Full Version: Virginia Senator George Allen
This story has been around for a while, so as the song says "fools rush in where angels fear to tread," I'll be the "fool" who ventures into this one. 
Virginia Senator George Allen, son of the famed football coach by the same name, is in trouble in his race for relection. Once enjoying a 16 point lead, Allen and opponent James Webb are now even at 43% each, leaving 14 percent undecided or not responding. According to The San Francisco Chronicle:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?...EDG6PKDUAP1.DTL
Youtube has captured Allen’s “macaca” remarks for all to see. Some are more upset that Allen welcomed a dark skinned person of Indian descent, who was born in Virginia and educated at the University of Virginia to the United States. Allen was born in California.
Allen’s exact words from the Youtube video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pL3Q9gUEvtA
Questions for Debate
1. Is Senator Allen a racist, racially insensitive, neither or both?
2. If Allen’s problems are a result of racism, does this indicate racism is alive and well in the United States?
3. Could and should Allen’s words and alleged past cost him his senate seat?
Virginia Senator George Allen, son of the famed football coach by the same name, is in trouble in his race for relection. Once enjoying a 16 point lead, Allen and opponent James Webb are now even at 43% each, leaving 14 percent undecided or not responding. According to The San Francisco Chronicle:
QUOTE
First, came the "macaca" incident, in which he referred to a young man of Indian descent with a word that might be some kind of exotic ethnic slur (as Allen's opponents claim) or innocent nonsense (as Allen now maintains, after a few false starts), but it sure didn't sound as if it was a compliment. Scrambling to limit the damage threw Allen, whose natural walk is a college quarterback's swagger, off his stride.
Then he had to deal with the revelation that his maternal grandparents were Jewish, which means his mother is Jewish, which means -- what, that Allen is Jewish, too? The answer depends on whether you consider Jewishness (which is matrilineal) to be a matter of ethnicity, religion, culture, history or perhaps even choice. If you accept Allen's assurance that he never had an inkling -- which suggests a pretty incurious nature, but never mind -- then his self-image must have been smitten and his self-confidence sent reeling.
<snip>
What could possibly happen next? The joke in my office was that the only thing left was for a black ancestor to surface.
<snip>
What surfaced instead was a story in the cyber-magazine Salon.com quoting several of Allen's college football teammates as saying that back in the early 1970s, they heard Allen frequently use the unforgivable racial slur that has come to be known by the too-cute euphemism "the N-word." One former teammate claimed Allen was then such a racist that he stuffed a severed deer head into the mailbox of a black family, in an echo of "The Godfather." Allen angrily called the whole story "absolutely false" and said he never recalled using the slur. His campaign produced other teammates who defended him and attacked the accusers.
Then he had to deal with the revelation that his maternal grandparents were Jewish, which means his mother is Jewish, which means -- what, that Allen is Jewish, too? The answer depends on whether you consider Jewishness (which is matrilineal) to be a matter of ethnicity, religion, culture, history or perhaps even choice. If you accept Allen's assurance that he never had an inkling -- which suggests a pretty incurious nature, but never mind -- then his self-image must have been smitten and his self-confidence sent reeling.
<snip>
What could possibly happen next? The joke in my office was that the only thing left was for a black ancestor to surface.
<snip>
What surfaced instead was a story in the cyber-magazine Salon.com quoting several of Allen's college football teammates as saying that back in the early 1970s, they heard Allen frequently use the unforgivable racial slur that has come to be known by the too-cute euphemism "the N-word." One former teammate claimed Allen was then such a racist that he stuffed a severed deer head into the mailbox of a black family, in an echo of "The Godfather." Allen angrily called the whole story "absolutely false" and said he never recalled using the slur. His campaign produced other teammates who defended him and attacked the accusers.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?...EDG6PKDUAP1.DTL
Youtube has captured Allen’s “macaca” remarks for all to see. Some are more upset that Allen welcomed a dark skinned person of Indian descent, who was born in Virginia and educated at the University of Virginia to the United States. Allen was born in California.
Allen’s exact words from the Youtube video:
QUOTE(Senator George Allen)
Welcome America and the real world of Virginia.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pL3Q9gUEvtA
Questions for Debate
1. Is Senator Allen a racist, racially insensitive, neither or both?
2. If Allen’s problems are a result of racism, does this indicate racism is alive and well in the United States?
3. Could and should Allen’s words and alleged past cost him his senate seat?
QUOTE(BoF @ Oct 1 2006, 09:44 PM) 
1. Is Senator Allen a racist, racially insensitive, neither or both?
2. If Allen’s problems are a result of racism, does this indicate racism is alive and well in the United States?
3. Could and should Allen’s words and alleged past cost him his senate seat?
1. I don't possess the ability to look into Senator Allen's heart, but it appears he has a habit of saying things that if aren't overtly racist, are obviously insensitive. For example check out this from SLATE. Choose a category from the drop-down menu and then click "Insult Me" followed by "Explain yourself, Senator."
Has George Allen insulted you?
2. That "if" is too vast to really answer. Short answer is racism is still very much alive and well in the United States. Here's the proof: The Olsen Twins of Hate
3. That's up to the voters in Virginia to decide. Currently, Allen leads his opponent by a mere four points, so he's not coasting toward reelection. I wouldn't want an overt racist to be elected to the U.S. Senate, but the Senate is already occupied by a motley crew of nitwits, half-wits and dimwits on both sides of the aisle.
What's one more bigot more or less?
1. Is Senator Allen a racist, racially insensitive, neither or both?
The macaca incident made me think that he's a dense person. That he picked on the man due to his appearance and without any other knowledge of the person signifies a lack of depth behind the thick skull. Dense + shallow = dim, and racism often accompanies such a condition.
2. If Allen’s problems are a result of racism, does this indicate racism is alive and well in the United States?
Sure. President Bush's gaff with the blind reporter shows another side of this condition.
3. Could and should Allen’s words and alleged past cost him his senate seat?
I think his current words are enough to cost him his seat. I do have some experience with Virginia, having lived there five years in the late 80s and early 90s. It's a classy state and has several distinct regions. Had the opportunity to move back to Colorado not come up, I'd still be a transplant Virginian, possibly living in the Blue Ridge mountains, my favorite area, playing that good old mountain music.
Anyway, Virginians are not dim by any measure, nor do they seem to like dimness (as I've defined). Some transplants never pick up on this, and it looks like Allen is one of these types.
The macaca incident made me think that he's a dense person. That he picked on the man due to his appearance and without any other knowledge of the person signifies a lack of depth behind the thick skull. Dense + shallow = dim, and racism often accompanies such a condition.
2. If Allen’s problems are a result of racism, does this indicate racism is alive and well in the United States?
Sure. President Bush's gaff with the blind reporter shows another side of this condition.
3. Could and should Allen’s words and alleged past cost him his senate seat?
I think his current words are enough to cost him his seat. I do have some experience with Virginia, having lived there five years in the late 80s and early 90s. It's a classy state and has several distinct regions. Had the opportunity to move back to Colorado not come up, I'd still be a transplant Virginian, possibly living in the Blue Ridge mountains, my favorite area, playing that good old mountain music.
Anyway, Virginians are not dim by any measure, nor do they seem to like dimness (as I've defined). Some transplants never pick up on this, and it looks like Allen is one of these types.
You know, the double standards that pervade society (and 
) are never ending.
For example: the SF Chronicle article begins with this phrase:
I thought macaca meant "black native of the Belgian Congo". So now black people from the Belgian Congo are the equivalent of fecal material? Funny I didn't see anyone complaining about that.
Eugene Robinson (a black man!!!!!!) gets away with what a Senator from Virginia claiming ignorance cannot get away with. You know, his mother is from Africa (you know, that very small continent.) Never mind that Tunisia is approximately 2,000 miles from the Belgian Congo. Of course she knew and hence George Allen knew (by osmosis I guess) that this was an insult. Robinson certainly by now knows what macaca allegedly means. His use of the term is outrageous (or should be if Allen's was).
I guess it's not a crime to be a hypocritical idiot.
1. Is Senator Allen a racist, racially insensitive, neither or both?
I would say "neither" or "not enough information". He was certainly never a recruiter for the KKK like his Senate colleague Robert Byrd. These incidents show nothing about the man's character.
Macaca is a slur in Italian, but it means "fool or clown" and has no racial connotations.
3. Could and should Allen’s words and alleged past cost him his senate seat?
Certainly they could. This is politics, where meaning has no meaning. Values are not valued. Messages are worthless, but attacking the messenger is. Innuendo, even if unintended, becomes fact. This has obviously already had an effect. I don't think it will cost Allen his seat, but only time (and voters) will tell.
) are never ending.For example: the SF Chronicle article begins with this phrase:
QUOTE
BOY, talk about stepping in a pile of macaca.
I thought macaca meant "black native of the Belgian Congo". So now black people from the Belgian Congo are the equivalent of fecal material? Funny I didn't see anyone complaining about that.
Eugene Robinson (a black man!!!!!!) gets away with what a Senator from Virginia claiming ignorance cannot get away with. You know, his mother is from Africa (you know, that very small continent.) Never mind that Tunisia is approximately 2,000 miles from the Belgian Congo. Of course she knew and hence George Allen knew (by osmosis I guess) that this was an insult. Robinson certainly by now knows what macaca allegedly means. His use of the term is outrageous (or should be if Allen's was).
I guess it's not a crime to be a hypocritical idiot.
1. Is Senator Allen a racist, racially insensitive, neither or both?
I would say "neither" or "not enough information". He was certainly never a recruiter for the KKK like his Senate colleague Robert Byrd. These incidents show nothing about the man's character.
Macaca is a slur in Italian, but it means "fool or clown" and has no racial connotations.
3. Could and should Allen’s words and alleged past cost him his senate seat?
Certainly they could. This is politics, where meaning has no meaning. Values are not valued. Messages are worthless, but attacking the messenger is. Innuendo, even if unintended, becomes fact. This has obviously already had an effect. I don't think it will cost Allen his seat, but only time (and voters) will tell.
nighttimer, I have to thank you for this!!!
I can't stop! My favorite insult so far, for "french" - I'm going to put this plainly, Monsieur Caca. I love Hebrew National hot dogs.
That is funny, in the kind of subtle way political jokes should be funny.
1. Is Senator Allen a racist, racially insensitive, neither or both?
I'd say racially insensitive. He doesn't really get it, and says dumb things. Kind of like when Joe Biden tries to talk about this stuff. Old white guys running for office should have their PR people write down on a card "response to any question about any interest group" - and then just repeat it over and over again. No matter what - gay, indian, black - just give the boilerplate answer. You're an out-of-touch, rich white guy. Don't say what you think, it will sound bad.
2. If Allen’s problems are a result of racism, does this indicate racism is alive and well in the United States?
Can't answer with respect to Allen. Whenever a black acquaintance mentions racism to me, I always ask when the last time someone was racist to them. Usually it's bad service in a store or restaurant. I get that all the time. I have a set of (white) friends that are racists, and it disgusts me. I have two (black) neighbors that are racists, and it disgusts me. So, yeah, it still exists. But bad retail service still irks me.
3. Could and should Allen’s words and alleged past cost him his senate seat?
Well, it certainly isn't helping him to get his message out. From the Allen campaign site.
QUOTE(nighttimer)
For example check out this from SLATE. Choose a category from the drop-down menu and then click "Insult Me" followed by "Explain yourself, Senator."
I can't stop! My favorite insult so far, for "french" - I'm going to put this plainly, Monsieur Caca. I love Hebrew National hot dogs.
That is funny, in the kind of subtle way political jokes should be funny.
1. Is Senator Allen a racist, racially insensitive, neither or both?
I'd say racially insensitive. He doesn't really get it, and says dumb things. Kind of like when Joe Biden tries to talk about this stuff. Old white guys running for office should have their PR people write down on a card "response to any question about any interest group" - and then just repeat it over and over again. No matter what - gay, indian, black - just give the boilerplate answer. You're an out-of-touch, rich white guy. Don't say what you think, it will sound bad.
2. If Allen’s problems are a result of racism, does this indicate racism is alive and well in the United States?
Can't answer with respect to Allen. Whenever a black acquaintance mentions racism to me, I always ask when the last time someone was racist to them. Usually it's bad service in a store or restaurant. I get that all the time. I have a set of (white) friends that are racists, and it disgusts me. I have two (black) neighbors that are racists, and it disgusts me. So, yeah, it still exists. But bad retail service still irks me.
3. Could and should Allen’s words and alleged past cost him his senate seat?
Well, it certainly isn't helping him to get his message out. From the Allen campaign site.
QUOTE
Stories the Washington Post has done involving ‘macaca’ in the past 60 days:
156
Stories the Washington Post has done involving George Allen’s major energy policy proposal:
1
156
Stories the Washington Post has done involving George Allen’s major energy policy proposal:
1
Amlord you have thrown a lot of leather here, only to land a glancing blow to the jaw of the aged, feeble and fading Bobby Byrd—not a Rocky Marciano knockout punch that ended a fight in the late rounds or even an Muhammad Ali “phantom” punch that dethroned George Foreman for a decade—just a glancing blow. I’ll have more to say about Byrd later.
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commen...nion-commentary
Or consider this from Meet the Press, transcript for September 17, 2006 - not terribly credible stuff from the mouth of Allen.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14815993/page/7/
I think you’ve misplaced the emphasis in your words quoted above.
Senator George Allen has given two explanations for his use of the word macaca. First he said he didn’t know what it meant.
His second explanation was that he made it up—coined the word from two existing words “Mohawk” and ‘caca.” It his were the case, then why didn’t he say mocaca? As it stands it may be that Allen was referring to the young man of Indian descent as fecal matter. People in Ohio may not know the meaning of “caca,” but a large percentage, if not a majority of those states with large Hispanic populations, know exactly what it means. It’s not something a politician - at least a smart politician who has presidential aspirations - would want to call someone with brown skin.
1. Is Senator Allen a racist, racially insensitive, neither or both?
Now about Bobby Byrd. It seems anytime a conservative gets caught with his pants down, someone finds something someone else did that was worse. Usually, it’s that old bugaboo Bill Clinton, but in this case it’s Byrd.
Yesterday on The Chris Matthews Show, Southern Belle Julia Reed argued that Byrd’s days as a Klansman could be seen as a product of the times. While I don’t endorse Byrd’s Klan membership, it means less more than half a century ago than Allen’s macaca flap a few weeks ago and his alleged use of the “N” word in the 1970s. By the time the 70s came around, the “N” word was taboo, although there is much evidence that there were still people who used it. One has only to look at the poison letters Hank Aaron received as he approached Babe Ruth’s all time homerun mark.
Note: Transcripts for Matthew’s show have been posted only through September 17th.
By the 70s, we had seen Brown v. Board (1954), Rosa Park’s refusal to give up her bus seat, sit-ins, the emergence of Martin Luther King, Jr. as a bigger household word than Spiro Agnew would ever become, the Civil Rights act of 1964 and the Voting Rights act of 1965. By the 70s, Allen has absolutely no context of time to use as CYA.
I agree with nighttimer that Allen’s fate is in the hands of Virginia voters. The race, however, may be closer than four points. A recent Mason-Dixon poll shows the race a dead heat.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15065908/
Allen may retain his senate race. I don’t know if Allen is a racist, but his insensitivity seems obvious and his return to the senate will mean more of the same class of representative who thinks he is immune to even the basic civilities demanded of the rest of us. If a teacher in FWISD said some of the things Allen said, they would be suspended without pay and/or sent off to cultural diversity training at their own expense. I see Allen as a drop of poison in the already toxic pool we call Congress. His defeat would remove at least one bit of noxious substance.
I will predict that all this means Allen will never be President of the United States. At one time he was being billed as a smoother, more articulate version of George W. Bush. Now it seems that, if such is possible, he’s just “Bus[c]h Lite.
BTW: Amlord if your definition for "macaca" - the Italian one - is correct, who better to play the clown or fool than George Allen.
QUOTE(Amlord @ Oct 2 2006, 09:52 AM)
You know, the double standards that pervade society (and ) are never ending.
For example: the SF Chronicle article begins with this phrase:
BOY, talk about stepping in a pile of macaca.
I thought macaca meant "black native of the Belgian Congo". So now black people from the Belgian Congo are the equivalent of fecal material? Funny I didn't see anyone complaining about that.
) are never ending.For example: the SF Chronicle article begins with this phrase:
BOY, talk about stepping in a pile of macaca.
I thought macaca meant "black native of the Belgian Congo". So now black people from the Belgian Congo are the equivalent of fecal material? Funny I didn't see anyone complaining about that.
QUOTE
Depending on how it is spelled, the word macaca could mean either a monkey that inhabits the Eastern Hemisphere or a town in South Africa. In some European cultures, macaca is also considered a racial slur against African immigrants, according to several Web sites that track ethnic slurs.
<snip>
Asked what macaca means, Allen said: "I don't know what it means." He said the word sounds similar to "mohawk," a term that his campaign staff had nicknamed Sidarth because of his haircut. Sidarth said his hairstyle is a mullet -- tight on top, long in the back.
<snip>
As for "macaca," Allen later explained with obvious sincerity that it was simply a made-up word. Alas, this made-up word also happens to be a slur against dark-skinned people, one common among French Tunisians, and it also happens that Allen's mother is French Tunisian, and that Allen speaks French.
<snip>
Asked what macaca means, Allen said: "I don't know what it means." He said the word sounds similar to "mohawk," a term that his campaign staff had nicknamed Sidarth because of his haircut. Sidarth said his hairstyle is a mullet -- tight on top, long in the back.
<snip>
As for "macaca," Allen later explained with obvious sincerity that it was simply a made-up word. Alas, this made-up word also happens to be a slur against dark-skinned people, one common among French Tunisians, and it also happens that Allen's mother is French Tunisian, and that Allen speaks French.
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commen...nion-commentary
Or consider this from Meet the Press, transcript for September 17, 2006 - not terribly credible stuff from the mouth of Allen.
QUOTE
MR. TIM RUSSERT: Well, where’d the word come from? It must’ve been in your consciousness.
SEN. GEORGER ALLEN: Oh, it’s just made up.
<snip>
MR. RUSSERT: You’d never heard it before?
SEN. ALLEN: Never heard it before.
SEN. GEORGER ALLEN: Oh, it’s just made up.
<snip>
MR. RUSSERT: You’d never heard it before?
SEN. ALLEN: Never heard it before.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14815993/page/7/
I think you’ve misplaced the emphasis in your words quoted above.
Senator George Allen has given two explanations for his use of the word macaca. First he said he didn’t know what it meant.
His second explanation was that he made it up—coined the word from two existing words “Mohawk” and ‘caca.” It his were the case, then why didn’t he say mocaca? As it stands it may be that Allen was referring to the young man of Indian descent as fecal matter. People in Ohio may not know the meaning of “caca,” but a large percentage, if not a majority of those states with large Hispanic populations, know exactly what it means. It’s not something a politician - at least a smart politician who has presidential aspirations - would want to call someone with brown skin.
1. Is Senator Allen a racist, racially insensitive, neither or both?
QUOTE(Amlord)
I would say "neither" or "not enough information". He was certainly never a recruiter for the KKK like his Senate colleague Robert Byrd. These incidents show nothing about the man's character.
Now about Bobby Byrd. It seems anytime a conservative gets caught with his pants down, someone finds something someone else did that was worse. Usually, it’s that old bugaboo Bill Clinton, but in this case it’s Byrd.
Yesterday on The Chris Matthews Show, Southern Belle Julia Reed argued that Byrd’s days as a Klansman could be seen as a product of the times. While I don’t endorse Byrd’s Klan membership, it means less more than half a century ago than Allen’s macaca flap a few weeks ago and his alleged use of the “N” word in the 1970s. By the time the 70s came around, the “N” word was taboo, although there is much evidence that there were still people who used it. One has only to look at the poison letters Hank Aaron received as he approached Babe Ruth’s all time homerun mark.
Note: Transcripts for Matthew’s show have been posted only through September 17th.
By the 70s, we had seen Brown v. Board (1954), Rosa Park’s refusal to give up her bus seat, sit-ins, the emergence of Martin Luther King, Jr. as a bigger household word than Spiro Agnew would ever become, the Civil Rights act of 1964 and the Voting Rights act of 1965. By the 70s, Allen has absolutely no context of time to use as CYA.
QUOTE(nightimer)
3. That's up to the voters in Virginia to decide. Currently, Allen leads his opponent by a mere four points, so he's not coasting toward reelection. I wouldn't want an overt racist to be elected to the U.S. Senate, but the Senate is already occupied by a motley crew of nitwits, half-wits and dimwits on both sides of the aisle.
I agree with nighttimer that Allen’s fate is in the hands of Virginia voters. The race, however, may be closer than four points. A recent Mason-Dixon poll shows the race a dead heat.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15065908/
Allen may retain his senate race. I don’t know if Allen is a racist, but his insensitivity seems obvious and his return to the senate will mean more of the same class of representative who thinks he is immune to even the basic civilities demanded of the rest of us. If a teacher in FWISD said some of the things Allen said, they would be suspended without pay and/or sent off to cultural diversity training at their own expense. I see Allen as a drop of poison in the already toxic pool we call Congress. His defeat would remove at least one bit of noxious substance.
I will predict that all this means Allen will never be President of the United States. At one time he was being billed as a smoother, more articulate version of George W. Bush. Now it seems that, if such is possible, he’s just “Bus[c]h Lite.
BTW: Amlord if your definition for "macaca" - the Italian one - is correct, who better to play the clown or fool than George Allen.
QUOTE(BoF @ Oct 1 2006, 09:44 PM)
Questions for Debate
1. Is Senator Allen a racist, racially insensitive, neither or both?
2. If Allen’s problems are a result of racism, does this indicate racism is alive and well in the United States?
3. Could and should Allen’s words and alleged past cost him his senate seat?
1. I've not seen any evidence that Allen is a racist. The fact of the matter is that the "n word" was very common in the 1960's and 1970's. People don't use that word anymore. We've grown up as a country, at least in most quarters. Some people cling to the past though and refuse to let it go. The ones making a big deal about Allen's young adult years and those who never cease to try to divide people along "racial" lines are the ones who require the most when it comes to growing up if you ask me.
2. I think that it's pretty tough to hold something against a guy that is over 30 years old. What is the statue of limitations on past bad behavior? Are we a society that believes in personal growth? In redemption? In enlightenment? Or, are we a "gotcha" culture where the politics of personal destruction perpetrated by political hit squads are the norm? Is there ANY evidence that Allen has behaved in racist ways or even insensitive ways in his adult years? How about as Senator?
Is racism alive and well in the United States? Absolutely and without question.
The problem is that the prime offenders of racism in the USA are it's primary former victims. The sad fact is that two wrongs don't make a right.... still, even in this day and age.
3. Could this cost him his seat? It depends. The DNC's policy of personal destruction will try to make this so and their willing accomplices in the "mainstream" media (such an oxymoron) will do their level best to promote the concept that Allen is a closet bigot while at the same time they continue to pump up the career of the West Virginia windbag, and ex KKK grand poobah, Senator Byrd. I have hope that the citizens of Virginia will see through this blatant smear campaign.
1. Is Senator Allen a racist, racially insensitive, neither or both?
How about stupid or "dumb as a box of rocks"?
2. If Allen’s problems are a result of racism, does this indicate racism is alive and well in the United States?
There is racism here, there and everywhere in our society, even though it is out of fashion now and anyone with half a brain running for office usually doesn't make those verbal gaffes. He obviously needs a handler.
3. Could and should Allen’s words and alleged past cost him his senate seat?
I don't think it should necessarily cost him his U.S. Senate seat, but it should cause voters to think twice about why they voted for him in in the first place.
What are Allen's positions on the issues?
I'm not trying to excuse Allen in any way. I don't think that Allen's comments make him any more racist than a lot of privileged, but out-of-touch rich guys who got away with saying and doing some pretty bad stuff, especially when they were of an age where Daddy could bail them out. (Picture the movie scene where Daddy is telling Junior, "Son, there are girls you party with and then there are the girls you bring home (to meet us)..." or the matriarch who blandly says to the police investigators, "But she was not our kind...")
To try to base the projected election outcome on the dumb things he has been saying is a mistake, though. (After all, look who's our current U.S. President: the son of the man the late Ann Richards said was "born with a silver foot in his mouth"!) It's time we look at the things Allen and other politicians say they stand for, and whether they have done anything for the people they are pledged to represent.
Why trivialize these races when there is so much at stake? It's like taking in "empty calories" when a good square meal is needed.
How about stupid or "dumb as a box of rocks"?
2. If Allen’s problems are a result of racism, does this indicate racism is alive and well in the United States?
There is racism here, there and everywhere in our society, even though it is out of fashion now and anyone with half a brain running for office usually doesn't make those verbal gaffes. He obviously needs a handler.
3. Could and should Allen’s words and alleged past cost him his senate seat?
I don't think it should necessarily cost him his U.S. Senate seat, but it should cause voters to think twice about why they voted for him in in the first place.
What are Allen's positions on the issues?
I'm not trying to excuse Allen in any way. I don't think that Allen's comments make him any more racist than a lot of privileged, but out-of-touch rich guys who got away with saying and doing some pretty bad stuff, especially when they were of an age where Daddy could bail them out. (Picture the movie scene where Daddy is telling Junior, "Son, there are girls you party with and then there are the girls you bring home (to meet us)..." or the matriarch who blandly says to the police investigators, "But she was not our kind...")
To try to base the projected election outcome on the dumb things he has been saying is a mistake, though. (After all, look who's our current U.S. President: the son of the man the late Ann Richards said was "born with a silver foot in his mouth"!) It's time we look at the things Allen and other politicians say they stand for, and whether they have done anything for the people they are pledged to represent.
Why trivialize these races when there is so much at stake? It's like taking in "empty calories" when a good square meal is needed.
Questions for Debate
1. Is Senator Allen a racist, racially insensitive, neither or both?
2. If Allen’s problems are a result of racism, does this indicate racism is alive and well in the United States?
3. Could and should Allen’s words and alleged past cost him his senate seat?
[/quote]
1. If the macaca thing was the only gaffgaffnew about Allen that would be the least of his problems, and I am not even from Virginia or been to there. There's the Confederate flag and figurine noose in his office while he governor of Virginia in the 90's as well as I have heard on different news programs thru the years about the n word when talking about Allen's past. Then there's also a little incident in 1996 while governor of Virginia and a photograph at a conference with Charleton Heston and 3 other people that had a display at the conference explaining what their group was about and yet Allen had no problem taking a picture with them. This is the same group that cost Senator Trent Lott his Majority Leader seat after being associated with them by talking at a conference hosted by them which several conservatives have but not out in the open. That group is known as the CCC or as the Southern Poverty Law Center refers to them as "the white-supremacist Council of Conservative Citizens".
Beyond Macaca: The Photograph That Haunts George Allen
Communing with the Council: When a race hate scandal engulfed a right-wing group in 1998, politicians ran for cover. They didn't stay away long
2. Racism is sometimes alot harder to notice as the case of the CCC from the outside but once on the radar of people it can be exposed for what it is. I love how people bring up something that happened more the half a century ago in Senator Byrd's life as an excuse to shift the topic or from who we were even talking about even though Byrd has apologized for his actions that he did. While Allen apologized after some prespressuremade up excuses that he made up the word, didn't know the mean even though his mom came from the region were the word originates from it all hurt his credibility.
1. Is Senator Allen a racist, racially insensitive, neither or both?
2. If Allen’s problems are a result of racism, does this indicate racism is alive and well in the United States?
3. Could and should Allen’s words and alleged past cost him his senate seat?
[/quote]
1. If the macaca thing was the only gaffgaffnew about Allen that would be the least of his problems, and I am not even from Virginia or been to there. There's the Confederate flag and figurine noose in his office while he governor of Virginia in the 90's as well as I have heard on different news programs thru the years about the n word when talking about Allen's past. Then there's also a little incident in 1996 while governor of Virginia and a photograph at a conference with Charleton Heston and 3 other people that had a display at the conference explaining what their group was about and yet Allen had no problem taking a picture with them. This is the same group that cost Senator Trent Lott his Majority Leader seat after being associated with them by talking at a conference hosted by them which several conservatives have but not out in the open. That group is known as the CCC or as the Southern Poverty Law Center refers to them as "the white-supremacist Council of Conservative Citizens".
Beyond Macaca: The Photograph That Haunts George Allen
Communing with the Council: When a race hate scandal engulfed a right-wing group in 1998, politicians ran for cover. They didn't stay away long
2. Racism is sometimes alot harder to notice as the case of the CCC from the outside but once on the radar of people it can be exposed for what it is. I love how people bring up something that happened more the half a century ago in Senator Byrd's life as an excuse to shift the topic or from who we were even talking about even though Byrd has apologized for his actions that he did. While Allen apologized after some prespressuremade up excuses that he made up the word, didn't know the mean even though his mom came from the region were the word originates from it all hurt his credibility.
Cadman's post does shed more light on Senator Allen's position and it does look like he is racist enough to try to benefit from organizations such as the Council of Conservative Citizens. Thank you for the link.
Talk about Senator Byrd's past (for which he has repented, yea verily, many years ago) may serve as a useful diversion to some posters, but I believe it has little bearing on the focus of this thread: Senator Allen and the insensitivity or "ignorance" of his comments.
Indeed, it is interesting that he supports veneration of the American flag while publicly calling a fellow citizens "macaca". What did he think it was? A term of endearment?
A lack of respect for people does been known to affect job performance in the private sector. Would it be different in public service?
Talk about Senator Byrd's past (for which he has repented, yea verily, many years ago) may serve as a useful diversion to some posters, but I believe it has little bearing on the focus of this thread: Senator Allen and the insensitivity or "ignorance" of his comments.
Indeed, it is interesting that he supports veneration of the American flag while publicly calling a fellow citizens "macaca". What did he think it was? A term of endearment?
A lack of respect for people does been known to affect job performance in the private sector. Would it be different in public service?
QUOTE(BoF @ Oct 2 2006, 05:54 PM)
Yesterday on The Chris Matthews Show, Southern Belle Julia Reed argued that Byrd’s days as a Klansman could be seen as a product of the times. While I don’t endorse Byrd’s Klan membership, it means less more than half a century ago than Allen’s macaca flap a few weeks ago and his alleged use of the “N” word in the 1970s. By the time the 70s came around, the “N” word was taboo, although there is much evidence that there were still people who used it. One has only to look at the poison letters Hank Aaron received as he approached Babe Ruth’s all time homerun mark.
Note: Transcripts for Matthew’s show have been posted only through September 17th.
By the 70s, we had seen Brown v. Board (1954), Rosa Park’s refusal to give up her bus seat, sit-ins, the emergence of Martin Luther King, Jr. as a bigger household word than Spiro Agnew would ever become, the Civil Rights act of 1964 and the Voting Rights act of 1965. By the 70s, Allen has absolutely no context of time to use as CYA.
Interesting enough... the race gets heated and people come forward with "hear say" about what Mr. Allen said in the 70's. I think some liberals will stoop to the deepest of awful places in order to smear someone.
Frankly, this whole notion is BOLOGNA. I don't know whether he said it or not, but his public career has never been marred with such comments. No one has recently been able to put such comment to his name at a party, in print, or on tv. Someone says that he used the "N" word in College? OH MY GOSH... STOP THE PRESSES-LIBERALS MAKE COMMENTS THAT MAY/MAY NOT BE TRUE AND CANNOT BE VERIFIED AT ALL~!!!!!.... I can't believe it... (tongue in cheek)
The truth is that even Clinton has been accused of such comments while in the Arkansas white house. (Read Dick Morris's book- remember him? Close friend? Campaign advisor?) People will say things out of anger, people will make things up, the context of conversations can be misconstrued, etc. Something that is not verifiable from 25+ years ago shouldn't be a point of contention... but to Americans and our ever growingly liberal media I suppose it is.
The word is something that peopls shouldn't advocate, but if I was a buddy of someone that held office... I'm confident that someone could make claim about stupid things we've done. Maybe being a womanizer in our younger years... maybe drinking too much and even driving, etc, etc, etc.... people also could blow it out of proportion- and heck- MAKE THINGS UP... whadda ya know... here we are.
Poison letters to Hank Aaron. Is that evidence of Allen's guilt??? Jesus Christ. Seriously. What does that have to do with Mr. Allen? The "N" word is all over popular music, are rappers biggots?? hahahaha... can I tell ya something? This is just plain malarky...
QUOTE(aevans176 @ Oct 3 2006, 09:34 AM)
Poison letters to Hank Aaron. Is that evidence of Allen's guilt??? Jesus Christ. Seriously. What does that have to do with Mr. Allen? The "N" word is all over popular music, are rappers biggots?? hahahaha... can I tell ya something? This is just plain malarky...
It might be helpful if you learned to read things in context.
The line about Aaron was meant to illustrate that despite all the advances from Brown v. Board through the Voting Rights act of 1965, the "N-word," while politically incorrect, was still much in use. It has nothing to do directly with the accusations against Allen, nor did I make that claim.
Read for yourself!
QUOTE(aevans176)
By the time the 70s came around, the “N” word was taboo, although there is much evidence that there were still people who used it. One has only to look at the poison letters Hank Aaron received as he approached Babe Ruth’s all time homerun mark.
QUOTE(Paladin Elspeth @ Oct 3 2006, 08:38 AM)
Talk about Senator Byrd's past (for which he has repented, yea verily, many years ago) may serve as a useful diversion to some posters, but I believe it has little bearing on the focus of this thread: Senator Allen and the insensitivity or "ignorance" of his comments.
Repented...riiiight.
It was 2001 when he said this on Fox News Sunday:
QUOTE
"There are white n <racial epithet>. I've seen a lot of white n <racial epithet> in my time. I'm going to use that word. We just need to work together to make our country a better country, and I'd just as soon quit talking about it so much."
Democratic Sen. Robert Byrd, Ex-Klansman
This from the "Conscience of the Senate"
In comes George Allen. He uses a word that apparently people in Africa use. He claims he doesn't know what it means and that he made it up. They called the guy Mohawk among his staffers. Allen probably really intended to say Mo-caca. Of course, that would have been worse (wouldn't it?). Of course, that would have had nothing to do with race.
Nobody has answered my question about Eugene Robinson's apparent use of this term and his emphasis on the "caca" angle. Heck, if he can use the term tongue in cheek, why can't Allen?
Edited to remove racial language.
QUOTE(Amlord @ Oct 3 2006, 09:54 AM)
Allen probably really intended to say Mo-caca. Of course, that would have been worse (wouldn't it?). Of course, that would have had nothing to do with race.
Geez, Amlord, you didn't even mention this yesterday, then I ask why Mohawk + Caca wasn't "Mocaca." Now you are saying that was what he meant to say.
Here's my observation from post #6.
QUOTE(BoF)
His second explanation was that he made it up—coined the word from two existing words “Mohawk” and ‘caca.” It his were the case, then why didn’t he say mocaca?
Robinson, like Byrd is a smokescreen. That's good though. It means you have nothing substantive with which to defend Allen, so you and others just try to keep digging up examples of something someone else has said or done.
BTW: When you provide a link to Robinson's alleged remark, someone might take you seriously enough to answer.
QUOTE(Amlord)
Eugene Robinson (a black man!!!!!!) gets away with what a Senator from Virginia claiming ignorance cannot get away with. You know, his mother is from Africa (you know, that very small continent.) Never mind that Tunisia is approximately 2,000 miles from the Belgian Congo. Of course she knew and hence George Allen knew (by osmosis I guess) that this was an insult. Robinson certainly by now knows what macaca allegedly means. His use of the term is outrageous (or should be if Allen's was).
QUOTE(BoF @ Oct 3 2006, 11:01 AM)
QUOTE(Amlord @ Oct 3 2006, 09:54 AM)
Allen probably really intended to say Mo-caca. Of course, that would have been worse (wouldn't it?). Of course, that would have had nothing to do with race.
Geez, Amlord, you didn't even mention this yesterday, then I ask why Mohawk + Caca wasn't "Mocaca." Now you are saying that was what he meant to say.
I have no idea what he meant to say. I only know what he said and how he defended it. Without a history of other racist acts, there's nothing to defend here.
QUOTE(BoF @ Oct 3 2006, 11:01 AM)
Robinson, like Byrd is a smokescreen. That's good though. It means you have nothing substantive with which to defend Allen, so you and others just try to keep digging up examples of something someone else has said or done.
BTW: When you provide a link to Robinson's alleged remark, someone might take you seriously enough to answer.
QUOTE(Amlord)
Eugene Robinson (a black man!!!!!!) gets away with what a Senator from Virginia claiming ignorance cannot get away with. You know, his mother is from Africa (you know, that very small continent.) Never mind that Tunisia is approximately 2,000 miles from the Belgian Congo. Of course she knew and hence George Allen knew (by osmosis I guess) that this was an insult. Robinson certainly by now knows what macaca allegedly means. His use of the term is outrageous (or should be if Allen's was).
The link was provided by YOU, in your opening post. I trust you read your own link: George Allen, poster boy, but for what?
QUOTE
Eugene Robinson, Washington Post Writers Group
Friday, September 29, 2006
(09-29) 04:00 PDT Washington -- BOY, talk about stepping in a pile of macaca.
Every political campaign frog-marches the candidate through a process of self-discovery, but this is getting ridiculous. U.S. Sen. George Allen, R-Va., was supposed to coast to re-election this November, then start polishing his cowboy boots for a presidential run. Instead, the political world is asking aloud whether he's remotely ready for prime time -- and the senator has got to be pondering questions of a more existential nature.
Friday, September 29, 2006
(09-29) 04:00 PDT Washington -- BOY, talk about stepping in a pile of macaca.
Every political campaign frog-marches the candidate through a process of self-discovery, but this is getting ridiculous. U.S. Sen. George Allen, R-Va., was supposed to coast to re-election this November, then start polishing his cowboy boots for a presidential run. Instead, the political world is asking aloud whether he's remotely ready for prime time -- and the senator has got to be pondering questions of a more existential nature.
In case you want evidence that Robinson is indeed a black man: Eugene Robinson. He regularly appears on MSNBC, so I'm sure you've seen him. He also associate editor of the Washington Post.
QUOTE(Amlord @ Oct 3 2006, 12:44 PM)
In case you want evidence that Robinson is indeed a black man: Eugene Robinson. He regularly appears on MSNBC, so I'm sure you've seen him. He also associate editor of the Washington Post.
I'm quite aware that Eugene Robinson, a frequent guest on Meet the Press, is black. What I don't understand is why that is important. Even if I didn't know, your use of six exclamation marks
to to emphasis (shout) it in post #4 would have been a definite clue.QUOTE(Amlord @ Oct 2 2006, 09:52 AM)
Eugene Robinson (a black man!!!!!!)
If anybody used the word "caca" to describe someone else in was Allen in connection with the young man of Indian descent.
I overlooked Robinson's name in the byline, but your question is still one of many smokescreens you've thrown up to keep from admitting that Allen may have cut his own throat.
Well if we are going to say George Allen is a racist for his remarks caught on camera. Then what can we say for Joseph Biden on his remarks regarding Indian people.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sM19YOqs7hU
Funny I didn't hear an uproar about this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sM19YOqs7hU
Funny I didn't hear an uproar about this
QUOTE(Sleeper @ Oct 3 2006, 01:25 PM)
Well if we are going to say George Allen is a racist for his remarks caught on camera. Then what can we say for Joseph Biden on his remarks regarding Indian people.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sM19YOqs7hU
Funny I didn't hear an uproar about this
Again, as on the Foley thread, we are trying to defend Allen by bringing up what someone else did. Keep in mind that Allen's insensitivity involves more than an isolated incident like "macaca." See Cadman's post.
http://www.americasdebate.com/forums/index...st&p=197615
Funny, but you could have started an uproar concerning Biden's remarks. You still can. Start your own thread on Biden.
QUOTE(Amlord @ Oct 3 2006, 10:54 AM)
QUOTE(Paladin Elspeth @ Oct 3 2006, 08:38 AM)
Talk about Senator Byrd's past (for which he has repented, yea verily, many years ago) may serve as a useful diversion to some posters, but I believe it has little bearing on the focus of this thread: Senator Allen and the insensitivity or "ignorance" of his comments.
Repented...riiiight.
It was 2001 when he said this on Fox News Sunday:
QUOTE
"There are white niggers. I've seen a lot of white niggers in my time. I'm going to use that word. We just need to work together to make our country a better country, and I'd just as soon quit talking about it so much."
Democratic Sen. Robert Byrd, Ex-Klansman
This from the "Conscience of the Senate"
Your background and mine are different, which means our experiences are as well.
When I worked as a nurse's aide in an intermediate care nursing home in Greenville, South Carolina in 1978, I worked with several black nursing assistants. It was the first time I had worked with African Americans, and I learned a lot, especially when some of the elderly residents (including black residents) called them "niggers" when they were angry at them.
Whether the elderly people got verbal responses for this depended largely upon whether they were senile or nasty to the nursing assistants, who dressed them, fed them, wiped their butts, etc. You get the picture. Most of the time, to their credit, these nursing assistants would not respond in kind. But I remember one young, attractive black woman who was just fuming after an encounter with a particularly nasty old man. When she was away from the man she said, "You know, niggers come in all colors. He's a white nigger."
What I would invite you to do, Amlord, is ask an African American you know if there are white "niggers". Chances are that you will hear that they do indeed exist and that they are well-known among African Americans. You will find that the word has connotations of behavior that used to be assumed to be a black stereotypical trait, rightly or wrongly. And while I personally do not approve of or use the word, I certainly understand what is meant when I do. It doesn't mean that someone has bleached his/her skin.
I would imagine that there were many, many black Americans who understood exactly what Senator Byrd was saying and possibly agreed with his statement, even though it was not politically correct.
At least Senator Byrd has never hidden behind the excuse that he didn't understand the words he was saying! That at least places him above Senator Allen in the honesty department.
Have you ever run for office, Amlord?
QUOTE(Paladin Elspeth @ Oct 3 2006, 02:15 PM)
I would imagine that there were many, many black Americans who understood exactly what Senator Byrd was saying and possibly agreed with his statement, even though it was not politically correct.
White N- - - - r... whatever.
How do you think people would react if George W Bush made this comment? What would the outcry be? What debate would be started about GW biggotry? Seriously.
There is a line in American culture. That line has everything to do with parlor tricks and favoring certain groups, in this case Senator Byrd and the Democrats. Most of us don't even know what macaca means, but making a "white N-" comment on TV is ok? Seriously. I'm from Shreveport Louisiana, one of the highest black (not African American... most of them are from the US) populations in the US. Race relations are really just fine. No issues. Seriously. However- I would NEVER use that word, and sure as hell can't imagine anyone I know using it on national Television. Why? It's one of those things completely socially unacceptable for a young white professional to use. Relationships with co-workers, friends, family members, etc would all be in question. A guy in a dress shirt with a college degree, and furthermore a known republican would NEVER be allowed to say that without repercussion. Mr. Allen uses a word that no one even knows the meaning of... and WHAMMO- News story. Headline News and people truly are calling him a racist. Can anyone say "double standard"?
QUOTE(aevans176 @ Oct 3 2006, 03:07 PM)
Mr. Allen uses a word that no one even knows the meaning of... and WHAMMO- News story. Headline News and people truly are calling him a racist. Can anyone say "double standard"?
In addition to the “macaca” remark, Allen also welcomed the young man with dark skin to America. Was he assuming that because the guy was of Indian descent and had dark colored skin that he must be from some place else?
The use of the word “macaca” was just the shove that opened the door.
Again, I refer you to Cadman’s well thought-out post.
http://www.americasdebate.com/forums/index...st&p=197615
QUOTE(BoF @ Oct 3 2006, 03:31 PM)
In addition to the “macaca” remark, Allen also welcomed the young man with dark skin to America. Was he assuming that because the guy was of Indian descent and had dark colored skin that he must be from some place else?
Well, since 2/3 of people with dark skin and Indian descent are indeed from somewhere else, that makes sense. link
QUOTE
The Asian born accounted for more than a quarter of the total US foreign-born population in 2000.
The number of Asian-born individuals in the United States increased 65.2 percent between 1990 and 2000.
Immigrants born in Southeastern and Eastern Asian countries accounted for most of the increase in the numbers of the Asian-born population between 1960 and 2000.
Southeastern Asians made up the largest proportion of the Asian born, followed by those from Eastern, South Central, and Western Asia.
The number of Asian-born individuals in the United States increased 65.2 percent between 1990 and 2000.
Immigrants born in Southeastern and Eastern Asian countries accounted for most of the increase in the numbers of the Asian-born population between 1960 and 2000.
Southeastern Asians made up the largest proportion of the Asian born, followed by those from Eastern, South Central, and Western Asia.
4.2% of American census-takers are Asian, meaning 12 million people. Of those 12 million, more than 8 million were born in Asia. Allen is an idiot, but what he said to Sidarth the campaign guy was not a racist remark. He had a 2 in 3 chance of being correct, just based on appearance alone. Anyway, guessing people aren't from here is racist?
QUOTE(carlitoswhey @ Oct 3 2006, 03:51 PM)
Well, since 2/3 of people with dark skin and Indian descent are indeed from somewhere else, that makes sense.
link
link
You know what carlitolswhey, statistics aside, Allen made an assumption and the assumption was wrong.
There is an old saying that when someone assumes something "they make an _ _ _ out of me and an _ _ _out you." Note: Me refers to the Indian lad; you in this instance means the person making the wrong assumption - George Allen.
Just to update. It looks like people are tired of the democrats slinging mud.
Link to story
Zogby site
Link to story
QUOTE
the latest Zogby Poll shows Republican Senator George Allen with an 11-percent lead over Democratic challenger Jim Webb - 48 to 37 percent.
Zogby site
QUOTE(Sleeper @ Oct 6 2006, 11:07 PM)
Just to update. It looks like people are tired of the democrats slinging mud.
Link to story
QUOTE
the latest Zogby Poll shows Republican Senator George Allen with an 11-percent lead over Democratic challenger Jim Webb - 48 to 37 percent.
Zogby site
An average of polls on Real Clear Politics, shows the race much slower, with Mason-Dixon calling it a toss-up.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/20...te_race-14.html
Even if Allen is ahead, you make a sophomoric intellectual mistake by assuming that correlation equals causation.
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