested by the little old lady on the street as that large man with the tatoo over there...").

Honestly, which is it? I doubt the metrosexual will be picking many fights...but true, he might be more likely to be beaten up by a girl.

I didn't mean it literally Bucket. You were being facetious and used the phrase in reference to my comparison of the male going out to hunt and female staying and taking care of children. Cavemen was just another way of stating genetic differences, nothing to be taken literally that I want to live like cavemen.

I'm not attempting to make the case that we should live like cavemen only that no matter what type of choices men and women "should" make, thousands of years of genetics seem to influence many people's decisions. I still wake up every morning and shave.

It may not represent all women but what type of polls ever represent everyone?

1( I can not believe you couldn't find this journal mrs P- you are a far better researcher than me- all I did is go to the article BD provided, and the journal popped right up, and then you can even get the original source article from there! It is legit because it can be peer reviewed, and is SCIENCE- it can be copied if you want to get yersef a grant and give it a whirl-

I don't think the logic is much of a jump there Mrs P- we are not being "emasculated" as much as seen as being buffoons that have no business trying to make any decision regarding our family or kids- much better to leave that to the 'ALWAYS RIGHT" female of the house- similar to the 50s treatment of women- it wasn't right when women were portrayed this way- it isn't right when men are portrayed this way either

Men won't run thier butt down to the ER anyway- they won't be believed and will be humiliated by the ER staff, made fun of etc, and men know this.

Yep, believe it or not, the kid is just as likely to be harmed by the little old lady you mentioned as by the tattood biker dude- perhaps more so, since most infant deaths and abuse happen in the care of women.

Pretend I'm a five year old and provide a link, here please. I could honestly not find a link to the source (the source being the specific study published in the European Journal of General Practice). The only thing I can read so far regarding this study is the ONE LINE stated in the article, which alone (as I indicated) is very inconclusive.

In fact, one line of anything, from anywhere can be taken out of context easily. If the above statistics are to be believed as conclusively as you seem to regard them, approximately 43 percent of males (in relationships) and 52 percent of the females (in relationships) in Dublin belong in jail. Do you believe this to be the case? "Hey! It's science! It must be true!" Right? If I can read the study, I can discuss the results. Otherwise it's next to worthless.

Or can anyone else provide this link? I'd appreciate it. Perhaps it is my computer, because no scientific journal with this study "just pops up" on my screen.

Edited to add: Regarding the rest, CR...are you honestly suggesting that females commit more violent crime than males? I hope not. The ratio is something like 8 to one, and that statistic (unlike this study) can be found EASILY (basic example). It's (likely) true that women are getting progressively more violent, saddly, but it isn't even close yet.

another link:

What is "white male anger"? Is that supposed to be a derogatory term? Is "black anger" a situation when people say they are dumb, eat watermelon and have huge genitalia, and black folks respond vehemently? Is that black anger?

A definition of white anger would be nice.

And regarding domestic abuse, we seem to be agreeing that women are at least equally likely to be agressive in striking a man as a man would be striking a woman, right? That has definately been my experience, that woman in fact are more likely to attack a man than vice versa.

Now stating that a woman who "simply slaps" a man does not send him to the hospital....maybe that simple slap is what sends HER to the hospital? My sister once began slapping me because I refused to change the TV station, I grabbed her arms (being stronger than her) and she began kicking me. In a gut reaction I clocked her. Believe it or not, despite being smaller than me IT STILL HURT.

Again, we have the impression that men do not hurt, that a woman can slap a man and he must not respond. That somehow assaulting a man is acceptable because it does less damage. This is what I was addressing before. Men are easy targets because society feels they are in control and strong, where women can do what they want with out any recourse.

Take for example child molestation. Recently a very attractive woman commits child rape. But because of pressure on the boy and the assumption that she is good looking, and the boy wanted it, the boy backs out of charges against her. Even TV shows interviewed her and made HER the victim!!

But had Brad Pitt had sex with a 13 year old girl, he would be flame-broiled in the press, would go to jail for child rape and would never be "excused" because we all know THE GIRL WANTED IT.

It's all a double standard.

The media and our culture pushes this image that minorities and woman are all harmless, helpless, vicims of society. While white men beat women, abuse children, keep minorities down and have control of everything in society.

Just a quick comment here – I’m not sure if I want to re-enter this debate.

The part I find intriguing and disturbing is that when I teach in the classroom (I’m a university professor) and I raise the issues of gender and highlight how women (and minorities) experience more discrimination and abuse than (white) men, there is almost an automatic reaction of a white male (or two) who are so very quick to highlight reverse discrimination and how white men are also abused. This is a common way for white males to dominate conversations regarding issues of abuse – and in this topic about media misandry and relevant issues.

Although it is true that white men are discriminated against and abused (this is part of the reason I raised the penis size issue in earlier posts – an example of female oriented sexual objectification of males and as a way of highlighting that crusing ram does have a valid point), it happens so much more to women and people from ethnic minority groups. It would be great if white males would listen more and ask more questions to facilitate understanding, rather than complain about there own discrimination.

My other comment is related to how sensitive this topic is – there are comments associated with divorce, being sexually abused, being physically abused and so forth. Although I realize this is a debate forum, I think we should all remember that there are real people with painful experiences interacting about this topic.

Dominate? I don't see that happening. It seems to me minorities and women dominate the conversation about discrimination and stereotypes.



And your evidence is? I agree that minorities in any situation are discriminated against more than the majority. For instance, I work with mostly black women and have a black woman supervisor. I feel I get singled out where my female black counterparts are not. And I often feel that she is taking out her anger on me for things she experiences. So yes, I think it is logical that minorities have trouble fitting in with the majority.

But WOMAN ARE THE MAJORITY. I don't see how they are discriminated against or abused more than men. Where is this evidence? Are you counting all the female teachers in this world that humiliate young boys? Most of K-12 is taught by women. How about child abuse by women? Child neglect by woman? Are you counting that as well?

Again, ASSUMPTIONS that you make as well as societymakes.



Well you are a white male, right? And you're listening?

Crusing ram:

Two quick things. Regarding dominate -- I am refering to dominating the conversation by deflecting on the topic on hand (media misandry pertaining to women) and directing it toward the hardships of white men. It seems like there are a group of men trying to do this.

Regarding evidence, try to comprehend past posts before commenting. For example, see 17 regarding evidence.

Excuse me but when, if ever, did men themselves consider housework and minding children as worthy or well respected work deserving of a non-degrading portrayal? It is not women that came up with the sayings..women belong in the kitchen, barefoot and pregnant, women's work, none of which are very flattering.

Perhaps men are shown a "buffoons" when taking on these roles because in general our society has little regard for them to begin with, only a fool would be believable in such a portrayal because no intelligent, successful man would ever consider staying home to raise kids and cook dinner.

If women are truly being portrayed differently and more empowered than men where are the strong female roles in the movie theatres and on our TV sets? What movie that had a female leading role or even better yet a female director have you seen lately?

Yes I know there are some, but not many, certainly not enough to accurately reflect the fact women are not a minority.

Um, how about me then? I am a single dad raising two kids, and in perenial custody battles with my ex- and everytime we go to court- everything I have said here is proven, even with what my lawyer considers a "good judge, only SLIGHTLEY biased to women"- and she was this judges law clerk for 10 years! Ya, protest all you want- but women don't have it so bad in our culture anymore- the men in our society that are not born to privilege have to work much harder and have fewer public resources than the women in our culture- big time.

Who said it was not flattering? To say a woman should be raising children and taking care of her husband is only unflattering if you think it is. I think a traditional household is fine and I don't find the role of a woman in a traditional family as unflattering, do you?

But I agree that men may not respect it as much as what job they may pursue. But honestly, I know so many women in the work place and through college that would rather not work. They would rather be a housewife.

Maybe men do lack respect when they shouldn't. But not all men don't feel that way. Growing up a latch-key kid, believe me, I respect a family that actually gives a crap about their kids and a mother that is their for her family.




If TV roles were a true sign of the power people had in society, black people would have a lot more power than they do.

It's funny that people somehow think we are "progressing" by pushing women into the workforce. You look back at the 30s-50s in the media and women were actually much stronger figures then than they are now.

Also, look at what genres make the most money. It's generally action/adventure where women are less likely to have leading roles. And I'm not sure why women are not directors. That is an interesting question that I'm not sure is automatically reduced to lack of empowerment.

No you haven't provided any evidence... all you do is say go read a book because you don't like websites. Well that is fine but we are on the internet and if there's so much evidence as you claim there is it should be very easy to provide some information on it via a website.

If my personal experience is any type of the norm I would say you are full of it (I grew up in a black neighborhood). I would tend to agree with you about abuse (as far as male vs female), but still no evidence of "more" discrimination.

Seeing as to how the wage gap in pay, when factoring just a few factors, still not everything, the gap decreased that doesn't really support your argument does it?

Still haven't explained that one.

Red Cedar:

I agree with you that there is nothing dishonorable about a stay-home mom – in fact, I think it is noble and honorable. I think that when a traditional husband-wife couple has children either the mother or father should stay home. Generally thinking, this underscores a committed parent and provides the greatest foundation for an emotional and physically healthy child. However the important part is that this has to be a CHOICE. I might be wrong, I do not think Bucket is downgrading the role of a stay home mom (or father), what she communicating is when women/mothers are placed into this role without choice.

Vampiel:

I am simply asking you (and others) to discipline yourself and take the time to learn from academic sources. I am not an advocate of finding evidence via websites – I have already addressed this issue once before and do not want to waste my time again. However, I believe the New England Journal of Medicine can be accessed via the web.

Your comments did not address my question I posed to you. Unless you can offer something more substantial to the debate than just your own personal, biased, undocumented and anecdotal evidence I see no reason to take your argument seriously. Do you have proof that men systematically earn less than women? Do you have proof that men are significantly not recognized or hold positions of power in our society? Do you have proof that a larger number of men live in poverty than women? Do you even have proof that the judicial system is negatively biased towards men in custody cases?



No this is obviously not just about what I think, I can't just think these sort of problems away. I don't just imagine in my head that "barefoot and pregnant" and "women's work" and "a woman's place is in the kitchen" etc. are derogatory phrases. I think the fact you choose to ignore what intent and thoughts are behind such terms shows that you probably have no desire to even consider the other side of the argument, I think what rbb said about dominating the debate is very accurate in this regard.

Also if so many men felt that housework and child rearing is such flattering, successful and appealing work why do so few do any? Studies have shown that even when women work they still take on a majority of the household duties. My point was that men feel this work is fine in it's traditional form, which is when women do it, but when men do it they feel it is degrading, insulting and foolish. That is why TV programs and the like show "buffoons" taking on "women's work" because that is the general male portrayal of such work. Most here are trying to portray this as a slight to men but I don't think it is as I feel it is more likely a reflection on women.

rbb

I am not degrading motherhood or choosing to stay home with your children, I am claiming that much of society does. Even when they claim they don't and they feel it is important and they respect it, I do not see much advocation for it. There are no government incentives or encouragements for either parent to stay home, there are no social security benefits, there is no required compensation for maternity leave, many parents face hostile work environments, in fact some parents face hostile public environemnts too, and society seems to place so much value on other things. I just feel that if women and motherhood was so respected and cherished in our society we would see more evidence of it in how we govern and manage ourselves.

I also wanted to add to any and all reading this still believing they have some sort of gender war against men to bring our attentions to. That in light of two extremely high profiled cases where females were singled out, attacked and murdered, or what we would classify as hate crimes based on gender. I find the claims that some sort of war is being waged on men by women not only ridiculous but now it comes off as insensitive to far more pressing and concerning matters. I honestly do not know how much more of a illustrative example you would need to understand that women are not afforded the same equal standing and rights in our society and do in fact require special protections and considerations.

Yes, I have to admit when I saw the headline Shooter kills Amish girls at Schoolhouse "It must have been a woman!" wasn't the first thing that came to my mind.

I guess CR isn't going to provide that "obvious" link. Done holding breath. Double dog dare? Nevermind....

From the Media misandry article:

As I said before, it isn't surprising that newsreports and commentary on men will be unfavorable. How many times have you seen a "this man rescued a puppy!" newspiece? Perhaps occasionally, but good news doesn't sell as well. You'll certainly never see a "this man (or woman for that matter) works all day, takes good care of the children, and comes home at night. The end. It isn't interesting. Watching the news (or talk shows) is pretty much always a depressing proposition. That's why I very seldom (basically never) watch television.

People do enjoy the occasional happy movie or television piece, but this article combines those with tabloids, ridiculous talk shows, and news commentary to form its conclusions. Newspaper additions, to include tabloids, outnumber such "lifestyle programming" shows 6 to one. There are additionally more news 'bulletins' than shows. Are the results really surprising in such a context? Have you ever heard a "happy" news bulletin? As I said before, if the crime is particularly grusome the paper will report it regardless of the sex of the perpetrator (mothers drowning children, beating them in the street with a bat, ect). It just so happens that (according to statistics from the crime bureau I cited before as well as simple powers of human observation) overall male violent crime outnumbers female violent crime 8 to one. Overall male homicide offenders outnumber female homicide offenders 10 to one. Hence, male violent crime will be reported more.

The article further states that females are nearly universally placed in positive roles as the nurturing parent. That is absolute and complete (fill in the blank here). There is a recent movie video released entitled 'The Heart is Deceitful Above All Things'. I don't recommend it for any mothers, as it is an absolute horror beyond horror films, but those interested who still believe there are no portrayals of abusive mothers should watch it. Um....Psycho? My Mom is a Serial Killer? Mommy Dearest? I just watched the first episode of Deadzone and the main villain was raised by a psychotic mother who participated in the crimes.

Thought I'd add...A few days ago my husband was laughing and told me that he had just seen a funny Vontage commercial. A woman on the beach thought the obvious shark fins in the water were those of dolphins, and ran skipping toward the water to swim in it, singing something like "Hurray! Dolphins!". But before she could swim out to meet the nice creatures, a large missile, apparently from a passing Vonage van, beans her in the head. According to CR, this commercial (or any humor like it) does not exist.


**********
Edited to add: While I'm talking to myself...

I think it also bares mentioning that the gender which enjoys that style of slapstick, kick him in the crotch humor most is MEN. Who in the audience here plans on seeing Jackass II? Ladies? I didn't think so. How many women like the three stooges? Anyone?

I once saw a tee shirt on the wall at Spencers with two stick figures. One was a woman kicking the man in the "junk" with a suitable caption at the bottom. My husband and a male friend we were shopping with both thought that was the funniest thing. The friend wanted to buy it, frame it and place it in his office.

I share an e mail account with my husband. Guess who gets all of the slipstick humor SPAM pertaining to things like gonad abuse? It sure as hell isn't my female friends sending that stuff. A few months ago his pals sent a video of some poor unfortunate teen who was stupid enough to try to light a bottle rocket from his rectum. Um, yeah...I wasn't the one laughing and forwarding that to all of our friends.

Wow! Am I that far out of the loop?

What is Jackass II or for that matter, was there a Jackass I?

I just purchased a newly released CD "Ray Charles Sings/Count Basie Sings"

Excuse me while I migrate back to the time-warp.

Teenage boys may dig Jackass and such- but not the circle I hang out it- but teenage boys are still being raised by women it seems

Bucket- you can't get stats on abused men- because they can't report thier crime, they can't go to a shelter, they don't get to succesfully press charges- there is no help for any kind of domestic abuse for men- it is similar to sexual abuse of men- there is not way to track it, because our society doesn't recognize it.

It is not all that different than the issues facing women in the 50s - what domestic abuse?

There is no shelter for men in my state- they only accept women- no matter what the situation, men have 0 relief- and women have at least 20 orgs right here in my little city. STAR has only recently been compiling sexual abuse of males-which, in my field, I see all the time, but is not reported as well.

It is very conveniant to say "there is no evidence" - when 0 poeple are out looking for it, ignore the reporting, ignore any evidence etc.

There use to be a large social stigmata for a woman to admit or show signs of domestic abuse or rape- it is pretty much gone in American culture- but it is exactly the same for men now.

I remember the show "Christopher Titus"- he is the first one to make jokes about this- he came from an incredibly abusive and dysfunctional household, where the mom was the main abuser in the house- and he let it known in a joke "there are thousands of reported abuses of women in this country- but 0 REPORTED abuses of males"-

I would love to have some studies done- after all, I am going back to court this week.

To be fair to Vonage, their other ad shows a model-gorgeous woman in a European sports car begging a not-very-attractive, chubby geek not to break up with her. Very strange campaign.

And I guess that sums it up for me. For every "stupid female" portrayal there is a "stupid male" portrayal.


Trust me; you're better off not knowing. My 20-year old nephew loves it.

Your argument here has been entirely too gratuitous. We have asked you to either support your claims or cease your insistence of their truth. There are studies and stats on all forms of domestic abuse, male and female, and I would imagine that women are just as likely to not report violence when in occurs with an intimate as males are.
If you read them you will see that such violence is gendered and this is based not only on it's occurence but also the type of violence too. This means that not only do men based by the numbers of such data commit more domestic abuse but that the form of violence is also determined by gender.

Gender Differences in IPA Perpetration: Going Beyond Frequencies

In addition to addressing whether the frequency of IPA is gendered, it is necessary to ask whether the nature of IPA is gendered. Some argue that men and women are likely to use different types of violence. Milardo (1998) found that while women are more likely to perpetrate more varied forms of violence, men are more likely to perpetrate more serious forms of violence. Melton and Belknap (2003), in their comparison of male and female perpetrators of IPA in police reports, also found that men were more likely to perpetrate more serious forms of IPA.

Many scholars and victim advocates report that women have different motivations for using force against their current or former intimate partners. More specifically, women are far more likely than men to employ force with their intimate partners in the context of self-defense (Barnett, Lee, & Thelan, 1997; Cascardi & Vivian, 1995; Dasgupta , 2001; DeKeseredy & Schwartz, 1998; Hamberger, Lohr, Bonge, & Tolin, 1997; Hamberger & Potente, 1994; Molidor & Tolman, 1998; Saunders, 1986; Schwartz, 1987). Indeed, nderson and Umberson's (2001) study of male IPA offenders concluded that these men were effective in twisting their less serious (female) partners' behaviors into the major violence, while they excused their own abusive behaviors as rational, capable, and nonviolent. While women are more likely than men to use force to resist violence initiated by their intimate partners, men are more likely than women to use force in order to control and exercise power over their partners (Barnett et al., 1997; Hamberger et al., 1997; Hamberger & Guse, 2002; Hamberger & Potente, 1994). Indeed, Worcester (2002) emphasizes that any analysis of women and girls' use of force in intimate relationships must be through a "framework that keeps power and control central to the definitions of domestic violence"(p. 1390). This important distinction between women's primary motivation as self-defense and men's primary motivation as control has major gender implications for practitioners responding to those charged with IPA--many charged women may actually be victims of IPA acting in self-defense, rather than the offenders.
link

You can complain, and belittle and begrudge women's shelters all you like but the fact remains that the form of violence women suffer from at the hands of men is far more serious and life threatening than the violence men face at the hands of women. As the old saying goes, deadmen (or women) don't tell lies...
Homicide trends in the U.S. Trends by gender
Perhaps you should explain to us why you feel that even though women in our society show a far greater need for such services that you still wish to focus on the needs of men? Are there domestic abuse clinics in your town where men can get help and assistance on how to better control their anger and emotions towards the women in their lives?

Yet any person who supports the idea that the patriarchal system exists in our society knows that men suffer from this "system" as do women. It is just that it is more likely for men to also suffer at the "hands" (violence, expectations, social conditioning, gender roles) of other men, not women.

Bucket:

Most of your thoughts I completely agree with. As I stated many times, I fundamentally believe that women are abused MUCH more than men and the abuse is more serious (e.g. death). In no way am I trivializing these issues.

However, I do think cruising ram’s comments regarding it is more difficult for men to report abuse does bear some accuracy. However, I think it stems more from the social construction of how men create and reinforce masculinity than women. Let me give you one example from my past – for clarity (I am not extrapolating or generalizing from a single event – I’m using it to bring clarity).

When I was in high school there was a young woman upset with men due to serious male abuse (men gang-banging her – which I had nothing to do with in any way). She was upset with men in general (and I understand why) and took part of her anger out on me (and other men). One day while standing in front of my locker she walked up behind me and with a closed fist punched me in the sensitive area. She hit it dead on -- it knocked my down and I didn’t even see it coming. However, in no way was I going to tell others (no one was around to see it). There were societal norms that prevented this – a boy code of not showing weakness and a gender code that boys can’t physically strike back against women. Perhaps this is why I find the gettng kicked or punched in the male sensative area to be bothersome in movies -- it is not a funny action, it is embarrasing for men for it hits at the core of traditional masculinity in many ways, and is painful.

Again, I agree with your overall comments and I do think too many males laugh off female concerns and then use the “look at us poor white males” line to control conversations – even though men and white men get so many more privileges than women. However, cruising ram does raise a single valid point within a context of white male babbling. There is a societal norm that men are weak when reporting abuse and I do think it prevent abuse being reported. . I do think this is a valid point.

rbb I did address the point your making when I said this...
Yet any person who supports the idea that the patriarchal system exists in our society knows that men suffer from this "system" as do women. It is just that it is more likely for men to also suffer at the "hands" (violence, expectations, social conditioning, gender roles) of other men, not women.

I do understand the harm that is done to men too, I just acknowledge, and have done so throughout this debate, that it is not at the hands, power or social structuring of a female dominant society, but rather a male dominant one or what we call patriarchal.


CR claimed there was no data to share to support his claims as in none, which is obviously not true. Yes men face abuse, yes it goes unreported (as it does for women too!) but when we look to the most concerning forms of violence, which are the most extreme..death. I am not seeing any secret hidden "gender war" and I personally find such claims and calls for concern when it is without question females that die at alarming numbers at the hands of men, not only insensitive but likely an indication of some form of prejudice.

There is no RELIABLE data because the only way they are collecting data is questionares, or from parties that have a vested interest in lying- as you know from science- questionaires are the least scientifically reliable tool- unless it is buttressed in other manners- just like the notion that correlation is not causation- the same applies to those studies.

If you were to take questionairs of all the female inmates I have seen for the last 20 years - you would get the same results- they were just retaliating against male agression etc- but, after researching the details of the case and chasing down the facts- it nearly always came out that the abusive one was the female- and, this is a very slanted slice of society- as the folks on my unit are charged with very, very horrific crimes- so I get the worst or the worst- but our own internal, scientifically gathered stats on my unit has shown, long after the initial interview happens, when we finally shake down the truth in these cases, or something near to it- thier allegations are usually just allegations- with little or no basis in fact.

Study after study will show that women are the victims- when reality is often not true- because the data gathering method is suspect from jump.

I mean, really, Bucket- of all those studies you just provided- how do you tell who is telling the truth?

It is not that I begrudge women's shelters or help from violence- in fact I support it- but what is bad is this- there is absolutely 0 help for men in the same situation, and when they do seek help, they are ridiculed and disbelieved- I am fine with 20 women's shelters in a city- so what is so wrong with one resource for men?

I just looked through our phone book- yep, just as I thought- not a single public resource for men, not one, for any reason. Over 100 listings for resources for women.

Ya, that is kinda unbalanced I would say.

However could it be suspect? "It's science", right? At least that's the response you gave me when I questioned a single line of poll "data" that might have been easily taken out of context from a news article. Is it only suspect when it doesn't confirm your opinion?



The underlined thrust of the article, and subject for this topic is: There is a new “gender war” and the main target of discrimination is no longer women, according to research - it is men. So in that context, adhering to this topic, is this a recent phenomenon? Have pre-existant shelters for men been closing throughout the years?

I think it could be argued on that front that men are more represented than ever before. Back then, there were no male shelters, now there are a few. Back then, the mother obtained sole custody in a divorce case automatically almost universally. Not the way things are now.

I would agree Mrs P- that it is not as bad as it once was- the fact that there is a paltry few vs 0 would be an improvement- and the gender war is on "men's rights"- and I do think it will be getting more attention in the future- for sure, I am a changed person due to my exposure to the court system- I used to be very, very empathetic to the pay vs work issue in women etc- now I could give a rat's fanny, and am pretty embittered about the whole deal- even though, through great cost to myself, i am winning (in fact, I am waiting on a ruling on my motion for permanent, full custody now) I probably wouldn't have won at all 30 years ago, no matter the evidence.

So yeah, it could be argued that there has been improvement- but my position, is not enough, and there is great injustice being done, daily, and it does harm the innocent most of all-

right now, as it stands, I can totally understand the idea of the absent father, the deadbeat dad etc- and somewhat envy them- it is a much easier path, beleive me. If I thought my children would do better with my ex-wife, I would have possibly taken that path- it would have been far easier for me to sell my house, see my children twice a year if ever, pay the child support, and get on with my life- but, instead, I had to work 100 hour weeks to save the house, fight like crazy in court, hire the best lawyer money can buy, borrow from friends and family, and never once stop fighting. And still there is no guaruntee that I will win, in fact, the odds are still against me.

To me, it seems the system creates an atmosphere for men that we have nothing to lose anyway by being violent or walking away forever- and this is, of course, reinforced daily on just about any form of media that you see, and by really not doing any real research into women's culpability in issues regarding family and such.

but of course- I should just "get over it"

Yes there is I already pointed it out, it is murder rates by gender, you care to acknowledge this or not? or perhaps you could explain to me how murder rates are unreliable or based on questionnaires and biased parties void of you know "science". Is there some hidden en masse gendercide of men occurring in the US?

You're the one who wears the "libertarian" badge how vested or involved is society supposed to be in regards to violence and abuse in a home? Are you as an libertarian claiming we need to concern ourselves and vest our public resources in helping men deal with violence at an equal level as we do women when most of the violence men suffer is non-lethal and not serious? Or should we as we do now focus on the areas of violence that are occurring domestically that require our most urgent attentions? In your state how many women died from domestic violence compared to men in the past year?

Alaska ranks first in the nation in the rate of women killed by men, according to a report released Wednesday by the Violence Policy Center, a national nonprofit educational foundation that conducts research on violence in America.

The study, based on 2004 figures compiled from records of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, reports 62 percent of women victims were either wives or intimate acquaintances of their killers.

“Women who are victims of murder are often killed by someone they know. It is a problem of domestic violence,” said Kristen Rand, legislative director of the Violence Policy Center, located in Washington, D.C.

The study shows Alaska had nine women homicides in 2004, giving it a rate of 2.83 homicides per 100,000 people.

“These numbers should serve as a wake-up call to the states with the highest rates,” Rand said.
link

For shame you sit here and complain to us about the lack of public services in your state when your state has the highest rate of female homicides by men in all of the US. Now I am completely assured that your argument is based on bias and not fact.

Yawn- believe me- oh, for shame, my horrible state, oh yes, women are horribly persecuted throughout thier life, and men are at fault always- I already know the mantra, heard it before, nothing new.

It is a great way to get funding, makes great sound bites, and fuels anti-male outrage, and ensures that men don't get a fair shake in court, or a fair hearing as well.

I know of some, or rather, many, of these cases, where the bad guy is male- no problem, I know when a bad guy is a bad guy- the difference is, when a woman commits a crime, no matter how bad, she usually blames the male- and that makes it into the statistic, and there is no follow up to debunk that.

Also- that data is horribly slanted as to location- most of our violence against women happen in the village, and is alcohol related. Super high suicide rates as well among males- guess that is a man's fault too eh?

Is there any responsibility for bad behavior to be taken by a woman in any case bucket?

Alaska rates high in darn near every crime you can imagine- in certain areas, typically the village, typically alcohol related.

Funny though- I have personally seen at least 20 murder cases involving the woman as the perp, and she, of course, blames "domestic violence" right off the bat, and in each and every one of these cases, this was proven completely false- the woman was the instigator- and they were convicted- but, interestingly enough- none of these woman made it into a single study, never in any raw data we recieved at all. It was like the cases never happened. I wonder why this data was never in the raw data of crime stats in Alaska?
Maybe because there is no money or funding for women criminals, nor is there any movement in the US that really looks at women criminals as equals in evil to thier male counterparts?

The very nature of female criminals makes them hard to track- since they usually manipulate others to do thier dirty work for them.

If you think for a minute that women can't equal men evil for evil- you are seriously blinded to reality. They just usually go about it in a more manipulative and sneaky manner.

Now- that isn't to say that, overall, men don't commit violent crimes more than women- but that doesn't mean that women are far more culpable in many crimes of violence than your data shows either.

I have seen to much raw data left out of studies, right here in my own hospital, to buy 99% of what comes out of those statisitics- believe what you want, but I have seen for my own eyes some of these studies, and thier RAW data, prior to it's being released, and know that there is some slieght of hand going on.

Another nice little bit of raw data that seems to miss studies up here - murder commited by mothers against thier children. I have seen at least 10 cases of culpability that have never been counted in raw data as well.

Edited to add this:- there are lot's and lots of bad poeple in this world- but the US really only focuses on bad men, and in fact, pretends for the most part that they don't exist- and it is played out in media as well.

Heck, it was even hard to get inside data from our own system that I have access to on women- but there are reems of it on males- even though our own female prisons are overcrowded, and have some incredibly violent and evil female offenders- it is darn hard to even get raw data on crimes, sentences and violence in the prison itself- all data quite easily obtained in our male populations.

Again, you are admitting that they are indeed just derogatory or negative phrases TO YOU. You have yet to explain why these are negative comments. When a woman says "taking out the garbage", "fixing the car", "mowing the lawn" are men's work....should I feel insulted?

You have done nothing to show that this phrases are negative or why they should be considered so. And then you say I am dominating the debate??

Well let me let you, have the floor. What is wrong with being a mother and housewife? The floor is yours. You have told me nothing to this point.



I didn't say men find it appealing, successful or flattering. Do you find being a janitor is any of those either? But would you not respect someone who is a janitor for at least not being a bum? Some men do respect women for being mothers and housewives, and many do, many should. Just like women should respect the man that goes and does some crap job in the corporate world to feed his family.

The way you, and many feminists slant this argument, gives one the impression that working in the corporate world is somehow more rewarding, that being a full-time parent and doing housework is not. That the man is out doing "the cool thing" while the woman is "stuck at home" with housework and children.

Give me a break. If some woman wants to go work my job so I can be at home and clean up, let me at it. Because my job sucks. It sucks bad. All my jobs have sucked for the most part. I'd love for someone to take care of me so I can stay at home and play with kids, and work on the car, put up a privacy fence, re-do the kitchen, and just do general clean up stuff.

And you know what? Many women think like I do!! They hate being "liberated". They'd rather be at home. I have no idea where you think women are portrayed negatively for doing housework.

I have to ask at this point....you say that each and every one of these women was convicted, which would seem to indicate that justice was served. How do you know that none of those cases were used as data? Do you have some sort of basis for comparison? Have you "seen" males homocide cases which were used as data? Are you privy to that sort of information or just guessing?

What is this patriarchal system that is hurting everyone?

That sounds like secret code for "men's system built for the advantage of men". I don't think there's been a patriarchal system since women stopped being chattel.

Again, no has addressed not surprisingly so. Women are a large percentage of roles that influence YOUNG MEN. So how is this a patriarchal system responsible for men's behavior? I would say 95% of my teachers growing up were women. And maybe 25% in college as I was in engineering.

I kind of laugh at downplaying the influence of women in society. It really is VERY laughable. ANd it's this same nonsense that this whole thread is addressing. This notion that men beat women into submission, that men control every aspect of every person's life is so unreal, yet so prevelant.

Like I said before, women have influenced my life greatly. If you want to know why men are more violent, it's probably because men are less likely to be coddled and cared for like women are. You've never heard the term "daddy's little boy" have you?

In fact I would argue that men feel isolated and mistreated. But because we are men we must be strong, while women can be weak. I think that causes resentment and I'm sure violence is a side-effect of this.

The influence of women is large. Even if as a wife (see Nancy Reagan), women influence men.

In fact, maybe we live in a matriarchal system, where men are the ones that suffer the most at the hands of women. Allowing women to do all the easy work while men do the hard labor. Women live longer, right? Why is that? If the system is so detrimental to women, why are men dying off faster and doing all the hard work?

IMHO, women may not do outwardly damage like physical violence, but an abusive mother may not leave any physical scars. Wasn't Hitler's mother a prostitute? Yeah, let's blame Hitler's dad for his messed up head.

I haven't addressed it because I don't see how it is pertinent. Yes, women have a great influence in society. Does this mean society is becoming increasingly misandric (if that's a word)? I don't think so, nor have you proved otherwise. I am no short of amazed at the above statistic, though. Things must have changed a lot in the past 15 years. When I was in the engineering college, the student male to female ratio was about 12 to one. I had only one female professor.



Again I have to wonder how this addresses the topic. What exactly is new here? If anything, boys are "coddled" and permitted to receive affection more than ever before. Girls aren't the ones yelling "Sissy boy" at boys. Girls aren't the ones who say things like "Mama's boy" or "you throw like a girl". Women aren't the ones who coined the slang term for female genitalia as the lowest word to call a man.

I'll give a life analogy. We have a five year old neighbor who is basically a monster. He sometimes hits my eight year old son, but I do not permit my eight year old to hit him back because he is bigger and could do some real damage to the child. I tell him to come to me so I can intervene. I suppose it could be argued that this gives the five year old the advantage**. Now, if my four year old wishes to hit him back, I wouldn't care as much. He has the right to defend himself against a larger opponent, and would not do too much damage, though I'd obviously still rather he come to me. You don't hurt the weak. Hitting is wrong, and hitting those weaker than you is even more wrong. We ingrain that in our children because it makes for a more civil, not to mention safer, society. Similar to "crime doesn't pay" and "violence never solves anything". It could be argued that crime does pay, and I could raise my kids to be criminals...."if you're smart you can get rich that way, and afterall those stores don't need the money because they make so much anyway....Take that little kid's lunch money. Hit that girl..." This would make me a bad parent, and an irresponsible (speaking euphemistically) member of society.

Edited to add:

**I think it goes without saying that we try to avoid this boy. I don't wish this to turn off-topic into a discussion of general parenting. It's an analogy, and I'll assume (for now) that everyone here is smart enough to understand that.

Cruising Ram:

Your responses that all survey research and statistics is unreliable (e.g., post #7) is an absolute joke. Although all research has limitations and there can be major limitations in specific studies, to make a lump-sum claim that all of the statistics and research Bucket (and others) are using to marshal evidence is a real joke.

Well it's like you said anyone can make a website overnight and say whatever they want right? Don't you think it's rather hyprocritical to talk about how unreliable the internet is for information -- but only if you don't agree with it apparently.



So vawnet.org is reliable... earlier you were saying cnn.com isn't reliable ?

Bucket has not reffered to a SINGLE book like you insist others must get there information from. . rather if you don't like what the website says then you need to read a book because it's not reliable but if you do like what it says its "a real joke" to not accept the websites information

Edited to add :



Mrs. P I believe what Redcedar's point was not about abuse but rather male discrimination against women. If you read Bucket and rbb's posts they seem to believe that women are grossly under represented in society, hold nearly not as much power as they should and make much less money than they should because the white man and his born privileges that the US has bestowed upon us white men (btw im still waiting for my free check in the mail) and how there is such widespread discrimination against women by all of us naturally overpriveleged white discriminating men. Also that men force women to stay at home and do the dishes as well of course they can't make decisions for themselves. That is the scenerio that I find "VERY laughable".